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Xeo
12:03 AM
getting back from this Duna trip would be awesome, but I don't think that's gonna happen with the nuclear engine...
 
Xeo
12:19 AM
Well, this is quite peculiar
losing my engine like that kinda... sucks
 
 
2 hours later…
Xeo
2:34 AM
Ho boy - that one Duna trip, with the final destination on Ike, got me over 2.5k science - without extra science tech
 
 
6 hours later…
8:11 AM
I'm back fools
 
8:22 AM
@DeadMG congrats
 
hmm
is it possible to block the materials bay if you put things on the front part that normally opens?
 
nope
the doors are purely cosmetic
just make sure you can actually access it though :P
 
I seem to have lost all my existing ship designs.
oh well
 
oh? what did you do?
 
I removed FlightEngineer when some of them had flightengineer-specific pieces added.
 
8:31 AM
@DeadMG and lost all designs, or just those that used them?
 
all of them.
that's OK though because I clearly needed a serious re-design
 
aye
 
hmm
how accurate is the engine's modelling of airflow anyway?
is it close to realistic, or just "Sum all the drag values" or something
 
The latter
Without the "or something" part, summing all the drag values is exactly what it does. :)
 
I see
so if I have a rocket shaped like a Christmas tree, it's not actually less aerodynamic than one shaped like a pencil, if it's made of identical parts
I liked Flight Engineer's data, but it was so laggy and buggy, looking at mechjeb now
 
8:56 AM
@DeadMG crude, it's a game not a simulator
actually, I think it does look at the angle wings are the direction of travel for lift. But they are not properly shaped wings, just flat slabs.
 
@DeadMG exactly
 
hm
so I swapped out multiple science containers for a transmitter and a bunch of solar panels.
my final landing/science stage now has 2628dV in vacuum.
that sound good?
 
@DeadMG prooobably
depends on where you're planning to take it, I guess
 
well
I finally realized how to rotate the landing struts.
now I can land my center rocket on either end.
I guess that actually, I'd need an engine on the top end as well to slow it down.
perhaps I should scrap that idea.
aright so according to MechJeb, I've got 10kdv, at a minimum of 2.2 TWR.
if I add a third fuel tank, I can get 11.5kdv, but my TWR is only about 1.5 at that point.
 
9:17 AM
What's TWR?
ah, thrust weight ratio or something?
 
thrust weight ratio.
 
I'd ditch the third tank then
 
hm.
needs some reaction wheels.
hmm.
what if I had fuel tanks without engines on?
 
@DeadMG They're rewriting it to be more realistic.
 
9:32 AM
@DeadMG what then?
 
@jalf Well, if you stack fuel tanks on top of each other, you can only eject them one stack at a time.
but if you stack them radially, you can eject them individually.
I think I gained a miserable maybe 100dv for that.
 
yeah, but what is the question?
remember the decouplers add weight and air drag too :)
 
@jalf Well, I was wondering whether it would be worth doing.
 
ah right
 
between the decoupler weight, and the fact that over half the dry weight of a stack is the engine
it seems like it doesn't add much.
and it seems that I only gain ~1800 dv for a three-stage booster compared to a two-stage.
 
9:36 AM
hmm, interesting
is there a mod that just tells you stuff like dv and twr, without doing much anything else?
 
that's 9800 dv to 11500 dv
@jalf You can use MechJeb. It has many components, but the DV/orbital/surface stats are the only ones I'm interested in.
 
@DeadMG 1800 is still a significant chunk. Consider that a lot of your dv is going to be spent just getting away from kerbin. Once out where the difference actually matters, you're left with a much smaller pool, where an additional 1800 might be a big difference
 
Xeo
@DeadMG That's ~17%! That's not "only"
 
lol
 
Xeo
 
9:39 AM
yeah, but the quantity I expend getting into orbit concerns me.
 
Xeo
Same.
 
by the time I made it to orbit, I'd lost all of my outer ring and two of my inner ring.
 
@Xeo ... the fuck? :D
 
@Xeo Is that a Borg cube?
 
Xeo
I got a nice rocket that got me to Duna and let me land on Ike, but the biggest part of it was already gone when I got out into Kerbin orbit IIRC
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm not totally sure
It's something
 
9:40 AM
@DeadMG but then all the hard work is done too
 
@DeadMG I expend almost everything but a small tank and an efficient engine to orbit.
With that I can go places.
 
well
I'm going to go and launch myself into orbit and see how much the new design consumes.
hopefully it'll be a lot less than its predecessor.
 
Plus, it's easier to maneuver if you have less mass.
 
with an optimal ascent, you need around 5k dv just to make it to orbit. After that, everything is a piece of cake
 
Xeo
// A = pod, | = T800 tank, 1st ^ = Nuclear engine, H = R32 tank, other ^ = Skipper
 A
 |
 ^
HHH
HHH
^^^
 
9:44 AM
hmm
 
Xeo
That's my current rocket
 
I heard that for some rocket designs, maximal thrust isn't the most effective way to boost into orbit
 
Xeo
with essentially 6-way symmetry on the R32 tanks and skippers, but asparagus staging
 
@Xeo How big is the payload?
 
Xeo
no clue
 
9:44 AM
@Xeo Meh, asparagus is no fun.
(And won't even be effective when the aerodynamics kick in)
 
@Xeo I've been thinking about replacing the lv909 I'm using now on my lander stage with an atomic.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG It's just so damn efficient
 
but the atomic is too large for me to land on and the lv909 isn't.
 
Xeo
You might have to do 2minute burns, but you can do those 2 minute burns without problem
 
I'd have to make it land on the other end, and probably still have an lv909 there for landing on.
 
9:45 AM
@Xeo Well, that's what matters. It's a lot easier to put a Stayputnik in orbit than a command pod (one is about 40x as heavy)
 
Xeo
@DeadMG uh, attach landers on the atomic? :P
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh wow
 
@Xeo What, and blow the atomic when it comes time to land?
 
Xeo
huh?
 
or are you suggesting a "Leave the atomic in orbit" kind of design?
 
Xeo
no
just land with the atomic attached
and have landing struts that low
 
9:47 AM
what, use some girders or something to place them lower than the atomic?
 
Xeo
@DeadMG You do know they extend, right?
 
not the ones I have.
 
Xeo
wtf
get other ones, then
 
which ones are you using?
 
Xeo
the first ones you get
 
9:48 AM
oh, these ones do extend.
odd the things you find out by randomly right clicking on your parts.
 
Xeo
click the "gears" button twice
extends all of them
instead of only the ones in symmetry with the one you clicked (maybe its not even that)
 
oh
I never knew what that button did.
 
Actions groups are nice.
 
Xeo
9 hours ago, by Xeo
user image
 
9:49 AM
no wonder I had such issue landing.
 
@Xeo AFAIK symmetry matters not. Right-clicking changes only one.
 
Xeo
This was still painful
damn atomic engine just fell off when I landed with ~0.5m/s
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh, ok
> You can perform this action again in 3 seconds
 
80k apoapsis, 8.5kdv remaining.
 
Xeo
Fuck you chat, stop throttling me down so much
 
lets just boost into solar orbit instead of trying for a gravity assist
 
Xeo
9:50 AM
I used a Mun-induced slingshot for solar-orbit
 
@Xeo afaik landing gear just starts with their "extended" bit set, but without actually being extended. So push once to clear the bit and properly retract them, then second time to extend again
 
Xeo
didn't help much, from what I could tell
 
yeah, but I honestly don't know how to do that reliably.
 
Xeo
Duna trip was fun, though
 
@Xeo You can get some ridiculously good assists.
 
Xeo
9:51 AM
so much science
> You can perform this action again in 6 seconds
 
I did it first time I went into solar orbit, spent 0 fuel getting into solar orbit.
 
Xeo
AJGHPUAGHPAHGH
@DeadMG You spent fuel to get the slingshot, though :P
 
yeah, but it was no more than a Kerbin orbit widened to include part of Mun orbit.
 
@Xeo That's aiming, not ascending.
 
I didn't even circularise.
 
9:53 AM
Though it's easy enough to go solar without assists. I just fire everything I got when I'm pushing to orbit and keep it firing.
 
aw cock I put my middle engine on the wrong stage.
 
Xeo
oops
 
was wondering why the orbit failed.
 
Xeo
Btw
I can unlock ion engine now
 
huh.
how can I lose 1000dv by firing the engine earlier?
 
Xeo
9:54 AM
And damn they're fucking weak
 
this doesn't make sense to me.
 
@Xeo But they're nigh-infinite :)
 
Xeo
But 0.5 max thrust :(
Maybe for satellites
 
maybe MechJeb is just wrong.
or maybe there's some aspect of saving that engine for later which I simply don't understand.
 
Xeo
The closer you are to a gravity well, the less effective they are, no?
 
9:57 AM
true.
 
@Xeo There's a reason they are in "utility", not "propulsion".
 
but if you fire more engines, you escape from the gravity well faster.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh, I didn't actually unlock them yet
I can just see them in the tech tree
But good to know
 
They're great to tune orbits. And you can also use them for interplanetary travel, though it takes longer.
 
maybe it's an air resistance thing.
that the fuel I would otherwise burn is basically just wasted because of air resistance.
 
Xeo
9:59 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I guess burns of several weeks are common then ? :P
 
You can get like an hour of thrust with one single xenon container.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG Oh, I thought you already were at 80k
@R.MartinhoFernandes hmm
The small or big one?
 
no
 
Small, I think.
 
I'm looking at this because my orbit failed.
 
10:00 AM
@DeadMG yeah, you need to limit your speed while in atmosphere
 
Xeo
Yeah, definitly drag then
 
I set my apo to 80k and then burned 90 degrees as soon as I hit 70k
just like normal.
 
as a simple rule of thumb, 100-110 m/s at 1km altitude, 200-220 m/s at 10km altitude. After that, just do a full burn
That's not optimal, but it's decent, and it's simple enough for me to remember :p
 
but then the orbit failed- my periapsis went down to about 25km
and I was like "Wut", until I noticed the centre engine wasn't firing.
 
Xeo
dead weight is evil
 
10:01 AM
you can check the exact optimal velocities on the wiki, but then you have to cross-check the table all the time :p
 
so
 
@jalf Post-its on the screen!
 
set my apoapsis to 80k, then enable the center engine, then do 90 degree burn in orbit.
 
(No, I don't do that; I eyeball most things)
 
this should get me the best of both worlds?
 
Xeo
10:02 AM
I find 90 degree burns meh
 
hm
I also went from 8.4 tons of reaction wheel/etc to 0.4 tons /yay
 
O.o
 
Holy fuck what
 
well, my first experiment with the twelve-booster engine was that it was hideously unstable, so I slapped on reaction wheels until it worked.
turns out that adding struts is way better since they are free.
 
Xeo
ow
 
10:05 AM
and also the ASAS module is 0.2 tons for the same torque compared to the 0.3 tons for reaction wheel.
 
Xeo
I only have 8 engines on my current rocket
 
lol, puppy only builds monsters.
 
Xeo
6 for boost out of orbit, one skipper + 2x R32 tank for going whereever I want
and the atomic for whatever
 
@Xeo I have a 14-engine right now.
 
Xeo
btw, I killed poor Jeb on Ike
 
10:06 AM
looks like 12 for boosting into orbit, 13th for in-orbit, and the 14th is the 909 for the lander.
 
Xeo
Was trying to get to the dark spots on it for different soil sample
 
might replace 13th with an atomic.
 
Xeo
crashed right into the ground :D
I always had the feeling they just skip along after crashing, but it appears they can die from impact too
 
whoah.
 
@Xeo I killed him coming back from Mun by landing in the mountains of Kerbin :S
 
10:07 AM
replace center engine with an atomic -> gain 2500dv.
 
Ship just rolled down until it finally exploded.
 
Xeo
With the jetpack, mind you
@DeadMG Atomic is beautiful for space
 
@Xeo oh, they can definitely die from impact :p
 
yeah
 
Xeo
I'm considering switching from T800 tank to either R32 or 2xR32
 
10:07 AM
terrible TWR though.
 
Xeo
So that I can literally burn for weeks
 
now the center engine has only 0.83 TWR.
at max
I think I'd need a higher apop to get into the orbit I want from Kerbin, which would mean longer burns from the other engines.
 
Xeo
wow
 
@Xeo btw, the T800 is equal to the thin fat one.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes The R32 isn't the smallest, though
 
10:09 AM
Except longer and requires adapters.
 
also the atomic engine is too big to sit at the center unless I lower the externals.
and that would mean rebuilding all the fucking fuel lines.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes not for atomic
or did you mean the Rockomax one requires adapters?
 
ok, I think I have a more serious problem.
the Load button just doesn't work anymore.
I mean, I can see the saved .craft files.
 
@Xeo linked to that earlier
@dead have you not got the supports?
@Xeo you do not have to use adapters
 
@thecoshman Which supports?
 
10:15 AM
@DeadMG towers that can hold your rocket up at launch
 
ah, yes, I do, but I never found them to be useful
 
@DeadMG they would seem to be useful if youv'e got an atomic engine poking out at the bottom so the rocket can't rest on itself :p
 
lol
 
Have a support tower hold it, fire engine, release supports
 
says here I'm in orbit around Kerbin with 5100 dv left.
 
10:21 AM
@DeadMG and are you actually in orbit? :p
 
yep.
let's see if we can get a gravity assist from the Mun.
why waste my own perfectly good fuel burning into solar orbit.
hmm
apparently, I can expend 2.8m/s dv to get into an encounter with Mun that will send me out of Kerbin's SoI.
 
@DeadMG sounds decent :p
as long as it actually flings you in the right direction I guess :)
 
hmmm.
I think I fucked up my fuel lines.
apparently my central tanks are nearly running out of fuel, whilst my side tanks have plenty.
 
@DeadMG you can right click on individual tanks to toggle their fuel flow, if you want
 
turns out I forgot to connect them, whoops.
 
10:26 AM
lol
 
now, much more sensibly, I don't lose a scrap of dv for firing my main engine with all the others.
 
Xeo
lol
 
that should probably have been a hint.
hmm.
I'm going to guess that TWR is with all fuel tanks full, and Max TWR is with all fuel tanks empty.
 
Xeo
Not going to have much thrust if you have no fuel, no?
 
true.
perhaps I should say, "With approaching-but-not-zero fuel".
 
10:34 AM
@DeadMG ... you've always thought it a good idea to have 100T of rocket sitting on it's own engines?
 
@thecoshman As long as the engines can take it, why not? It's simpler :)
 
@thecoshman 76T right now, and it does sit on its own engines just fine.
 
@jalf looks derpy, and for me at least, can often lead to the engine breaking off :(
 
Xeo
@jalf The worst thing is if you fuck up the staging with those
 
@Xeo Yeah, you find out immediately :P
 
Xeo
10:35 AM
"Throttle up... engines on... LAUNCH!"
"Hey, why isn't it .. oh."
 
ok
 
@Xeo yeah exactly, my staging is complex enough without introducing unnecessary components
 
can't click the launch pad either.
 
Xeo
@jalf Well, they just need to be on the bottom-most stage
 
so I have my nice shiny new rocket, but I can't load it in the VAB or launch it from the pad.
 
Xeo
10:36 AM
@DeadMG you fucked up, buddy
 
I always fuck up the supports.
 
have anyone experimented with spaceplanes at all so far?
 
Xeo
nope
 
If you attach the supports to the upper parts of the rocket, the game with schedule them for the upper stages.
 
Xeo
also not with rovers
 
10:36 AM
Which makes zero sense.
 
it probably won't load because one of the designs uses a part that's for a mod I deleted.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes mh
 
so I figure I'll just delete them.
 
I always forget to fix that, and it has resulted in many a rocket self-destructing itself on the platform when the lower stages just ram through the upper stages.
 
Xeo
I'm wondering about going back to Mun and Minmus with all the extra science toys equipment.
 
10:37 AM
One or two times the kerbals actually survived.
 
yep that worked.
@Xeo Most of them don't function in atmosphere so you can't get much out of it.
 
Xeo
huh?
 
I mean
out of atmosphere.
 
Xeo
wut
 
the wiki page says that the thermo and the barometer don't give you science when used in a vacuum.
 
Xeo
10:40 AM
hm
 
that's basically everywhere except Kerbin and, I think it's Jool
 
Xeo
Duna and Eve also have atmospheres
and a low orbit (<40k) can get you in Duna atmosphere without actually aerobraking
 
hm not bad.
but you won't get more from taking them to Mun or Minmus.
at least afaik
 
Xeo
But there's more than thermo- and barometer
 
whoops, I accidentally blew off my primary rocket as well as my last set of boosters.
still, my measurement was about 5.5kdv to get into Mun's orbit with my 90 degrees at 70k strategy.
time to try that 45 degrees at 10k strategy.
ISTR trying that when I first tried to get into orbit but didn't have much success with it
 
10:48 AM
@DeadMG it is much closer to being optimal
 
@DeadMG What were you doing so far?
 
Xeo
I wish you could plan maneuvers ahead for more than one orbit
 
I mix the two.
@Xeo I wish planned maneuvers would remain if you switch crafts.
@DeadMG How do you get to 70k in the first place? Just pure unadulterated ascent?
 
Xeo
Moar thrust!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah.
 
10:52 AM
@Xeo Yesterday I was trying to fly several crafts at once to different bodies, and all my planned maneuvers were lost whenever I switched between them :S
 
straight up till about 80k
 
then 90 degrees east at 70k.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes :(
 
of course
I forgot to ditch a stage, so the results became incomparable unfortunately.
 
10:53 AM
@DeadMG You should get more horizontal velocity before that (hence the 45 degree turn).
 
Xeo
A gravity turn is not your thing, eh?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes or eva, or more do more or less anything else
@DeadMG dude! gravity turn
 
@thecoshman I think I start to understand why he builds those monsters of his.
 
hmm.
I didn't really get a more solid result with this one.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes apparently so
 
10:59 AM
I've got 5.9kdv left- so about 5.6kdv expended.
 

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