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2:06 PM
I have GREAT news everyone
 
Yes?
 
I was just at a meeting with two professors at the university
They'd like to see a Rebol parser written in JS, embeddable in web apps.
This means instead of using regular expressions to parse stuff in JS one will be able to use Rebol
They'll allocate students and resources to develop it, everything will be released free and open source :)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum maybe they should just collaborate with Gabriele to further advance topaz?
 
Sounds good. They may want to take a look at Topaz as it has parse implemented already in JS.
 
That's interesting :)
seems like it wasn't updated in a long while
 
2:13 PM
Maybe Gabriele has a newer version, I don't know what he's working on now.
 
How can I contact him?
 
Aarrrrgh I wake up and more Topaz.
NO MORE TOPAZ.
Red backend to JS.
Haven't I already said this?
 
@HostileFork I need a few examples where Rebol parse is easier than RegExp, I'm sure you know some :)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum @rgchris is your man for that. I mean, I can give you some sure, but you really should talk to the experts about that not me.
 
2:23 PM
@HostileFork What did I miss?
 
Rebol parse email?
(Not built in)
 
there's an email! type.
 
2 mins ago, by Benjamin Gruenbaum
(Not built in)
 
:takes swig of coffee, waits for it to kick in
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum For short sequences like email or URL, Regexp code will be shorter than Parse. True power of parse is in creating special purpose dialects.
 
2:30 PM
I don't care about shorter, I want more readable
Email in RegExp is horrible
"(?:[a-z0-9!#$%&'+/=?^_`{|}~-]+(?:\.[a-z0-9!#$%&'*+/=?^_`{|}~-]+)*|"(?:[\x01-\x08\x0b\x0c\x0e-\x1f\x21\x23-\x5b\x5d-\x7f]|\[\x01-\x09\x0b\x0c\x0e-\x7f])")@(?:(?:[a-z0-9](?:[a-z0-9-]*[a-z0-9])?\.)+[a-z0-9](?:[a-z0-9-]*[a-z0-9])?|[(?:(?:25[0-5]|2[0-4][0-9]|[01]?[0-9][0-9]?)\.){3}(?:25[0-5]|2[0-4][0-9]|[01]?[0-9][0-9]?|[a-z0-9-]*[a-z0-9]:(?:[\x01-\x08\x0b\x0c\x0e-\x1f\x21-\x5a\x53-\x7f]|\[\x01-\x09\x0b\x0c\x0e-\x7f])+)])"
Noone can read that
 
Oh. That's really terrible.
 
2:47 PM
@SomeKittens It's 8am, I don't know. I'm still waking up. :-)
And there's RegEx line noise being posted and I'm having seizures
 
Not optimised, not geared for any practical use, but here's a CSS Parser. (I noticed at least one 'wtf' in the source, so ymmv)
If I recall, I got to matching the majority of the language, and that's about it.
 
@DocKimbel Did you read this answer it is my attempt to take comments out of the Red pull request and put them in a better place.
 
@HostileFork What's this Topaz?
 
@SomeKittens There is no Topaz. unset 'topaz
 
Try it, but don't use it: reb4.me/tt
 
2:54 PM
@SomeKittens: Topaz is Rebol-like language written in JS, that @HostileFork hates from an unknown reason.
 
so it's the jQuery of this room?
 
I don't think so, almost nobody uses it.
 
@SomeKittens No, it's an incomplete implementation of Rebol in Javascript.
 
@SomeKittens It's something you should not use in any deployment because, if anything, we need a repl.it Rebol (coming soon) and a JavaScript backend for Red (coming a bit later). Topaz is too off the cuff, and it fragments our work.
Written by a Rebol celebrity, basically, but he should know better than to advertise it.
And create another brand.
We have trouble enough!
 
@HostileFork Yes I have. You keep pointing me at that page, is there some kind of hidden message there? (Sorry, but I'm focused on Red coding, I don't have any spare brain cycles available for puzzles). ;-)
 
2:58 PM
@HostileFork Javascript as the backend for something? What?!?
 
@DocKimbel Oh, I just mean that strings in your test suite for unicode like "^(70)^(80)^(70)" are different in R2 than R3, and R3 is right...
@DocKimbel I can twist Red/System so codepoints are written out as bytes if you want, but that's not going to be a good answer long term.
 
@HostileFork I told you that those tests were written by Peter WA Wood, you should send him the link to the SO answer. IIRC, Peter was trying to test UTF-8 sequences loading using such kind of construct, those bytes shouldn't be codepoints.
 
@DocKimbel Well, you guys have been riding on the dependency of R2 just passing bytes through and your Hello World and otherwise are using the precise bad behavior my message points out, which is fine, except it's not fine if you're trying to be correct about it. :-)
@DocKimbel I just use LOAD on the data in Red/System now, not as binary... just plain old LOAD.
You're only a step away from Unicode support in Red/System :-)
But how you're doing strings now is not right...
 
@HostileFork You mean one step away from UTF-8 support in Red/System. Full Red-compatible Unicode support will be much harder to handle as Red/System code can be written embedded in a Red script.
 
@DocKimbel I don't really see it as being so far off. It's almost done.
Yes, there are details.
 
3:07 PM
I'm having a look at %unicode-test.reds, I can assure you that those are bytes, not Unicode codepoints, so the ^(xx) notation is fine.
 
@DocKimbel Yes I know they're bytes, but R3 doesn't see it that way in LOAD
As far as R3 is concerned those are codepoints. :-/
 
@HostileFork R3 is doing its own interpretation of the input in a not compatible with R2 way. Both are legitimate, but have different assumptions on the meaning of the ^(...) notation.
 
@DocKimbel Well the issue is about TO BINARY! and in that case I think it is R3 that is more forward looking.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum in addition to the CSS parser, see this message from yesterday (fairly succinct way to grab some links from a page). It's subjective though: I wrote a short parse rule to a hypothetical language that while you could write in Regex, I don't know it'd be any more elegant...
 
@HostileFork You should know that Red/System has no support for a binary! input format, so currently, the way Peter wrote it the only way. It's not related to R2/R3.
 
3:18 PM
@DocKimbel Well you just have to take all codepoints <= 255 and write them as bytes, it's not that hard. :-)
But still, incorrect.
 
3:46 PM
@HostileFork These tests are meant to test the UTF-8 Red loader, input is made of bytes, again, not codepoints. We don't have byte sequences literals, only c-string! literals. Using a c-string! is far easier and shorter to write/read than any other option in Red/System. Also, using literal c-string!, we get the NUL terminal character for free. If you have a better option for writing those tests, please propose it.
 
4:08 PM
@DocKimbel I just mean that TO BINARY! cannot be used. :-) My better proposal is to use Unicode when you want strings, and use BINARY! when you want bytes that is all.
^(80) is not #{80}, basically.
But that's how your code is written currently.
It's totally fixable, no reason to stress.
 
4:43 PM
@HostileFork use BINARY! when you want bytes ...we don't have BINARY! support in Red/System. :-)
 
@DocKimbel Yet. :-) Hence your codepoints in strings must be transliterated into their corresponding bytes, not UTF-8
 
^stumbled across that, thought it belonged here
 
@SomeKittens Hehe, that's old school, Gregg and Douglas. :-)
Belongs in a museum somewhere.
 
I know someone was asking for proof that DC was interested in Rebol
 
@SomeKittens Uh, he talks about it a lot. Like, on video and stuff.
There's videographic evidence. :-)
@SomeKittens He had a post on Google+ when the open sourcing was announced, go look it up. "It has been a long time since I have written in REBOL, but I continue to admire the language and appreciate the things it taught me. JSON would not have happened if REBOL had not prepared me to recognize it."
Also Yukihiro Matsumoto tweeted about the Rebol open sourcing. So we're fringe here, but not unknown.
We're "those guys over there"
"Love your language, don't have time now, call me when it's finished." Well, that call might come.
And it might come from Doc. :-/
 
KK.
4:58 PM
I think, like businessmen who need to keep up with competitors, language implementors keep track of other languages, without as much competitive spirit.
 
@SomeKittens Feel free to colour code: reb4.me/cc?s=http://json.org/json.r
(so far hasn't killed my server stats :)
 
@rgchris It's so pretty! :-)
 
Thks :)
 
My confidence in wanting to kill TO-CHAR and TO-INTEGER gets stronger by the day. Death to these abominations in for-real-R3.
 
I still think when it comes to it, Rebol is the format that'll endure. Json is a stop-gap.
 
5:04 PM
I will wait to pick up that crusade until I get my FUNCTION wish :-)
 
Json was a pragmatic/lazy implementation of Rebol.
(not to deny a genius in that pragmatism—do define it in such a universal way was brilliant and has saved us from XML :)
 
posted on February 28, 2013 by DideC

[Comment] /utc: I was confused by R2. I like the 'pick proposal as it's very easy for those who want to make the *-of functions then :-)

 
@HostileFork snuff that. They may end up being an option (selected by default in the main interpreter) but they won't be gone altogether. A lot of people use them. We're trying to make it possible to have a minimalist R3, but it won't by default be minimalist because most Rebol fans are maximalists. The "it can do everything but it's so tiny!" draw that R2 had is too strong for some.
R3 is a construction kit that can build interpreters, among other things, and we want some of those things to be minimalist. The main prebuilt interpreter won't be minimalist though (except perhaps with a --boot setting). People use that interpreter to get ad-hoc things done, so they need to have their tools at hand.
We always have to balance the interests of the minimalists and the maximalists, as those interests are in conflict. Which is why we have modules, with an export model that supports use by people who don't understand modules (and also supports people who do).
The mezzanines themselves should be written in a minimalist way though, since that lets us make more and more of the language optional. For instance, if you see a mezzanine written to use any to-* type conversion function instead of to directly, that's a bug, and fixing that isn't code churn.
 
5:39 PM
@SomeKittens Just to be clear, I was not doubting/asking for proof that Crockford was interested in Rebol, I have my own first-hand evidence on that (talked with him about it a few years ago). I was just genuinely curious if there was anything public re Crockford's intentions for a Rebol clone.
 
Ok, thanks for clearing that up
 
 
2 hours later…
7:14 PM
@rebolbot /k
 
@GrahamChiu I know the following keys: help tutorial Devcon HaikuOS Altjson AltXML Colouriser Saphir droid About
 
@RebolBot /h
 
I know these other commands:
/k "returns known keys"
/rm key "removes key (authorised user)"
/s key [string!] description [string!] link [url!] "save key with description and link"
/x value "evaluates a Rebol value in a sandboxed interpreter"
 
@HostileFork Are we talking about %unicode-test.reds or something else? In that test file, the byte sequences encoded in c-string literals represent UTF-8 input sequences. The transliteration is a trivial operation that we get for free with R2 (just using LOAD). R3 is not compatible with that model, hence your issues with porting the code to it.
Even if we add Unicode strings in Red/System at some point, c-string! will stay as we need it to interface with the rest of the non-Unicode computing world.
 
7:35 PM
@GrahamChiu, could the keys be sorted alphabetically? I can see it becoming hard to find something at a glance when there will be a few more.
 
@RebolBot /x print 662.66 + 617.90 + 623.49
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print 662.66 + 617.90 + 623.49
1904.05
 
I see you lowered the response time. What is it set to now?
Or is it just that you asked right at the end of the 30s?
 
set to 15 seconds as long as my laptop is on :)
@RebolBot /k
 
@GrahamChiu I know the following keys: About Altjson AltXML Colouriser Devcon droid HaikuOS help Saphir tutorial
 
7:38 PM
maybe capitalize them too, just to make consistent
 
@GrahamChiu you might consider having /? be a synonym for /h. The main platform where they have /x commands is Windows/DOS, and the convention there is to use /? for that kind of thing. It's more likely to be tried first.
 
@RebolBot /?
 
I know these other commands:
/k "returns known keys"
/rm key "removes key (authorised user)"
/s key [string!] description [string!] link [url!] "save key with description and link"
/x value "evaluates a Rebol value in a sandboxed interpreter"
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum this is realy great news! Please keep the group informed of any developments.
 
but now I'll have to add /h /? to the list of commands returned :(
 
7:40 PM
@Adrian consistency is overrated, and at odds with the established writing conventions. Nonetheless, if you want them listed consistently make them lowercase, it's easier on the eyes.
 
Sure, didn't mean to say Uppercase first letter is better since I'd actually prefer lower case.
And I think some categorization, once there are more than a couple of dozen, might be good. It's just little things that cut down on noise and help you figure out what you want more quickly.
Trying to find a command among 50 with no apparent grouping would require more effort than you'd want.
@BrianH Are you saying that randomness is preferable? :-)
 
8:09 PM
We're having some discussion about scheduling and organizing Rebol Language Family Devcons in AltME. One of the questions is, should JSON be considered part of the Rebol Language Family? Maybe like a shoestring cousin?
 
@Adrian the question with consistency is deciding what you want to be consistent with. For HaikuOS or AltXML, that spelling is consistent with references to the products elsewhere. Internal consistency might not be as important as external consistency.
 
I want consistency for the immediate task of picking a word out of a whole bunch of other ones as quickly as possible. That's the goal of any presentation changes to the bot's output, I would think.
Whatever makes that happen in a quicker, more informed way is 'better'.
 
0
Q: What is are the 'context' and 'object' functions in Rebol different, but essentially the same?

AdrianOn the one hand we have: >> source object object: make function! [[ "Defines a unique object." blk [block!] "Object words and values." ][ make object! append blk none ]] For context we see: >> source context context: make function! [[ "Defines a unique object." ...

 
Ack - messed up title
@RebolBot /s codeblocks "Code::Blocks IDE project file for Rebol 3" github.com/asampal/CodeBlocks-Rebol
For anyone wanting an easy setup to debug and browse the C source of Rebol 3, hit the bot with key 'codeblocks'
 
8:37 PM
@Respectech Douglas Crockford describes REBOL as one of the influences on JSON (and as a "Brilliant language") - see 20mins into this video youtube.com/watch?v=-C-JoyNuQJs - I think we should trade on that family connection and endorsement :)
 
@Sunanda maybe we can convince him to visit a N.CA ReCon.
@Sunanda would you like me to adjust the code examples in issue.cc/r3/1975 ? I think it might be related to issue.cc/r3/1976 too.
 
@BrianH Please adjust anything you like if it helps make it easier for whoever will be fixing the code. Thanks for asking.
 
@Sunanda I'll leave some variant of that comment there for others to read, since it might help them make better code examples in their own tickets :)
 
8:57 PM
@Sunanda Agreed
 
@Sunanda We should have a clip where Douglas mentions Rebol here, at hand
@RebolBot /s "crockford" "Douglas Crockford on JSON's influences" youtube.com/…
That will bring up the video at the point where Rebol is mentioned.
 
(Also linked to the offset :)
 
@RebolBot crockford
 
0
A: Why are the 'context' and 'object' functions in Rebol different, but essentially the same?

BrianHBackwards compatibility. We had a context function already in Rebol that worked a particular way (not initializing variables), but we needed a function that initialized variables to none, as a convenience function when creating objects as data structures rather than as code containers. It made ...

 
9:10 PM
@Adrian add a rebol3 tag to your last question linked by Feeds above. That is where we introduced object.
 
k, thanks
 
posted on February 28, 2013 by abolka

[Comment] Don't know how this got sidetracked into IPv6, but: IPv6 address literals won't come so easy, they are in latent conflict with the current url! and get-word! syntax: a::b is a valid IPv6 address, but is currently a valid url!; ::a is a valid IPv6 address, but currently a valid get-word!. As IPv6 addresses have other intricacies, I would suggest to not attempt to model them as literal

 
9:37 PM
posted on February 28, 2013 by BrianH

[Comment] It's an issue ticket, those tend to go down interesting paths, though in this case you started it in your ticket description. :) Good suggestion though, especially since that can be implemented as a port scheme instead of as a datatype. A native scheme can even be integrated into the tcp:// and udp:// schemes when needed. You have my support if you create the ticket.

 
@BrianH wasn't my ticket :)
 
Will adjust my comment accordingly, thanks.
 
np :)
 
Fixed :)
 
 
1 hour later…
10:54 PM
@RebolBot /s xmlflawed "Was XML Flawed from the Start?" rebol.com/article/0108.html
@RebolBot xmlflawed
 
@HostileFork sorry - not in my current repetoire. Try /h for help
 
@RebolBot /k
 
@HostileFork I know the following keys: About Altjson AltXML Colouriser crockford Devcon droid HaikuOS help Saphir tutorial
 
Hrrrm.
 
Guess you haven't been added to the submitter list yet.
 
10:56 PM
the keyword is a string!
 
@RebolBot /s "xmlflawed" "Was XML Flawed from the Start?" rebol.com/article/0108.html
@RebolBot /k
 
@HostileFork I know the following keys: About Altjson AltXML Colouriser crockford Devcon droid HaikuOS help Saphir tutorial
 
hmm, only shows one line/
@RebolBot xmlflawed
 
@Adrian sorry - not in my current repetoire. Try /h for help
 
bug?
 
10:59 PM
maybe because you tried the first set with wrong args, @HostileFork
could be it buggered something up?
 
@RebolBot /s "xmlflawed" "Was XML Flawed from the Start?" rebol.com/article/0108.html
@RebolBot /k
 
He's dead?
 
@GrahamChiu I know the following keys: About Altjson AltXML Colouriser crockford Devcon droid HaikuOS help Saphir tutorial xmlflawed
 
@Adrian she's alive
@RebolBot xmlflawedforever and a day
 
11:06 PM
@GrahamChiu, do you think you could add a listener for commands or would that add too much code (if you're trying to make a point with brevity)?
 
@Adrian what do you mean?
 
Just thinking that in a more interactive session, you want near instant response, so having a userscript that sent the bot the commands directly (instead of having the bot checking every whatever seconds), might be useful in giving you that quick feedback.
so this userscript would send the same JSON you look for
Or maybe the actual command so you don't need to do anything up to that point.
 
posted on February 28, 2013 by DideC

[Comment] Javascript has Date.toISOString() to form the date with T and Z. Yes I know, it's not an argument. Using ISO in the name would sounds good as it is already used in other languages.

 
@Adrian that implies some JS running in a browser??
 
Yes, for those who want the faster interaction. Just a short userscript.
Actually it could piggyback off the chat modification script since that allows for plugins.
 
11:12 PM
That does make it possible to run scripts without the SO chat screening process. (Not a good thing.)
 
of course if you want rapid interaction you could download a binary!
What do the other bots do? Run in browser and react ASAP?
 
Sure, but the medium of interactive collaboration is part of what we're going for, no?
yes, usually they do
 
What's the allowed polling frequency?
 
There's no issue since it's just JS listening to events like text being entered in an input.
or listening for a DOM update
 
I mean for non browser bots
 
11:15 PM
@BrianH what chat screening process?
 
Oh, I thought you were talking about user scripts being able to send commands to a bot directly. If those scripts require SO authentication then it's not a problem. If not, it's a great DDOS tool.
 
I don't know how non-browser bots interact.
If I recall correctly SO has a limit to API calls that's pretty low. With chat, there's no API yet so the chat mod script, for example, does things by unofficial means.
I wonder if the bot will run into limits if used frequently enough. Not sure if SO monitors REST access from non-SO-chat clients to limit number of calls.
 
@Adrian how can they tell it's a bot?
We’re sorry… This IP is only allowed to access our API. To protect our users, we can’t process requests from this IP address. If you believe you have reached this page in error, contact us.
so looks like we can't run a bot on EC2
 
they can't, but they can tell the IP address is not one of theirs and so impose limits.
 
this bot will go offline for hours at a time as I travel on a bus :)
 
11:32 PM
Well, then add a listener too and it'll still be usable the way I mentioned.
@BrianH Are you talking about DDOS against the bot? That really wouldn't be a huge deal, I would think.
 
@RebolBot /x print {Binary solo!^/‎0000001^/00000011^/000000111^/0000001111}
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print {Binary solo!^/0000001^/00000011^/000000111^/0000001111}
Binary solo!
0000001
00000011
000000111
0000001111
 
@GrahamChiu, what I meant above is that you could run an instance of the bot on Amazon too.
 
@Adrian that thing I quoted above says that they restrict access to SO from EC2
 
11:36 PM
That's odd. Why would they block SO?
 
@Adrian I was using DDOS as an example, but even being ably to use it as an execution proxy would serve to semi-anonymize script kiddy stuff. It would be like network attack laundering.
 
@SomeKittens other way round :) SO blocks EC2
 
there wouldn't need to be any - not to their official API
 
Ah, read the link. Makes sense.
(probably should have done that in the first place)
 
The userscript, acting in-browser and under a logged-in user, would connect to the bot and get an answer directly. The response would be sent to SO from the JS running in-browser.
 
11:40 PM
@Adrian That's what I meant by SO authentication. If that is required to do a user script, that cuts down on the negative possibilities a lot.
 
A userscript doesn't need the user to be logged in to a service to do some useful things. When it comes to chat, you wouldn't need to be if all you wanted is to scrape, but if you also want to write to the chat, then, obviously, you'd need to be.
From what I gather none of you are using the chat modification script, are you?
 
If you have a userscript that can send commands to RebolBot and then get replies, and those commands can include /x, and you don't need to authenticate to do it, then what you have is a general purpose remote execution tool that anyone can use regardless of their intentions. That is what SO authentication would cut down on. Simply monitoring SO chat and posting messages back there has limits because we have user screening here.
 
@RebolBot /s "chatmod" "SO Chat Modification Script" stackapps.com/questions/2105/…
 
The only userscripts I am aware of are browser-specific, not site-specific. So, if you are limiting the RebolBot access scripts to something that can only be run within some SO-site-specific userscript host, that would have the effect of requiring SO authentication, which would helpfully reduce the scope of what you could do.
 
@BrianH And you can see two downsides to this already. No running bot on Amazon, slower interactions. Maybe not a big deal.
@BrianH Most userscripts are site specific.
 
11:52 PM
@Adrian that is not built into the userscript model, that is only a practical limit imposed by the different structure and purpose of different sites. You can make cross-platform scripts.
 
@BrianH For a bot, usefulness is posting to the chat, so as I said above, you'd need to be logged in or use the creds of a logged-in user.
@BrianH The whole userscript thing started because people wanted to mod specific sites as they were rendered by a browser, but of course they don't need to be site-specific, they just happen to be for the most part. Not sure what you meant to say by bringing up the cross platform aspect.
 
@Adrian I'm not talking about access to be a bot, I'm talking about access to be a client of a bot. Right now to be a client of RebolBot you have to post stuff where it is monitoring. If you make it possible for userscripts to be a client sending commands to the bot directly, without requiring that the client themselves be SO-authenticated, then you are providing wide-open access to a general-purpose computing platform with external network access.
Unless you don't provide /x to userscripts, of course.
 
Sure, but I just said above that in order for a userscript to post to the chat you need to be in the context of a logged-in user.
As it is, @GrahamChiu's bot is acting as the user @RebolBot.
To post here you need to be a user.
 
@RebolBot /x print "hello, people!"
 

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