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7:00 PM
:7873527, if you can talk to some people about this, and want to be forward looking, have them contact @DocKimbel and Gabriele to see how to bring the Topaz ideas into Red. You could end up with a Red to JS compiler, parse and who knows what else.
@BenjaminGruenbaum Unlike @HostileFork, I think that targeting the JavaScript VMs is a smart thing at present, given their ubiquity. down the road, if Red pans out the way I think @DocKimbel envisions it, you might find that the dev world will get a whole lot nicer and you won't need to master so many different technologies just to connect a few applications together. And I'm talking all the way from embedded systems to huge server farms running in a cloud.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum the previous message was in reference to your earlier mentioning that you might be able to talk to some people on campus. Not sure why the @ didn't work.
 
That's interesting, well I'll bring up the possibility. After all now that it's open source no one really controls it
 
Parser doesn't like the , !
 
@DocKimbel somewhat prettified version: reb4.me/tt (for curiosity purposes only)
@BenjaminGruenbaum if it's not cruft, why do we have CoffeeScript, jQuery, Less/Sass, HAML, et al? Seems folks are keen to bury the default languages...
 
7:14 PM
@rgchris people don't understand the language
 
We call those folks hipsters morons
 
Also, some people are trying to make it better
Most of the stuff you see in jQuery/CoffeeScript/Sass/Less/Jade gets integrated into the language
 
@SomeKittens Really? Why?
 
@rgchris It's how community development works, some people want a feature for the langauge so they build their library that does it. Eventually it gets integrated into the language, this is true about many things in jQuery for example, not to mention prototype.js
 
Remember the StackOverflow survey results? Remember how many people listed jQuery as a "language"?
 
7:17 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum It's improved incrementally, but not by all that much. Despite HTML5, markup is still as awkward as it was ten years ago.
 
@rgchris Just to know where we're standing, just how much experience do you have in JavaScript?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum dabbled somewhat, made some things work.
 
@rgchris Fact is, GUI development is moving towards SGML not from it, languages like C# are starting to use it to describe GUI.
 
@graph It's just something that you either see or you don't. I was showing stuff like subrule: ['apple | 'banana] and then that you get 10 printed and true with things like parse [apple apple banana apple 10 http://google.com] [some subrule set x integer! (print x) url!], and you also get true from subrule ["a" | "b"] with parse "aaabbcccc" [some subrule 4 "c"]. I don't know what to tell you if you don't "get" the punchline...
 
@rgchris Let me assure you, JavaScript is really different than what it was 10 years ago.
 
7:20 PM
@SomeKittens No, don't recall that. Curious finding though...
 
Other than be patient. :-)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Practises have changed, interpreters have changed, apis have been added, but the language is more or less the same.
 
People were looking for an internet java. They did not realize Branden Eich snuck Smalltalk through their back door. People are just starting to grasp how awesome javascript is and its features, it's the first wildly used language to feature prototypical inheritance and it is the language who brought functional programming to the masses.
 
(...and read the parse project documentation just to understand how much work went into this...)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Awesome is relative. I'm familiar with the concepts and the flaws.
 
7:29 PM
@rgchris I'm always for advancement, I'm just saying I wouldn't call it cruft, it's a lot better than the alternatives available at that point (basically java or C)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum, JavaScript is nice in a manner of speaking when you just focus on the some of it's features like the prototypal inheritance, and some of its dynamism, but it is still not that flexible a language compared to something like Rebol. That said, it is everywhere and if you could compile to its VM as a platform, then why not "use" it. but this would be using it as a compilation target.
 
I'm also yet to see a significantly better model for development. I admit I'm a complete newbie at Rebol
 
Its funny, javascript is a close semantic cousin to REBOL, yet, the few things it lacks make it feel like just another typical language to me. I've used other duct typed languages, prototypical languages, yet I don't see those things as making REBOL fundamentally different. what really makes it different is the static binding. Almost no one really gets this aspect of the language and its rarely leveraged in APIs.
 
Yes, compared to Java or C, you're right.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yes, but my background is Rebol—the syntax seems overbearing, the types model flawed, etc.
 
7:30 PM
@rgchris How is the type model flawed? (I think that apart from the lack of interfaces, javascript typing is really nice)
 
Well, first—dates: why no literal?
 
the other fundamentally different aspect to REBOL is that types are not just classes.
 
Where are the urls?
 
@moliad javascript types are not classes
 
Why can't you use reserved words?
 
7:32 PM
yep... sorry... objects.
 
@rgchris In what format would date literals work?
 
Why do you need commas in Arrays?
 
@rgchris How would you do arrays without commas? You need some sort of separator, I don't think there's a difference if we use commas or spaces
@rgchris You can, you just have to use bracket notation so the language knows you're not using it as a reserved word
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum A little time with Rebol and you would not dare utter such a sentence. :-)
 
Why is typeof not more fine-grained?
 
7:34 PM
@rgchris typeof is horrible, I rarely use it. I also rarely see any need to do explicit type checking.
@moliad I'm sure Rebol has advantages. I'm saying that's not a reason to call javascript cruft :)
 
javascript still only has the same code types as all the other C/C++ derivatives of the last 20 years. their implementation is secondary to the fact that you can still only speak in terms of strings and numbers, all the rest is just a way to concatenate these two things and classify them.
 
Why are array literals evaluated? (well, I understand JS has no concept of word!)
 
@HostileFork Perhaps, but if you're building a language like java script I'm not sure it would make a difference
@moliad I'm not sure I agree, in javascript functions are a code type. That makes the language really powerful, I don't speak in terms of strings and numbers I speak in terms of chaining actions and then applying them to stuff
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum It was funny when I'd talk about my research and I'd call C++ a "legacy language" and people would get mad. I meant it was legacy because it was in text files, not trying to say that like... Java was better or something. :-)
 
@rgchris What does word mean? I'm assuming you mean why array literals are not lazy loaded?
 
7:37 PM
And then here I am using Rebol, and back to text files... hehe
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Not much sense in this if you're not familiar with Rebol. (sorry, not meant to sound negative)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I never said javascript is cruft, its just not very distinctive as a language... it doesn't even have its own syntax... it borrows the same, tedious syntax which came with C.
 
@HostileFork text files?
@rgchris I like learning (I was not offended)
 
In computer programming, intentional programming is a collection of concepts which enable software source code to reflect the precise information, called intention, which programmers had in mind when conceiving their work. By closely matching the level of abstraction at which the programmer was thinking, browsing and maintaining computer programs becomes easier. The concept was introduced by long-time Microsoft employee Charles Simonyi, who led a team in Microsoft Research which developed an integrated development environment (IDE) called IP that demonstrates these concepts. For reasons...
^-- I was one of the designers of that.
 
@moliad I think that its syntax is very different from C. Its syntax was made to appear like it was C so the author could sneak it into the browser. It's very different in concept from C and its derivatives. You can write javascript like C but you shouldn't, in the last 4 years more people started realizing it.
 
7:39 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum true, you do have first class functions.. but then C also does have them via pointers, so I guess its part of the same old, same old . ;-) as @rgchris points out, REBOL uses litteral and first class types for many other types of human readable data. when parsing we can leverage that so say give me the first occurence of [date! url! tag! decimal! ] in this 1 mb file. directly, from 1 line of code. that's the type of completely different mindset when one uses REBOL.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Cool, you're in the right place :)
@BenjaminGruenbaum That's part of the problem—Rebol is a redesign from the source out: it is a language definition first, then an interpreter. C syntax is major baggage.
 
@moliad When you say C function pointers are the same as javascript functions, imagine me saying Rebol parse is like Regex. Javascript functions are a lot more powerful. I'm not saying it is better than Rebol, if I thought Rebol offered no advantages anywhere I wouldn't be here
@rgchris Which is why people made stuff like CoffeeScript :). Also I think that the syntax dramatically changed in the last 10 years, it's very different from C now (you can still write code that looks like C but normally you don't)
 
when I show rebol to C# coders, often they cry out heresy... then, when I show them how differently I solve the same problem they start realizing that REBOL isn't just a replacement of {} by [] for which they are used to arguing. a real deep analysis of REBOL requires understanding that you don't approach solutions the same way... its like throwing away a lot of your experience, and many can't fathom starting from scratch.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I don't think anyone has to get all 100% Rebol to use it, hope that's clear. It can just be a tool and you fit it in. I think part of what our religiosity is trying to say is that, over time, you might find you catch the bug just like everyone else to the point where you will want to go 100% because every time you try to go back your mind will scream at the other languages and tools "WHY AREN'T YOU MORE LIKE REBOL!? WHY WEREN'T YOU DESIGNED!?!" :-)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum You have to include CoffeeScript to be able to use it—it's a patch to conceal some of the cruft. As is jQuery.
 
7:44 PM
But that point of view takes time to get to. And also, you will find reasons to scream at Rebol also... just not the reasons that people who first pick it up scream. :-)
 
@moliad I think starting from scratch is awesome. I don't see much point in learning something I already know :) I can really see the appeal in Rebol's approach, especially for cases I'd use a tokenizer
@rgchris Actually, CoffeeScript compiles to JavaScript (very transparently). The thing is the language spec tends to include stuff it likes, the next spec includes arrow notation (=> for functions) for example
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I know its a shallow comparison. sorry :-). But it still is the same use case... assign a function to a variable and use it dynamically... javascript adds reflection built-in which has to be manually designed in C (and its a bitch to do, I agree).
 
I think one of Rebol's greatest advantages right now is that you can still make dramatic changes if you find something you don't like and not break a huge code base. In JavaScript that's impossible, instead you have features like with(){} that you're just not supposed to use
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I understand that—I am somewhat intrigued by CoffeeScript, but as you say—it is still compiled to JavaScript. Hence a patch. When CoffeeScript is native, I'll be more forgiving.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yes, it's an advantage to have both the legacy of design forethought...while the lack of deployment to still make changes...a very patient userbase who knows it's still alpha. I'm asking and begging we not let that advantage go to waste, and instead FIX everything we can...especially in areas of compatibility of Rebol and Red, as I think both will be relevant.
 
7:48 PM
@HostileFork just as an example... when I learned python at film visual effects studio... the first thing I did was build a python VID. using lists of arbitrary items, using reflection and list iterations... took me a week to write, and then I could build GUIs at the same speed as I could in REBOL with as little code too. Many of the concepts in REBOL can be exported to other languages...
 
@moliad Function pointers are just pointing your variable at the function's location in memory. You have no notion of binding the function (currying,partials) , you have no notion of chaining it, you have no notion of Monads. You have no notion of dynamic invokation on other objects. It's a lot more than reflection
 
@moliad Yup...I think most do the same when forced to use other languages, see BrianH's comment about Lisp starred on the right. :-)
 
I have a completely different question :) What IDE would I use for Rebol?
 
another example, I just built another linked list in C for a project.... but I use the same philosophy as REBOL for a lot of its design... like chaining of calls and types of return values... it allows me do to fancy stuff like:

root->add("1")->add("2")->add("haha")->add("3")->add("4");
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Sadly the debugging side hasn't really been explored as much as it should, and the flexibility makes doing a good debugger tricky. For syntax highlighting there's Chris's TextMate bundle and @Adrian has something else he showed me that's popular and more multi platform...
 
7:52 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum There's no effective IDE as such, I use TextMate (may switch to Sublime Text).
 
That's the one
 
@moliad That's hardly fancy syntax :-)
What's the Rebol file extension?
Also, I can't find a Rebol package in Sublime Text :/
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I use Ultra edit with a few macros and a litterate programming style the only thing I miss is intellisense, which is impossible to do with REBOL, unfortunately.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum .r (though some pick .r3 to avoid conflicts)
@BenjaminGruenbaum TextMate bundle should work.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum but all the functions are symmetric and can chain... ex:
 
7:54 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Here we have an "issue". The issue is that the R language took Rebol's historic ".r". GitHub wasn't highlighting it and when I talked to them they said "yeah, no, that's for R"... so I then said "we're on a modern reboot, why not use .rebol". So we got .r2, .r3, and .rebol from GitHub. Anyway.
 
root->find("text")->add("next")->prev()->prev()->add("before");
 
It's just a convention, doesn't matter to the interpreter.
Red uses .red for Red and .reds for Red/System
 
I should ask on stackoverflow
Wait, someone already did :)
7
Q: Other options for a Rebol editor|IDE?

MrBertieI currently use Programmer's Notepad with the Rebol syntax scheme. It's not bad--does any insightful person have another suggestion?

Doesn't look too promising
 
I never was all that interested in syntax highlighting.
 
Douglas Crockford said a few days ago that he doesn't like syntax highlighting and he'd really like a context highlighting editor for javascript
 
7:58 PM
It's kind of noise and clutter to me. I do like editing in nice proportional fonts instead of courier, though. And I like it when declarations are called out in bold, the way Chris's highlighter works.
 
Where can I find Chris's highlighter?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum <Programmer's Notepad with the Rebol syntax scheme> is what I use too. Nothing fancy, but it works fine.
 
let me send you my ST package - basically his TextMate bundle
but with some stuff striped out and a build file to launch Rebol
 
That's cool, I like Sublime Text and use it often
My email is benjamingr [at] gmail.com
 
8:00 PM
@Adrian Adrian, I'd be curious if any of the commands work—I wouldn't have thought so...
 
Are you on Linux or Windows?
no commands don't work
 
I'd rather use windows
 
snippets do
 
I can use linux if that's an issue
 
I'm using windows
 
8:01 PM
btw, UltraEdit is now on Linux and OSX its pretty powerful, it even includes a javascript interpreter for macro building :-D
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'm talking about his webservice, you feed it a URL. So for instance you take something like http://reb4.me/r/x/so-rebol-answers.r and then feed it through and get it nicely formatted. Makes it prett-ay
 
@HostileFork Oh, I thought it's something I could use while coding
 
And you can click the links.
 
Some of them, I have a fairly spartan whitelist.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum You can look at the GUI side of Rebol too, then
It's only working for Windows (and Amiga?) for now.
 
8:03 PM
@Adrian That's cool, to be honest that's not why I find Rebol interesteing but I guess it's worth learning too
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum There's his textmate bundle, I made a highlighter and a sort of IntelliText or whatever for Source Insight a loooong time ago but I don't even know where that is. Probably on an external drive in the closet. :-)
 
Well, I think when you see how easily it can work with graphics, you might want to check out that side too.
 
how do I link SO items in a chat box?
 
I'd kind of like us to NOT at this point be telling people to do that. It defocuses the conversation off of the R3 work and just getting the stable foundations.
 
@Adrian Should I wait for your email with the ST package or is it going to take a while?
 
8:05 PM
now, just about to send it.
 
@moliad "Oneboxing" as the feature is called is something that happens when you post a link in a message on its own, for certain kinds of links.
 
@moliad You just paste them, they'll turn into links themselves
 
@HostileFork sorry, but R2 is VERY usable, there is no point in trying to downplay it.
3
Q: How do I perform benchmark comparisons on a series of functions in Rebol?

rgchrisI recently enquired about the fastest/most efficient way to count newlines in Rebol—I now need to ascertain which approach is best in a given situation. Some example scenarios: Short Text, Fewer Newlines; Short Text, Many Newlines; Medium/Long Text, Many Newlines (Code); Medium/Long Text, Fewer ...

the above shows how easily one can do some graphics work with REBOL... the images are built from the script in the post... using NO external package or library... its just built from the ground up using drawing routines.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum, sent
 
One more curious JS typism: typeof null == 'object' (true then, true today)
 
8:08 PM
@moliad There is some point, considering that any bugs someone finds are going to get answered with "yeah, uhh... sorry... can't do anything".
 
you can already do similar stuff with R3 too, its just a bit less documented for now AFAICT
 
I don't think that inspires as much goodwill in today's programmer ecology as you'd think. :-)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum, I've modded the R file extension so that it unblocks Rebol, btw
 
thanks :)
 
so you should do the same, or remove the R package altogether
 
8:10 PM
@HostileFork except, I have never found a bug that I coudn't work around and I've been building HUGE codebases with 300MB parse rules and building servers on line which manage stuff people rely on for transporation... so its still, today, usefull for all the current real-world coding.
 
Should I just copy it to that folder and change its name to Rebol.sublime-package ?
 
@moliad I like parse, but the idea of a 300MB makes me shudder just a little :)
 
leaving for the week-end... see you all on monday :-)
 
@moliad VID is a cool idea, but it's just one of many ideas for dialects, and every example may look nice to the eyes of Rebol 2 programmers but looks ugly as sin to web designers... I'm not saying it's not a cool idea, just, can we not be suggesting people learn VID? Please?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Doesn't need a name change.
 
8:12 PM
@moliad R2 is a mature product. the R2-forward project keeps it close to current with R3. As you say it does graphics well .: rebol.com/pre-view.html
 
But one thing - make sure that the Blackboard scheme is selected for Rebol files otherwise the coloring won't work.
 
I still do to... especially when I keep optimising our stuff so we keep the processes running within 1.5 GB :-)

curiously... its remarkably stable. we, in fact, don't even have memory leaks in our code base!
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum, and edit the build file to match your system
 
@Adrian thanks, it works :)
 
And reb-gui adds a layer of richness too dobeash.com/rebgui.html
 
8:14 PM
@moliad Nice :) Enjoy yr weekend!
 
@Adrian was there one included or should I just make one for ST? Creating one seems very simple
Is there any Rebol debugger?
 
it's there
no debugger, but Rebol has a trace functionality built-in.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum You have something called TRACE and I use PROTECT a lot as a kind of memory breakpoint
 
trace and probe are useful
 
You can find a point or condition, turn TRACE on when you want, it will start tracing, then turn it off. That's kind of what you've got. I actually have been using PROTECT more often than TRACE. It's what we make do with for now. But yeah, probe is useful.
 
8:16 PM
@HostileFork ah... what? do you really think that I have ANY kind of respect for WEB programming... the web is still today THE SINGLE MOST RIDICULOUS FARCE ever imposed on programmers... sorry, but every time I am forced to do so called web programing I just want to puke at how BAD it is. using any of the tools I've had to suffer (including trendy things like jQuery and chrome).
 
@moliad Yeah but can we sort of not say that kind of thing, like, at the beginning?
It sounds grumpy.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum, probe is useful because it will take a value in, output it, and just pass it through. So you can just place it at any point in your source without affecting anything.
 
And people make their living with the web, it's a bit of a turn-off.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum No overall debugger. are some useful toys for debugging PARSE rules. one is rebol.org/documentation.r?script=parse-analysis.r
 
Let people come to their own realizations, preferably through parse/etc.
 
8:18 PM
@HostileFork hehe, I was writing a post on not starting a thread on that ;-)
anyhow... see ya in a few days... celebrating my 3rd anniversary with the GF this week-end :-)
 
@moliad Congratulations... have fun!
 
4 more years to go
l8tr, Maxim
 
@HostileFork To be fair, if it the web were a better platform, devs wouldn't make as much money developing for it. But the web isn't good because it's actually good, it's good because it runs in web browsers and a lot of people have and use those things.
 
@HostileFork I think we actually should teach people VID more. The reason being that it's perhaps one of the only GUI systems available, where you can actually build a functioning GUI in a few minutes. When you grow out of it, you can try something else.
 
@Henrik I'd put VID in the category of "if someone comes looking... for that" then okay. "Yeah, there's a graphics dialect, here are some caveats." If someone didn't ask about graphics, don't mention it.
You guys are seeing it through the eyes of history and so it doesn't look like hell in a handbasket to you. That's okay. But I'm kind of hoping to get... let's see... someone under 40 to use Rebol?
 
8:22 PM
Rebol can't find 'view', what am I doing wrong?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Did you download R3 and not Rebol 2 / View from the rebol.com site? This is all what I'm talking about.
 
oh, you need the R3-GUI script. Forgot that
let me send
 
Oh, you're doing the R3 gui
On Windows or whatever.
Bah, Windows.
 
@HostileFork VID is an excellent opportunity to teach dialects as well as View. I built the VID Extension Kit on top of it and it's a fast way to build GUIs.
 
I just want to mess with stuff :)
 
8:24 PM
there you go
I put both the r3 exe and the gui script in c:\utils
 
@Henrik Well everyone can have their ideas on how to pitch, we can see what works, only saying what my intuition is.
 
which is on my path
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum <just want to mess with stuff :)> That's the Rebol spirit! Try R2/view and have a lot of fun.
 
But I don't want us to fill up StackOverflow with R2/R3 incompatibility Q&A! :-/
 
@HostileFork can't stop progress!
 
8:27 PM
Or a bug we can't trace and fix in the interpreter source code, we have the source to R3 and not R2... invoking Mugatu again: "Is it just me?! I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!!"
 
@Henrik I agree with this. I think the biggest problem @HostileFork has with the GUI side of Rebol is that the skin is not as classy looking as it could be were it not just a working skin (talking R3 here, because I think the R2 one is very 90's) and that newcomers to Rebol might no be too impressed.
@Jina He can do the same with R3, since he's using Windows.
 
@Adrian Well like I said, you guys are all welcome to try selling it, I'm going to bet against it... but I'd rather see awesome experiments @BenjaminGruenbaum and the other JavaScript-etc.-experienced people do that accept realities like "the web exists" and have them contributing to the design and implementation of code that matters.
 
Should I open some basic Rebol questions? For example at the moment I'm wondering how can I get user input from the command line, I'm sure it's basic but no questions on stackoverflow cover this
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yes.
 
8:41 PM
@HostileFork It's not a question of selling anything. Some people just like to mess around with GUIs. Don't need to deny anyone...
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Absolutely. With just the usual caveats about any StackOverflow questions, like making it reasonably researched and all that, but you're at 2k rep so I don't think you need me to tell you that.
 
@HostileFork It doesn't come up easily on a google search or at all on stackoverflow questions search
 
I don't know if they should be too researched given that we're hoping to help some newbies who surely won't be looking too much.
@BenjaminGruenbaum, if you just do ? "input" at the console you'll see the input command come up.
 
I don't want SO mods getting mad at us and thinking that Rebol is some sort of spam movement though. (They pretty much thought that about RebolTutorial at one point until I went and explained he wasn't.)
 
but I guess you'd have to know how to use the Rebol REPL help
 
8:45 PM
@Adrian I would have to know that the command exists beforehand
 
you don't - things in quotes are subtring searched in command names and command docs
if you don't quote, then it's an exact match
Help mentions this.
 
Which is why I think asking SO questions is a good idea, it would help future users looking up that sort of stuff :) Whenever I'm not sure how to do something the first (well second) thing I do is google it up to make sure I'm not missing something obvious
0
Q: Basic Input from the Command Line in Rebol

Benjamin GruenbaumI am currently in the process of learning Rebol. In other languages I know, I can read input from the command line, for example in Java: Scanner sc = new Scanner(System.in) sc.nextLine(); In C# Console.ReadLine(); In C scanf("%s", s); I was wondering how one would accomplish the same t...

 
Yes, I say ask away. Don't worry about looking like spam, cause now there will be more than one user generating activity.
 
I made it very short on purpose and added examples in other languages so users who know another language will usually search how to do it in Rebol based on their 'native' language (I noticed a lot of people do that)
 
0
Q: Basic Input from the Command Line in Rebol

Benjamin GruenbaumI am currently in the process of learning Rebol. In other languages I know, I can read input from the command line, for example in Java: Scanner sc = new Scanner(System.in) sc.nextLine(); In C# Console.ReadLine(); In C scanf("%s", s); I was wondering how one would accomplish the same t...

 
8:49 PM
Thank you feeds :P
Another newbish question, this script is generating an Error on print 3+7:
REBOL [
	description: "Very basic example"
]
print "Hello World"
print 3 + 7 ;should be 10
print 3+7 ; should be 3+7
print length? "123456" ; should be 6
input
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I agree I just want a culture of "moderation"... each "good" SO question is an opportunity to catch someone's attention, every "bad" one is like a black mark on the record. So I encourage getting them out there but making sure they're quality...
@BenjaminGruenbaum A legal "word" identifier must not start with a digit.
 
print a3+7 ; should be a3+7 but is error since "has no value"
 
because it doesn' :-)
there is no value for symbol a3+7
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Try print quote a3+7. Remember, in the DO dialect, the default thing for a word is to look it up...
 
Right, it's just a variable name with nothing assigned to it :)
 
8:55 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum rebol needs white space around numbers. a3: 4 print a3 + 7 does something.
 
quote is a way of making things "dead". Like it would be if you said print first [a3+7]
 
@Jina this is what I was practicing, I was checking the difference between 3+7 and 3 + 7
 
(Code in blocks is insulated, and not evaluated by default...something has to "wake it up")
(And quote is just another way to do that same thing)
Remember, Lisp heritage.
 
you can do print 'a3+7 to just print the symbol without eval, as @HostileFork said
 
You can have 3+7 be a word, but not directly in the console - it confuses the default parser: set to-word "a+7" 9999 print get to-word "a+7" [fixed typos]
 
8:58 PM
3+7 is just an illegal parser token, it's not valid Rebol. Some things aren't legal. If you make a Twitter dialect you might think it's a good idea to write tweet [I am using words!] just because you can use symbolics. But if you say tweet [You would think the C++ room was 4Chan], you'll find out that it's legal to have C++ be a word but 4Chan is illegal. Really, you need to use strings where strings are appropriate, and structure solves a different problem.
 
@Adrian I'm accepting your answer, you have to wait 10 minutes before accepting an answer
 
dt2
Hi! I have a screenshot! a248.e.akamai.net/camo.github.com/…
but i do not know how to write clean code...
 
pi: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884
print first [pi]
prints "pi" and not the value, print pi works, how do I reference pi inside that block?
 
@dt2 - wow! nice
 
dt2
node with rebol behind a pipe
node-webkit but the concept works with raw node too.
 
9:04 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Okay, now we're getting into Lispness but Rebol has some tricks up its sleeve. print get first [pi] is for starters, but...
 
dt2
parts could be used to implement call until native call is ready
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum print get first [pi]
 
What you often want to do with a block of symbols is evaluate it, yet keep the symbols in a block. So try reduce [pi pi + 1 pi + 2]
 
@HostileFork reduce is widely used in js :) wait, not the same thing, I'm guessing it does string concat here or something similar ?
 
You can use parentheses in the DO dialect for clarity, so that gets you the same thing as reduce [(pi) (pi + 1) (pi + 2)]
 
9:06 PM
@dt2 , next step, replace V8 with the Rebol runtime.
 
Again, just one of the potential applications for parentheses. In fact. Try this: compose [pi (pi + 1) pi + 2]
 
1
A: Basic Input from the Command Line in Rebol

AdrianYou can use the input command to ask for input at the console. >> name: input Joe == "Joe"

 
@BenjaminGruenbaum You can leave the print off and just work with the structure, the interpreter will show you what things eval to.
 
dt2
@adrian, no, this way i can use all the node-libs. they are somewhat better with all the interfacing
but changing the pipe with native calls would be nice
 
probe is the more general tool than print. Print has some loosey goosey (in my opinion) behaviors of how it makes strings out of symbolic structure.
 
9:08 PM
well, I'd like to use Rebol to manipualte the dom, if possible.
 
Anyway I got to go, I'll definitely keep learning this, I'm still at the very start :)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Cya soon :-)
 
@Adrian you should port query selectors to Rebol :)
 
dt2
@adrian you have to send commands from rebol to node for the dom, that works.
 
Sure, but you can't use Rebol in HTML
Anyhow, this is still a cool first step.
 
dt2
9:11 PM
i can send html to the window, and can attach callbacks which send input-stuff back to rebol
if i need more, i need to add a little command on the js-side.
 
Hmm, that's still pretty good.
 
dt2
And then it looks like the do-cmd here: github.com/dt2/werebol-scratch/blob/master/partner.r3#L135
and when i am less tired i need somebody to help. breaking it in more reusable pieces. thought trying on cloud9.
 
@dt2 I think this is great! It'll let the JavaScript junkies play in their environment and taste Rebol at the same time.
 
dt2
Yep :)
 
Have to make an appropriate question to steer people to the project.
And it can be used as a back end, as well.
 
9:18 PM
@Adrian Best idea is probably keep chatting with the Javascripters
They'll be the ones who want something like that anyway
 
Are you saying that this shouldn't be mentioned?
 
@Adrian Well I'm saying the benefits of making up a Q&A just to give it visibility are not high, better to explain it in person here and such
When someone asks if we have it, now we can say "yes, we have that". :-)
 
Node-webkit is already an interesting project. If someone searches for that, they should somehow bump into this project if it makes sense, in the answer.
 
dt2
Now i have to go. hope to see you tomorrow :)
 
@dt2 I'll try to take a closer look at werebol tonight. L8tr
 
9:32 PM
Hello @RichardBrown, welcome to the Rebol ranting room. :-)
All your Rebol needs 24/7. Including answering the perpetual question: "What the heck is Rebol?"
(That one seems to come up a lot. :-P)
 
9:43 PM
2
A: Basic Input from the Command Line in Rebol

rgchrisThe ask function complements input by printing a string prior to requesting input: age: ask "How old are you? " It also has a /hide refinement to conceal input: pass: ask/hide "Enter your password: " At this time, /hide is not implemented in Rebol 3 alphas

 
9:57 PM
thing is, the title says "Rebel against software complexity!" So I thought it was like a general programming room
 
@graph Could be construed that way, but there's very little alternate use for the term 'Rebol'.
 
yet. Someone's trying to get the "Python" Brand name away from the language I think
 
Well, I finally have enough reputation to chat. :-)
 
Welcome!
 
@Respectech Can we have it confirmed that you are, indeed, Bo?
(not that it affects the welcome :)
 
10:10 PM
Yes, I am indeed Bo.
And you are Christopher Ross-Gill from the Isle of Arran?
IIRC...
 
Formerly thereof, indeed.
 
Announcing first three Android-related source code pull requests to the official rebol source code base:

- dtoa.c amending MOLD decimal
- added Android platform, some R2 platforms, corrected handling of system/product name, added platform existence sanity check
- clipboard amendment (corrects clipboard handling on non-windows platforms)



Both "platform" and "clipboard" amendments made by Cyphre.
 
@graph Most of us know more languages than just Rebol. :-)
It's effectively general programming... philosophy. Rebol's a philosophy too.
 
no doubt
funny to treat it as a philosophy. I'm usually going from one programming-microproblem to the next. Right now I'm doing a little jQuery. Looking up syntax, hoping to find a general idea for implementation or even the exact code I need
I think if I had some extra horsepower I'd use this to do my stuff faster and better
 
@graph jQuery is funny. You never know quite how it's going to perform, I agree with the people who say "you really have to know the JavaScript under the hood". Programming has gotten so weird.
 
10:20 PM
well jQuery is already "under the hood" when you do JS Frameworks like Angular.js
it's turtles all the ways down
speaking of which, I'd like to see a huge poster with all abstraction levels in computing, from the register in a processor up to something in user space
 
It's monkeys teetering on the head of a giraffe on a wheelbarrow being pushed by a turtle in a robotic suit.
 
what about the abstraction thing
 
@Ladislav Yay! Been looking forward to these :)
 
@graph Abstraction is a tool, but the more "terra firma" you have the better. This is why a lot of C programmers are skeptical of C++. If you try and compare a string and an integer in C++ you get error C2784: ‘bool std::operator >(const std::basic_string<_Elem,_Traits,_Alloc> &,const _Elem *)’ : could not deduce template argument for ‘const _Elem *’ from ‘int’
 
but Angular is magic!!
 
10:26 PM
@graph Haven't used it. What does it do?
 
it has two way databinding
so you change the array and the website is updated appropriately
or the user changes some data and the data knows it
it has "directives" which is basically custom html elements
I used that actually even though it was not intuitive for me to understand it
you can use "ng-repeat" within a html element, say, <td> and dynamically craete stuff
the html is basically the input or template for Angular (no extra templating thingy to learn)
 
@graph Example (your own code, to demonstrate).
 
bro my own code is something half-finished on my webserver I booked last week
gimme some time
it's sensitive, you know?
 
Well, no judgment here. :-) It's just it would be easier for us to spin it the Rebol way if we knew concretely what you were doing...
 
egghead.io this is the place that explains it if you wanted to understand the concepts
first vid is less than 3 minutes and I think it is enough for you to either find it intriguing or to scoff at it
ok I think I should mention that ohter, similar framerworks are backbone and ember; mentioning that could help you know waht Im talking about
 
10:39 PM
Ah. Well, okay. These are going to have an edge on Rebol for a while for that kind of purpose in the browser because...well...JavaScript is built into the browser. It's not exactly a fair fight. :-)
But we're about to get tricky, on server and client side. Did you see dt2's werebol above?
 
yea
I see it on the right side
this chat is really nice
also @dt2 is aparently german like me which.....
 
@graph Yeah, it's got some pretty cool features, like the permalinking and the starring system is cool. You ever use IRC?
 
a little, back in the day
ah so the starred comments show up on the right
 
Rebol fits well on the desktop and server. But as a tool to alter a browser viewport by manipulating a DOM: well, that's Javascript's home. Let's not overpromote the best domains for rebol.
 
so @Jina, do you use Rebol commercially too?
 
10:44 PM
@graph Well you could have room titles or whatever, and so if a person was one of the room owners then you'd sort of have the room topic be something...whatever was last most notable that happened, so it was a quick way of coming up to speed. This starring/voting system is better.
 
yea but that's not even close
 
It's not precisely chronological. It's sort of a mix of ranking between the number of votes something gets and how recent it was. Pretty neat way of coming up to speed.
 
this place is so great
 
I've built a few apps that are in use, yes.
 
Just FYI: I use Rebol commercially. :-)
 
10:45 PM
readability, permalink for comments
@Respectech, respect!
 
@graph StackOverflow (and the whole StackExchange network) is pretty slick. Have you seen data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/queries
@graph It's pretty massive, bigger than just StackOverflow, if you weren't aware: stackexchange.com/sites
 
@Respectech, what are you using Rebol for, exactly?
@HostileFork I am checking it out it's awesome
hm it's asking for my userid but "graph" is not wroking and I dont know of any other userid I might have?!
 
I use Rebol for everything (except in the browser...however, I do use it on the server side with CGI or exec, so it's almost like in the browser). My entire tech company (~$1 million annual revenue) runs the backoffice on Rebol software.
Presently, I am developing a new type of surveillance camera that uses Red/System and other Rebol-related technologies as part of the embedded firmware.
It's 100% working right now and is in the alpha testing phase. Hope to start beta testing in the next few weeks. Already have several dozen orders for the cameras.
 
awesome. what's so special about your cameras?
 
@graph You're 1714036
 
10:52 PM
Top secret until release. ;-) Basically, it greatly reduces the network bandwidth and server requirements using some advanced algorithms.
 
and you came up with the idea, the algorithms and you pulled everything off, the whole company thing
 
We've been doing some large IP camera installations over the last few years, but the network and server requirements are HUGE, which means "super expensive". I thought, "there has to be a better way." Turns out, there is.
Yes. I wrote all the software for my company. I started out as a sole proprietorship, but now we're an S-Corp in California (the absolute WORST state to have a corporation, I think) with about a dozen employees.
Regarding the cameras: Yes, I developed the algorithms.
 
there's so much you can do if you can program (many can) and actually pull through and finsih your projects (few do)
 
(I've been doing this type of thing since 1980.)
 
I started my little project last summer after my outsourcing attempt failed lol
I decided to do it myself
 
10:58 PM
Outsourcing can be really tough. That's one of the great things about Rebol...pretty much any Rebol programmer has the same philosophy of simplicity, elegance and flexible code when solving a project.
 
yea and you can find plenty of Rebol guys all over India, cheap!
 
You can? News to me!
 

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