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12:16 AM
@earl Okay here is a 160x160 icon ("round number", 128 + 32) and hopefully good enough for the purpose
I swear, it always looks different when I move over and check it on the laptop. The right bracket is too black. I gotta fix that.
But in any case, that's the size and proportionality I'm going for.
 
 
8 hours later…
8:30 AM
@pierre So, did you see earl's soon-to-be-published build page ?
 
9:24 AM
yes
hey! super!
the famous "wall of binaries", is that it?
so, rebolsource.net is now THE place where all rebol stuff is happening? ;-s
There is quite a bit going on on AltMe. Really too bad that it is so "closed". A bit like coming here: yes, you can, but you must try hard.
All this implies great dispersion of talks, ideas, etc. This is definitely not what the Redbol Community needs! We need to gather, put things in common, merge efforts.
IMHO, at least...
 
9:56 AM
@pierre I agree that coming together on things is important. I've noticed in the past that a real hurdle for the Rebol community is that it attracts people who are...rebellious, and tend to value independent thinking over consensus. Anyone who cared too much about consensus would probably use a more popular language!
AltME is active with the existing community, but I do not think it is a path forward for attracting new users. This is why I've tried to forge a bit of a path on StackOverflow, whose abilities are more modern.
Adopting GitHub was a good step as well, but there are now 7 pull requests waiting, and the last change to master was 12 days ago.
My main tactical concern is that Rebol and Red build some consensus so they can share all code that they should reasonably be able to share, and can share common tests and a 100% compatible grammar.
 
@HostileFork That won't happen. Red's goals are vastly different from Rebol's.
 
A common grammar won't happen or a language subset won't happen?
 
Probably neither. Common grammar is more realistic than a common language, but still not very likely.
(But as Red currently loads via R2, they lexically share a common grammar. Only that Red already interprets quite a few syntactical constructs quite differently, and splits up a few lexical classes.)
 
@earl Incidentally, a thought on "meme" warfare... perhaps the text on the build page could read "Rebol 3 Binaries - [UN[o]FFICIAL]" Again, it's not a trick to overuse...no more than once per page, but it's a little bit of a secret handshake that could catch on as people "get" it.
 
10:13 AM
heh, i in fact played with using REB[o]L in a few places. but it didn't look too good :)
 
Yeah, no
 
completely ignoring the value of negative whitespace :)
 
I wouldn't ignore it! But if you want to crunch it like that I was working on a shadowless version.
I wound up thinking the shadow looked better, but it needs a bit of space from that line
Could the bottom of the icon align with the bottom of the "We are happy" line?
 
refresh
however, it's set as background image at the moment. so text will flow over it, once the page gets sufficiently small.
 
Better, but then I compress the page it does crash into the line, which is why I chose the spacier "bottom of Regular Builds"
Which I don't think is too much whitespace, it's only 160x160 after all and you're still allowing two lines of header at that point.
And I'm not kidding about the whitespace thing, leaving space on designs instead of covering every possible square and margin up to the edges conveys "classiness".
 
10:20 AM
refresh
 
Hm looks to align with the bottom of the first line of header, not the second... I'd go with the second and put maybe just a smidge of space on the top instead
Sweet.
 
refresh
 
Yup. Bite us, PHP! :-)
(Well, easy target...)
 
bottom line of the second header aligned with the southernmost point of the shadow
30px additional whitespace at the top
small phone screen users will hate use :)
 
Well, let me check on my phone
 
10:25 AM
no i'll also have to try aligning the line of the westernmost point of the logo with the first heading. nah, doesn't get better
 
Looks fine on my Galaxy Nexus
Well if you throw in a nav bar it can fill in that whitespace
You can make it white-on-black
Favicon looks esp. good on the Nexus, actually.
 
yeah, was going for a dark gray for the navbar (#333).
ah, looks good on my phone as well.
 
So on the Nexus, the Binaries and experimental builds use the full width of the browser, but the License and build farm seem cut and aligned with the end of the build date column.
Actually, all the text that's not in the table is aligned with the end of the Build Date column.
Which actually doesn't look too bad, I'd almost say I prefer it that way.
(Perhaps less extreme would be to end at the right hand edge of the download column, but still give the table a wider piece of the screen to call it out.)
 
that may be just an artifact of the phone's text reflowing.
well, i guess now the final question is about url stability
 
It actually does look good, though. Is it easy to try that on the page itself, so that the interleaved text has a margin that doesn't go all the way to the right side of the table? Like, I really think it does look better.
 
10:34 AM
refresh test
where do you want it cut to: build date or download?
 
I like that better than all the way to the right, but I think I'll like download more.
 
refresh
 
Hello @SiddhpuraAmit ! We are discussing Rebol, and after its recent open-sourcing trying to make a page which has the results of the latest build farm. @earl has created a page and it uses an icon design I've been working on.
Feedback welcome. :-)
I like that.
 
i thought i wouldn't, but i do, too :)
let's leave it at that
url stability: if i ever get around to add more stuff to rebolsource, this page will ultimately be at rebolsource.net/downloads/
 
It doesn't really matter, if you can leave a URL forwarding link behind.
 
10:39 AM
well, the question really is, if i want to redirect now
rs/ -> rs/downloads/, and already put it there.
 
Well, hopefully it's going to become official at some point, I don't think you have a big competing effort on this.
 
with more content, there'll be a navbar with a prominent "downloads" item.
well, i'll just leave it as first page for now. stable enough.
 
It might sound pedantic, but in that first section could the point be made that these are monolithic executables that require no installation (although on UNIX you might have to chmod +x r3-[XXX] to enable eXecutable permission).
 
yes. a friend also suggested a short remark describing "what this particular R3 contains".
 
Also when you say REBOL is a trademark is there a way of putting in some wording that the (prototype) Logo is property of Rebol as well? It's not technically a trademark but I'm just trying to do what I can to encourage the "vision" of this being part of the Rebol official canon.
It's not like, some pirate flag or offshoot, I'd like it to be synonymous with Rebol. Assuming it tests well. So far, it seems to have.
 
10:52 AM
I can't make claims for unrelated entities.
I.e. I won't claim that the logo is RT's unless RT tells me it is :)
If you attach a license to the logo, I'll gladly attribute it properly.
 
Well, the Logo is offered under full license to RT is the point. Basically, I grant them license to decide how it's used. In essence, Creative Commons is granting rights to people you don't know including those who don't want to use your work, but I'm granting a more limited license to one party to use a work. That should still be possible.
 
well, i'm very wary already on the trademark. i take it you explicitly granting me to use the logo still stands.
 
Yup, it's basically something you can use if you can use the name Rebol and in pretty much the same way.
 
(although i only explicitly asked if it's ok to use the favicon, come to think of it.)
 
If you have permission to use Rebol the name, then in my opinion you also have permission for the favicon/icon/graphic etc.
 
10:56 AM
i can not really use the name rebol :)
 
Well, then it's no more and no less questionable than that use. :-)
 
i don't want to add on more questionable uses :)
 
I'm not your concern, basically. :-)
 
if carl want's to get stupid with the trademark (which is expired anyway, it seems, but), i'll have to rename these things.
has carl taken up the offer to have exclusive rights to the logo?
 
He did at one point thank me for it way back when and liked it, but really I think site design and graphics has not been something he's worried about or thought about.
 
10:58 AM
or asked more directly: do you grant me express permission to use this logo on the rebolsource pages?
 
Yes, though like I said, my long term hope (as perhaps your long term hope) is that there can be one integrative Rebol official download page and one logo and one name for this particular thing.
 
yeah. we may have to rename the beast, if things get ugly, though.
freebol should be safe, for example :)
 
If we're going to change the name, I have a better one. :-)
Reusing the Freebol iconography strategy, though.
But yeah, like I say, freebol.org is good through near the end of the year...it's there if needed.
 
If you ever again consider not renewing, let me know. I'll gladly take it over.
 
I'll transfer it to you now if you want freebol.org/downloads or whatever. If you transfer a domain, do you get to keep it through the rest of the paid-for lifetime?
 
11:05 AM
Payment for .org doesn't carry over, no.
 
Hrm. Well, I can put in writing that I'll transfer it to you if you feel it's a better name than rebolsource.net for your current endeavor.
And just point the DNS to you
 
I think rebolsource.net is just fine for now.
I don't want to hint too strongly at a fork, for the moment.
 
Ah, I see.
Yes, good idea.
 
But I'll still gladly take freebol.org, if you ever want to get rid of it :)
 
I'll certainly give it to you, I only kept it in case someone else would want it. :-)
Free-o-charge.
 
11:08 AM
Well, I'd of course reimburse your for any advance payments.
In any case, that can wait. Now let's get this wall-o-binaries launched.
 
I think appending the text "Each download is self-contained and does not require installation (although on unix systems will need a chmod +x to mark as executable)" is worth including at launch.
 
Heh, "Each download is a stand-alone executable and does not require installation." is what I had drafted so far.
 
You might also mention that they're not even compressed...
Although using the word "uncompressed" kind of suggests compression, which is actually what you're trying to not suggest. "Each non-compressed download..."
I lost track of what I was working on, which was clearing disk space for a FreeBSD VM. I had a 2TB drive die this week. :-(
I think the disks are okay, actually, it's just the enclosure that won't power up.
 
Well, thanks a lot for the logo work. Was well worth side-tracking you :)
 
Anyway, an inconvenience.
@earl You're super welcome, my pleasure, and it's actually nice to see some of a vision I had from a while ago coming together. Has been a long wait!
 
11:32 AM
@earl Y'know what I find myself wanting? The background to be ever, ever so slightly not white. Like whiteSmoke (#F5F5F5)
It makes the white in the logo pop ever so slightly, and it's nice and subtle.
Then I feel like I want those two horizontal rules down toward the bottom of the page to match the gray line from the table.
 
f5 is too dark for my taste.
hr's should match, now why don't they ... gonna have to fix that :)
 
Looks fixed. :-)
 
ddd vs eee!
Inacceptable!
 
Well what about #FCFCFC ?
 
I can give you #fdfdfd, no more :)
 
11:37 AM
But that's not a round number!
Oh, the reason it looked fixed on the HR is I reloaded it with the all white background
So one did not notice the difference.
 
Should be fixed now.
 
Yup. But c'mon. #FCFCFC... for me? Please? :-)
 
#fd, or white :)
 
Okay, fine. I actually can't tell the difference, I just like round numbers.
 
What's round about #fc :) ?
 
11:41 AM
In binary, it ends in 00. :)
 
Heh, an even number! :)
 
A doubly even one.
 
"Downloads are stand-alone executables, which are not compressed and do not require installation."
 
Nicely worded.
 
@HostileFork mdr! (lol, in French) => I guess we are both thinking about Mr Shadwolf?...
 
11:44 AM
So just in case, the downloads page is fully public now:
 
@pierre Well, I think there's a lot of 'personality' among the people who chose to stick around for the experiment...but weaknesses and strengths are two sides of the same coin...
@earl Can you configure your webserver to canonize www.rebolsource.net to rebolsource.net ?
(I know how to do that in Apache, but not Cheyenne or what-not.)
 
I prefer canonisation the other way round.
But I don't think it's set up either way, at the moment. (It's fronted by a CDN.)
I'll check if they allow me to configure that.
 
Well, it's a matter of taste I guess. Either way, canonization is better than none...but I think the www makes one look a little less savvy. Most of the people still using it are doing so for legacy reasons; they had a domain name before the web back when the web server was just one of many things.
But the web has won for the foreseeable future, and it's better to use your subdomain addressing for non-web services and accept that HTTP requests coming into your main domain are looking for a web server.
 
@HostileFork OH YES!!!
 
@HostileFork Heh, the way DNS works, there are actually a few good reasons pro www left.
No custom DNS servers needed for load-balancing at the apex.
 
11:50 AM
@pierre Glad you agree. :-) Well, do you like the logo? Any thoughts on why not to like it? I'm trying to get it accepted, I can't stand that R thing.
 
Sure. I love all Rebol logos, anyways. Even the old one ;-)
 
@earl Well, tell Google that...!
 
canonize: what does this exactly mean, in our context?
 
@HostileFork Google uses www.google.com as canonical name over google.com as well, doesn't it?
So more like, "tell Twitter that!".
 
A "canonical form" is just when you take many different ways of expressing something that mean the same thing, and you agree on a way of transforming all of them into a basic common form.
 
11:53 AM
@HostileFork ok
 
So if you are to canonize equivalent fractions... let us say 1/2, 2/4, 3/6, 4/8...all being the same...you reduce to the lowest integer ratio. So Canonize(3/6) => 1/2
It comes from religious terminology, I believe, but it is used widely to mean "authoritative" as well. Like to differentiate the official happenings in a comic book universe from what happens in fan fiction. There is the "canonical history" and then everything else. By a similar token, programmers often use the word "bless"
(As earl has done on the downloads page, by saying the executables are "not blessed by REBOL technologies" he is, in essence, saying they are "not canon")
But in this case we're talking about URLs. If both www.rebolsource.net and rebolsource.net have the same content, then some people will be using one URL and others will be using the other one. You'll have links from both kinds of places.
 
Should get rid of that left-over as well :) (The blessed, that is.)
 
As @earl pointed out, I was apparently wrong in remembering that google.com actually canonizes to www.google.com. I guess I just have seen so many sites doing it that I thought they must as well, but they're a counter-example actually.
You can still type google.com, but if you ever copy and paste out of your URL bar you'll be pasting a www.google.com/XXX address.
I firstly favor canonization over none, and secondly removing the www canonization wherever possible (it's kind of warty-looking).
 
By the way: are you guys in AltMe?
 
@pierre rgchris is. As am I (reluctantly). HostileFork has given up on AltMe a while back, IIRC.
 
12:01 PM
Yup, I'm out. I'm trying to push a wavefront out of that jail...to embrace a new generation of users. It's The Resistance...
 
hm...
 
(Note: I always wondered what the code in the Muse Resistance video being projected was. If you watch in HD, you can see it mentions things about gun positions and stuff...looks like it might be source for a first person shooter. Perhaps gibberish.)
 
@HostileFork I agree on pushing towards a more modern tool. However, altme looks quite efficient to me.
From my own little experience, coming into stackoverflow or into AltMe has been a pain...
 
@earl Hmmm...what about "Tentative logo design for Rebol 3 by HostileFork, and used by permission." ?
@pierre Well, StackOverflow's real asset to the Rebol community isn't so much about the chat, it's about becoming more present and using the good Q&A facilities.
And it is sort of about learning a new way of storing institutional knowledge. AltMe may have stored a lot of chats, but it's lousy for Q&A and so is Google Groups. StackOverflow is painting a way forward on that.
 
Yes. That's why I'm dreaming of some ideal tool, Rebol-powered of course (or Red-powered may be better, as far as I can see from my git logs on both projects...). See rebol.com/cgi-bin/blog.r?view=0518#comments rather
 
12:11 PM
@pierre Red-powered may be better, as far as I can see from my git logs on both projects. I hear you, but Rebol would start moving forward faster if Carl will designate some other people to manage merges...Ladislav or Earl or somebody. Perhaps a voting system where if Carl's not around but everyone else votes to take a change, it goes in.
I'm happy to not be in that position but rather gripe and be the one sending the pull requests. :-)
But I'd like to see quicker uptake and faster movement.
And I'd also like to sit down and crank through logo and marketing work for Red, but that idea is much newer. Based on Towers of Hanoi, and supporting DocKimbel's vision of seeing Red as being very "layered"
 
Yes, I agree. No change in the main rebol3 since... last year!
Auteur: Carl Sassenrath <cs2@rebol.com> 2012-12-31 18:55:39
Auteur du commit: Carl Sassenrath <cs2@rebol.com> 2012-12-31 18:55:39
Parent: b4e1c4de5f36fd28326d54823f9269a7ef954f34 (use parse for macro constructor)
Parent: e0154e712a27697282e8420cd58cdc3f129e4036 (Fix missing /local in make-boot.r)
Branche: master, remotes/origin/master
Suit:
Précède:

Merge pull request #57 from earl/misc-fixes
 
Give things a little time to grow.
 
It's still at the early stages, but I like the direction, and the associations with layering and computer science are very nice.
 
yes
wise
 
While Rebol itself is an old project, it's also still extremely young as an open source project.
 
12:15 PM
true
I am just worried by the fact that it may be killed (again) due to dispersion, etc.
 
As mentioned on AltME, dispersion won't be the cause.
 
As of today, when I want to do something useful, I'm stuck with my old Rebol2
 
To repeat: I think much will change when Carl designates people other than himself to take the merges. He indicated that he knew this would need to happen, but also notice that nothing happens quickly in his world--it was a while between when he knew the open sourcing need be done and when it happened. So he is not hurrying to this delegation decision either.
 
I don't think it will ever come down to delegation.
 
Every time I try the rebol3, its just catastrophic: so impossible to make any public advertisement now. As you suggested, earl, time is of the essence. Patience.
 
12:18 PM
@earl You don't think anyone else will get write access to the rebol/r3 repository?
As a "collaborator"?
 
I don't think it matters.
 
that would be sad...
then, another fork should be the "reference"?
but which one...
 
I'd rather not see that happen.
 
@pierre Rebol supports quite a lot of different usage patterns. It seems R3 is not yet supporting your particular niche, but that doesn't mean it's not already supporting other niches quite well.
 
Oops, I have to go: I'll be out in Sahara for a few weeks, without any Internet, so bye.
 
12:20 PM
@pierre Whoa. Enjoy the trip!
 
@pierre Have fun!
 
@earl Yes, you're right. I meant that I cannot evangelize myself, at the moment. It would be counter-productive.
 
I wonder if the Rebol conference will happen. I have a friend who moved to Prague to run Disney's mobile gaming unit there. Was thinking that if I could arrange my trip to visit him at the time of the conference then I'd go.
 
@earl Thanks, I'll try... I'm off to Sudan!
 
I, for example, don't use R2 anymore at all, except indirectly when working on Red. R3 already fits my needs far better.
 
12:22 PM
@earl Excellent! How do you cope with the command-line editing?
 
@pierre What problems do you have? Works fine for me, on Linux.
 
I find it absolutely horripilante! (no English word strong enough to express my feeling...)
no completion, line editing is a pain...
Rebol2 was better, but not perfect, though
 
On Linux, R2 generally was far worse for me. Extremely picky about keycodes, resulting in home/end not working half the time, cursor keys not working in the other half.
 
completion when you are typing an object name, for instance, and it gives you the right names (words), is super: but nothing like this in rebol3, afaik
oh yes? funny.
 
i've to confess, i never used completion for word names in rebol. only for filenames, where i don't miss it's absence in r3 much.
but in any case, "better" line editing is a rather low hanging fruit, doable without having to dive into the sources too deeply.
 
12:26 PM
Since 2000 (or 2001), I actually almost discovered completion in rebol2
No, actually not:
 
The Haiku build has bad REPL behavior, and I'm not sure how per-platform cases on this weird terminal stuff should be handled. #ifdef ? Is there a more general hook?
 
I discovered completion with csh, in 1990. But I could not afford to buy me an HP-UX to be able to use it...
Oops, I have to run. Bye!
 
@HostileFork src/os/posix/host-readline.c
Would have to find out what the actual weirdness is, to reason about a good strategy for where to put it. It's hard to say in general.
 
The kids ask questions about this stuff every now and again.
0
Q: Writing anywhere in a DOS window

ValmondI'm looking for a way to show a "DOS" output in a Roguelike fashion, ie. it loks like you have a DOS window filled with characters (the level) which can change or move when the user pushes buttons, clicks with the mouse etc. In a normal DOS window (say the output from a classic c++ program or .b...

 
@HostileFork I went with a plain "Logo and favicon designed by HostileFork, used by permission." for now.
 
12:32 PM
Well, I guess my goal (as yours) is to not be too scary like "we're taking over your project, now"
 
If you put up a page I can link the "Tentative logo design" to, I'll go with that wording.
But I'd rather not link to the rebol.net wiki page.
 
Well I can write a blog entry about the topic of the logo design and my thinking on it and its ownership. ?
Just cut to the chase, basically.
 
Sure, that would fit. No hurries, though. Just ping me, when you want the link updated :)
 
Okay, let me tap that up, won't take long.
 
 
3 hours later…
3:57 PM
@earl Well, here's a first draft of some of what I have to say on the matter.
 
 
8 hours later…
11:39 PM
@earl I think "Downloads are stand-alone executables, which are not compressed and do not require installation." should be the second sentence of the paragraph before the table, rather than following the table with two single sentences.
I also feel that reminding people that chmod +x is necessary on unix systems isn't as pedantic as one might think, as many people working with unix these days use it turnkey with package managers...and giving them an uncompressed binary download from a browser is highly uncommon.
That could be the first sentence before Note that those builds are "core" builds.
Also, you can link "HostileFork" directly to that article I wrote about the icons, rather than to my homepage.
 
11:58 PM
Also, I would say "these builds" and not "those builds"...and I wouldn't parenthesize "(unofficial)" in the paragraph text...it's already parenthesized in the heading.
 

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