« first day (2309 days earlier)      last day (1471 days later) » 

1:07 AM
>> do reb4.me/r/altjson
Module: JSON Parser/Encoder for Rebol 2 Version: 0.3.9 Date: 11-Feb-2017
** Access error: series is source or permanently locked, can't modify
** Where: if module catch either either --anonymous-- do
** Near: as word! spec/name ??
** Note: use WHY for more error information
@rgchris Do you have a ren-c version?
 
 
1 hour later…
2:09 AM
@rgchris I can understand maintaining a Rebol2 version of your tools, but is there a good reason to have anything based against a "stable R3-Alpha"? If something is critical to the level that it needs to be kept working despite the moving target of Ren-C, I'd actually prefer to see it backported to Rebol2 vs. have three different targets.
From my perspective, R3-Alpha has turned out to have only one notable benefit over Rebol2: being open source so if there's a bug you can fix it. In almost every other way its offerings do not outweigh its downsides. Every version of a thing it says it has (e.g. "unicode support") is sufficiently incomplete or broken to probably add up to a net negative.
And that "open source so if there's a bug you can fix it" point has become a non-issue since no one really backports fixes to R3-Alpha.
I've even (lightly) considered tweaking the bootstrap scripts used by Ren-C to build so that they work in Rebol2, just to further remove R3-Alpha from anyone's radar, and to make the compatibility shims that Ren-C worries about be used in Rebol2/Red migration to Ren-C.
So instead of r2r3-future.r, it would be r2red-future.r
There are a few big epic considerations that would change the shape of day to day coding, which have yet to be pushed through. I am near certain that = should be strict equality, with is and isn't the lax equality, where apostrophes in words are allowed (nod to @Adrian's input on that RE:use of apostrophes in other languages for non-contraction purposes). I've decided <> being "arrow shaped", hence a WORD!, and <{}> being empty tag is probably okay, nod to @MarkI on that.
The largest spectre is still virtual binding. I'm happy to report that generally, read-only source (a prerequisite) has gotten good press. From @ShixinZeng: "BTW, I love the feature that the source block is locked down in Ren-C. It took me more than a week to find out that we had a growing block causing memory problem. With Ren-C, it could have been minutes."
To remind people of how virtual binding will work, there will be BIND which mutates the bindings of its argument (as APPEND mutates the contents of its argument), and then there will be another operator which requires the argument to be locked and which gives back a version of that thing, also locked, but with new bindings...but this new thing will neither mutate nor make a deep copy to do it.
I've proposed this be the behavior of IN (which has its arguments swapped from BIND) but there could also be a BIND-OF or something which has the same parameter ordering as BIND
 
 
2 hours later…
4:11 AM
@HostileFork Wow.
 
4:30 AM
r3-alpha is as it is
we're moving forward ..
 
 
1 hour later…
5:44 AM
@rgchris I wasn't able to get altjson.r running under ren-c. In particular, I found that that I got errors in the header with type: 'module, the use of parse/all, the use of none? instead of blank?, the use of none! instead of blank!
and the use of [catch] throw in the load-json function
Also the use of join which I changed to adjoin
and there were some series that needed to be copied
 
 
2 hours later…
7:45 AM
@HostileFork It's not that I have any particular reverence for Alpha. As I see it: 1) R3A binaries are off-the-shelf, require no build environment and can be consistently deployed, 2) Ren-C is somewhat of a moving target—there's no 'stable' branch, no releases—I'm having to constantly revise code that was working against earlier versions, 3) I'm not always comfortable with choices made and would like to see how they pan out before internalising them.
See above wrt. AltJSON.
That's not to say I'm not willing to embrace the changes, see also the _/none accommodation in the HTTPD script.
 
8:24 AM
@rgchris do you have a working ren-c binary?
 
Things that Ren-C inherits from R3A that will be unlikely to revert to the R2 model or likely be supported in R2: ports, strings != binaries, unicode char!, map!, percent!, to name but a few. Rebol 2 is still useful to me for prototyping and that I still have a broad library there. However if I have something that works with Rebol 3 Alpha, it's not as far away from being Ren-C ready.
@GrahamChiu Several including one built today.
 
Ok, as you might have seen, I wasn't able to get the httpd.r and altjson.r working
it seems <rg-legacy> is broken at present and can't be used
 
Are you able to launch scripts from outside the console? I run mine straight from my text editor...
 
well, I can do from command prompt
don't think it makes any difference
 
8:39 AM
This version of AltJSON should work.
I don't know how return: is supposed to work.
 
>> load-json to-json [a: true]
== make map! [
    a true
]
 
** Script error: return doesn't have RETURN: enabled for function!
@GrahamChiu ^^ How to fix that?
 
are you returning any functions?
if so, i believe you then must use return
 
I am, it's not working for me.
It's the function prepare-listener
 
do you need
return func [event [event!] /local client] compose/deep [...
 
8:51 AM
That's what is giving me the above error.
Worked around that for now and am now getting a mysterious:
** Access error: series is source or permanently locked, can't modify
** Where: --anonymous-- if --anonymous-- open do catch either either --anonymous-- do trap either --anonymous--
** Sigh **
 
somewhere you're not copying a source series
 
Mysterious because one PROBE here works:
    probe server/locals: probe make object! [
Seems to object to setting server/locals ??
 
9:06 AM
>> source prepare-listener
prepare-listener: make function! [[server return:][
return: make function! [
["Returns a value from a function." value [<opt> any-value!]]
[exit/from/with (context-of 'return) :value]
]
(
func [event [event!] /local client] compose/deep [
either event/type = 'accept [
client: first event/port
client/awake: :wake-client
client/locals: make object! [
request: response: _
wire: make binary! 0
parent: (server)
protect [request response wire parent]
]
read client
]
false
]
seems okay doesn't it
 
9:20 AM
Right here I'm getting the ** Access error: series is source or permanently locked, can't modify. Cannot see where it's coming from.
@HostileFork @GrahamChiu ^^
 
can you give us your test script to repro the error?
do you have to copy before composing??
 
do %httpd.reb

server: open [
    scheme: 'httpd 8080 [
        probe request/action
        switch request/action [
            "GET /hello" [
                response/status: 200
                response/type: "text/plain"
                response/content: "Hello!"
            ]
        ]
    ]
]
Just to be clear—the function is built, I just can't seem to assign it to awake.
Works fine taking the parens off of (server), but then the function breaks.
 
9:40 AM
the published server still has the return issue
 
The one on this page? <-- these are the only Ren-C-Latest specific versions
 
Removing the types! from the function fixes the return error message
Now I just get the series is locked message
 
I don't get the return error message with the latest version there.
??
 
I meant the Prepare-listener function
I made the return error disappear by removing all the type! in the function definition
 
9:55 AM
I just removed that function from this version, should now only be the locked series error.
 
10:20 AM
Not getting further
Script: Web Server Scheme for Rebol 3 Version: 0.3.0 Date: 23-Feb-2017
Server running on port: 8001
** Script error: :server word is bound relative to context not on stack
** Where: construct has case make if --anonymous-- wake-up either until --anonymous-- wait do catch either either --anonymous-- do
** Near: binary! 1000 parent: ?? :server
 
 
2 hours later…
12:47 PM
@rgchris I am happy to discuss any concerns over the direction of the "vision". I think from my point of view that there have not been that many deep changes., yet. If anything I feel that the conservative points have been troublesome due to the difficulty of building a stronger narrative.
 
1:11 PM
@GrahamChiu Worlds first 'cast in stone' open source software.
 
 
3 hours later…
3:48 PM
@HostileFork I'm not disputing the need to change or indeed complaining that things are changing, just answering your question.
@iArnold @HostileFork Releases are useful—they give you something to build against. If I'm writing a series of scripts for Ren-C, what does that mean? For the Ren-C I built yesterday or the one I build in July? Who else is going to use it? Do you use it?
 
4:18 PM
posted on February 25, 2017 by OneArb

What is a convenient way to inspect face properties? When I use probe or source I get one gazillion lines. ? truncates the object property set listing. How to browse the entire Rebol object hierarchy? Thanks

 
 
1 hour later…
5:34 PM
@rgchris "Who else is going to use it? Do you use it?" - I've said we can put your projects as part of the tests, but who is going to commit? Are you sending PRs?
Two way street.
A lot of what I think about is evaluator mechanics, foundations to build a debugger, that kind of thing. It would be helpful if there was more guidance from Rebol-old-guard just on the polish issues.
I'm not questioning the usefulness of a release plan, but it's a bit of a luxury. Most things I have to decide for myself, based on usage over time, and that doesn't happen quickly.
Even something like locked source... it wasn't motivated by the user-facing points, but I think it does win out on those. I was worried it would be more troublesome than it is.
 
6:33 PM
My point on tactics is, the reason to be in this particular game is because you think that programming needs to be looked at in a new light. I still think the light is in there. I think we shed more light on it when we think about things like whether apostrophes should be legal in "keywords", when we commit to the idea of there not being "keywords", when we try the big and somewhat nonsensical ideas with binding.
It's not just about "getting things done", but it's also not not about that.
And R3-Alpha is--currently--not a point I see any serious stakeholder clinging to. I have inside information about how wantonly bad it was mechanically (and I'm sure Rebol2 has that badness in spades as well). It's possible to create your own stable release of Ren-C by picking a commit and saying "it worked there, I'm not going to merge for a while" if you really need to do that.
 
6:46 PM
0
Q: Why does SMART report my WD purple as red?

Benoit-Pierre DEMAINEI bought a Western Digital Purple disk, but SMART reports it as red: Model Family: Western Digital Red (AF) Device Model: WDC WD20EFRX-68EUZN0 Serial Number: WD-WCC4M2xxxxxxxx LU WWN Device Id: 5 0014ee 263467fc9 Firmware Version: 82.00A82 User Capacity: 2,000,398,934,016 bytes [2....

 
7:29 PM
@HostileFork I was under the impression that @respetech or Bo was using r3 alpha for his ameridroid and cameras. Am I wrong?
 
@GrahamChiu @respectech may be doing so, and like I say with the source availability, it's good because he can pilot his own ship...if something blocks him he can pay someone to have that block fixed.
I realize that not everyone is looking at this the same way I am, but I kind of feel you and @rgchris and @Brett are looking at it more or less how I do.
 
I do have rebolbot also in r3, and the chat program though that I had to give up as there were GUI issues I couldn't solve.
 
We want to see where this English-style source can go, without resorting to the "math" methods, e.g. Haskell. I still kind of wish you guys would spend a little more time with functional programming, enough to understand the contrast.
It is--literally--a philosophical divergence of "how to fix what ails software".
Every time I use Haskell I sort of weep for how "bad" Rebol is, but then, I have drawn these analogies between using a really advanced CAD/CAM tool and picking up a pencil.
 
I'm not unhappy with the ways things are going off ultimately we very a much more solid foundation
 
Every engineer has a good pencil in the pocket. It's kind of a thing. But then, you have to protect the pocket from the pencil.
 
7:35 PM
I'm wondering if the issues we had last night were in fact bugs
Did you look to see why that return message were occurring?
 
@GrahamChiu Well, a text message without context, vs. a full issue, is hard to process. Write me an issue.
Rebol is just the Lisp/Forth I wandered into, without much experience with either of the prior.
And when I look at Lisp and Forth code, I realize the urge for "why Rebol".
And when I look at Clojure, and Haskell, I realize that if all programming goes that direction--a big list of rules for what you can't do with a computer--that's stifling.
No matter how "right" it is.
 
7:57 PM
so last night github.com/rgchris/Scripts/blob/master/httpd.reb#L171 the prepare-listener function was complaining about return
@rgchris Did you fix the httpd script last night? The test script you wrote is working for me without return and series error messages.
 
@rgchris @GrahamChiu Since we're having some conversation on the questions of reliability or accountability, I know I haven't made what one would call "promises" per se. But I have spent more than a day or two unblocking people from the specific issues that block them from progress.
And I'm going to fix the r3-legacy issue, even if it just means loading the console code into lib
But it still is a good moment to have the conversation about who r3-legacy is really for, at this point.
 
@HostileFork can you run this please gist.github.com/gchiu/2140e0ef57d9cd5fbb61e38518c65f0f
It won't wipe your drive or mind
 
@GrahamChiu My system state is currently in the middle of a rather frustrating GC bug. I can git stash and build and do it if you really don't want me to fix what I'm doing.
Fine.
It's about 2 minutes
Though reproducing the debugger state is about 10 minutes
So after 12 minutes after I look at what you're doing I can look at what I was already doing.
And I actually have non-Rebol things to do today
 
8:14 PM
You don't have vms around?
 
@GrahamChiu I do, but honestly, the Surface Book is not as fluid as my desktop.
Nice hardware, awful OS
Windows 10 as hypervisor is much worse than OS/X
 
bring up new dos shell. Use a working binary of ren-c core. Run script.
and see if there's an obvious reason why this fails
If not, we can raise an issue
 
@GrahamChiu Repro'd. Let me look.
@GrahamChiu Hum, the PORT! got locked.
I do not know how that happened, but I will tell you shortly.
 
is the port a series??
 
"contexts" in Rebol are implemented as two arrays
So, yes. One array is the values, the other is the words that are the keys
The key array can be shared among objects with the "same spec", though obviously, the values are not shared.
Not sure how the port, a dynamic object, got locked
Could happen if you do a COMPOSE and put a port in the composition, I guess.
 
8:31 PM
so what's supposed to trigger it? When you modify source right?
and not a dynamic object.
 
@GrahamChiu Source is now locked by default, nothing you make is locked unless you lock it
 
and compose was working on a locked source?
 
I was just theorizing how something like this could happen, but let's not be Trump, and figure out what the actual data says.
I am also having lunch at 1:30 on a Saturday, so, don't expect immediacy.
 
You're late, it's now 9:34 on Sunday
 
Lately here in the US, it seems we're a bit behind the times, more than usual.
@GrahamChiu I need to step out for a moment, but I can confirm your issue. There are two things I'll get done for you today: one is fix this, the other is do the cop-out binding of the REPL/host into lib, so r3-legacy comes back online
 
8:41 PM
Ok, not my issue but @rgchris but we will be thankful!
 
@GrahamChiu Yup well, I'm glad to have users, though weekdays are usually better than weekends all things being equal.
 
I guess most of us only have much time in the weekends.
 
That's when I don't have time.
 
9:03 PM
@rgchris Releases give stable points to fall back upon. The Red 0.6.1 is unstable since merge of libRed in September/October.
 
9:30 PM
@HostileFork perhaps we should also have some "stable" releases as well which we can work with?
 
@HostileFork Just to be clear, I'm not griping about reliability or accountability (really not griping at all). My answer to your question is not something I'd fully considered or articulated until you'd asked. And there's no criticism in there though I concede it might seem pointed, was not intended to be.
 
9:44 PM
@HostileFork I get that my direct contribution isn't great (I'd suggest that my HTTPD scheme and REST scheme that I have in mind are things I believe should be part of a standard release—I recognise my efforts alone may not be enough to ensure the quality required of such a standard, hence a frustration that it can be hard to share those ideas, that work and have it tested), I do feel I've engaged new developments. I guess my perception may overplay my actual participation—well, I do what I can.
@GrahamChiu Not to the point that it was working on a build from freshly pulled source, was still getting the locked source error.
 

« first day (2309 days earlier)      last day (1471 days later) »