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12:47 AM
One thing I have to say @HostileFork is that I do see how my arguments tend toward the knee-jerk hand-waving old-is-right new-is-bad kind.
That sort of myopia needs to be challenged at every turn, so, please continue doing it ... though I know I don't have to say that. :)
 
1:05 AM
@MarkI It's worth saying. :). But I think the back and forth produces better answers eventually.
I think the challenges to the difference in asymmetry between left tight and right tight, plus bringing up quoting, then going with my rule seeking a "common calling convention", laid the groundwork for what may well be The Answer. Feeling good about it, at least for now....
 
@HostileFork ::concurrence::
 
Hey @HostileFork @MarkI . BoneOS BoneOSMeta Is Up ;)
The download page is still in its works :/
 
 
1 hour later…
2:22 AM
posted on October 25, 2016 by T UA

http://www.red-lang.org/2016/03/060-red-gui-system.html In the first example script on this page age needs to be initialized to "" - otherwise parse complains about not accepting none

 
 
2 hours later…
4:29 AM
@HostileFork @Respectech Needs the or tags.
Loosely the convention is all Rebol questions get the tag, questions specific to Rebol 2 get the additional tag, and similarly .
(there is also a tag)
 
4:56 AM
@rgchris Ah, missed it didn't have it. Fix'd.
@rgchris Outside of backwards compatibility, can you think of any reason not to like the "complete expression" rule for enfixed operators on both the left and right... which gives it "left to right for pure infix" while not needing to tag any parameters with "curtailed" (<tight>) evaluation?
One notable casualty: not, because not x = y would be in a situation where not x was considered complete, so that would be (not x) = y. You'd have to say not (x = y). This would make Rebol more like other languages (C/JavaScript/etc.) in terms of precedence of ! vs ==...but Rebol has the advantage of the UNLESS, UNTIL forms.
 
@HostileFork I'm not quite sure the intricacies of how each variant works, but I do agree that it's more important to get right than to accept what went before.
 
@rgchris Good, yes. Well the "getting it right" part has a lot of aspects--one aspect that I have been particularly sensitive to is this focus on "OneFunction" so that there's only one function type, and that the difference you get when you "enfix" it is simply that it collects its first argument from the left.
So once you disconnect the function from a "lookback word", via :+ and :add, then it would be the same entity.
That aspect came out when we started messing with these <defer> annotations, which began turning them into different entities. So the lack of the existence of an OP! type separate from FUNCTION! was not as useful as it was...because even though you had a FUNCTION!, you now had these functions with weird parameter gathering rules regarding infix within that parameter.
So it was as convoluted, though arguably more, since the annotation could be on any parameter.
I mentioned in a GitHub issue comment how there's going to be weirdness somewhere, but what happens in this model is that the weirdness isn't "some strange lookahead modification under a recursion level of the right hand side of infix operators". Instead the weirdness is a property of the last argument of things.
Yet infix operators of arity two, which need some "weird right hand effect", fit under the umbrella. Because their right hand side is also their last argument.
Hence the mechanic driving why add 1 2 * 3 competes add 1 2 before the * 3 winds up being the same mechanic for why 1 + 2 * 3 completes 1 + 2 before the * 3. Same effect, different and more uniform reason, that you don't explain by way of changing lookahead rules on a parameter.
And the argument I make is that from a sort of "natural language" standpoint, a Rebol reader has a way of seeing complete expressions (as obviously the evaluator can, as well).
 
5:16 AM
0
A: Rebol2: Change-dir to absolute filepath not working

ThackerayIt's failing because Rebol does not see %C/Users/thompson/Downloads/ as an absolute path - it is missing the magic leading slash, so is seen as a relative path. Absolute path is this: %/C/Users/thompson/Downloads/ So easy fix, if you are sure you do not have that leading slash: >> test: pi...

 
One that I always wish was better is length-of foo > 10
 
That would work under this rule.
You can transform complete expressions into the left slot. some-prefix a1 a2 a3 b1 b2 b3 => a1 a2 a3 some-infix b1 b2 b3 if a1 a2 a3 formed a complete expression for an argument. SET-WORD!s can't be counted in that transformation, per notes above.
 
What would big-enough be here?— big-enough: length-of foo > 10
 
LOGIC!... SET-WORD!s and SET-PATH!s are not part of the reach back for "complete expressions"
If they were, then x: 1 + 2 would mean x would be 1.
 
Sounds good to me.
 
5:27 AM
Feel free to come up with pathological examples. Like I said, the big test breaker I found was not, because of the common-in-tests (though not common in R3 mezzanine sources or my own code) use of if not blah = blah or such.
Which has alternatives of if not (blah = blah) or unless blah = blah or if blah != blah.
 
I'm not certain NOT is an outlier. You would want it to work that way in a logical expression: not x and y right?
(not x) and y
 
It would work that way, and yes it is generally the case in languages that unary ops are higher precedence than infix binary ones.
But it is a change.
>> not false and true
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
Bad example.
Well, anyway, it's a change. :-) That was true because not (false and true), not because (not false) and true
 
Heh.
 
5:43 AM
@MarkI Pointed out that there could be other cases where you use a comparison output to pass a logic as a parameter, for instance my usually disliked PICK with a LOGIC!. So now if you said pick [a b] foo = bar you'd get (pick [a b] foo) = bar.
But that was when comparison operators were being considered. With math operators using the same rule, you'd have to worry about that for pick [a b c d] 1 + 2.
Now interpreted as (pick [a b c d] 1) + 2
So infix operators are trying to be "parent nodes" in the "sentence structure" of the code.
They're aggressive about seeking it, with left ones taking precedence over right.
 
I'd be inclined to suggest that it's still better as the inverse intent is clearer: pick [a b c d] (1 + 2) is easier to read than (pick [a b c d] 1) + 2
 
That's one way of looking at it. If you're going to be paying for parentheses, pay for them around more localized single arguments.
 
Yep.
 
Though I don't have a whole lot of field experience yet to back it up, my feeling from looking at examples is that the operators tend to seem like natural "dividers" separating their left and their right when reading a mix of code and symbols.
So you naturally are inclined to want to see the complete expressions if they are there.
And for a complete tangent, if anyone hasn't seen David Pumpkins, do so now:
@rgchris Well a good sign that you like the rule; it is uniform and relatively easy to explain; and I think that the edge cases that don't require the left hand argument to complete can be done with quoting. There's some support for quoting the left-hand arguments of enfixed things (and there could be more, with some work). But the good thing there is that unlike <tight> it's already a parameter convention that exists and we take for granted today for prefixed function arguments.
So we could get away with--hopefully--one function type, and no more parameter settings than already exist.
An example of a thing that can't work without it would be ELSE, for instance. if condition [true-clause] else [false-clause] depends on if condition ([true-clause] else [false-clause]) as the interpretation. But if condition [true-clause] is a complete expression.
But the concept there is to let quoted left args of enfixed functions "win" and stop the left hand evaluation chain. So it can quote that block.
ELSE is an outlier in any case, but interesting to think of a way to keep it working that doesn't require another parameter definition concept.
 
6:19 AM
0
A: Rebol2: Change-dir to absolute filepath not working

sqlabThere are many ways how to do it, as was already shown the rebol way test: %/C/Users/thompson/Downloads/ the linux way test: "test: /C/Users/thompson/Downloads/" the Windows way test: "test: C:/Users/thompson/Downloads/" test: copy find/tail test " " test: to-rebol-file test

 
 
5 hours later…
11:18 AM
Just trying something out here:
>> 1 + 2 * 3
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 9
 
So, that will stay 9 under new infix rules, right?
>> pick [1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1] 1 + 2 * 3
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 1
 
But, that is going to become 9 also, like:
>> (pick [1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1] 1) + 2 * 3
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 9
 
11:22 AM
Essentially, any expression in the "last argument" slot will be parsed differently then if it were not in any argument slot or not in the last slot, am I right?
And if I were to change :+ to be "tight" on its left argument, then 2 * 3 + 1 will also change how it is parsed and will stop being 7 and become 8, right?
 
@MarkI Correct.
 
I may get used to it, but it is extremely hard to read it that way for me currently. I find it painfully "special-cased" and "non-orthogonal", to use my reasons.
 
@MarkI I disagree quite heavily.
At least, as a study in contrasts with the way it was done before.
 
With refinements, you don't even necessarily have the same argument being the last argument.
 
No, but you still (as an author) need to know where the expression ends.
And it (as an evaluator) knows also.
 
11:30 AM
So, add a refinement, add its args, then go back and change what used to be its last argument expression.
 
Huh?
 
If you are editing your code and adding a refinement with args to an existing function call site.
 
Yes, if you add a refinement and it has arguments, you must also add arguments corresponding to that.
 
And now you must also change one of the previous arguments that worked just fine.
 
How so?
You'd only have to change if you removed arguments.
 
11:32 AM
Becuase it is now parsed differently, since it is no longer the last argument!
 
You're the one who said "parsed differently" but the differently is about the idea of determining where an expression ends. When you add an argument to something, you have to add it at the point of ending, you can't add the argument arbitrarily to the end of a block somewhere at random.
I can't change append [a b c] 'd print "Hi" to append/dup [a b c] 'd print "Hi" 3 and expect /dup to get the 3.
 
Right, meaning add 1 2 ends at the 2, but 1 + 2 doesn't end at the 2, and for that matter 2 doesn't end at the 2.
 
So if you add an argument to something like pick [1 1 1] 2 + 1, you do pick/blah [1 1 1] 2 arg + 1, not pick/blah [1 1 1] 2 + 1 arg
Which is the same rule you'd apply anywhere else, namely add the arg at the end of the expression, not after something that's part of another expression.
I think you're tripping yourself up by saying the last argument is "parsed differently".
 
See my last post.
Wait a sec.
Maybe I have been looking at this wrongly.
 
Frequently I feel the need to cite Richard Feynman's speech on magnets
 
11:39 AM
I can actually tell you how magnets work.
 
> "I can't explain that attraction in terms of anything else that's familiar to you. For example, if I said the magnets attract like as if they were connected by rubber bands, I would be cheating you. Because they're not connected by rubber bands ...
> and if you were curious enough, you'd ask me why rubber bands tend to pull back together again, and I would end up explaining that in terms of electrical forces, which are the very things that I'm trying to use the rubber bands to explain, so I have cheated very badly, you see."
 
Anyway, back to the point here.
In this brave new world of infix.
There is no way to make it behave backwards-compatibly.
Even if I could make all functions "loose" on their last argument, that would make only the non-infix function call sites compatible.
 
You can achieve some limited backwards-compatibility with it telling you where it can't help you via quoting.
 
Because of ONE-FUNCTION, their infix forms will also be "loose" on their last argument, breaking 1 + 2 * 3 again.
 
But, as long as <tight> exists, and you use that for your ops, you are backwards compatible.
 
11:43 AM
See above.
What?
 
As proven by the current committed code, which has the behavior by default but overrides it with <tight> forms of all infix operators, there is a solution for those who are interested in backwards compatibility and want to take the code in that direction.
 
Walk me through it again please, I can't see how that can be.
 
If every single +, -, =, etc. marks both left and right args as tight, then the behavior of the code is the historical one.
 
The two expressions 1 + 2 * 3 and add 3 1 + 2 * 3.
Remember, if you make + tight then add is tight.
 
No, because add and + have different specs.
In that case. You don't make add tight, you make + tight
 
11:46 AM
Erm ... I guess I don't understand ONE FUNCTION then.
I can tell if somebody has passed me :+ by calling SPEC-OF?
 
Okay, so now you are delving into why I don't like the compatibility shims, and I don't want tight to exist.
But it does exist, and if you want to live in the world where it exists, you now have the calling convention divergence I wished to avoid.
 
So, goodbye one function then. Very sad indeed.
 
So I'm asking the Future Forward thinkers to realize we don't actually want it as the way the operators are defined.
 
Good luck.
 
And we only keep it temporarily as long as we're moving code bases along, then kill <tight>
Not sure what your problem is.
 
11:49 AM
I don't have a problem HF. What's bothering you?
 
"So goodbye one funciton, and good luck" does not seem to convey a belief that in a world where <tight> wrappers are not used, and instead the "left-to-right" behavior comes from the new logic, and code is updated for it... that "OneFunction" is essentially achieved.
The tight wrappers that exist are to implement <r3-legacy>. Barring some disastrous outcome of the new rules, I would personally be happy to go ahead and switch over. @ShixinZeng has old code which is written with the old rules he doesn't want to go over necessarily today or tomorrow, and if anyone ever runs Red code then perhaps running that too would be useful. So it may stick around for those purposes.
So mostly, I'm looking to see if anyone can point out a disaster emerging from the new rules. And @rgchris likes some properties of it, like length-of foo > 5 working, and doesn't see not x and y being (not x) and y instead of not (x and y) as a bad thing.
Because the thing using the new form (and no <tight>) gives us, as you seem to absorb now, is the same parameter marks for :+ and :add
Which is an important thing--and so if we can say we like the infix rules just as well as before (or, even better) then that's a winner.
And me--being very accomodating--offer legacy users who want their code to run unmodified a parameter-marking attribute, <tight>. If you use it, you live in something mirroring the old world--almost exactly like how OP! is a separate type of function you get passed.
You're kind of no worse off than when you had to accomodate OP! specially as a parameter if you choose that world.
 
12:24 PM
It seems my words misled you.
"Goodbye one function" was for backward-compatible insisters, and that is sad for them.
"Good luck" was a sincere wish that everybody, including me, sees the benefits of this new operator logic.
I don't think the "benefits" of ONE FUNCTION are user-facing enough to be significant here.
 
@MarkI Well, I look forward to doing some nice code comparisons against Red samples, armed with this and the other things that aren't deemed significant by some. They'll have unsets in blocks and people writing code that takes FUNCTION! parameters but wonder why it doesn't work with ACTION!, and then pass in an OP! one day to something that needs a comparator and have it reach backward, etc. etc.
A problem I perceive is that a lot of people don't see things as being necessary like definitional returns or specific binding or whatever because the things they're doing aren't that novel.
People could use the language for years and not know there weren't definitional returns because they never tried to write their own loop construct.
But this is something that distinguishes more of what I'd call an application from a language. An application is a fixed set of features. A language is something designed on premises such that you can compose it in ways that weren't specifically anticipated by the designer and yet it still works.
@MarkI Something to realize is that when you say "user facing" there is a category of library writers who are sophisticated users--whose ability to do what they need and capacity for remaining interested--has downstream effects on users, even if they don't directly face it.
 
 
2 hours later…
2:18 PM
@HostileFork Of course, but they can fully parenthesize their expressions if they want to, or for that matter never use infix.
Infix only provides a second way to express what can be expressed in pure function calls.
Therefore infix is important only insofar as it:
(a) increases readability, however that is measured
(b) reduces complexity, say by requiring fewer parentheses, and/or
(c) saves typing some other way, like because the function names are now only one or two characters.
None of those things are important to a library writer, except perhaps (a), but to a sophisticated user that's still not that important.
And yes, all these issues go away if the dialect at the console prompt differs from the DO dialect. But then we'll have two languages.
Hm.
We could actually rewrite the code as it is read in, so when you SAVE x: 1 + 2 it gets saved as x: (add 1 2).
A terrible, terrible idea, of course ... but it's an interesting perspective.
You just have to mold out your expression, and you'll see how what you are trying to do looks like when it's uninfixed and parenthesized.
You have to know it's code, and you have to be able to get the arity and infixedness of the function-words, but aside from that ... :/
Hm again. The "know it is code" and "have to be able to get the arity and infixedness of its words" is exactly the set of restrictions that are applied to code (because it is code, not data) that is entered at the console prompt or passed to DO.
 
3:17 PM
You know what @HostileFork? You have won me over.
As long as x: 1 + 2 still sets x to 3, I am willing to put up with add 2 * 2 2 * 2 now giving 12.
If I need an infix expression as the final argument in a function call, I now feel that's mixing two paradigms, and I am OK with that requiring parentheses.
I also agree with @rgchris that length foo > 10 and not x and y are improved by this change.
Strangely, I believe those last two examples are now more uniform, in that what's left of the operator is reduced even if it's not another operator.
I did not see that coming.
Awesome, awesome stuff HF, really good work.
One question though, what happens if a function's final parameter is quoted? I can see two possibilities:
(1) no difference
(2) it "loosens" the final parameter, essentially doing the opposite of what quoting any other parameter does.
I also have a similar question about quoting the first parameter when infixed. I am not worried however. This is going to be great, I can feel it.
LOL this is even going to work for postfix, that is, unary infix.
 
 
1 hour later…
4:46 PM
posted on October 25, 2016 by Steven White

I do not yet speak the REBOL as she should be spoken.  I am wondering about the 'vernacular' way to express a condition, where I have some code (for example) and I want to find out if it is (for example) a valid value of A or B or C or D.   In COBOL I can say:     IF CODE = 'A' OR 'B' OR 'C' OR 'D' In SQL I can say:     CODE in ('A',

 
 
1 hour later…
6:15 PM
@MarkI As long as none of us change our minds, this is good news. :-)
I agree that it's not immediately obvious that this is a simpler rule. Realizing that it is simpler comes first from the implementation.
But I think that it is simpler would be borne out by our testing-people-with-examples table.
Yet as I said, even if it were merely equal, that it's a net improvement is really from paring down to one interface for FUNCTION!, which has an intrinsic value, which I am sure would bear out in interesting examples of passing functions to functions.
@MarkI The only area of conflict is if you have quoting both directions. back-quote: enfix :quote, z: quote foo back-quote. In the non-tight future, quoting the left argument of enfix still has to kick in the mechanic that "tight" uses, so what happens there?
I'm okay with "error"
 
Hi
 
@rebolek Hey. Saw you made a gitter client.
 
6:30 PM
@HostileFork Not made, I am working on one.
It works, but it’s far from finished.
 
Half-made, then.
 
Well, 1/10-made ;)
Hm, if Stack Overflow chat has API comparable to Gitter, it wouldn’t be hard to support them both.
 
@GrahamChiu had a chat client in progress with R3/View, got hung up on some view aspects though I think.
But the network part worked.
And @RebolBot speaks the chat API.
 
Good to know, I take a look at some resources.
True.
 
6:39 PM
@HostileFork Thanks, it looks pretty easy
 
At one point someone had to be logged in with a password to grab the cookie, but that code may be from after that was automated to do the login and get the cookie for you to make it easier. You can ask @johnk.
But StackOverflow chat is more or less doomed. It looked promising at one point, but they themselves internally switched to Slack. :-( So with the people who work at SO not using it themselves for work communication, it is unlikely to evolve.
 
Oh. I didn’t know that.
 
If I had to guess what was going to happen is that this chat will be offloaded to something like gitter or another service someday, that there'd be a partnership with someone where chat is a core business model. But StackOverflow decided jobs and resumes and such was their revenue angle.
Which I imagine is a lot easier to monetize than chat, though Slack did this somehow. I can't stand Slack.
 
I never used it, so I don’t know. But I haven’t read much good things about it.
 
As I said, Slack proved something though... AltME must be pretty great, because Slack does the same thing...only worse...and is worth billions of dollars.
The guy who developed Miaou is still doing it, and it's open source...started as a SO chat clone: dystroy.org/miaou/static/intro.html
 
6:51 PM
Hm, that’s pretty usual these times. If you do something that has been done before, but worse, you are going to be a billionaire ;)
 
Yep. So it's surprising that StackOverflow didn't come first, and then Experts Exchange was the profitable result of doing all kinds of terrible sucky things to it. The market actually endorsed a revision of something that came before, where the new thing ripped out all the bad ideas.
 
As we say here "the exception confirms the rule"
 
Anyway, how's programming in Red these days? Relatively smooth? If not, what's the main areas of trouble?
 
Bugs, but that’s understandable, it’s in alpha.
 
Well, Red's at some transition period - moving to libRedRT - we will see, how it goes ...
 
6:59 PM
@pekr When not compiling, libRedRT hardly matters
 
It matters for the embedding. Similar to Ren-C imo ...
 
@rebolek User natives here are offering some interesting interface to C, coming all as part of one executable still: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/blob/master/tests/misc/fib.r#L5
 
@pekr I do not argue. I just haven’t compiled something beside the toolchain for some time. So libRedRT is nice to have, but does not affect me right now that much.
When/if I move back to a project I was working on, I would really appreciate it :)
 
I am not arguing either. In fact, I wonder, if there is any interest in using Red runtime in terms of other environments .... embedded
 
Getting compile times from minute to seconds is awesome
 
7:03 PM
ah, that's an argument I forgot about :-)
 
I did not ;) I wrote test suite for all regressions and it takes about an hour to finish on my i7.
It would take about a minute with libRedRT.
 
OTOH I am not yet used to hava to distribute two files - exe, plus dll :-) hopefully we still can have one ugly monstrose red.exe :-)
 
You can have one ugly monstrose red.exe, but it takes more time to compile it :)
just use -r option
 
Some of the Microsoft SysInternals apps, like process explorer and such, contain the DLLs as embedded resources and extract them to temp directories and run them from there.
 
I wonder about all that stuff, not being knowledgeable enough ... in the past I have used regular compiler/linker, which resulted into one .exe and no libraries, yet it was able to do incremental compiling ...
 
7:09 PM
@HostileFork Hm, as an old Amigian, I have to ask - why not RAM disk? :)
 
If the executable image is uncompressed, why not run directly from in the image? Well, it usually comes down to how an API was built. Today's valid concerns for the ideal world is: how many levels of indirection are you willing to pay for in performance and potential security problems.
But yes, a unified virtual addressing scheme that abstracts what kind of storage underlies the thing is something people have been trying to do for a long time... and it would be nice if your executable had its own filesystem to address into. OS/X does this (applications are directories).
 
@HostileFork When you are talking about indirection - my Gitter client converts Markdown text to Lest and Lest to Rich Text Dialect and then RTD to Draw. So there are three levels of indirection, but IMO everyone of them is worth it.
2
 
Interestingly the tcc embedded compiler has a way of compiling into memory, and then the host executable can add its own internal functions so it behaves as a DLL, and it does this in a platform-independent way. That's pretty good.
@rebolek In engineering you transform things from one domain to a domain in which it is easy to work with, and then transform back. time domain => frequency domain (processing) => time domain
 
@HostileFork Oh, FFT. I know that from additive synthesis ;-)
 
@pekr Yeah a big monstrose Red.exe must be worth millions, the real one is just too small to be any good ;-)
 
7:24 PM
@iArnold You mean the 700 MB Red installation that will take 7-10GB on HDD? ;)
 
@rebolek Yes, with a dash of cloud dependency, so you must have a fast internet connection to use it, even if you only run local scripts. Wait a minute, did that Red installer really fit on an ancient CD-ROM??
 
@iArnold Just the basic version without GUI
 
No room for all those pixels!
 
8:27 PM
5 hours ago, by MarkI
As long as x: 1 + 2 still sets x to 3, I am willing to put up with add 2 * 2 2 * 2 now giving 12.
 
@HostileFork Hey hostile are you familiar with Makefile?
 
@MarkI @rgchris One potentially prescriptive vision of enfix could be that it will only run after complete expressions, and error otherwise. So add 2 * 2 2 * 2 would be an error, and you'd have to change that to add (2 * 2) 2 * 2.
@Dsafds Yep, though not as familiar as the people in the tag.
 
@HostileFork Ok maybe you can help me answer the question how i can make variable assignments under a label... This doesn't seem to work :
all:
	i686-elf-gcc $(GCCPARAMS) -o itoa.o -c itoa.c -I ../../../ -ffreestanding
	$(eval LIBC_OBJECTS += stdio/itoa/itoa.o)
 
@HostileFork Hate it. But there are other problems I haven't worked out yet.
 
@Dsafds I'd probably look at the same resource you're looking at, and if it isn't working, I'd ask a question.
137
A: Define make variable at rule execution time

e.JamesIn your example, the TMP variable is set (and the temporary directory created) whenever the rules for out.tar are evaluated. In order to create the directory only when out.tar is actually fired, you need to move the directory creation down into the steps: out.tar : $(eval TMP := $(shell mkt...

 
8:34 PM
@HostileFork Yea i looked at that didnt work.. Ok ima ask. Thanks :)
 
I think I'm leaning towards disallowing making a function into an operator if said function quotes its first argument.
That fixes your conflict example, in that postfixers like 'back-quote must always be unquoted.
This way, parameter quoting cannot actually change how operators and functions interact.
If you want a different evaluation ordering, use parentheses. So that remains the same in the new world. :)
 
@MarkI Quoting backwards is a feature used by x: default [...] and [...] else [...] at this point in time.
 
0
Q: Assignments under label

amanuel2I'm trying to assign a variable inside a label , by adding to the variable like so: all: i686-elf-gcc $(GCCPARAMS) -o itoa.o -c itoa.c -I ../../../ -ffreestanding $(eval LIBC_OBJECTS += stdio/itoa/itoa.o) This doesn't seem to work as it adds nothing to the variable what so ever when i...

 
I'm not so worried about the conflict; it can just error if it comes up in practice.
Speaking of byte-size insanity, so there's this thing T-Mobile does where they have a giveaway every Tuesday, and you have to install an app on your phone to participate in the giveaway. You get like a free subway sandwich or something if you run it on the day. The size of the app for playing the little free-sub game? 59.23 megabytes
I want to see a teardown of what's in it.
It has a bunch of random stuff where you do simulated scratch-off games and roulette wheels, but still.
 
@HostileFork Does 3 + x: default 2 result in 5 as you see it?
Because that's a lot of lookahead. There's even more in 4 + y: z: aa: qq: default 7 ...
 
8:44 PM
@MarkI Yes, results in 5 with x set to 2
Doesn't seem to require that much lookahead; it works with the current logic.
 
We are changing that logic!
 
The change has been made, I can test such examples just by saying +: enfix :add to get rid of the interim compatibility.
Others may do the same if they wish to play with the proposal.
 
What?
 
Although the committed version of Ren-C is at the moment using those little stubs with <tight> on them to act like historical R3-Alpha, you can override that by just setting the operators to ordinary enfixed versions of the prefix functions.
And then see what examples will do, if they are working in practice today.
 
I thought you deleted the <tight> branch.
 
8:50 PM
No, I said <tight> has to exist as long as one wants to be able to define a set of operators that act like R3-Alpha or Red.
But, I don't want these to be used in the default definitions, so I'd like us to think it through and consider throwing that switch, and pushing them to be used only in codebases that haven't been (or don't want to be) upgraded for the new model.
The current base-infix.r is a bunch of little <tight> stubs
If you're saying that quoting the left side of an enfixed operator is a challenging general case that requires more lookahead, yes.
Right now it doesn't work in the general case. It works only in some cases.
 
Yes, thanks. Whew. At least I said something.
 
Right now it works for SET-WORD!s, inert things like ANY-STRING!s and integers, etc.
I don't know to say that it requires "more lookahead" exactly, so much as the way things work would need rewiring that makes the lookahead less localized.
You need to check at different times.
 
And we also have to remember that we are dual-purposing quoting. Someone might want to "tighten up" an operator without having to DO the argument.
 
 
1 hour later…
10:02 PM
I know this came up before, but should we consider BLANK! a value for the purposes of default?
If we model DEFAULT as supposed to be giving a value to something that might not have one, is BLANK! a legitimate value to be defaulted to, or is it basically just a reified version of nothing that should not be considered a value by DEFAULT?
It seems to me that, given you can't put "voids" or absence of values in blocks, that maybe blank should be given an honorary "not a value" status for this purpose.
@johnk Some recent intrigue on creating a "uniform rule" for enfix/infix parameter gathering that is unlike the previous lookahead suppression rules (now called <tight>, and hopefully can go away long term). If you can piece it together from the threads feel free, otherwise ask questions.
 

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