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12:00 AM
But... no, ugly. :-)
 
12:14 AM
So I have concluded that infix-ness is a property of words and not of functions. e.g. +: :add | set-infix '+ true. The nasty property it gets is that it's sticky, e.g. it's not cleared when you reassign it, because otherwise you wind up tampering with key bits on every assignment of every variable to make sure the infix bit is clear.
So if you said +: 10 | +: :append then the + would still be infix, you'd have to turn it off with set-infix '+ false. That's lightly disconcerting as one usually thinks once you've overwritten a value like that, you "understand it" in terms of usages.
 
>> source print
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
print: make native! [[
    "Outputs a value followed by a line break."
    value [any-type!] "The value to print"
]]
 
So do we have access to this table of function pointers so that we can make print do anything?
 
@GrahamChiu In user code, no. But this is why I am suggesting that PRINT speak to a port scheme...and just have it so that port schemes are relatively easy to write as extensions.
But also possible to write in Rebol
 
Yeah, in forth such words are deferred so that they can be vectored to a different word
The meaning can change on the fly
Just another level of indirection
In Rebol we do use ports for that
But that does mean less flexibility
 
12:25 AM
Inflexible how?
You can override PRINT the word in your own modules however you want.
 
If you decide later on you want something else to happen, you have to rewrite your port definition
 
Well you can do whole replacement of a word within scopes that you have the power to replace that word.
 
Whereas in forth, you save the current behavior of needed, revector it, and then restore the previous behavior
So print changes from working with a line terminal, a serial port, a screen, or a qt widget
 
If you really want the feature of "globally change the meaning of this word absolutely everywhere when it's looked up as a function" and subvert what people thought, it could be a "feature" of the module system. If you call that a feature.
 
Yes, that's what I mean
 
12:30 AM
Terrible idea.
 
Thank you
 
You're welcome. But the thing is, you can have it within reason via the idea of redefining the word in a scope you do control.
I think that really, the best idea for doing "global systemic replacements of meaning" is through a hook that's different than the word lookup hook.
And anyone who wants to be a candidate for that global systemic replacement of meaning cooperates in doing so.
 
That's why we have to have words like emit, since we can't redefine print that used by other functions
 
Rebol has too many cases of things like receive-fax: function [url /print num-pages] [... print ...] to make it a good idea to try and hook there.
 
See, we could change the behavior of print there to email instead
Or take help
Instead of printing to console, we could just change print to post to a web page instead
 
12:35 AM
Well, anyway, I do feel I've made some slight progress in the explanation of what I think needs to be done...and maybe even to the point of taking a shot at switching over the existing "devices" to use port-like dispatch via Rebol function calls instead of C-and-FFI-style arguments.
 
Appreciated
 
I wonder how much of the parameterization could just be done with Rebol types. Anywhere you would pass a char*, pass a BINARY!, etc.
 
Rebol types can be matched to all c types?
 
All C types could be turned into binaries and copied as bits. Not super meaningful to do so, and costs you overhead. But the main thing being that if you have two sides speaking a protocol and only one knows how to encode and decode the bits, it's bad for a protocol definition.
 
1:04 AM
@GrahamChiu Hey, that c4droid thing you sent me supports Qt 5
@giuliolunati Have you seen? play.google.com/store/apps/…
 
1:33 AM
@HostileFork yeah, so when is ren-garden running on Android?
 
@GrahamChiu Lots of other things to process first, but I guess it is promising that people are making it seem like C++11 Qt5 programs on Android are building on the phone or tablet itself.
It may not be that hard, given that Ren-C already runs on various Androids.
 
so can't Red build too on android without all the NDK stuff?
 
@GrahamChiu What do you mean by the phrase "NDK stuff"? You mean "build an app on a phone directly without making an .APK on a host machine and transferring it over?"
NDK is kind of a collection of concepts, including the concept of how native code is packaged and under what filenames in an APK, and how to cross the boundary to native code from Java-or-Whatever-Android-Thinks-It-Uses-Now and back.
 
without using Android studio
 
posted on May 24, 2016 by hostilefork

Consider the following raises-error? function: raises-error?: function [arg [any-value! <...>]] [ trap/with [take arg | false] [true] ] The spec has zero fixed arguments, and one variadic argument...which it TAKEs once. Because the variadic is not quoted, the behavior of TAKE is to evaluate the next expression. The premise is to be able to trap errors in the argument evaluation

 
1:45 AM
I remember before trying to follow some demo to build an apk and it required downloading 100s of mbs of stuff
 
I believe Red's goal was to have a basic Java-ish "shim" as a host which then could be packed up with compiled code and an interpreter into an APK, and to do things like "signing the .jar" using dedicated code that was not the standard jarsigner. I do not know what means C4droid uses for these tasks.
 
Anyway, it got too complex a task for me so I gave up
I did the demo where Red built a red exe apk directly
 
2:15 AM
I guess rebolbot won't be running ren-c anytime soon if all the non essential stuff is being stripped out
 
 
3 hours later…
4:48 AM
Red needed some packages, but all the toolchain got reimplemented, so you will not need any of that. Well, that's how I understand the situation ...
 
5:38 AM
@pekr I guess there's no news on this front?
@johnk any progress on the rebolbot for me?
 
Not yet. Android branch needs a big merge, the wrapper should be done though. If I remember correctly, the wrapper basically allows to instantiate any JAVA class, call methods, etc. - should be solid.
 
what gui is he going to use?
 
You can look at qtxie's github account, there is also aapt packaging tool, so I think that the idea is really to get .apk and ideally even to submit to the Play store ...
Not sure I understand the question - Android level GUI, no underlying Linux stuff
Even today you can produce and executable, which will run on your Android phone. But - that's not a proper integration - you have to allow to run code from non Play store sources, which is a security setting user has to do. Red is going to provide proper Android app development ...
If I remember correctly, Cyphre's aproach was exactly that - porting R3 to ARM and making GUI run. But that's far from having Android API available.
Even upcoming LibRed 0.6.1 release is going to be intersting. It should provide (if my understanding is correct) Red as a dynamic library, so you can call it from outside. It will also add the ability to load libraries in R/S from runtime. And later on, there is also planned feature to wrap libraries from Red (not just R/S), something like R2/Library interface ...
 
@pekr Whatever happened to that anyway?
 
Whatever happened to what exactly? :-) You mean - R3 Android GUI?
 
5:52 AM
@pekr Yes I replied to that message topic so that is the question
 
Ah, sorry, did not know it is linked. Well, last year, during the Red devcon in Brno, Cyphre demoed the GUI to us. He claimed it being slow, due the lack of float point support on his phone. But - it was not all that slow. IIRC, even Earl claimed it is not all that bad. Maybe it needed just some optimisations or there might be some bugs ...
We simply saw a R3 GUI running on Android phone.
 
Ah, so it's still being developed. Interesting.
 
Not sure if it was released, maybe it is somewhere, but - it surely is not finished product. Cyphre is not available. He claimed to come back for the end of last year, but it's almost a half year ago, so ...
As to my knowledge, Cyphre moved completly to non Rebol stuff. Not sure what's his status nowadays, maybe @rebolek knows more, but I would not give it much chances, that he is going to further push the R3 GUI for Android ...
 
I think we've all given up on it
But good someone thinks it has some potential
 
there are still few ppl around, thinking that AGG fall-back might make some sense even for Red. The trouble is, that AGG is not further developed (Maxim, it's author, died, quite young and it was not expected), nor is AGG HW accelerated ...
@GrahamChiu the optimistic timeframe for Android Red support is something like late July. Let's say it is coming in October/November, to be safe/more realistic.
 
6:11 AM
@pekr oh? I thought you mentioned 6 months before
 
It is up to you to decide, if you wait, do some preparations, or try to continue with what is available for R3.
Yes, it was - two months ago? So I still think it is like that?
 
@pekr Good to know it's on track. I'm taking the time to learn a different language while waiting.
 
@GrahamChiu - you are experienced developer, you might make your own guesses imo. Just watch Red Trello task list - trello.com/b/FlQ6pzdB/red-tasks-overview , and/or visit Gitter Red chat and ask Doc or other ppl what they think ...
 
@pekr I'd rather not bother doc with progress requests!
Milestones on Red Tasks Overview
To do: REMOVE-EACH native., Complete the work on the object ownership system., Finish and integrate the simple GC., and 19 more
☑ 0/22
Nothing checked off yet. I'll keep an eye on this one.
 
7:17 AM
@HostileFork I'm glad that you have a plan for moving forward on Ren-C/Ren-Garden. Hopefully that results in a fecund garden.
 
 
2 hours later…
9:19 AM
posted on May 24, 2016 by hostilefork

This note was made by @giuliolunati in the Ren-C issues database: system/options/script gives path of script relative to system/options/path but clean-path expand it relative to system/options/current-path. If I run ./r3 ../src/tests/test.r, and %test.r contains print clean-path system/options/script, I get <...>ren-c/src/src/tests/test.r, different from true path of script atm syste

 
 
1 hour later…
10:46 AM
posted on May 24, 2016 by hostilefork

In Ren-C, infix AND OR and XOR are all logical operators. (The prefix logical forms are AND?, OR?, and XOR?) The bitwise and "mathy" and-and-or use their boolean logic symbols so infix operators are AND* and OR+. Initial trials named the XOR operator XOR- with a trailing minus sign. But the exclusive-OR operation is symbolized by a + with a circle around it. Although there is some li

 
 
2 hours later…
12:31 PM
@Brett If people here want to see a future for the directions laid out, it certainly helps if they can throw in some time...as you have done quite a bit! If you find some more time, I'm going to suggest that it be spent on seeing what Ren Garden and the Trello code can be rigged up to do.
>> one: func [arg [any-value! <...>]] [
    also (take arg) (unless tail? arg [fail "extra arguments after ONE evaluation"])
 ]

>> (one 3 + 4)
== 7

>> (one 3 + 4 5)
** user error: extra arguments after ONE evaluation

>> (one 3 + 4 | 5)
== 5
^-- Cool use of variadics to "hook" the evaluator and make sure you only evaluate one expression. Works with expression barriers signaling the end too, because variadics honor them. Whatever you call that, I've thought it would be useful, especially for learners.
 
1:12 PM
Having let things settle in my mind for a while, I think that we can make the best of the concept of PRINT being dialected, where the top level of the dialect will only fetch simple references and not run functions. e.g. even x: does [10] | print [{The value is } x] would have to be written as x: does [10] | print [{The value is } (x)], because it wouldn't fetch a function...(much less an expression).
This means that if you don't put in any GROUP!s (that's PAREN! in Ren-C speak, for @Edoc's benefit), you at least have the benefit of some safety of not doing arbitrary code execution.
I think I may be almost at the point of a meshed solution to the longstanding "what the heck is FORM and TO-STRING and MOLD and REJOIN and how do all these things tie together, for instance, what's the relationship to PRINT when it gets a block or doesn't", etc.
I can say with a fair amount of confidence now that PRINT/ONLY does not behave as PRIN did. If X is a block, then I think PRIN X would be equivalent to PRINT/ONLY FORM X
 
 
4 hours later…
5:48 PM
posted on May 24, 2016 by hostilefork

(NOTE: This commit is from late March, and was tied up as part of the specific binding branch. It is being extracted as part of the *pre-specific-binding** "frozen" branch, since the decision is now firmed up, after experimenting with alternatives like check-set.)* With the demise of "reified unsets", the role of the non-reified unset (a "void" or "no expression result") is being reco

 
 
1 hour later…
6:49 PM
posted on May 24, 2016 by hostilefork

This change makes a single _ equivalent to a literal NONE! value, and is how a NONE! is molded to the display. It establishes BLANK! as an alias, and a test function BLANK?...but with no word BLANK to look up to the value, as the underscore is intended to speak for itself. WORD! with an underscore-only name would have to be done in construction syntax. (Note: #_ was seen in use in a ver

 
@GrahamChiu Nenad spoke of a new release before NEXT summer. But progress is slow on the release parts at the moment as you pointed out. There is a lot done, but it is beyond the github horizon I think. And Doc had some fun showing off his Red programming skills, which is fine by me, we all need the fun in programming ;-) Other progress is in other stuff like PARSE getting CHANGE just today. (I had no need for it LOL!)
 
 
2 hours later…
9:03 PM
@MarkI I think that if ? value: select map key [...] where ? is the quintessential language "true and false" test, which is "is this a value at all", may represent about the best one can get. I think that it's a mistake for any plain path-or-word-fetch that yields a function to not run that function, regardless of source. So if you don't mean run the function, you need to use a :whatever/blah/blah or a select or a get, etc.
? is currently wasted on help. help is easy to type, and optimized consoles could offer little mini vocabularies like h and such. With the prominence of testing for if something is a value, then taking ? for that makes sense... as when you take the xxx? off of something that returns true or false, what else might it be measuring about the thing passed?
The only other thing one might argue would be "is it true?/truthy?", but as that's built into IF and such there's no need for it.
Writing a plain path should have the same stakes as a plain word. Y'know... if that resolves to a function, it will run it...
 
 
2 hours later…
11:16 PM
@GrahamChiu not yet. I'll get to it soon!
 
11:26 PM
@johnk If you get the time, please do weigh in on those posts: 252, 253, 254... you and RebolBot are one of the few to have started living in the "unused refinement arguments are void" world... I'm basically certain that's right, and these are about some of the other issues that I'm getting increasingly certain about...
 

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