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3:03 AM
@rgchris is there any particular reason you needed to create your own feed for the Google rebol group rather then using their RSS feed?
 
 
6 hours later…
8:59 AM
I am fairly confident at this point that either Rebol outlaws append [a b c] 'd via source code being protected by default, or I think as a language it runs up against things that just don't work... e.g. that would have to be append copy [a b c] 'd. The other line of thinking that functions copy their arguments "by default" somehow I think is a dead end for the medium in the pantheon of concepts.
@pekr, @GrahamChiu, @rebolek and whoever else is around: do you think you could still use the language if source code were protected and required the copy if you intended to mutate it?
In practice, I think, it isn't the worst thing. Note that Lisp actually has undefined behavior if you muck with source like that--you don't get an error, it just might generate random code.
 
I could live with copy
 
I don't think, in practice, outside of printing in the console that very often you want to write the likes of append [a b c] 'd, and I also think that Lisp's undefined behavior bit points to an issue, and also we've established it's one of the big new user "why doesn't this work" issues.
@GrahamChiu copy would need to be deep by default.
 
@HostileFork sure
 
Well it wouldn't need to be in a mechanical sense, but I think it would in a practical sense.
This is a difficult, meditative thing to think about, and when I make the analogies to like zen gardens and rocks, and when Carl says "gurus meditating", I'm kind of saying the same thing.
 
@HostileFork what’s the reasoning for this change?
 
9:06 AM
@rebolek I'm writing it up, slowly, when I feel like writing. My question wasn't "do you want to know why" it was "let's imagine I finish the essay on why, does it really hurt anyone that badly"
Rebol is very liberal, compared to the push in functional programming, with immutability and such. And I'm not trying to turn Rebol into Clojure or whatever.
I'm asking if--realistically--people are getting good use out of the likes of append [a b c] 'd other than in console demonstrations, when I have some language-core-rationale to why the whole thing needs to shift and one of the things you can't do is that.
The proposal that was floated for a time was automatic copying of literals in these cases, so loop 2 [data: ["a"] | append data "b" | probe data] would give you ["a" "b"] and ["a" "b"], because each assignment "just copied it"
As people will note, I'm increasingly unapologetic regarding |.
I do not think, in the niche of what Rebol is useful for, that this implicit copying is a good idea.
It cannot be made efficient just because of "the nature of the thing", and in a way Rebol is about getting you "close to the machine", and you do not want the machine doing inefficient things you did not ask for.
For a time I thought perhaps copy-on-write could let you slip that into the noise, so you don't concern the programmer with it...and eventually I decided, no. You cannot.
 
@HostileFork So with append [a b c] 'd you would need to copy, but with a: [a b c] append a 'd not?
 
@rebolek You would need it there too. Basically, source code would be PROTECT'd and you would not be able to UNPROTECT it.
I suggest, for performance, variants of LOAD that do give copies, e.g. LOAD/COPY
 
Hm, I see. I can’t tell if it’s good idea or not, I need to think more about it.
 
It would not actually load a read only version and then make a copy and throw away the read only version. It would just act "as if"
So load/copy would be an efficiency hack over copy load.
@rebolek Well the question is more "in practice, could you live with it if you knew that the language would collapse otherwise"
Red has not really articulated where its boundaries are in terms of "have to interpret that vs. compile it" in a semantic sense, in a way that really solidly explains why an interpreted Red program and a compiled one are guaranteed to give the same output. In a way, the questions I'm looking at--though totally interpreter-related--actually deal with drawing the same lines, because a smart interpreter and a smart compiler both want the same things...
 
9:36 AM
Anyway, a lot of languages are working with immutability because it "keeps things tied up", but in a negative way generally. Not a lot of fluidity in the languages...to the benefit of compilers, less so to the "creative idea you had". We can argue whether handcuffs are a good check on whether your idea is good or not all day, but sometimes you want to draw the shortest line between A and B and be done. And so, if you like the "free" way Rebol feels, immutability sounds like a bad word.
Lately I'd put that as: "If I wanted to use Haskell/Clojure, I'd use Haskell/Clojure"
So proposing the idea of user-consciousness of immutability might sound like an encroaching terror. Carl didn't like const in C, even.
But in my unfinished article, and with working code in the pipe, I think that Rebol wouldn't be hit that hard by a sort of "const" notion. It would still be imperative and you could do all the dirty terrible hacks you want...you just have blocks that are read-only or not. Make a copy if you must.
The idea I have though is the existence of "cheap read only copies of a copy/deep tree with a different binding". e.g. you can pass around values that represent the same source bound differently at near-zero cost.
If you want to rebind something and mutate it beyond just bindings...that wouldn't be as cheap.
 
 
2 hours later…
11:22 AM
Anyway, I just don't want to be Carl-like in terms of silence and inaccessibility during periods of thinking. If people want to know why I'm not working on Rebol, I want to give the explanation. I believe the "right path" is x: () | unset? 'x should be true, and that append copy [a b c] () => [a b c] and that append [a b c] () should be an error, and even those simple statements are kind of "disruptive".
I feel that these disruptions are motivated by "good ideas" if you buy into the modality or mindset of programming that Rebol sells. When I think about that vision, a lot of that vision has come from @rgchris, who I think is kind of the Czar of elegance with the etsy, s3, etc.
 
 
3 hours later…
1:58 PM
@HostileFork I'm in the midst of writing a dialect that allows users to extend it on-the-fly with new keywords (or synonyms) on-the-fly. That extensibility is a key part of what I'm trying to achieve. The example you give seems reasonable-- adding a 'copy in there is not a big adjustment. I'm just not sure if any other factors are affected, i.e., what happens when the code is making copies of a dialect syntax tree of a several hundred nodes.
 
@Edoc I think the thing is that to most people, how Rebol works is mostly a mystery. e.g. few people understand that in foreach x [1 2 3] [code [using [x foreach y [5 6 7] [more y code]] maybe] in here]] that every time you see a foreach it is making deep copies of the body. Which is basically just a way of saying "not too many people know how, or why, Rebol is 'working'"
At its core, Rebol is based on what I would call a "crazy idea".
This idea is called "definitional scoping" and if one is a scientist, one would have certainly asked "exactly how is it that you think this 'works'", really? Because it's a bit anarchist.
 
2:33 PM
@Edoc Lest can add new keywords on the fly even without this change.
 
What I am proposing is, a cheap way to bind/copy/deep
And this cheap idea requires the input to be immutable.
And, so, if you want to be a mutator the burden is on you to copy.
Source starts of as cheaply bind/copy/deep-able by default because source is protected by default.
I don't think--in practice--this breaks a whole lot of code.
In fact, it seems usually the things it breaks were bugs in the original code.
But basically I'm saying, that it would be "zero cost" to say bind [a [b c [...] d] e f g] some-obj no matter how big [...] was.
No copy needed because the read-only source [a [b c [...] d] e f g] would just become "imaged" as bound into some-obj, and that this could be done several times, with a slight cost each time you bound it again...just not too much cost.
But in order to pull off the "cheap imaging" you must be sure the source you are referring to is not going to be changed out from under you, hence the immutability requirement. If that's unsatisfactory, well then you have to copy.
Though this suggests that bind a b semantically returns a rebound copy of a to b, while leaving a unaffected.
Although a mutating bind would still be around I guess, except you'd have to make sure you did it on mutable data. So perhaps there'd be two operations. bind and bind/copy, where bind/copy was secretly cheap.
 
3:01 PM
@HostileFork Cheap sounds good. :)
@rebolek Wherein I admit complete ignorance regarding Lest. (And on a bad morning I'd suspect that word was a typo)
 
@Edoc No problem :) I’m just saying that it’s possible to write dialect that can be expanded on the fly with current version of Rebol. In fact, it’s pretty easy, once you know how ;)
 
@rebolek Yes, it hasn't been a problem so far (well, handling user/scanner errors robustly and dealing w/ iffy non-rebolish input is another thing). I just don't want any new problems. :)
 
3:36 PM
@HostileFork Thanks for the explanation.
 
 
1 hour later…
4:49 PM
@HostileFork - is that a loss of motivation on your part, so that you stopped your work on R3, or just some interim break?
 
posted on May 19, 2016 by Gerard Sontag

Hello, in the Red Console typing : red>> to number! "10" Will result result in an exit from Red Even if using a typeset! must not be permitted an error message is nice to have. Amicalement Gérard

 
5:41 PM
@HostileFork This is a tricky point, and critical as well.
FWIW I recommend that the term "scope" not be used to describe any property of Rebol.
I respectfully suggest that "binding", or if absolutely necessary "default binding", be used instead of "scoping".
As in the sentence "Rebol's default binding rules provide some parts of what other languages have called scoping."
 
5:53 PM
Needless to say, part of the trickiness here is that modules are not finished, so Rebol 3's "binding rules" are necessarily incomplete as of yet.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:46 PM
@lispmeister one word. Complexity. Simple things should be simple to do, hard things possible. #rebol #redlang @red_lang
 
8:06 PM
@MarkI It's not too late to change it, and I think most people would agree. So..."definitional binding"? Or something entirely different?
@pekr Well, I'm stuck a bit because I sort of went off on a ride in a "game I was playing" where I accepted the rules of the game as they were, and thought about the logical ends of that game. It wasn't until very recently that I decided enough was enough and it was necessary to assume you were building the thing in a C with inline functions and mid-scope declarations.
Which is actually--in ways--a lesser presumption than presuming availability of a 64-bit integer type.
In the historical matrix, I don't think you'll find a lot of 64-bit capable C compilers that for some reason can't compile static inline int foo(int *x) { *x = *x + 1; int y = x; return y; } ... and in fact, even old C compilers that don't support inline can do that if you #define inline to nothing.
I have a kind of eerie proudness about the way in which I've managed to push the boundaries of this game, and how well @Brett's source thing works, where I do--really--think that it's hard not to say that something like the source code for the LOOP native isn't a sort of "achievement". If one is to appreciate it, then like many things you kind of have to know the constraints it's built under.
Carl set the stage for this game, and Red is playing the game in another way than I played it, under a different interpretation.
 
8:33 PM
Anyway, regarding motivation, it's a bit hard to predict. No one should delude themselves that this "idea" is a short race. Red's inception was 2011...and it's been a while. And it will be a while yet. Ren-C is about a year old now, I guess.
The definitional "scoping" article is sitting in an unfinished state because, as I said, what I'm proposing is a bit radical and I don't have it all worked out yet. I've mentioned some of the implications of the world one would live in as a Rebol programmer if my findings are to be believed. But the challenge of Ren-C has always been "make sure it actually works" on a large and crufty sample codebase...so I can't just come up with these wild ideas and then have them not hold water.
 
8:48 PM
But I really am talking about what I mentioned before, that while [outer] [outer-break: :break | while [inner] [outer-break] | print "inner finished"] print "outer finished" would just print "outer finished".
And "cheaply", e.g. no deep series bits being copied to do that.
And it would mean USE statements or anything use-like would not copy blocks either, unless they were mutable.
>> source use
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
use: make function! [[
    "Defines words local to a block."
    vars [block! word!] "Local word(s) to the block"
    body [block!] "Block to evaluate"
][
    apply make closure! reduce [to block! vars copy/deep body] []
]]
 
That R3-Alphaism is grossly inefficient. It manufactures a function (GC'able entity) based on a deep copy of the block of code it is given. Then, because of the way CLOSURE! works, it copies the body yet again in the invocation of that function.
Ren-C tidies up the issue of that second copy. But if you write USE like this there's no getting around the manufacture of the function, because you wrote USE like that. I'm proposing USE not work like this at all, but rather work like the way that functions work to avoid copying their bodies via imaging them under a new binding.
And so the good news is: code is already basically ready to do that. The bad news is: I'm the only one with the intersection of knowledge and potential willpower to do it, and people haven't so much cared about what I've done already, and there's a lot of new shows coming out on TV this season, and Trump might be the next U.S. President.
 
@GrahamChiu Yes—wanted to control the appearance of the Feeds posts here: the titles are cleaned up and posts from @iArnold are removed.
2
@HostileFork I'm going to get a 'Czar of Elegance' t-shirt made up! Or a badge, or something :)
 
9:04 PM
@rgchris Why not?
I do think that I have hardened my heart a bit on tags though.
I might want to close the door on multi-line tags, or tags ending in -->.
 
@HostileFork I'm stuck in a spot where my working code is in Rebol 2 and I really want it ported to Rebol 3. I need things like the HTML parser, but my first run on that hit the complexities of that implementation and I'm not sure there's an easier/more efficient way to parse HTML out there. And Rest.
@HostileFork I'll not say any more on it, I've said my piece :)
Rebol 3/Ren-C is just sitting there so tantalisingly, and I just can't reach it yet :(
2
The library thing (SQLite) was a pain as well, but then it's a pain in Rebol 2 as well (no library access in /Core).
 
@rgchris Well, it would be interesting to know how you felt about the ergonomics of the decisions. I mentioned that I've kind of just "kept going with things" and following ideas to their conclusions, and things like x: () not being an error but unsetting x is one thing, and then all [true | if false [true] | true] being true is another thing, and the usage of | itself being a thing...
There are lots of "things".
 
@HostileFork I'm generally open-minded on these areas and am willing to see where you take them. I haven't encountered too many problems running some code on Ren-C, and I usually speak up if I'm concerned with a certain direction.
 
Well they were part of trying to make puzzle pieces fit, and I think the thing I get bent out of shape over when comparing with Haskell code is that if you're not writing pure functional "math" then really the question about your programming methods you're asking is "how broken am I willing to make things for the sake of some abstract 'Humanishness Ergonomics'".
e.g. I'm kind of on a fool's errand, of formalizing something non-formalizible. story of my life
 
9:20 PM
If I had more of an understanding of Haskell, I might have a better appreciation for what Rebol does 'wrong'.
Trouble is that I've spent too much time using Rebol and things that Rebol do seem to me to be right :)
(which is a terrible mindset to have)
 
@rgchris Well just imagine you can't do anything unless your types are correct, and every type starts out with "does nothing whatsoever" until you add an interface to it. In other words, if you have a function which takes as input a list of X and outputs a single X unit, there's basically nothing that function can do but pick a member out of that list.
And only because picking members out of lists is something lists let you do.
 
9:35 PM
Sometimes I think r3 should move to useable first, and correct second :)
 
@GrahamChiu If your goal is just to get things done no matter how mucky, there's already a lot of ways to do it.
 
That's how innovation works to subvert
 
Well, let's see if Red builds that no-Eclipse Android turnkey solution that I used to be so excited about but somehow dropped off the priority list.
That's subversive.
Android Studio is better, but still bad.
XML is really pretty reprehensible and it's a sort of poor reflection of humanity not just that it was invented, but that people still use it.
2
 
10:15 PM
@rgchris no library access in free /c
@rgchris can we take any googlegroups feed and pass it through your script?
 
10:34 PM
@GrahamChiu Yes.
 

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