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12:02 AM
@giuliolunati It's "Mezzanine" and is just a call to make object!
One reason I say you might want to go through MODULE! is because it's already arity two
make module! [[spec] [body]]
If this is important to you, I'd prefer that you go along those lines vs. doing something like make object! [[body] [spec]]
(Although I have actually thought that making things should keep adding the optional stuff afterward... so make whatever! [[body][spec][meta-spec][meta-meta-spec]])
 
object/spec body spec ?
 
That is more consistent with the way things work today.
 
I'd argue that we'd be facing an uphill battle for that with something like function/spec where you put the parameters afterward...
Which is why DOES exists
Hence why I think HAS is a nice counterpoint to that, and making object arity 2
 
@RebolBot
help has
 
12:10 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
USAGE:
    HAS vars body

DESCRIPTION:
    A shortcut to define a function that has local variables but no arguments.
    HAS is a function value.

ARGUMENTS:
    vars -- List of words that are local to the function (block!)
    body -- The body block of the function (block!)
 
I'm happy to let that one go. :-)
 
:-)
So we change HAS ?
 
@giuliolunati Among many other things. I'm happy to go ahead and lose it as written today.
 
Goodnight!
 
Nite!
 
12:37 AM
red> parse "abc" [copy foo thru ["a" "b"] "c" (print foo)]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
ab
== true
 
>> parse "abc" [copy foo thru ["a" "b"] "c" (print foo)]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== false
 
1:00 AM
^-- whatever the motive to not support that, it needs to support it.
Were it not to support it, it should have been an error in the first place.
 
1:28 AM
we have parse dialects now :(
 
@HostileFork beats me. I'll have to test it. The textile syntax is quite different, but we are not planning on (m)any formatting changes as part of the load. I think the newline handling is different which is one thing we may want to fix (ie Textile translates newline newline to new paragraph whereas Markdown works with just newline)
 
@GrahamChiu Hopefully we can standardize that one, and only speak about Rebol2/Rebol3 distinction and have Rebol3 and Red do the same thing.
Right now the biggest rift I'd think is that I believe in MARK and SEEK, and do not think just using set-word and get-word to mark and get the parse position is clever or good... and it messes with locals-gathering.
@johnk Perhaps the created-on date affects it only if the modified-on date isn't later, and then you can create it at the date with a dummy body and then modify it with markdown?
Tests will show...
 
2:00 AM
I wonder if we should bring AS back...only it wouldn't alias strings as binaries. It would alias one array as another, or one string as another.
block: [a b c]
path: as path! block
paren: as paren! block

>> path
a/b/c

>> append path 'd

>> probe paren
(a b c d)
It's mechanically quite doable, but it adds a shade of complexity to the system. It would help in terms of avoiding a copy in a few cases, like if you wanted to splice a block into something so that it would evaluate (as in the FOR implementation above)
Arguably, a good copy-on-write would take care of it, and keep you from switching the type out from under things. But what if you wanted the transformed type to change? Is that a common or valid desire?
 
2:16 AM
@HostileFork Still going to need an end of block condition to support comments without special bracketing or other non-rebol text.
 
@Brett Skipping over a blank line isn't enough for starters?
 
@HostileFork You mean a non-comment blank line?
Like really blank.
 
// foo: [
// ...
// ]
// bar baz
// mumble: {...}
//
// ^-- that line
// seems it could work
 
I was looking at this example which would not be supported.
Because it has a empty comment line.
 
posted on August 31, 2015 by hostilefork

FOREACH was a bit of a black sheep as not using a hyphen to separate the words, and represented a kind of slippery slope that had been rejected by Rebol's philosophy (TYPE-OF and not TYPEOF, for instance). It also was in a family of other functions that did have a hyphen, like remove-each and map-each. It also draws the eye toward the componet REACH..which once it is seen sort of can't

 
2:20 AM
@Brett Well, that was just thinking out loud (as most of this is). I'd be happy to impose a practical condition. I'm still not sure if we want to invent a new syntax for natives or put their definition as it is today verbatim.
The one thing I switched to certainty about was that putting the enough of the spec in there to get rid of natives.r as a separate "source" file was worthwhile. Beyond that... ?
 
@HostileFork Perhaps we should ignore the special dialect for now and go with the general. Set-word! starting a comment starts an embedded sequence of rebol values terminated by a blank line or end of comment.
 
@Brett Sounds like a good start... small steps. I guess I like the idea of the set-word being the C function name, vs. Title: Append_Value.. Don't know what it should say. Append_Value: core-function [...] ? :-/
 
I suppose the sequence could be extended to being terminated by the first comment line not included within a block value and not starting with a set-word.
 
(for things that aren't native! implementations)
 
Append_Value: C []
?
 
2:28 AM
@Brett It could be cool to allow some other things to be processed, tag values, or something. We don't know yet.
@Brett Simple and fits a format...the issue is that one purpose of having the headers is to tell whether you are exporting something or not for auto-header generation...and we don't know entirely what else we might want to say
But let's start with that, maybe skip the block
I guess we have examples of things like the RL_API right now that are done with fake #defines that are picked up upon, and I'd rather those instructions not go on like that.
Wish I had better answers off the top of my head, but we can just start the thinking with things like Append_Value: C [<RL_Api>] and ruminate on it from there to what seems right.
The RL_API stuff has a little ad-hoc script for making a document out of it.
 
I don't know enough about the source to understand the issues here. But I assume it will have an impact on the initial conversion from the old source to the new format?
 
The current scanner for function prototypes to extract looks for:
/***************************************************
**
*/ function prototype here
It doesn't care what comes after that, or maybe it requires at least /**/
(To know when to end copying the prototype)
We will have to change that to something which looks for the comment structure, finds the end of the comment structure, and grabs everything up to a { as the prototype.
So any functions that fit the above format need to be effectively discernable after the transformation.
The RL_API sweep is another thing on top of that, where there is a #define of a no-op it looks for in the prototype string
 
@HostileFork Currently does a little more
 
I see you have gotten quite a lot of code now :-)
 
Indeed.
Haven't quite parsed C yet...!
 
2:42 AM
Hopefully we can make the amount of code needed to support the format after the transformation as minimal and maintainable as possible
So that's another kind of important axis to judge on. Another is that it should be able to run the build itself with the pre-open-source release of Rebol3
(Doesn't matter what the conversion uses, but we still kind of keep it in mind that you should be able to bootstrap the source from an old Rebol3, until we formally decide to stop supporting that and pick a new basline version.)
 
@HostileFork So far it runs on Rebol2 and an atronix r3, but I haven't tried it with an old Rebol3.
 
Probably a good bet that it would work if it works on both of those
 
I would think so.
 
I see @earl was committing today but hasn't stopped to weigh in on the comment format, stars vs. non-stars, etc.
 
I develop in Rebol2 because I have my parse support tools then get it working for Rebol 3. I guess that turned out useful. I wonder how people go about debugging Rebol 3 parse rules..
 
2:48 AM
I'm still ready to vote stars out, on the basis of the need to bring together the prototype with the body.
 
@HostileFork Will be nice to get his comments.
 
//
// stuff...
//
void proto(...) {
   ...
}
/*********************************************************
**
** proto: stuff...
**
********************************************************/
void proto(...) {
   ...
}
 
Except that stuff includes the name...
 
In both cases it would include the name, yes.
Other one's too old to edit
 
Well to me, not doing C, the first would seem cleaner visually.
 
2:51 AM
I've definitely felt that the stars are a bit over the top on every function myself.
And right up against the prototype like that, I feel they impede readability.
Character-for-character, you have a lot of them not making code.
 
Yep which was why I initially left the blank line.
 
Which I think makes it look like a section heading
 
:)
 
So I lean for the lighter look. Maybe having a few heavier things for actual section dividers.
 
Over the years I have never really seen a stable comment scheme, but then I never worked with a tool that enforced one.
 
2:53 AM
I use long lines of slashes for that myself, I like how they look more.
 
I've tended to go with ----------, sometimes, then ********* for sections. Depends on mood :)
============ is also something I do..
But then I don't use C...
 
So one thing I want us to do as we go through and rewrite is to fix up the headings on the files, direct people to CREDITS.md vs having names maintained per-file, and link to developer documentation vs. the existing warnings or admonishments.
Update copyright dates, all that.
We don't have to do it in this pass, but some attributes that are currently in file-base.r should be in the Rebol-formatted attributes of the files themselves.
 
Hmm. Well I'll just get the rebol attribute thing going first :)
 
3:29 AM
Looks like qtxie has an OSX window up now with Red GUI
 
It's a start. :-)
I had a "Carbon" C++ program that I once did a little bit of adaptation work to call it from "Cocoa" Objective-C, which wasn't too hard. Eventually they phased Carbon out completely so you have to use Objective-C as your "shim" for a native code interface.
 
3:54 AM
I wonder if the market for small one-trick gadget programs is saturated.
 
4:11 AM
^ lol
 
There's a sort of weird situation, and I've seen this a lot, with people who were around for computer tech of 20 years ago and now... where they have a crazy amount of skill but don't have much to point to in terms of what one might call "success" with the current market.
I think everyone gets the "obvious" stuff that changed, like you don't go to the store and buy software in a box anymore.
Although maybe someone does. I was in Best Buy and saw like, a hamper of software.
I think that's how you buy boxed software these days, from a large bin.
But I think so much has changed, and that if you're going to turn people's eyes toward the process of how Rebol and Red are sticking to the old ways what you have is almost as much a marketing challenge as a technical one.
@JacobGood1 Something worth watching: ted.com/talks/jesse_schell_when_games_invade_real_life
 
@HostileFork A thing of beauty for sure
 
4:31 AM
@GrahamChiu It's pretty standard for Apple software, you can accomplish almost as much right there.
It's nearly as powerful as GarageBand.
 
@HostileFork I was joking :)
 
I'm not.
Wonder if this BED person wants to work on Rebmu.
I am lagging on my Rebmu update, need to put it out, but then I have to update all the programs and make sure they work. It's been a progressive narrowing of Rebmu. Originally it worked in Rebol2 and then I said "I don't care", and now I pretty much have to push to the Ren/C only.
If you think maintaining ordinary Rebol code in the face of changes is a bit tricky, hm, well, updating the Rebmu programs can be a challenge.
I've done it a couple times now.
Hum. Providing information about where Rebol tokens come from is a little tricky... there's nowhere in the chain where the filename is passed in, because TRANSCODE works underneath LOAD.
So if you're wondering why there's no file or line number information on things, at least one reason is... it doesn't know.
You can thread it through, with a refinement on TRANSCODE I guess. Although that runs up against my little "replace transcode with a PARSE operation" gimmick.
(or giving PARSE a refinement so it knows something about the origin of its data)
 
4:59 AM
>> source empty?
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
empty?: make action! [[
    {Returns TRUE if empty or NONE, or for series if index is at or beyond its tail.}
    series [series! object! gob! port! bitset! map! none!]
]]
 
>> source tail?
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
tail?: make action! [[
    {Returns TRUE if series is at or past its end; or empty for other types.}
    series [series! gob! port! bitset! map!]
]]
 
5:50 AM
posted on August 31, 2015 by dram

In script, WHAT-DIR returns directory of the script instead of the directory where script lauched. In REPL, WHAT-DIR works correctly.

 
6:15 AM
@HostileFork that was horrifying and interesting at the same time...
 
 
3 hours later…
8:51 AM
@HostileFork
fraction: [
form: function[x] [ajoin [x/num "/" x/den]
etc...
]
f: object fraction [num: 2 den: 3]
print f
-> 2/3
@HostileFork
I think custom methods must go in spec, while only specific data in body.
Think of spec as a "class"
 
@giuliolunati Hi. Where's your build of ren/c for android?
 
Hi! On my phone ;-)
Do you need it?
 
I've got a 21" Android tablet :)
 
+1 !
 
I'm not even sure how I would run the binary for ren/c
 
8:59 AM
You need binary?
Or build my "my" branch...
 
the binary is fine
I looked at your github repo and didn't see the build there
 
Source only, you must build...
But just a moment I post bin...
 
9:30 AM
@GrahamChiu try this link r3 android
 
unfortunately I don't have any shell
I downloaded it but ... clicking on it doesn't do anything
 
which one?
 
the r3 binary you linked to
 
You must run it in shell!
 
permission denied
do I need to make it executable?
 
9:40 AM
yes, but before copy it in the home directory of the shell
Cannot execute in sdcard
 
9:51 AM
ok, managed to copy it to shell home
how do I make it executable?
chmod +x r3 says bad mode
 
@HostileFork Sorry for yesterday, I was just too tired and fell asleep -_-
 
10:07 AM
ok, got it working
chmod 751 r3
./r3

works for me
 
+1 !
 
 
8 hours later…
6:38 PM
@HostileFork to change arity of objects I should rewrite all code code related to them... too bad!
Maybe I could change only OBJECT constructor...
probe object [specs...] [data...]
-> make! object! [spec: [specs...] data....]
 
6:56 PM
Uhmmm... when a mezzanine is modified I must rebuild all?
 
@giuliolunati Yep
 
:-(
On phone, that take a while...
 
 
1 hour later…
8:19 PM
@HostileFork 'sticking to the old ways'—I feel I missed the context for this, what are R&R's 'old ways'?
 
8:34 PM
Is there a way to show the results of probe in an area text? For testing purposes
I don't want it to display in console, I want to see it update in real-time, in response to any actions I link it to
 
@fadelm0 I don't think you can redirect probe's output, but you can update it when you use a function.
view layout [b: area "blah" button [set-face b "update"]]
alt-probe: func [x] [set-face b x return x]
view layout [b: area "blah" button [alt-probe "update"]]
@fadelm0 I think that would fake it enough
 
@kealist Hmm, so I would just put my block in place of "update"?
 
@fadelm0 that would be the idea.
 
@kealist Good enough. Thanks!
 
8:51 PM
@fadelm0 you're welcome. Should work in-line as probe does too
 
Any reason why cannot use 'length? in mezzanine?
... ok, must use "lib/length?" .
I not like 'length? - I'd prefer 'length-of, like 'spec-of
 
 
1 hour later…
10:04 PM
@giuliolunati it's being changed
Many of the words using ? are being replaced
 
@giuliolunati It has been changed to LENGTH
@rgchris Being worried about how big something is would be an "old way".
 
10:21 PM
posted on August 31, 2015 by meshpoint

When a conversion is needed, Prep_Bin_Str() creates a temporary series, which in some cases considered leaked. Examples: decloak #{00} "^(100)" encloak #{00} "^(100)" compress "^(100)" construct "a: {^(100)}" debase remove "^(100)1234" make block! "{^(100)}"

 
10:34 PM
History of zero based indexing exple.tive.org/blarg/2013/10/22/citation-needed
 
@GrahamChiu halleluya!
 

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