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12:02 AM
"I'm not a teacher, but I play one on StackOverflow."
2
 
@Respectech FYI Clojure has a good introduction to programming site which may give you more ideas for your guide kimh.github.io/clojure-by-example
 
Something to be aware of with Snap! - instead of hunting through the various categories for blocks, you can try to live-search using Ctrl+F. Quite handy.
@gnat, another possibility for K-6 is Pencil Code. It's actually a blockified CoffeeScript - you can toggle between block and regular source views.
Also, if your goal is to eventually go to a Lisp-type language, you could consider Racket after something like Snap! or similar. The graphical intro I linked is pretty decent for relative beginners in part because the IDE available supports inline graphics.
 
@Adrian WOW! That looks great! I like that it transitions (pretty seamlessly I gather) to coffescript...and thus to javascript and basic web development! Maybe make a K1 intro via snap! with a K1-6 path with basic pencil script...coffeescript. At least I can imagine it working.
 
12:19 AM
The nice thing about Pencil Code is that it specifically uses Iced CoffeScript which, being a superset of CoffeeScript, adds async control flow, so it simplifies quite a bit some of the callback-hell type of code you would see with plain old JS or CoffeeScript.
It also embeds JQuery and Lo-Dash so you can actually build HTML pretty easily and concisely with it.
 
@Adrian I've played with Racket and have a book or two on it. Seemed like maybe K5-12 stuff. Then I found Rebol and got distracted. ;-/ Just trying to imagine a path which might not be intimidating for non prodigies (whatever that means) and provide a path to something other than Java/imperative style.
 
Well, I think that Snap!, with some of the recursive, map/reduce/filter examples you'll see in the curriculum, can be quite advanced - I wouldn't see it as only K1.
I think at some point a Redbol language could do all that is needed, but I don't know that today's the day.
Maybe an evolution of Ren Garden could target young learners.
Nenad also has plans, as @HostileFork, I think, mentioned.
 
@Adrian This is greatly helpful! Thanks so much to the group suggestions! I want to get started this year but have been pretty hung up on not knowing how/where to start, as I am hardly a mathematician myself and even my programming skills are pretty ancient (assembly and C not used for 20 years).
 
@johnk Thanks, John! I just finished incorporating Brett's and your excellent Parse tutorial!
 
@Adrian Perhaps I am being too harsh, but Rebol seems to have an awful lot of idiosyncratic rough edges .. what some might regard as "bugs". That is part of why I am so enthusiastic about the cleanup and deep thinking HostileFork, in particular, is focused on...
 
12:28 AM
@gnat sure, but JS (or others) don't?
But sure, tightening things like Brian is doing can only be a good thing.
 
Oh. JS , PHP and some others are a mess! I think rebol is very readable for a super concise language. And, at least, it is breaking new ground (so, imo, it deserves leeway). I'm hopeful about Rebol...and the folks guiding it... which is why I am hanging out here.
In deciding to get back into a little programming I've been looking/playing with the most highly expressive languages. Even python seems overly verbose (but really nice to maintain, I am sure). So..I have books on lisp, haskell, coffeescript, rebol. I'd surely be further along if I'd just buckled down and taken them sequentially. :-} But I have a "few" other things going on as well....
 
12:51 AM
@Adrian Day #2 of "refactor for an orderly commit strategy that mainline Rebol and Atronix could reasonably be expected to review and take" is plugging along. It does take time as expected, but is turning out to not be as unpleasant as I expected. Dotting i's and crossing t's can be almost fun.
 
posted on June 12, 2015 by Bo

Added three more chapters to the Rebol 3 tutorial at  http://video.respectech.com:8080/tutorial/r3/index.r3 bringing the total to 13 chapters. Here's the current index: R3 Home R3 Introduction R3 Words R3 Help R3 Function Help R3 Blocks R3 More Blocks R3 Text Strings R3 Nesting Functions R3 Objects R3 Intro to Parse R3 Parse and Blocks R3 Advanced Parse Thanks to Brett Handley and

 
@HostileFork I hope Atronix is going to look things over without an overly long delay. For mainline Rebol who would decide on what goes in? @earl, would that be you now or will it be a collective decision.
 
1:35 AM
Fellow rebolers, what would be the "best" way to transform code after parsing it? I know that we can dispatch rebol code within parse... is that the preferred way?
 
@JacobGood1 There are some modification operations: rebol.net/wiki/Parse_Project#CHANGE_1
I don't know about "best". Often the easiest thing to do is to build a new structure out of an old one as you go
 
@HostileFork thanks hostile(I say that a lot, lol)
 
 
2 hours later…
4:10 AM
Hmmm, the GCC on windows with -pedantic complains about "static but used in inline function which is not static" but not on clang/gcc under linux :-/ Wonder why it's different?
 
@JacobGood1 Don't know about "best" but I've preferred to write the parse rules without the actions then use my Load-Parse-Tree function to extract the parse structure, then Gabriele's Rewrite function to transform that tree into a new structure (or code).
More recently I've made Get-Parse which may/may not be better than Load-Parse-Tree. I've really only played with these adhoc, if you're doing production stuff maybe embedded actions would be faster/better.
4
 
4:28 AM
I suppose I should say that Load-Parse-Tree and Get-Parse automatically inject actions in to the rules in order to trace the parse and obtain the tree structure, then remove them again once parsing is complete.
 
5:21 AM
@rebolbot do/2
do http://codeconscious.com/rebol-scripts/parse-kit.r
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/user-message.html
    *** ERROR
code: 800
type: user
id: message
arg1: {Error.  Target url: codeconscious.com/rebol-scripts/set-words.r could not be retrieved.  Server response: HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found}
arg2: none
arg3: none
near: [do script-base/:file
    append script-environment/scripts-used :file
]
where: none
 
@brett I tried to have a quick play with get-parse in tryrebol, but I get a 404 "http://codeconscious.com/rebol-scripts/set-words.r could not be retrieved. Server response: HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found"
 
@johnk Hmm. Thanks.
@johnk Is it ok now?
hah, missed the tryrebol bit...
 
5:40 AM
@rebolbot do/2
words: [some word]
word: [word!]
print mold get-parse/terminal [parse [a b c] words] [words] [word]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
    *** ERROR
code: 300
type: script
id: no-value
arg1: get-parse
arg2: none
arg3: none
near: [print mold get-parse/terminal [parse [a b c] words] [words]]
where: none
 
@rebolbot do/2
do http://codeconscious.com/rebol-scripts/parse-kit.r
words: [some word]
word: [word!]
print mold get-parse/terminal [parse [a b c] words] [words] [word]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
[root none [words [...] [type rule position [a b c] length 3] [word [...] [type terminal position [a b c] length 1]] [word [...] [type terminal position [b c] length 1]] [word [...] [type terminal position [c] length 1]]]]
 
@rebolbot do/2
do http://codeconscious.com/rebol-scripts/load-parse-tree.r
words: [some word]
word: [word!]
print mold load-parse-tree [words word] [parse [a b c] words]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
[
    words [
        word [a]
        word [b]
        word [c]
    ]
]
 
5:46 AM
I feel embedding the parser output actions in the rules hinders reuse in other contexts even if you're careful with the "emit" part of your parser.
A stack is likely needed and it can become painful to implement around a stack every time for each specific problem. Load-parse-tree and get-parse provide the stack and emitter built in. I wonder if Parse will ever get something like this or better built-in?
 
 
2 hours later…
7:51 AM
Hmmm. Discovered a problem with get-parse somehow I've put up a incorrect version. Trying to work it out.
 
@JacobGood1 charsets/complements a good way to go:
@redbot
stuff: complement whitespace: charset reduce [tab space newline]
probe parse "Charsets    Are^-^-^-Checked^/^/^/Faster" [
    collect [
        some [
            any whitespace
            keep some stuff
        ]
    ]
]
 
Can you elaborate on that?
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
["Charsets" "Are" "Checked" "Faster"]
== ["Charsets" "Are" "Checked" "Faster"]
 
8:04 AM
False alarm.
Self referential structures are confusing.
 
8:16 AM
Was a problem. Now fixed and uploaded.
 
8:34 AM
@johnk The output from get-parse follows the tree stucture used by Gabriele's powermezz routines. It's self-referential so can be a bit brain-bending. I recommend using the prettify-tree function I've included on the webpage to see the structure more clearly.
 
8:46 AM
posted on June 12, 2015 by qtxie

TESTS: remove unsuitable test case of bitset by qtxie

 
 
3 hours later…
11:32 AM
@MarkI @earl @ShixinZeng Soon, we will be having some fun. For some definition of fun. By any chance is this weekend free for one or more of you?
Ultimately it might be interesting to arrange some kind of screen sharing session and conference, with @iceflow19 and @kealist and @johnk and anyone else interested in the coding details. I dunno. Anyway, the first phase commit alone...which is actually not even what I thought of as a super big part... is actually a bit of a doozy.
 
11:58 AM
That's nice. You will get some "competition", today or tomorrow Red 0.5.4 is going to be released :-)
I really like how it feels, two teams steadily progressing to bring some goodies to the table!
7
 
@HostileFork I am dedicating this weekend to my commits, so (a) I will be around and (b) will be checking the group; but I can't say how much "screen-sharing" I'll be able to handle.
 
@MarkI The reason I'm taking so long is I broadened the scope, to make Windows work too... :-/
And I'm doing a lot of documentation. Well, notes.
 
@HostileFork Well, that's just fine by me, thank you!
 
Sadly, I do have dumb legacy Win32 API skillz. I can basically read it and fix all kinds of wrongdoings.
@MarkI How are your dumb legacy Win32 api skillz? You don't need them, even, to spot the problem with this... github.com/rebol/rebol/blob/…
 
@HostileFork Apparently skillz got I have not. I see issues, but not with that line, allow me to plead for enlightenment ...
 
12:13 PM
"So... I get this error... but only when my file size is 4,294,967,295 bytes. Works fine if it's 4,294,967,294 or 4,294,967,296 though..." :-P
 
Sounds like typical Winblows to me. Does it actually pass the -1 error indicator through high_size or something?
 
It's a trick. They slipstreamed the 64-bit size onto the fact they originally used -1 as an error code.
 
Tricky, yes, but also erroneous in one case you are saying?
 
Yes... if you get back "-1" you have to check GetLastError(). If there isn't one, that's the actual low DWORD of your 64-bit file size... not an error.
You can do it either way... call GetLastError() and then decide or look at the number. But for performance, if you check the number first you avoid the GetLastError() call overhead
But you can't check the number for -1 and then not check GetLastError()...
 
Understood. Nice catch.
 
12:18 PM
Eh, I just was in the neighborhood and noticed. :-)
 
With caching, I actually wonder if GetLastError() could be faster than comparing against 0xFFFFFFFF ...
 
GetLastError() is an actual function call, so the comparison will be faster.
 
But from what I understand about errno on Unix, you need to observe in the correct order.
 
But all kind of just funzies and puzzles. Because at least until our mass upgrade is done, I think that's the least of anyone's concerns trying to use Rebol in deployments with 4GB files.
 
@HostileFork It's not a macro? Surprising.
 
@HostileFork Hey! I can come up with lots of lesser gripes! :)
 
@MarkI Well I can worry about whether to break a line when the semicolon is in the 80th column or not.
 
@HostileFork Exactly! Good one.
 
1:03 PM
I was going over some code written by a coworker at MS, he was using Hungarian Notation. He was from India and not a native speaker.
In Hungarian Notation there's a system by which you name things from their types, to "avoid encoding useless information in variable names". I've explained how to use it properly, to the extent anyone should use it at all. It's based on the idea of systemic naming leading different programmers to write the same code--character for character--when solving the same problem in the same way.
The hypothetical goal is that this "groupthink" or "Borg-like" method of conformance would not just lead two programmers to write the same code when solving the same problem in the same way... but that they'd be able to thus understand the code without the random incidentals that names might introduce.
There's some merit to the idea. Rebol's C code does some of the same... it names types in caps and then uses lowercase for variable names, usually. REBVAL val; is kind of Hungarian-inspired...
I've abandoned it in general, though one can draw some inspiration from it on occasion. But the thing I wanted to bring up was this coworker, who knew the rules but not English.
He knew that if you wanted a struct data type for an employee, you would write struct EMP {...}
He knew that if you wanted to declare a variable of that type you would start it with emp. So he could write EMP empManager; EMP empVicePresident;. And he knew if you were going to use an integer to index an array of employees somehow you'd call it an IEMP iemp;. If you had a count of employees, it would be CEMP cemp;.
Which brings us to when I was going over his code regarding Undo Transactions, which he called an UNT.
So I'll register an interest in a replacement for the current rebol count type, and my replacement proposal is called REBLEN. All opposed?
Makes it a little easier to discuss the code, spoken especially.
In the spirit of baseline, I think Rebol's source code should contain only Latin-8 characters. I'd like to see it go further to no tab characters either.
And no Bell characters. It's a personal thing. I've had enough of Bell characters for one lifetime.
 
1:41 PM
@HostileFork Agreed (REBLEN), agreed (Latin-8), agreed (tabbing), and hilariously strongly agreed (bells).
I would myself go stricter than Latin-8, I prefer ASCII-only, with exactly one control character allowed, namely, ^/.
 
@MarkI If it does get used, it should only be in the version of the sources when they are sent into space via USCII. github.com/hostilefork/uscii/blob/…
 
:)
 
Grumble, well I'm to the link phase on Windows, and it's complaining about something I mysteriously can't find on the Interwebs. But it's related to this:
(Sorry, distracted momentarily by somebody being weird in comments. Delphi person, in 2015. Which maybe says enough... but I guess by those standards we'd all be dismissed too... :-P)
7
Q: Why are IsEqualGUID() and "operator ==" for GUID declared to return int?

sharptoothWindows SDK features IsEqualGUID() function and operator==() for two GUIDs that return BOOL (equivalent to int): // Guiddef.h #ifdef __cplusplus __inline int IsEqualGUID(REFGUID rguid1, REFGUID rguid2) { return !memcmp(&rguid1, &rguid2, sizeof(GUID)); } #else // ! __cplusplus #define I...

Getting linker errors from what appears to be a duplicate definition, possibly because of contention between the inline version and a dynamically linked version when building Rebol as C++ on windows
 
2:18 PM
@HostileFork I've seen those on my Windows machine. Which one are you seeing?
 
c:/Qt/Tools/mingw491_32/i686-w64-mingw32/include/guiddef.h:151: multiple definit
ion of `InlineIsEqualGUID'
objs/dev-net.o:c:/Qt/Tools/mingw491_32/i686-w64-mingw32/include/guiddef.h:151: f
irst defined here
objs/dev-dns.o: In function `IsEqualGUID':
c:/Qt/Tools/mingw491_32/i686-w64-mingw32/include/guiddef.h:155: multiple definit
ion of `IsEqualGUID'
objs/dev-net.o:c:/Qt/Tools/mingw491_32/i686-w64-mingw32/include/guiddef.h:155: f
irst defined here
objs/dev-dns.o: In function `Zeq':
c:/Qt/Tools/mingw491_32/i686-w64-mingw32/include/guiddef.h:174: multiple definit
 
@HostileFork Whoa. OK then. Nothing like mine, sorry :(
 
@MarkI It's junk like that, I just have a VM I made for Ren Garden, it's Windows XP from who knows whenever.
Only thing on it is Qt Creator and GCC
There are no calls to IsEqualGUID in the codebase, so it's some dependency...
Looking at guiddef.h I see stuff like:
#ifdef __cplusplus
__inline int InlineIsEqualGUID (REFGUID rguid1, REFGUID rguid2) {
  return ((&rguid1.Data1)[0] == (&rguid2.Data1)[0] && (&rguid1.Data1)[1] == (&rguid2.Data1)[1] && (&rguid1.Data1)[2] == (&rguid2.Data1)[2] && (&rguid1.Data1)[3] == (&rguid2.Data1)[3]);
}

__inline int IsEqualGUID (REFGUID rguid1, REFGUID rguid2) {
  return !memcmp (&rguid1,&rguid2, sizeof (GUID));
}
#else
#define InlineIsEqualGUID(rguid1, rguid2) ((&(rguid1)->Data1)[0] == (&(rguid2)->Data1)[0] && (&(rguid1)->Data1)[1] == (&(rguid2)->Data1)[1] && (&(rguid1)->Data1)[2] == (&(rguid2)->Data1)[2] && (&(rguid1)->
And as we know the __inline/inline thing is all messed up. I'm building in this case with --std=c++11
But it gets to the linker, and that's good news in any case... and this seems to be the last complaint.
We could always sic @Morwenn on it... ;-P
Well, there's good news... under --std=c11 the same code will build and link. It crashes, of course. This might have to wait until after I've had some sleep/break/etc. Still hoping for a release of the first stage rocket this weekend. @MarkI it will be interesting if we can put the pieces together this week...
As I'm not good at keeping secrets, here's what push #1 will be. It's everything that it takes to get type correctness and building from C98 => C11 and C++98 => C++14, with a separate debug build. It's heavy annotation of reb-c.h and other foundations to explain where things are at. This documentation should be extracted pursuant to my post on the topic...but for now it's the easiest place to write.
It will build as -Wall and -Wpedantic under gcc under 64-bit linux and 32-bit windows under all those standards, except C89...which has problems with things I mentioned like C++-style comments. It will build under clang under those configurations also, with no warnings.
Some bugfixes essential to type correctness (and in particular, getting correct debug output while debugging said type-correctness) will be included. I simply don't see the point of a commit that does only half of the objective, for the sake of half-doing-it
However, this is of course completely separate from the code/data stack separation, queue-based GC, definitionally-scoped returns, etc. etc. None of that here.
So that's my "taking one for the team" here. It doesn't mean this commit isn't going to be a large pile to review, but I'd say it's going to be reviewABLE by someone with an hour or two.
The next level of "turning up the heat" is that I like more than just -Wall -Wextra, and it turns out that adding in all the extra warnings does open up a lot of little things that does actually find bugs. Admittedly not as many as I might have hoped in my schadenfreude... but the point isn't so much about how many bugs are in the code right now... rather how to allow people to "modify with confidence".
So after the first review wave is done, #2 will probably just be more of the same. I'll turn it up to ludicrous warnings, and re-patch in the fixes... again, using the pending code as a sort of "patch database".
But let's get through commit #1 first. I promise it will be interesting (even though it won't have any user-facing features I can think of offhand... mostly-esoteric bugfixes I imagine.)
^-- correction above, it's C89 => C11. I'm apparently sort of dyslexic and get C89 and C++98 mixed up, writing the 8 and 9 backwards both ways often... also in compiler switches.
 
3:55 PM
As another "hint of what's coming", my Zlib update is a prerequisite for the C++/C99 build. So if anyone doesn't want that PR, (a) you're crazier than I am, and (b) you should speak up now...
They did the work, I have no incentive to redo it on an old version of Zlib with bugs when I've done something rather much cooler as an extraction process.
 
4:25 PM
posted on June 12, 2015 by noreply

This new version turned out to be a major release, given the vast number of new features which made their way into it. Hope it was worth the waiting. ;-) In preparation for the GUI support and the DSL that will come with it, a new range of datatypes has been implemented. Pair! datatype A pair is a couple of integer! values used to represent mainly dimensions and coordinates. Its literal repr

 
4:49 PM
posted on June 12, 2015 by DocKimbel

Red 0.5.4 is out: http://www.red-lang.org/2015/06/054-new-datatypes-exceptions-and-set.html

 
Congrats to the Red team, this one is big! :-)
 
 
3 hours later…
8:17 PM
@HostileFork why does this match while this does not?

parse "10.0" [some digit "." some digit | some digit]
parse "10.0" [some digit | some digit "." some digit]

I am sure it is explained some where out there but id rather have a hostile explanation
 
 
1 hour later…
9:28 PM
@JacobGood1 The second one does match—up to ".0". Parse returns none because the rule ran out before the string.
>> parse "10.0" [[some digit | some digit "." some digit] mark: (probe mark)]
 
I just noticed how I worded that lol, I am glad you were able to decipher my rambling
thanks
 
@RebolBot delete
 
@rgchris Can you elaborate on that?
 
>> digit: charset "01" parse "10.0" [[some digit | some digit "." some digit] mark: (probe mark)]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
".0"
== false
 
9:31 PM
@JacobGood1 It made sense :)
 
@rgchris did parse ever try the alternative rule?
or the alternate within the rule
 
No—the first rule was successful, so Parse moves on.
 
ah
it found a few integers
 
>> parse "10.0" [[some digit end | some digit "." some digit] mark: (probe mark)]
@RebolBot delete
Yikes.
>> digit: charset "01" parse "10.0" [[some digit end | some digit "." some digit] mark: (probe mark)]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
""
== true
 
9:34 PM
This time it does 'cause we're also checking to see if we're at the end.
 
so parse returns a fail if it matches a rule but is not at the end of the string
i think i got it
 
Yep.
 
yay
@rgchris ty
 
NP
I always write Parse rules in order to get true but it isn't strictly necessary depending on the goal. Like this one:
>> parse read rebolsource.net [thru <title> copy title to </title> (probe to string! title)]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
#{
5265626F6C20332042696E61726965732028556E6F6666696369616C29202D20
7265626F6C736F757263652E6E6574
}
== false
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
"Rebol 3 Binaries (Unofficial) - rebolsource.net"
== false
 
9:40 PM
vs.
>> parse read rebolsource.net [thru <title> copy title to </title> (probe to string! title) to end]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
"Rebol 3 Binaries (Unofficial) - rebolsource.net"
== true
 
(I also avoid writing rules with to and thru, but that's another story...)
 
10:26 PM
@rgchris What's that story? :-) Also, do you support PARSE returning the input on success and NONE on failure vs TRUE/FALSE?
 
11:12 PM
There are ways in which Windows is both terrible and "great". Except the "great" usually is actually only a case of "better than POSIX/Linux"... and for some of these systems, that's not exactly saying that much.
 

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