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4:20 AM
@MarkI I believed the Bind_Block was two-phase because it binds things in Lib first, then anything that's unbound it binds into user (as opposed to creating some big "lib plus user" combined context and binding to that)
 
 
1 hour later…
5:30 AM
@rebolek Do you have suggestions for code? The code tag already exists, and tends to need some "higher-level" handling anyway. Maybe call the higher-level thing source? How to indicate the language? source 'rebol {...}?
 
 
1 hour later…
6:44 AM
@MarkI Here's another potential thinking point for string escapes... a way of marking where the multi-line content starts, if you want leading space to be significant.
An interesting default for legibility is to assume you want it to start aligned with the first left-most printable, but then you're scanning up and down the whole thing looking for what the "real" left character is, and it's easy to make off-by-one errors
foo: {
    Leading space here being significant is a hassle.
    Usually you don't actually want it.
    But what if you did?
    ^   Here's some content with lead and trail   ^
}
 
7:05 AM
It's hard to say in terms of usability about the idea of space significance in a string being somehow related to a remote bit of indentation, and an all-or-nothing approach instead of "strip the smallest leading amount of space". But thinking about the usability, maybe that's good.
Not sure about the leading/trailing newline by default It seems to me most cases don't want the leading or trailing newline to be considered, so having to put them in explicitly seems better.
 
7:39 AM
@HostileFork Hm, good idea for a plugin. Probably highlightjs.org source <language> <data> is fine.
 
7:52 AM
@rebolek Plodding and puzzling along... I had a notation quote [{para1} {para2} /source {attribution source for quote}]. How would you address that?
A big "gotcha" for me in the conversion is turning out that I don't really like the plugin [{para1} {para2}] assuming things in a block are paragraphs, and part of this comes from how I feel about PRINT based on COMBINE being very good. So there's already a meaning for handing a block to such a construct...and that is not "individual paragraphs".
 
@HostileFork You can create template that takes three arguments so it would be quote {para1} {para2} {attribution source for quote}
 
So my print << [{para1} [{piece of para2} {another piece}] {para3}] was my attempt at an answer to say that there'd be a general way of taking the input and running it through as if you called the command N times on whatever.
@rebolek That's confusing arity if it means last before next command is attribution source... I'd like something more explicit. But maybe that "more explicit thing" needs to be first in your system
 
@HostileFork What is the /source part exactly?
 
@rebolek Similar to how you were saying that in your chain, you really could put "anything" in a slot...it could be anything. But usually a string or a link
There are a number of details here, because I used to write note [{para1} {para2}] and get two paragraphs in a single note. The idea of print [{para1} {para2}] being the same as print {para1} print {para2} works for print, but not for note because I wanted both of those in the same box and to not print "NOTE:" twice.
So... note [print << [{para1} {para2}]]? :-/
It's starting to look a bit complex, compared to how it used to, in terms of the blog source. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, if it's more general.
@rebolek Your blocks do not introduce newlines by default, so that's why you do the p {foo} p {bar} instead of p [{foo} {bar}] because the latter is one line. Do you have any constructs that do treat a block of strings as independent paragraphs?
 
8:10 AM
@HostileFork loops
@HostileFork Why not note << [{para1} {para2}]
Well I guess I can implement << and we will see how it will work for you.
 
@rebolek The worry there is whether generically note {para1} note {para2} is equivalent. Generatively, each note has its own NOTE: label, and it puts it in a box. It is technically possible to have two independent notes following each other. So if << were generic it would make two notes with that
I want to say "one note, two paragraphs" and am uneasy about print [{para1} {para2}] or anything like it treating that as anything but a COMBINE
@rebolek If you set markdown to default, what happens with p {para1} p {para2} vs {para1} {para2}? Does one have extra <p> tags?
 
@HostileFork I think it's turned off with /snippet refinement by default specifically to prevent extra <p> tags :) But I can add a switch for it.
full markdown / slim markdown or something like that.
 
I am not completely sure yet but still think I want the p-special (aka print) and to have it object if it's in a context it dislikes.
Things would be easier if I didn't want to call it print, where I don't want it to act unlike Rebol PRINT.
I just decided I liked the name, so then everything is being bent around that.
So if print refuses to allow:
print [
    {para1}

    {para2}
]
Then having something like:
note [
    {para1}

    {para2}
]
...seems inconsistent. That should, instead, be same as note {para1para2}
(if it's allowed to mean anything, and I'm considering disabling the meaning so that it won't COMBINE when not asked...to avoid accidents while still not treading on semantic space used by Rebol.)
But even further, I might argue that NOTE taking on the responsibility of string interpretation crosses into concerns I already had. So that would be illegal and you'd have to write:
note [
    print {para1}

    print {para2}
]
Of course, this is drifting ever further away from the input being "data" and more toward it being "code", losing some of the appeal it had...in order to fit into a more general system.
 
8:26 AM
The input is code.
Tags are commands.
It's easy to make note [...] so it takes more paramateres where each string would be turned to paragraph.
 
@rebolek Do you have any "aggregating" commands already? Doxygen does a lot of grouping, so their way of getting a multi-paragraph "warning" in CSS (for instance) is:
/// @warning first paragraph
///
/// @warning second paragraph
They essentially disallow sequential sections of the same type unless you do throw something between.
 
@HostileFork Yes, loops. FOR and REPEAT.
 
>> print/paragraphs [
    {What if}
    [{You could set} {blocks to print} {paragraphs?}]
    {It's a different interpretation of blocks.}
]
What if
You could set blocks to print paragraphs?
It's a different interpretation of blocks.
@rebolek Hm... I guess because you allow just a raw string though. But even with a loop, if you want a div to have paragraphs in it, you'd need p or they'd not be independent paragraphs...
 
I like the idea that p << [bla ble bli] would be equivalent to for value in [bla ble bli] [p value]
 
@rebolek Well one question for me is, whether to fight the p and way you're going about things in order to get my p-special. It's looking like it may be an uphill battle, and especially if raw string is going to be interpreted more like I used to have it. But I'm worried about those arity mistakes.
I guess if one is worried about arity mistakes, Rebol may be the wrong language for you.
 
8:38 AM
@HostileFork Div with paragraphs, you mean like div p << [bla ble bli]? That would create div [p bla p ble p bli]
 
@rebolek It doesn't help directly with the note, but it does if you say note [p << [{one} {two}]]. That puts several paragraphs in a note. then note p {one} note p {two} gives you two notes, each with a paragraph in it. From a usability standpoint, let's ask: how would that be distinct from note {one} note {two} or note [{one} {two}]?
 
@HostileFork That depends on implementation of note.
 
@rebolek Well if we started from the "least disruptive design choice", all I'd be doing with Draem would be to take everything and keep it working by pushing the operator outside of the blocks. [note {a} {b}] => note [{a} {b}] and keep all the rules as written intact.
The problem I feel with the "least disruptive design choice" is that it doesn't really fit into a system of consistent answers, so I'm trying to look at what a more-disruptive-but-better change is.
At a basic level, my {a} {b} sequence is two paragraphs. Even in an otherwise empty document, that's two paragraphs.
 
@HostileFork It can be two paragraphs in Lest, if you switch to markdown (and I add an option for full markdown without omitting extra <p>).
 
@rebolek I'm amenable to being more explicit. I don't mind typing p {...} p {...} if it means more clarity and fewer errors. I've dealt with far more oppressive markup. I just want to understand the tradeoffs.
 
8:50 AM
@HostileFork p {...} p {...} - this is the way it's designed.
 
@rebolek Yes, but in meeting two different paradigms, I mentioned a need for p-special... something smart enough to know contexts where it wasn't what you meant. I thought print might be an okay name for that.
However, the details do seem to produce some odd implications...like the need for note [print << [{para1} {para2}]] vs. note << [{para1} {para2}] because they can mean two different things.
(The latter being two notes, the first being a single one consisting of two paragraphs.)
 
@HostileFork What is odd about that?
 
@rebolek Mechanically? Nothing. :-) But if you're used to writing things one way, you have to learn new mechanics.
Around these parts we work pretty hard on balancing various flavors of brute-simple mechanics against the desire to get work done in a clear way. Which brute-simple mechanism is the right one to pick is not always easy. (But we know whatever it ends up being, we want it to be simple.)
It's interesting because I really can type a word like print in no time. <p>foo</p> is longer than print "foo" by a factor of about two, or so.
 
:)
 
@rebolek For now, just to track the difference, I'm going to go with print instead of p. Because it's something more abstract, and I'm going to disallow it from taking blocks. That will prevent accidents like print [{para1} {para2}]. So print << [{para1} {para2}] will rely on a generic primitive that just iterates the construct
Similarly: I want note {para1} to work, even if note [{para1} {para2}] doesn't...but note << [{para1} {para2}] is usually not what I'd mean, as that's two notes. But I can't stop that from working, I can just try to not write that.
So it will be note {para1} or note print << [{para1} {para2}], I guess?
 
9:06 AM
@HostileFork Yes, that would work.
 
Cross my fingers that I don't forget and write note << [{para1} {para2}], but as mistakes go, that should be a pretty obvious one.
And not even that bad if it happens.
I wonder if dialog should be more formal or not. dialog [x: <y> {z} a: <b> {c}] or should you have to write dialog << [[x: <y> {z}] [a: <b> {c}]]. :-/
 
@HostileFork Remember that as dialog would be plugin, it can have form of dialog [x: <y> {z} a: <b> {c}].
How is the block parsed is up to plugin designer.
Ideally it should not emit output directly but translate it to Lest source and pass it back to Lest to deal with it.
 
@rebolek I'll try the looser form, but as I've discussed above the looser form competing with the more rigid one has those interpretational issues... the note {a} note {b} actually meaning something different from note [{a} {b}] or note [print << [{a} {b}]] and each meaning being important. dialog is different, because it has a sort of "rigid" input spec. It's more dialect than "div style"
@rebolek Anyway, gonna run, but thanks for your help. This is a "non-trivial" transformation. I've hammered through some of it, but lots of details before it will work.
 
@HostileFork You're welcome. Remember that I can do the conversion as we discussed on Skype.
 
 
5 hours later…
2:10 PM
@HostileFork Would be nice, maybe, but that's not what's happening. Both binds are /ALL/DEEP, so neither call leaves any words unbound.
Or un-rebound, for that matter.
 
 
9 hours later…
10:58 PM
@MarkI It does have some overriding behavior, otherwise you'd never bind both LIB and USER
 
11:28 PM
@rebolek Hmmm, list is another tough one, where I used to say list [{item1} {item2}] and now it becomes list [print << [{item1} {item2}]]
 
11:59 PM
@HostileFork how are the docs for RenCpp going?
 

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