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12:00 AM
It's the model which wasn't covered by the existing projects (interpreter, compiler).
 
12:21 AM
On that note, mixing scripts in the same file for multiple Rebol-like dialects needs to have a little agreement on header syntax, and the semantics of one field: length. If we have that then we'll be able to have multi-scripts with the individual parts being in different languages or dialects. Just skip past the languages you don't know.
It would, among other things, allow the creation of R3-style extensions that work in Red as well.
 
@BrianH Well, in Ren Garden I started tinkering with modules, and I also started a train of thought that perhaps OBJECT! and CONTEXT! should be different types. Red's OBJECT! already does not allow adding fields because it wants to compile. I've thought perhaps the expanding CONTEXT be its own type.
 
@HostileFork weird, I've been thinking that we need to remove all references to the word "context" from the language since it's used inappropriately everywhere. For one thing, it should never be used to refer to a datatype.
So, Red's object type is more of a struct?
 
12:50 AM
@BrianH We did agree at one point, but the RenCpp experiment caused me to think more about how you could use multiple contexts... and the behavior of contexts seems to me to be unlike objects. Certainly it becomes a bit of an anathema to compilation if objects can expand. I'm not totally clear on contexts and they also have problems: github.com/rebol/rebol/pull/234
So I've kind of thought that a fixed-size object type might have its place. Maybe the cases people were asking for expanding objects in Rebol2 could be done another way.
 
 
1 hour later…
1:59 AM
@HostileFork the only problem I have with "contexts" is the name, because it doesn't refer to a context. This is especially problematic in a context-sensitive language, for a more standard and completely different meaning of the word "context". The main problem with the context function is its name, that a function with that name exists at all in the language, and that problem would be made worse if a context! type existed.
In comparison, having the type be expandable or not is not as much of an issue. There are advantages and disadvantages to either.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:03 AM
posted on March 03, 2015 by BrianH

[Comment] Another issue is how we deal with the issue of silly modules trying to export their local-lib words. However, we don't want to blacklist the word from exports because it will be too difficult to do when you consider #2114, and likely a bad idea even then. For modules it won't be an issue since we can set 'local-lib after all of the other exports are done, but for scripts it's a differ

 
3:16 AM
posted on March 03, 2015 by BrianH

[Comment] PR: https://github.com/rebol/rebol/pull/236

posted on March 02, 2015 by BrianHawley

Instead of having the local import library object have no referent once the module is running except the words you bound from it, set the word local-lib in the module context to refer to it. This will let the developer control overrides, just like lib does globally. Also set local-lib to system/contexts/user in the script context. Even though there is nothing for scripts like the object targe

 
3:28 AM
posted on March 03, 2015 by BrianH

[Comment] Adjusted the description of the ticket to reflect the above discussion.

 
3:46 AM
posted on March 03, 2015 by BrianH

[Comment] OK, given #2115 and #2116, it looks like a terminology change would make sense for some options. /no-user and /no-lib should stay the same. Instead, per #2115, we're replacing the private option with the opposite lib option. /no-share should be changed to /isolate in import, sys/do-needs and sys/load-module. We should consider whether to rename the module function's /mixin option and

 
 
5 hours later…
9:07 AM
41 tests passed, 504 tests failed.
CommonMark.reb is 7.52% ready.
0 improvements
0 regressions
2
 
@rebolek Well, that's a start :-)
I'm going over all the entries at the moment looking for glitches
 
@HostileFork Lot of these fails are just missing newline at the end and similar problems, so in reality it's not that bad :-)
 
It's working mostly
(for my purposes)
 
I guess that when I implement recursion for rules, it will improve significantly.
 
Well, it's kind of overdue to be getting on the same page w.r.t. a common MarkDown library. We have enough fragmentation problems as is without us using different ones.
 
9:41 AM
Hi, quick question. From the red website I gather that Red consists of two layers, Red, and Red System, but I can't seem to find the documentation for the higher-layer substrate. Can someone pls point me in the right direction?
 
@seertaak Hello seertaak! Red is currently targeting compatibility with Rebol2, largely.
 
Ok, so I go and read the docs for rebol2. thanks
May be a good idea to provide a link to the relevant Rebol docs on the Red website, along with a sentence saying what you just said. I wasn't sure if Red/System was THE language for a while.
 
@seertaak Yes, the existing documentation would cover it. Rebol2 is fairly stable as a system, so if you want to learn the ideas it can be fine. Here we talk about contentions and improvements.
 
Ok, thanks for the info.
HostileFork, for a beginner like me, would you suggest Rebol2 to start off instead of Red?
 
@seertaak That's a good idea. You might suggest it. You can find them in Red Development Team chat room
@seertaak I'm kind of an open-source hard-liner. I'll take some pain to use an open sourced thing vs. dealing with a less-painful thing I can't inspect and change. In that sense, I have pushed people to use and experiment with Rebol3 as it is Apache 2.0 and open
 
9:47 AM
oh. rebol2 is NOT open ??
 
No, it has not been open sourced.
Rebol3 is, you can download it for several platforms: rebolsource.net
 
This is not my main language. I have 20 years programming experience, in C++ and other language (including lisp, haskell, ml). I think I can handle stuff that is rough around the edges. Plus I like challenges.
 
Just use R3.R2 is outdated.
 
@seertaak Then go with Rebol3. And as mentioned, I've been hacking on a C++11 binding that's a bit clever. Look for instance at how to make a function extension: github.com/hostilefork/rencpp/blob/develop/examples/…
 
Your library looks nice. Kind of like boost.python but for rebol.
 
9:52 AM
@seertaak Video of a demo app: youtube.com/watch?v=0exDvv5WEv4
 
@Ho
@HostileFork: watching the vid, very nice. So just to clarify. There's Rebol2 - closed. Rebol3 - open, and Red - open. What's the reason for having Rebol3 and Red?
 
@seertaak For starters, Red as a project was started before Rebol3 was open sourced. (A cynic might believe the open sourcing was a retaliation to keep Rebol3 relevant and slow Red down, you may draw your own conclusions.) But Red also is more extreme. It wants to self-host and depend on no other tool. So instead of being written in C, it's written in a C-like dialect called Red/System.
This "Full Stack Language" notion is unique to Red, and not part of Rebol's agenda. Rebol is written in C and that's that.
 
Are both Red and Rebol3 compiled? I gathered that Rebol3 is interpreted..
 
@seertaak Rebol3 is interpreted. Red has a dual-track where it embeds an interpreter in your executable for that which cannot be deduced at compile-time. There is an aim to "Pre-compile what you can, Jit-compile that which you can't, and then have an interpreter in the generated executable for that which is not amenable to either"
 
Ok, now I'm starting to understand more. And has Red started with the higher-level language, or is it currently only focused on Red/System? My feeling is that I'm actually leaning towards Red ... I like the "system" idea.
In other words, what is the state of readiness of the higher-level language within the Red system?
 
10:05 AM
@seertaak For a bit of insight, here is the Red runtime's interpreter.reds. That is the embedded interpreter. It is written in Red/System, where Red/System uses the same homoiconic form as Red. However, Red/System cannot (natively) manipulate the code-as-data. You must call library functions to do so.
@seertaak We mostly measure that in terms of implementation parity with Rebol. Some things are further than others. I answered someone's question of "readiness" here recently: rebolforum.com/…
 
If I squint hard enough at interpreter.reds, I see C :) Thanks a lot for your advice. I'm going to install both Rebol3 and Red and have a play; but you've definitely helped me understand the lay of the land better
 
@seertaak I aim to inform. This is a good place to ask questions (in my opinion, the best)
@seertaak There is a benefit that it's C structured in a way that a Red/Rebol can load and process it, and that benefit is carried out through the implementation. Which is why it's so small. Red actually is a Rebol2 interpreter with the script source code for Red glued in as a resource. red-lang.org/p/download.html
Also, there are some ways in which it "reaches below C" for some CPU-specific stuff
Primary target for Red is Android/ARM
 
Oh, I agree completely. In fact the idea of having a C-style sub-language within a higher-level language was something that I wanted to do myself, for a more lisp language. It's nice to see that someone else thought the idea was appealing.
 
@seertaak Interesting that Haskell has cminusminus which is custom but doesn't fit this "full stack" concept...
So I think it's worth seeing what happens if someone goes through with it. I have my critiques, but as a general idea I find it compelling to try and make the curve smooth from high to low.
Anyway, the most interesting thing about Red is that it actually kind of works, even today.
@seertaak And when we talk about dependencies, check this out. I think it's worth it to have some kind of resistance, even as an artistic statement.
 
I think the Haskell community would find it difficult to follow the full stack concept, they're so drunk on the purity and dependent-typing coolaid that going so low-level would either result in unacceptably poor performance, or jettisoning their philosophical value :)
Sorry I hope I haven't offended any haskellers. It is a nice language; just that I like being able to mutate things.
 
10:24 AM
@seertaak I believe you should "get what you pay for". Haskell can be cryptic when it's not the way you are thinking. We have nice examples, one I frequently cite is our RSS feed aggregator for this room: reb4.me/r3/so-answers
 
Nice. Has the readability of Python IMHO.
 
@seertaak Parse is quite powerful... it's currently one of the dialect showpieces. Check this article: blog.hostilefork.com/why-rebol-red-parse-cool
 
10:37 AM
Interesting, thanks!
 
Sure. Ask questions as you have them. There's some definite bumps around here, we don't have a finished product, but we have some very promising ideas and people are using it.
My whole blog is a static website generator written in Rebol (for instance)
@seertaak Most Rebol development is being funded currently by Atronix: youtube.com/watch?v=jIw7aRP6JPU
 
10:52 AM
RedCon 2015 - Brno, this Saturday, nice :-) So far it seems DocKimbel, Andreas, pekr, Rebolek, Oldes and Cyphre attending :-)
5
 
@pekr You're good with the cameras, record a talk or two!
 
that's what I expressed - I don't have video lights, only photo strobes. Nor do I have external mic, so I might use only an in-camera one ...
Canon 70D ....
I might try, we will see ...
 
@pekr Well, even a podcast...maybe just record a state of the union, status of things...
Really that could all be done remotely these days, there's no real reason there can't be a way to catch up on things in audio, I listened to a lot of Haskell podcasts and it's something to do just while you are walking
 
I will see what I can do ...
 
11:08 AM
@pekr I wonder, you have been watching this GUI thing go back and forth for a while. I can--if I just sit down and do it--link up Rebol on Android under Qt via RenCpp. What do people want with Rebol on a mobile though?
There is a console on mobile, largely useless for anyone but a scripter/hacker.
Are people looking to write games? What? What would the source code for an application on mobile look like that anyone would care about?
 
Not sure about games. The GUI is tricky and I would divide it into several areas.
Back at the time, Carl claimed, that "multimedia is his second name", yet he did not introduce much of a media, in terms of View engine. But it had some potential and when you start desktop in R2 and run some demos, I still find it impressive, mostly in the code elegance area ...
Carl came with the non native GUI, and it was a problem back then. Ppl laughed at us, claiming we don't have native menus, mouse pointers, dialog boxes, etc. I tried to claim, that the age of the non conform Amiga like guis will come back.
And I was right - iPhone appeared and everything changed. Now MS tiles are even more basic, than old VID 1.0, look wise :-)
And then you stay divided between the need to do business apps, where you need data grids and other related elements, funky mobile UIs, and websites ...
Web browser somehow took over the corporate area, hence the toolits once again producing data grids and other elements. As for mobile, the situation is even more dificult ... is there any native data grid for those platforms? Is there one, which behaves the same?
And what does the client need - mobile app, which behaves the same on all platforms? Or not?
One week ago I talked to Cyphre. He thinks, that Doc following native widget set will get into trouble anyway. He makes apps for IOS and Android, and most often requested feature is, that companies want some special behaviour for the UI elements, which those platforms don't offer ...
so go figure ...
I still think, that several "competing" aproaches might be still useful. Small View engine, good for embedded. Some linking to Qt or other toolkit. Some dialect to get into the browser (if not full emscripten port), and hopefully we will be able to see Doc's idea about using native widgets.
As for small Games, the idea was to have small View engine, accelerated, having free form canvas (draw) to draw into and hence being able to do small games. But - I am not sure anyone would use Rebol to do games anyway ...
 
11:29 AM
@pekr Hmm. Well, I wish there was more consensus. It would be nice if--for instance Boron which is C++ and Qt based--could endorse RenCpp and use it. It's very hard when everyone insists on doing things their way, one developer per project.
I have done very little mobile development, only a few experiments. I do not care so much about mobile. Perhaps because I don't move around so much. :-)
Small screen, frustrating, no keyboard.
But I guess I should do a "Hello, Android" RenCpp + Qt demo
It's just hard to think of what people's goal really is, because I don't understand what the apps are they would be wanting to make.
 
12:02 PM
Well, Boron - it is here for quite some time, yet it did not get much traction between rebollers (imo). The think is, That Karl Robillard was not much active in the community and did it mainly for his game engine (IIRC)
 
 
6 hours later…
5:42 PM
I'n starting to move away from allowing arbitrary things in paths.
To me, there seems to be no question that we want a/(3 + 4) to be the same as a/7.
But if we have that, then paren-in-path is easy: a/(quote (your paren here)).
Ugly, maybe, but easy, yes.
And block-in-path is even easier: a/([your block here]).
Of course, the trivial case also solves string-in-path: a/({your string}).
Thoughts, anyone?
It of course can also be used to curtail url/email/file adsorption in paths.
Er, adsorption = interpolation.
 
@MarkI In the case of numbers specifically, that is what was chosen. But a/b and a/(b) are not generally the same.
@RebolBot
foo: [a 10 b 20]
print foo/a
print foo/b
print foo/10
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
10
20
none
 
The decision was that SELECTing based on an integer key was not common enough to warrant being the meaning for integers in paths. It could have been decided that foo/10 in the above case would give you back b, and you would do foo/(10) if you really wanted the tenth element of foo
I think it's all right for PATH! to be optimized for common use scenarios, even if it makes it wily
 
@HostileFork In Rebol as it is right now they are, for non-words. You want to change it?
 
@BrianH BTW, the source of my wanting to escalate the compose change was a reread of blog.hostilefork.com/arity-of-rebol-red-functions (oops, wrong link at first, that's the right one)
@MarkI I didn't say that. But I was just saying that integer is its own exception, there is not a general truth that a/b be equivalent to a/(b). Quite the contrary
takes-integer?: false

foo: function compose [
    str [string!]
    (either takes-integer? [value [integer!]] [])
] compose [
    print [{String is:} str]
    (either takes-integer? [print [{Value is:} value]] [])
]
It's nice to teach people about Rebol and say "look how pretty it is" so when something isn't as pretty as it should be, I notice. And that isn't as pretty as it should be.
takes-integer?: false

foo: function compose [
    str [string!]
    (if takes-integer? [value [integer!]])
] compose [
    print [{String is:} str]
    (if takes-integer? [print [{Value is:} value]])
]
that's pretty.
 
5:55 PM
@HostileFork And I assert that that is a general truth, as long as b evaluates to b.
And modulo syntax restrictions, which is what I thought we were talking about.
 
But, you wouldn't want to write a/(quote b) instead of a/b even if you could (and you can)
Or a/('b)
 
@HostileFork Sure. But I can't say wrapping a string in brackets is outrageously obfuscatory.
Remember, you're already in a path.
 
But if you go with the current (sensible, IMO) thinking that abc{def}ghi is a syntax error instead of being required to parse as equivalent to abc {def} ghi, there is no problem with strings in paths.
foo: [{abc} 10 {def} 20]
print foo/{abc} ; get 10
print foo/{def} ; get 20
 
@HostileFork Maybe. So far as you can tell. I am not so sure.
Example: How would you handle [a/a:b:c/"def"]? Syntax error?
>> [a/a:b:c/"def"]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [a/a:b:c/ "def"]
 
6:07 PM
Note you're running up against a NewPath issue
The IETF says: only alphanumerics, the special characters $-_.+!*'(),, and reserved characters used for their reserved purposes may be used unencoded within a URL.
In NewPath, you get paths... not URLs.
There are no URL literals outside of construction syntax
The URL! is produced as the evaluative result of the path
The above would presume the allowance of words with internal colons. So it would be a/a:b:c/"def"... a 3 element path, WORD! WORD! and STRING!
Thus if you had:
a: [a:b:c ["abc" 10 "def" 20]]
You would get 20 back from that
url@(http://hostilefork.com) => URL!, string type
http://hostilefork.com => path containing [http: none@ hostilefork.com]
Parentheses and dollar signs in URLs are a problem there.
>> load "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_(programming_language)"
 
6:22 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_ (programming_language)]
 
Apparently already a problem. :-/
Allowing parentheses unescaped in URLs is a very unfortunate thing. It messes with MarkDown and almost everything else.
Could address it with ^$, ^( and ^), pursuant to the current caret proposal. Carets aren't legal in URLs unescaped.
So load "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_^(programming_language^)"
Due to the awkwardness of parentheses in URLs integrating with languages and markup, most sites with any sense avoid them.
They can be escaped more "standardly" as %28 and %29
 
@pekr one tweak to your story: the iPhone appeared and UIs changed, but more than ever you are pressured to use the native UI, or at least its design language. That's because with modern phone and desktop platforms they change the details of the look of the OS with every major version, so if you're not using or emulating native UI elements your app looks out of place.
 
BrianH - I know, I told so to Cyphre, and he even somehow agreed, but also noted, that almost all of his apps introduce some custom made stuff ...
... not because he thinks it's cool, but because clients request him to do so ...
 
@HostileFork I'll take a look.
@pekr yup, which is why simply using native stuff isn't enough, you also need to query native metrics to make sure your custom stuff doesn't look weird. UI development in modern times is pretty annoying.
 
And we all thought it will get easier and somehow more organised. The total HTML5 take over did not happen yet too :-)
In few days, we should meet DocKimbel in Brno, hopefully he is going to share a few bits about his GUI plans (he has some small demo already)
 
6:38 PM
@HostileFork IETF is great. However, Rebol is better (TM). Remember, there are (at least) 3 kinds of urls in Rebol: those you can type, those you can construct, and those whose molded form can be typed. They are disjoint sets.
I agree with you, however, that the molded form of URLs has to match IETF requirements.
So, no unencoded second colons.
Unless part of the IP address.
And so on ...
 
@MarkI we have a few CC tickets related to that kind of thing.
 
@BrianH I had hoped, thanks for confirming!
 
Probably a superset, including Unicode characters. We can convert to punycode on use, when needed.
Some of the stuff we can access through URLs has direct Unicode support, so it won't need the punycode conversion.
 
@BrianH FWIW, I prefer url-encoded utf-8 to punycode. They're equally ugly, but the former is more standards-conformant.
@BrianH Really? There's a non-8-bit TCP/IP protocol? Is that ipv6 or something?
 
@MarkI actually, the internationalized URL standards use punycode, not url-encoded UTF-8.
 
6:47 PM
@BrianH Yah, I know. They're horribly, horribly broken!
 
@MarkI we have url schemes that access SQL databases. Others that work in Unicode too.
 
@BrianH Right, forgot about that.
@BrianH Just not over the Internet.
 
@MarkI Sure, over the internet, it's just that it's not our job to do the Unicode encoding all of the time. Sometimes it's someone else's job and we have to pass them UTF-16 or something. Not all port protocols are pure Rebol.
 
Just to follow up on a previous point, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalized_resource_identifier does not use punycode.
 
@MarkI still standard. And then the rest of the URL tends to be url-encoded UTF-8. This is a tricky enough task that I'd rather the port scheme do the work, and that mold not show us the ugly mess.
@MarkI "Some protocols may impose further transformations; e.g. Punycode for DNS labels."
Thanks for the link though, I'll add it to the relevant ticket.
 
6:55 PM
Some old, broken, protocols, that is :) But I think we agree on the whole nightmare-ishness of the current standards hodgepodge.
Interesting. Can't edit a message to be a reply-to?
 
@MarkI for instance, every protocol in current use that refers to the domain name, since en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalized_domain_name covers that part of the URL.
@MarkI I can. Browser-dependent bug?
 
@BrianH Thanks again. I must check at some point if you can (also) use url-utf8 on these TLDs.
@BrianH Most probably, UBF, user brain failure. I'll play with it in the sandbox.
 
@MarkI you can't use a % sign in a domain name, so I'm guessing not.
 
@BrianH Yep, that answers that.
For some reason, if it's restricted to the TLD, I can accept punycode. Good thing, because I have to :)
 
 
2 hours later…
9:17 PM
@HostileFork I've read NewPath. It executes parens. Therefore, you will still have a problem using a path to look up something in a block with a paren as its key. Are you saying you accept that (quote (the key paren goes here)) is going to be the way to do that?
 
9:59 PM
Nice, just one improvement to CommonMark.reb and now it passed 14 more tests.
 
 
2 hours later…
11:53 PM
I'm going to revisit the rebol Of The Year awards. 3 years behind now. So, unless people complain, Carl for two years ago, a vote for last year (Doc again? ;-) and then a new round of votes held here maybe?
 

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