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4:18 AM
@Morwenn Clang doesn't like this. :-/ Any idea why?
    std::array<internal::Loadable, 2> loadables = {
        deep ? "copy/deep" : "copy",
        *this
    };
/home/hostilefork/Projects/rencpp/src/rebol-binding/rebol-value.cpp:66: error: suggest braces around initialization of subobject [-Werror,-Wmissing-braces]
deep ? "copy/deep" : "copy",
^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I tried throwing braces in randomly but didn't find a combination that worked :-)
One thing is for sure, Ren Garden is a fairly mean test case for RenCpp
@johnk Any luck on the build?
Ha, Spotify scraped local tracks on my drive somehow.
For a second there I thought "wait, how did I get on spotify?"
Made this over 15 years ago, it sounds sort of like it could be in a final fantasy game
(The opening is certainly unoriginal, but it moves along.)
 
@HostileFork not yet ...
 
@johnk I'm not keeping count, but I think Shixin must have brought us to 10 or so now.
There really isn't going to be anyone left to watch the demo video who didn't help build it :-)
 
@draegtun Voted you up to 16. How about " type? http://abc Rebol has a rich set of built in datatypes including url!"
@HostileFork through the jetlag but back at work and so should have some time soon!
 
@RebolBot
length? {type? abc}
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 16
 
4:30 AM
If it weren't for the ? on length being evil, I'd say a length-based example would be good.
@RebolBot
length? http://a
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 8
 
You'll need to add or multiply or something to make the trick work best
@RebolBot
13 + length? http://
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 20
 
@RebolBot
length? {13 + length? http://}
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 20
 
4:35 AM
Something along those lines.
 
4:57 AM
@pekr Well, I suppose I might ask, would you try the Ren Garden and give some feedback?
Getting close to demo time.
 
Well, if I am supposed to compile anything, then surely not, at least for a week (have MSVC2010 installed, but busy with financial plans at work)
 
@pekr Well do you have a machine or virtual machine you feel safe running random EXEs from the internet on, if I say "I didn't deliberately put anything in it that will erase your hard drive"?
(But I didn't write the toolchain.)
I run everything in VMs
I mostly think Windows is the virus.
And I say that as an ex-MSFT'er.
The funny, but disturbing thing, about identity...
...is sometimes, car insurance, tax records, etc, is the best record of who was where when!
(Was just thinking about it, and I can't google search anything proving I ever worked for Microsoft with a browser.)
 
6:11 AM
@draegtun Just upvoted it to 18. When you get to 19, may I propose the following: "AUD$79.0 = EUR$79.0" An equality check on two values of type money!. The check fails with the following message: "AUD$79.00 not same denomination as EUR$79.00". I think that's pretty impressive.
 
@mydoghasworms So I wrote autocomplete just because you asked.
 
@HostileFork You didn't! :-D You da man!
 
"look guy, what do YOU do for a living?"
<sigh> "You didn't hold the gun sideways."
@mydoghasworms Anyway, as mentioned in the email, it's your help that will advance it: metaeducation.com/media/shared/dockimbel/ren-garden.exe
And it's nice that earl and others are tracking down issues, like the copy bug
 
@HostileFork My sincere apologies. I have not yet read that mail :-/
 
@mydoghasworms Why do I write you if you don't read what I write?!?! :-P
 
6:19 AM
@HostileFork Oh, but I will. Just not in the time frame you may have expected.
 
Once upon a time, people thought my ideas and comments had value.
(I was actually paid for it)
Nowadays, I see my comments and ideas are trifles, might as well be YouTube comments.
I think we have gotten to that point. Personal email from me = youtube comment.
(Pardon me as I cry thinking about the implications of the statement.)
 
@HostileFork It's just that there are so many of them (words on the interweb, that is). In the old days, if you were a working in a railroad camp, you got the newspaper like once a month, and you read every word and savored it. Now, words flood over us in such an abundance, giving us no time to find nuggets of true wisdom in any. But don't worry, I have every intention of reading what you write.
In fact, I was saving it for later when I had a quiet moment to myself, with a cup of cocoa, sitting in a corner under a lamp, where I could really absorb what you had written.
 
@mydoghasworms Bridge to nowhere and you're getting there fast :-) Or other artists say Full Steam Ahead!. Le sigh.
 
7:24 AM
@HostileFork Would this work: patents.justia.com/patent/6665866
 
@iceflow19 Never seen it
I don't know where that thing even is.
 
chuckles
 
@iceflow19 I was young and thought I needed the money.
 
Nice patent block, btw
 
@iceflow19 I actually do take a lot of random shots at MS these days.
And it's not nice to kick someone when they're down.
 
7:30 AM
@HostileFork I can tell
Im curious whats your thoughts on 10?
 
They actually are doing kind of good work, not that anyone bothers to pay attention.
@iceflow19 Well one thought is why it's called 10, you saw the technical explanation why? :-P
 
Isn't there already a 9 according to the OS
 
Ya thats what I meant
Im excited they're adding usability features to cmd after God knows how long everyone's been asking
Still not linux shell, but meh
Overall though I like the middle ground they struck between 7 and 8
@HostileFork ?
 
@iceflow19 Windows is attacked a lot, I knew guys working on the crazy stuff like all the shifting of blocks of code out of memory... it's actually for all the malignment the most sophisticated security based OS there.
No one else has to worry about it, because they're not attacked that often.
Until they are. It's easier to hack a mac
 
7:39 AM
Understandable, btw I built the latest ren-garden
I have to say, its getting better by the minute.
 
@iceflow19 neat! Well, you can try x: 10 and then watch x and then (Ctrl-T) and then... print x
@iceflow19 You just want to be my friend :-) But thanks for saying so.
 
@HostileFork Shoot, I thought I was being discreet about my intentions ;)
 
@iceflow19 Abandon all hope ye who befriend me. But yeah, there's a little skeletal autocomplete in there. try ap (tab)
 
Ya I already saw the tab feature and the history
OO
 
What I like to believe, is that the code is just moronically obvious
To the point that anyone can contribute.
 
7:43 AM
t: 'bob
watch bob
It kills it, btw
 
hrrrm
 
found that while messing around
sorry watch t
t: 'bob
watch t
 
I would like to break it out, but my concern is, that if I break it out it might mean it's harder to build.
So I need advice on how to do that.
 
Break what out? I missed the context
 
@iceflow19 Break ren garden out from RenCpp, as its own project.
 
7:47 AM
Ah
 
They really should be separate.
 
well, couldn't they just be side-by-side, just as with the rebol source?
 
Cant you add rencpp as a submodule to a separate rengarden repo?
 
@Adrian Well, I'm ready to listen when you guys have a plan.
Yes, it could be done just as the rebol thing is done now.
@iceflow19 Submodules are getting bad press lately.
 
Really?
Hmm, didn't know.
 
7:51 AM
@iceflow19 I was hoping sharp people like yourself and @Morwenn would have ideas. It's worked so far, e.g. for test.
 
@HostileFork that article is from 2012 - has the situation changed at all since?
 
@Adrian I'm a dinosaur, remember? (And despised, apparently.)
Don't ask me about what kids today do.
Net two upvotes. Burn in hell, Internet!
Oh, hm.
Well that actually is several upvotes and several downvotes.
Perhaps I should put it in perspective.
I dunno, +2 is something.
Sometimes, one little thing does set me off, doesn't it?
 
@HostileFork Interesting.
 
That guy was really jerky
(optimizer)
I don't know, that he seemed to think it was being done for fun.
I thought it was supposed to be fun
But hours later, all I found was "the world is terrible"
Which is not how I like to spend hours of my time, on a little puzzle
I'd rather people have a nicer spirit
He had a goal, you can see it if you read the thing, he wanted to inch it to java
 
@HostileFork Well I did Config Management at my last place. But they we're set in ways that were big no-no's. It took everything I had to convince them to go to proper agile, an not the strange waterfall-agile monstrosity they concocted.
We were in the process of moving to git, when I left. We never really got the topic of shared code between repos.
 
8:03 AM
@iceflow19 Well, if you want to break free from toolchains... we're trying to tell that story here. It's a bit difficult, but I think if you look at it, it's in there. Try for x [1 thru 10] [print x] :-)
I'm known for being "my own country" sort of, and not afraid to argue.
(I'd like to live in peace, with reasonable folks.)
 
@HostileFork Im opinionated too, there's nothing wrong with that. :)
 
But, Ren Garden may just be the cross platform shipping "Firefox"
Nailing errors Rebol and Red won't fix on their own.
I know it's new, and just beginning.
But it's fast.
 
@HostileFork (Aside) Maybe that should have read "with reasonable forks".
 
@mydoghasworms Heh
Well people who have used Ren Garden so far say "hum, well, keep going." No one but DocKimbel is saying "stop."
And he isn't even saying that, I just mean, we are at a point of question of who will be delivering the EXE
And that is as much as I will say about the current dispute.
But we must realize that, at the end of the day, that is sort of the question
can we present a unified front
I'd like to say the answer is yes.
Trouble is, lots of personality here.
Dripping with personality, you might say.
So who backs off on what when and where. I'm leaving the negotiation table open.
I like to think, that, reason triumphs in the end.
Not ego.
But we shall see, I guess.
@mydoghasworms The "fork" is a joke. I actually hate it when open source efforts can't agree.
 
I like ren-garden, Im just wary of the size of the extra stuff. aka QT
 
8:12 AM
@iceflow19 Well, that's just life, I mean if you run a Red app on Android the phone runs Android. RenCpp is O(100K)
The actual binding isn't that big.
I think, 100K is probably about the limit of what it can be.
I could attack it and take down a kilobyte here or there, but it's going to be in that neighborhood.
 
I know. Is the dispute over which way rencpp will go or is it over rengarden?
 
And of course, once you link to Qt, you've given up the boat entirely
@iceflow19 Well I think the dispute is, if I actually am willing to call it a dispute, and bear in mind this is not something I should even be talking about but I will in the minor way that someone has to...
I guess, the question is, when users want a package of the system
Are they willing to wait for the dreamed-up OS that exists only in the mind of a few wild-eyed Rebol folks, the R3-GUI that they can't actually make much less interact with the public and share
Might Ren Garden be a "faster" delivery.
It seems fast, to some, lately.
It's big, but 10MB with DLLs as an all in one exe doesn't make most people blink, last I checked
I download cat PNG's that are that size
 
Well, maybe it could be downloaded through the default red and rebol consoles?
 
I have opinions, but war benefits no one.
So, I am still trying to defer to Nenad and Carl.
Trying, but it gets hard, when I'm not feeling heard.
Those guys aren't well known for their public debates and interaction with feedback :-)
 
You are heard, some people just don't agree with you, that's all.
 
8:20 AM
@rebolek Well what would you say, is the #1 bad idea I have?
I will say, that in this construction syntax mire, it seems we don't have any great ideas.
 
@HostileFork Not sure about #1 but some of your renaming efforts do not make sense to me.
 
I proposed things like #<word with spaces> and now I'm saying what about word^{word with spaces} so really, it's just brainstorming
It all looks kind of bad, so we should think more on it.
 
I'm interested in Ren Garden but look at the requirements:
* Rebol3 - any C-compiler
* Red - R2.exe
* Ren Garden - basically new machine
 
@rebolek Well, Qt is an OS.
RenCpp is not Ren Garden
 
@rebolek I think we need a new distribution model.
 
8:24 AM
No requirement to need Qt to run RenCpp
 
@HostileFork A framework
 
@iceflow19 I exaggerate to try and speak of the size and scope, Qt is big.
 
@HostileFork Last time I looked, Qt was megabloated GUI framework, not OS.
 
They see themselves as a java competitor
 
That's sad.
 
8:26 AM
Well, they're lighter than Java!
 
lol
 
And schooled with C++ aesthetics
But fat as heck, yes.
 
@HostileFork That's what's frightening me.
 
Pimpl all the way
 
@iceflow19 I see you've read the source
@rebolek I don't want RenCpp and Qt to get conflated.
 
8:27 AM
@HostileFork Yup
 
Ren Garden was just a little demo program
It got big, after a few features
And it's kind of cool, so you might like to see it.
It is not some kind of mandate that Rebol suddenly get 10MB bigger
 
@HostileFork I belive that, I'm just not going to download few GBs just to build little demo program :(
 
@rebolek Well I did offer you an exe: metaeducation.com/media/shared/dockimbel/ren-garden.exe
If you have a windows-based VM to run it in, or trust that I won't delete your hard drive
 
@HostileFork You did and thanks for it. It just doesn't run under Wine.
 
@HostileFork Which antiviruses scream about.
AVG was flipping out over it.
 
8:30 AM
@rebolek Well, be my guest on figuring out how to build and package it better, but unfortunately, there is no packager that can skip the Qt DLLs.
Ah, sigh, I had another build where i did that NSIS nullsoft installer
I guess I could go do that again
But the antivirus these days hates anything that looks like an installer
 
Actually I would prefer Linux version to Windows one.
 
Well, linux is where it's easiest to build
 
@HostileFork Right after you download all dependecies :)
 
@rebolek I don't understand what the aversion is too, since the graphical subsystems that ship with OS's aren't small either. GTK ain't small by any standard.
 
@iceflow19 Yes, but I have GTK preinstalled. If I was masochist, I would have KDE based distro and I would not complain.
 
8:33 AM
@rebolek Well, the rest of us are building it. So you just need a rencpp directory, peer with a rebol directory. Like give them the same parent.
Then there will be 9 irritating things
Then we will fix those 9 things and it will work :-)
 
Ah, OK :)
I guess I'll wait :)
 
(Sometimes I do crack myself up, I do hope you guys sort of enjoy it. I know I'm not like, a comedian and no one collected money at the door. Doesn't mean I don't make a good joke now and then.)
@iceflow19 I hate GTK, passionately.
 
@HostileFork The feeling is mutual, its ugly.
 
0
Q: Modeless, parentless wxDialog still always above wxFrame window in z-order?

Head GeekMy program opens a wxFrame-based window and multiple modeless and parentless wxDialog-based windows. It all works beautifully, except that the wxDialog-based windows insist on always being on top of the wxFrame-based one. I know about wxDIALOG_NO_PARENT, and I'm using it. The dialogs stay open w...

Good Lord... I did not expect anyone to go to that level of effort for something this trivial. I'd mark this as accepted for the effort even if it didn't work, but I'm happy to report that it does -- you've nailed it. :-D Thank you! — Head Geek Sep 27 '11 at 11:29
 
@HostileFork Look, I'm interested in finding out what RenGarden is, as I still don't know. But right now it just seems that it would take too much time to get it running, so I'll wait until it gets in more stable and usable state.
 
8:40 AM
@rebolek It's a console, demos the C++ API. It does some things you might imagine a demo of the C++ API might do, and some things you might not have guessed.
It's not rocket science, although, I would say that RenCpp is kind of clever itself.
Ren Garden is just a "RenCpp app"
 
I like the possibility of there being additional debug tools that hook into the runtimes themselves.
I heart watch
 
@iceflow19 I don't know how closely you're following my randomness, but. I am of course thinking about questions like how to cancel watches in infinite loops...
And I do actually have an answer for that
(In fact, I also have several ideas about snapshotting state and VMs of all the memory... )
Rebol is an interpreted language, you just snap that stuff.
I push it here and there, like with the tabs :-)
 
We could refer to rengarden as an IDC, an integrated development console?
 
@iceflow19 Heh, good coinage
@iceflow19 you've tried stunts like (Ctrl-Space) then buffer ["Some" space || "Selection" | space "Thingy!"] :-P
Also achievable with console/meta [buffer ["Some" space || "Selection" | space "Thingy!"]]
AmICraZy?!
 
OO AH... Again its an IDC
 
8:49 AM
Well, you're a C++ programmer, c'mon
 
The Ren Garden IDC
 
Fix my bad code!
I'll happily go back to working on RenCpp
@iceflow19 It's cute though, isn't it? :-)
 
Well, now that Ren Garden is getting to be pretty cool (and light-years more usable than the default consoles), I guess I'll have to help in one way or another.
 
@iceflow19 +1.
 
@HostileFork Yes, its very cute.
@HostileFork What if you could open just a normal editor tab, besides console tabs?
 
8:56 AM
@iceflow19 In the "big picture" @Adrian wants to swap out the QTextEdit for a web widget, he's all about the journaling. I have tried (if you look) to make such a choice to be not that big a deal.
@iceflow19 Well, what I thought I'd do for (e.g. when watch has output) I would just have an alert in the watch list, so if there is print output during watch it has a flag. That flag you click and you see what the thing you watched printed.
And with the console API able to put source in the console, useful for tutorials, I thought maybe it might be useful if you wanted to load a prompt with the source of a function... but
 
Its an interesting idea.
Well, anyways I need to hit the hay. I have to be up at 7:30
 
@iceflow19 Yip yip.
 
9:16 AM
Bah, re-reading that thing with Optimizer is making me mad again.
He didn't have to be that rude.
Well, for what it's worth, other people kind of agreed with me.
That he could have taken it down a notch.
It's just a game, guys.
Well, whatever.
@iArnold What was with the metal video? :-)
 
Does this mean that Git and Github are not that easy to use after all? github.com/red/red/commit/…
Stay close to the Metal @HostileFork
 
@iArnold Funny that in half a second I thought to observe your presence and then you said something about git :-)
It's a day that ends in Y, and iArnold has an unfavorable opinion of Git.
 
:-)
 
Git's not so bad
 
It looks like an empty merge of the master branch into itself :-D
But I think ultimately it means that a new release is on its way.
 
9:22 AM
@iArnold I am no expert, I have no idea what that means, in my experience you can't do a push with no data. I would guess that commit has some metadata, maybe tags or something?
I'm sure people with day-to-day git know-how will have an answer for you.
 
@johnk Thanks. Yeah I've been pushing the datatypes angle very hard on most answers!
@mydoghasworms Also thanks! That would be a great example unfortunately Rebol 3 does like the currency descriptor (yet) :(
For 18 though I did go with $0.1 + $0.2 = $0.3 to show off money! high precision.
 
@draegtun What do you think of my idea of weaving length? in?
 
18
A: Showcase your language one vote at a time [experimental challenge]

draegtunRebol 18 $0.1 + $0.2 = $0.3 The above returns true because these are money! datatypes. So ideal for high precision arithmetic. 17 <div class="red"> This is a tag! datatype. 16 24:00 - now/time This returns how long there is left in the day (in HH:MM:SS - a time! datatype). NB. This c...

 
(again ignoring, the vendetta against LENGTH? and aiming for LENGTH)
 
@HostileFork Where's that? (I haven't read through yesterdays/todays chat yet)
 
9:27 AM
Up there somewhere ^ :)
 
OK give me a sec to catch up :)
 
@draegtun And I've decided to give out poisoned cookies to people, er, I mean, EXEs, if you would like to try the project.
"I promise I won't delete your hard drive"(tm)
 
length? like that maybe a bit confusing!
@HostileFork What a bit like this NPM package (that was doing the rounds yesterday) - news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8947493
:)
May take you up on EXE... but would like to try compiling Ren Garden first.
Work calls now :(
 
9:51 AM
@draegtun Well I keep asking people to join up, it feels kind of populist...
I've taken two months of my life to build it!
No one paid me.
Maybe I sometimes sound a bit grumpy about it, although I do realize these are projects that aren't financially based, more idealistic.
 
10:49 AM
@HostileFork I just read your mail. Thanks for your reply. OK, so the reference to iPython helped. So is that what you are trying to develop? Because I think that is really cool and something that I think can grab people's imagination. Does it have any capabilities like that yet (e.g. showing graphs in the console)?
The last .exe I downloaded though is infested.
Sorry, it is difficult to get time at work to participate here when they always insist you go to some meeting or other!
 
 
1 hour later…
11:55 AM
@draegtun You've just given me an idea! How about we have two answers to that question: one for Rebol 2 and one for Rebol 3? People scrolling through the answers to that question will encounter Rebol not once, but twice! In fact, we can pull that trick on a lot of Code Golf answers to gain some more exposure.
It's like when Merseybeat magazine did a popularity contest to find the most popular band.
Sorry, Mersey Beat.
Mersey Beat was a music publication in Liverpool, England in the early 1960s. It was founded by Bill Harry, who was one of John Lennon's classmates at Liverpool Art College. The paper carried news about all the local Liverpool bands, and stars who came to town to perform. The Beatles had a close association with Mersey Beat, which carried many exclusive stories and photos of them. They also published several of Lennon's early writings, including a history of the band, and occasional comical classified advertisements by him as space filler. == Beginnings == A fellow student, John Ashcroft,...
Oh wait, the link I gave was supposed to point to one of the subheadings where it tells the tale of how both Rory Storm & The Hurricanes and the Beatles cheated by voting for themselves multiple times.
 
 
2 hours later…
1:53 PM
posted on January 27, 2015 by qtxie

FIX: better handling for Ctrl-C and Ctrl-D.

 
 
2 hours later…
3:26 PM
@mydoghasworms It does, funny. Well, these things happen.
There's a line in the LEGO movie where the character is going on about all the great things President Business's company makes are.
And he is listing all the things they make, and gets to voting machines.
Then he goes "wait a second"
 
posted on January 27, 2015 by szeng

[Bug] Reported by MichaT from altme. This is what the actual result: >> remove-each n s: [ 1 2 3 4] [ print n if n = 2 [ break] true ] s 1 2 == [3 4] This is what's expected: >> remove-each n s: [ 1 2 3 4] [ print n if n = 2 [ break] true ] s 1 2 == [2 3 4]

posted on January 27, 2015 by szeng

[Comment] Fixed by: https://github.com/zsx/r3/commit/b3364594eff99aeef092d57fda0e51cb1335b5e4

posted on January 27, 2015 by szeng

[Comment] Fixed by: https://github.com/zsx/r3/commit/63115b1f6260b91b053737e698ff3b8c028b2980

 
4:05 PM
Hi all, added a bit of code and a short description of Rebol on Rosettacode site.
 
@HostileFork Tried std::array</* ... */> stuff = {{ /* ... */ }};?
Clang tends to want a double pair of braces instead of a simple one.
That's because std::array doesn't actually have an std::initializer_list constructor. It only stores a C array and uses aggregate initialization.
Therefore, you need braces to tell that you initialize the aggregate (std::array), then braces to initialize the internal C array.
There are rules in the standard to allow braces omissions, but Clang decided to put a warning anyway.
 
4:23 PM
@Morwenn That intializer list syntax was goofy when I was trying to wrestle with it last week (Learning C++ for about 2 weeks). Double brackets seem to confuse the issue even if it is actually the internal structure.
 
Initializer list syntax is great. But you have subtleties and backward-retrocompatibility things and brace elision... Good idea, too many rules.
 
I'm sure I will get more used to it. My crappy emulator doesn't work yet, but there is an initializer list
 
 
1 hour later…
5:45 PM
@mydoghasworms The requirements are that you don't give extra code examples for each answer :( If you see my original revisions early on it had extra code to help explain it more. Certainly helps but you're meant to provide just a description (though I have pushed it a few times!).
@iArnold There is already a Rebol Rosetta area... but all in uppercase!
Got quite a few entries already and a few users - rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:REBOL_User
 
6:02 PM
Smart site! But it does say about REBOL: This page is a stub. It needs more information! You can help Rosetta Code by filling it in!
 
 
4 hours later…
10:08 PM
@HostileFork started dling virtual box
it is going to take 8 hours?
anyway, going to try and build rencpp soon
 
@JacobGood1 I was doing the same last night. I went with a 64bit kubuntu and got qt installed and running (another large download).
 
I am going to roll with mint
 
Distracted now patching the bot's server as there is a new linux glibc vulnerability out there
@JacobGood1 I haven't played with mint for a while. I have to admit KDE seems a bit heavy for a vm
 
@johnk did vb take this long to download? Seems that something is going wrong...
 
With hindsight I would have gone back to xfce (xubuntu)
 
10:14 PM
im going to look for a torrent
 
That's odd, it's very quick from here (getting ~3MB/s)
 
10:28 PM
hmm, i guess ill try again later
 

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