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1:36 AM
Hmmm. #@<some email string> and #%<some filename with spaces>.
Nice.
But what about URL :-/ The only weird thing in URL is colon and that's taken by get-word
#u is a bit ugly.
One could be random with something like #*<moc.krofelitsoh://ptth> I guess.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:01 AM
@foo needs to just become a string and be the same type as foo@bar.com
Email is an old-timey name, and I think that with Red shifting "decimal!" to "float!" it's okay to give it a new name.
> @ - in Czech this symbol has widely used name zavináč, which means pickled herring or rollmops. The @-symbol arrived to Czech in e-mail addresses in late 90' and was not used there ever before, so the visual appearance was the only reason for choosing its name. There was even TV show in 1999 named Zavináč[9] dedicated to Internet. Similarly in other languages was this symbol named like little monkey or snail.
Any votes for calling it zavináč!?
pickledherring! and snail! are also available. snail is very close to "email".
Among choices like the too-concrete email!, the too-computational handle!, the "overlaps with AT keyword" at!, I think I would go with address!
As in, when I @ someone in chat or on Twitter, I am addressing them. And an email is an email address.
Anyway, dialect design would be enhanced if the @foo was working.
 
3:39 AM
@M0dem Welcome back. Have free time now? :-)
 
oh, hi
I really wish :(
just when I have to leave...
its annoying
but whats the time where you're at right now?
 
Hm, the VCR is blinking 12:00. I think that means it's 12:00.
 
thats odd, its *:39
are you available tommorow morning?
 
My schedule is erratic. I'm around if I'm around.
Feel free to just ping and see.
 
Ok, thanks for being extremely helpful.
@HostileFork Goodnight!
 
3:44 AM
Nite
 
 
1 hour later…
4:48 AM
posted on November 23, 2014 by Wade McReynolds

Has anybody made a vim syntax file for Red, or do people use REBOL ones? Thanks for any info. Wade

 
 
6 hours later…
10:30 AM
 
11:27 AM
https://github.com/red/red/pull/992
GitHub
Red Pull Req—FIX: issue #990 (SWITCH local object! path! broken)
qtxie
1416720345
 
12:15 PM
Hum, just noticed the Rebol favicon being used by some forum I'd not heard of. "rebol.informe.com". rebol.informe.com/portal.html
I wouldn't mind except for the fact that it's being covered in spam :-/
And you can't report spam without having an account on it.
Seems to be MaxV's site... can anyone ask him to tidy up that spam?
Search spam being as it may be, and perfect dieting aside, a quick chat search shows how tough "Red" is to own: chat.stackoverflow.com/search?q=red
What's black-and-white-and-red-all-over...? The logos. :-)
It's going to be true for I don't know how long that finding "Red the language" will probably be an associative cluster with Rebol.
Were I neuron in a collective brain (which, hm, I may be)...then I say managing the Rebol action potential is important. We saw how the Hackernews thing caused the reddit things and it quickly flattens out on Rebol.
So I say that it's still worthwhile to keep any Rebol resources at least as spam free as we can. Unfortunately reboltutorial is now some spamdexer with "The Real Challenge Of Diagnosing The PCOS In Adolescent Girls" and "Do You Really Need A Greenhouse?". Can we spray some DPW on that?
 
12:45 PM
Have to admit I still have an eerie fascination with the Rebol Bazaar logo.
It's somewhat mystifying and original. It's that spam that shows up and you go "wait, what is that?"
It contains some measure of intent, and I do not know how to write a program that would have come up with it. Is that how creativity is determined?
They call it the "uncanny valley" when you face this kind of thing, where I go... "but...why is the B white?" and there are so many questions one could ask.
It has those colored dots, kind of like the sprinkles on cupcakes.
Anyway, it baffles me. Perhaps why I am drawn so much to minimalism and cleanroom ideas like Rebol/Red...I just installed an app update and it was 50MB. 50MB of...what?
This used to be the Rebol sales pitch, and no one listened. Don't have the link but there was some rant on Carl's blog when he wanted to do an installation of something--maybe apache server or somesuch--and it was like "do you want to install 100MB of dependencies" and he just got in a fury and said "NO! THIS MUST STOP!"
@pekr you know what I'm saying. :-P
 
 
2 hours later…
2:29 PM
@HostileFork Hi, just wanted to see if you're available right now. :)
 
I suppose. :-)
 
Oh hi. :)
 
So last we were speaking I was introducing you to PARSE.
21 hours ago, by HostileFork
@RebolBot
copy/part to-string read http://hostilefork.com 100
Hm, it didn't preserve formatting there.
 
yes, I believe so
 
But in Rebol, a lot of types like URL or Date or Email or Tag don't need to be in quotes like strings.
 
2:31 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== url!
 
thats interesting
>> print "test"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
test
 
>> type? <a href="http://hostilefork.com">
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== tag!
 
how did you do that '>>' thing?
 
2:33 PM
As in "how does RebolBot work" or how did I type >>? I just typed it, but I did a shift enter for an empty line and set a fixed font.
 
oh, nvm, the lag messed me up
 
Because if I don't StackOverflow chat does "magic" and turns http://hostilefork.com into hostilefork.com
 
oh, ok
>> type? index.php
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: index.php has no value
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
:P
 
2:34 PM
>> type? %index.php
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== file!
 
oh, cool
 
Well, the neat thing is you can write code that "sniffs" and detects the type it gets.
 
yes
type? %*.php
>> type? %*.php
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== file!
 
2:36 PM
Nice.
 
@RebolBot
foo: function [value] [
    case [
        string? value [print ["It's a string and it is" value]]
        url? value [print ["It's a url and it is" value]]
        file? value [print ["It's a file and it is" value]]
    ]
]

foo hostilefork.com
foo "Woo a string"
foo %index.php
 
@HostileFork That's very interesting.
 
Hmmm... oh, oops.
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
It's a url and it is hostilefork.com
It's a string and it is Woo a string
It's a file and it is index.php
== true
 
In any case, you can see that there are a lot of types that have "literal" formats.
At some amount of cost. For instance, to divide you must write a / b (with spaces) since a/b is different. We believe it worth the cost.
 
2:39 PM
I love spaces
I do it no other way :)
 
@M0dem Here is a nice program that we use to get the answers on stackoverflow via a feed. It shows, I think, the literacy of the language: reb4.me/cc?s=http%3A//reb4.me/r/x/so-rebol-answers.r
 
ok :)
 
Well, the thing is, it's a "language construction set"
It's actually sort of a competitor to XML in a way, it's a notational format that is tied in with an interpreter that happens to use the format.
Look at something like this:
@RebolBot
a: b: c: 20
print a
print b
print c
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
20
20
20
 
What's going on there?
@RebolBot
length? [a: b: c: 20 print a print b print c]
 
2:43 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 10
 
I'm looking at the code stuff you linked me to and your code on here.
 
You have 10 "symbols"
 
That so-rebol-answers.r is quite syntax colorful
 
@RebolBot
code: [a: b: c: 20 print a print b print c]
foreach symbol code [
   print ["Type of symbol is" type? symbol "and value is" mold symbol]
]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Type of symbol is set-word! and value is a:
Type of symbol is set-word! and value is b:
Type of symbol is set-word! and value is c:
Type of symbol is integer! and value is 20
Type of symbol is word! and value is print
Type of symbol is word! and value is a
Type of symbol is word! and value is print
Type of symbol is word! and value is b
Type of symbol is word! and value is print
Type of symbol is word! and value is c
 
2:44 PM
hmm
 
So here you have this block of data. Think of it as if it were any old JSON or XML or what-have-you
It just kind of notices when things end in ":" and types those elements as set-word!, if it looks integer-y it's an integer etc.
But it's just data.
Until you hand it to the evaluator and say "give it life!" and the evaluator churns through it.
But you don't have to hand it to the default evaluator. Again, it's just data. You could write your own interpretation of it.
 
What does mold symbol mean?
 
"Mold" is a sort of odd name meaning "make a source-loadable version of the symbol"
(as a string)
It's the inverse of LOAD
 
ok
oh, now I understand the code a bit more
is symbol a keyword?
 
@RebolBot
code-string: {print 1 + 2}
print ["Length of code string is" length? code-string] ; count of characters
code: load code-string
print ["Length of code is" length? code] ; count of symbols
append code [+ 3]
print ["After appending, length of code is" length? code]
new-code-string: mold code
print ["Updated code is of length" length? new-code-string]
@RebolBot delete
 
2:49 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Length of code string is 11
Length of code is 4
After appending, length of code is 6
Updated code is of length 17
 
@M0dem No keywords in Rebol. (Another mysterious claim.) Does the above make sense?
The string "print 1 + 2" is 10 characters long
 
hmm, im trying to digest it
 
But, when loaded into symbolic form, it is of length 4. print, 1, +, 2.
 
ohhh
 
Then we add another + and 3 to get print 1 + 2 + 3
Then we turn that into a string with mold, of length 17
 
2:51 PM
yes, thats interesting
but is, for example, a: a variable declaration?
 
Nope.
 
@RebolBot
a: "world"
print ["Hello", mold a] ; my comment
 
@M0dem That's very interesting.
 
hmm?
 
@RebolBot
some-stuff: [a: b: c: d:]
print [length? some-stuff]
print "No variables were made or harmed in this process, it's just data, remember? Until you execute it!"
 
2:53 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
4
No variables were made or harmed in this process, it's just data, remember?  Until you execute it!
 
@M0dem It doesn't care for your comma.
 
ohh
lol
@RebolBot
a: "world"
print ["Hello" mold a] ; my comment
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Hello "world"
 
@RebolBot
code: [a: 10]
print a
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: a has no value
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
2:54 PM
:P
 
@RebolBot
code: [a: 10]
do code
print a
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
10
 
See the difference?
 
thats weird
so you say nothing is a variable until runtime?
nvm ^
 
In Rebol, no...it's an interpreter and that's how it works. Red is hybridized, so it does compilation where it can.
 
2:56 PM
@RebolBot
a: world
print ["Hello" mold a]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: world has no value
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
@RebolBot
a: "world"
print ["Hello" a]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Hello world
 
thats seems awfully like a variable to me :(
 
Seems like it!
So Rebol has objects in it. And the weird bit there is that the evaluator, when it ran across the sequence of symbols a: then followed by "world", what it did is it took the object to which a: had been bound and poked the value of "world" into it.
But take a step back and see it for what it is
 
3:00 PM
Ok
 
Again, just data. You can come up with a language if you like...
@RebolBot
my-idea: function [data] [
    foreach symbol data [
        either set-word? symbol [
            print ["SW" reverse mold symbol]
        ] [
            print symbol
        ]
    ]
]

my-idea ["Hello" world: "how are you" today:]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Hello
SW :dlrow
how are you
SW :yadot
 
Again, don't let it fool you... Rebol is really a data exchange format. And a fairly rich one, at that.
It "dresses up" like an ordinary looking language.
 
ok
 
@RebolBot
length? [() () ()]
 
3:03 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 3
 
@M0dem Welcome to weird. Parentheses are actually objects in the data structure!
That block contains three paren groups.
 
oh, ok
@RebolBot
length? [{} {} {}]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 3
 
That's 3 strings. Curly braces are an alternative notation for string.
And quite a nice one, actually.
>> print {"It's nice when you can use quotes," said {@HostileFork}, "not to mention apostrophes and paired braces inside a string, isn't it?}
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
"It's nice when you can use quotes," said {@HostileFork}, "not to mention apostrophes and paired braces inside a string, isn't it?
 
3:05 PM
Unpaired curly braces need to be escaped (with caret)
 
ohh
in python you have do something like:
 
>> print {If this ever happens, ^} is how you handle it.}
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
If this ever happens, } is how you handle it.
 
print "\"stuff\" said whoever"
or:
print '"stuff" said whoever'
 
Yes, well, Rebol is very much based on trying to correct some basic ergonomics.
On your keyboard, which asymmetric delimiter do you have that does not require hitting "SHIFT"?
 
3:08 PM
uhh :P I don't actually know what an asymmetric delimiter is
 
Well, using quotes to surround a string like "some string" has the same character beginning as ending.
So it is symmetrical
Rebol gets some oomph out of for instance having curly braces as an alternative, {some string}...it's a bit liberating. So we'll call those "asymmetric delimiters".
 
oh
 
(Languages which offer the alternative 'some string' with single quotes have always baffled me; I'm not ever sure exactly what the point is. What characteristic is it of a string that makes it likely to include double quotes but not single quotes?)
Usually I just get miffed about having to standardize on one or the other when it seems strings are equally likely to contain a single quote or double quote.
But programmers generally need some asymmetric delimiters for code blocks.
 
oh, yes
 
Wouldn't you think the most natural choice would be one that didn't require people to hit "shift" on the average international keyboard?
Hence, our icon. [o]
 
3:12 PM
oh, lol
 
[o]
 
[o]
>> print [o]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: o has no value
** Where: print
** Near: print [o]
 
lol
>> [o]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [o]
 
3:13 PM
>> length? [o]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 1
 
>> first [o]
 
thats exactly what I was gonna do :)
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== o
 
>> type? first [o]
 
3:14 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== word!
 
>> type? mold first [o]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== string!
 
@RebolBot
o: "lol"
print [o]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
lol
 
>> type? load first [o]
 
3:14 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-expect-arg.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: load does not allow word! for its source argument
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
>> type? length? [o]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== integer!
 
type? 3.141592654
float
>> type? 3.141592654
 
In Red, yes. Rebol picked the unfortunate name "decimal!" for that.
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== decimal!
 
3:16 PM
lol, ok :D
 
Most people like to think of decimal as meaning something like arbitrary precision arithmetic.
 
>> print [mold type? length [o]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: length has no value
** Where: print
** Near: print [mold type? length [o]]
 
woops
 
You need a question mark on length, although that is actually subject to change currently.
 
3:17 PM
>> print [mold type? length? [o]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
integer!
 
Many people (myself included) believe the question mark should only be applied on things that return boolean results
 
thats funny how it has the exclamation point
 
Datatypes end in exclamation points.
It allows you to have variables with the names of the type.
 
Ok
 
3:18 PM
@RebolBot
integer: 10
print integer
print type? integer
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
10
integer!
 
Good? Bad? I don't know. It's the way it is. Some of the types, like date, it's nice though.
@RebolBot
date: now
print date
print type? date
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
23-Nov-2014/16:19:03+1:00
date!
 
ahh
>> print [now]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
23-Nov-2014/16:19:28+1:00
 
3:19 PM
>> print now + 100
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
3-Mar-2015/16:19:41+1:00
 
100 days?
 
Yes, that's the interpretation of adding integers to dates. But you can add times and such. It does date/time math out of the box.
 
ok
 
One thing I think is nice to keep in mind is just how much is in the box...
 
3:20 PM
>> print [now * 2]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-cannot-use.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: cannot use multiply on date! value
** Where: * print
** Near: * 2
 
Heh, I don't think that's meaningful
 
lol
 
...and to remember again what a small box it is: rebolsource.net
 
Ok, I got the win exe
 
3:21 PM
No dependencies, no apt-get install 50MB or what not. One tool.
 
but do I 'install' it?
 
Nope
No install
 
how does it work on windows?
 
Well, you run it from the console like anything else. Or create a shortcut. Etc.
 
so do I run it like: interpreter file.r
 
3:23 PM
It's like the olden days...I used to be quite the OCD person when it came to organizing files on the hard drive, everything had to be in its right directory...needed to have the recovery boot disks, etc. Ran the disk defragmenter. Control freak.
Yes, although we have deferred the .R extension to the R language.
(Though I think Rebol had it first, fact is, that belongs to R as far as the internet is concerned. And I like .reb better anyway.)
It's a fight neither worthwhile nor winnable, so .reb it is.
 
ok
 
Red is alpha, but I'll just mention it, also has the same deal: red-lang.org/p/download.html
 
ok
 
The Red REPL console is actually better! Which is funny. Handles multi-line input and non-English input better. Even though the runtime is way less mature.
 
Ok
and what was the function syntax again?
 
3:29 PM
There's just one big head-scratcher after another when meeting Rebol, and one is that FUNCTION is not a keyword :-) and in fact there are multiple function generators, and you can make your own.
But one of the function generators is indeed just named FUNCTION. It takes TWO parameters.
 
oh...
how?
this is weird :P
 
The first parameter is a block of "just data" :-) as I've said, which is treated as the "function specification dialect". The second is a block of "just data" which is the body of the function.
Quick tutorial:
@RebolBot
foo: function [
    {Hi I am a string, if I am the first element in the first parameter then I describe the function in help!}
    parameter1 [string! integer!] {I'm the description for parameter1, here constrained to be string or integer...}
    parameter2 {I'm an unconstrained parameter...}
] [
   ;-- now we're in the body!
   print parameter1
   print parameter2
]

help foo
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
USAGE:
    FOO parameter1 parameter2

DESCRIPTION:
    Hi I am a string, if I am the first element in the first parameter then I describe the function in help!
    FOO is a function value.

ARGUMENTS:
    parameter1 -- I'm the description for parameter1, here constrained to be string or integer... (string! integer!)
    parameter2 -- I'm an unconstrained parameter...
 
@M0dem If you are starting to "see" it then you see that the sort of XML-ish (or whatever your reference point) structure is part of the system. The code is the data, or the data is the code, or however you want to think of it. So it's easy to find ways to reflect it out.
 
ok
 
3:34 PM
Well, think about it this way.
 
you've been extremely kind and helpful to me :)
 
Well I spend time on Rebol and Red because I think they are cool, and I drew the icons and such, and I hope they take off. :-)
You can't have something take off if you're not willing to teach it!
2
 
:) yes
 
But that said, I didn't come up with the ideas, I'm just one of the people who thinks there are good ideas worth sharing.
(Though I have come up with some ideas, some of which have been accepted, others are...pending?)
Anyway, look at this...
 
thats cool
I should let you go now though
thanks for all the help and time you've invested in me :D
 
3:38 PM
@RebolBot
params: [ivalue [integer!] svalue [string!]]

foo: function params [
   print ivalue + 1
   print svalue
]

bar: function params [
   print ivalue - 1
   print reverse svalue
]

foo 10 "Hello"
bar 10 "Goodbye"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
11
Hello
9
eybdooG
 
@M0dem Well it's no problem, hope you find something worthy to think about or tell someone else about. I don't have much else to do right now. In any case, the example above might further cement you seeing that it really is different, as you said.
 
Ok, I will.
I'll tell my friends about it
@HostileFork I appreciate you greatly, goodbye for now. :)
 
@M0dem Happy to inform, take care.
 
 
7 hours later…
10:20 PM
Working on my JS Interface Dialect (JSID). At the very early stages. However, even at this early stage, I will show you a working sample of the dialect.
jsid [
	title "Test"
	testdiv: div "Div Text" value {testval} on click "dofunc();"
]
Which creates:
<html>
        <head>
                <title>Test</title>
        </head>

<body>

<div name="testdiv" value="testval" onclick="dofunc();">
        Div Text
</div>


</body>
</html>
 

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