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1:24 AM
@HostileFork Impressive!
 
 
2 hours later…
3:23 AM
@Adrian did you make any start on the flow based programming for Rebol?
 
 
10 hours later…
1:34 PM
For any me-as-graphic-designer fans, I made a little video about some nearly-decade-old band flyers:
 
 
2 hours later…
3:47 PM
@HostileFork That was quite interesting. What made you put it together?
@giuliolunati What Bible Greek files are you converting?
 
4:09 PM
@WiseGenius I am trying to reach what I call "hard drive zero", basically taking all files and projects and tying them up. I collected the flyers and was going to make a little video for friends about that time of life, but was encouraged to publish it in case other people who were around at that time might want to see it...so I threw in some context.
Rebol and Red graphic design are now at what I consider "hard drive zero" status, everything is published and I do not have any files that are not mirrored on GitHub or the Internet Archive.
 
4:28 PM
@HostileFork Interesting. I've often considered doing something similar, but I don't think I can.
 
Depending on how much you've done, it can take quite a while.
 
4:45 PM
@HappySpoon Over 10,000 unique downloads of the ODROID Magazine every month.
@HostileFork Watched it the other night on Youtube.
 
5:16 PM
@Respectech Was it interesting? :-)
My life has had lots of... different... stuff in it.
 
@HostileFork Yes, it was. Sounds like a cool place to hang out. Sorry that it didn't last.
 
Well, it did last 15 years.
 
@HostileFork I guess that's better than most. :-)
I enjoy documentaries. It was a very focused documentary and I learned a lot of great stuff about graphic design choices. Now if I could only remember and apply them.
 
Are you still running a hybrid tech support and cafe?
 
@HostileFork Yes. The cybercafé is waning as more and more people have mobile Internet access. However, we still have people coming in to print concert, airline and bus tickets, and do some other mobile business office type stuff like faxing, scanning, color printing and copying, etc.
However, it isn't like it used to be when we'd have all the computers filled and people waiting, plus all our tables and chairs filled with lunch patrons munching away on sandwiches, pizza and hot dogs and drinking top quality Italian espressos and 100% fruit smoothies.
 
5:27 PM
The Nova Express had very good dough for the bread of the pizza and sandwiches. Not why I hung out there, but it was a perk.
 
We do have one guy who plays MMORPGs on one of our gaming machines from about noon until 6pm EVERY day.
 
They wound up shutting down in part because they didn't have proper paperwork and clearance to be serving beer and wine; they didn't qualify to be a "bar" because you have to have (in LA) things like separate bathrooms for men and women...the previous inspector had just let it slide due to it being around for a while, but the new person who came in was "by the book"
 
Here's a picture of our café a few years ago at opening time (7am). It still looks pretty much the same, except the computers are newer.
Here's our showroom from about the same time.
Here's our showroom today.
 
@Respectech You have a raised floor but no cables under it? :-)
 
I designed the expanded metal flooring with the LED light bars below the floor. It's about 6 inches above the concrete slab. There are cables under it, you just can't see them very well.
 
5:38 PM
It's cool.
Just kidding because usually when you see that the reason it's there is functional
I like the idea of having lights under it, but maybe the need to keep the upper area functional and "normal" keeps the effect from being as accented as it might
The Nova Express had that problem; in that, it was all about atmosphere and as I mention in the video... it was so dark with mostly blacklight that there are almost no pictures that survived.
 
What do you think about the color scheme? I worked long and hard at picking those colors.
 
On a "things you can do right away" point, I'd strike the signs besides "service and repair"
You might move them to the exterior but once someone is inside, the size of the space does not necessitate them, and they clutter.
 
Yes, that's probably a good idea. I've gotten so used to seeing them that I don't see them anymore, if you know what I mean.
 
It's already very crowded
I don't think they serve a purpose, but the service & repair one does, and it seems "lit up" in the picture.
 
Yes, we have a lot of stuff in a small space.
All the sign lettering is done in chrome, so they light up when the light hits them in the right way.
 
5:44 PM
The aluminum siding thing they do in Chipotle, if you've noticed
 
@HostileFork After I did it (in 2006), I noticed a lot of other people started doing it as well.
 
Trendsetter :-)
 
@HostileFork But I haven't seen many other places with expanded metal floors.
:-)
 
A friend of mine has a chain of vitamin stores + health food, happens to be a cafe also:
 
@HostileFork That's a nice look.
 
5:48 PM
They have a little bit of an issue in terms of if you turn around from the bar, it's just shelves and shelves of inventory of vitamins, supplements, big jars of protein powder...
So kind of similar to your issue, of being both store and bar/cafe
 
Our café floor is black plasti-dip. I also hadn't seen any other places using plasti-dip for floor paint before either.
But I think I'd like to go for one of the modern tiles or laminates that look like brushed metal.
 
You asked about colors, I guess the thing I think is that often one wants to sort of set up a "motif". It's often helpful to tack your motif onto the most entrenched thing you can't change...let's say, like your metal floors for instance
 
Since the café picture was taken, I've covered the computer desks against the wall with aluminum plate, so they look a lot more modern.
 
I'd be carrying one of the floor plates around in the car as I shopped for paint or furniture or what-not
 
Against the other wall, we have some freestanding glass/aluminum computer desks, so it works together quite well.
The floor is simply black, so most colors work well with it.
The expanded metal is also plasti-dipped.
 
5:56 PM
My reflex is to say that it's a little too "hollow"... that negative space is such that you are seeing details that shouldn't concern you...I'm walking up the ramp and going to the service and repair, why am I looking at table legs? (for instance)
 
This is what the desk looks like now with the aluminum on it. We've replaced the chairs with better ones since this picture has been taken.
@HostileFork Any ideas?
(On how to change it)
Sorry for the blurriness -- this shows one of the glass/aluminum desks.
 
Well, that detail I'd just get a sheet of whatever and make the area underneath the railing opaque. Hopefully a nice material of some kind, within whatever budget.
But like what I said about taking out the signs, the idea being to visually cohere and focus attention. The plant is another example of "hey that's kind of random". And it's in the way, cut in half by the railing, etc.
It's like in my video where I talk about how we really can look at each thing and go "hm... does this have a purpose?"
 
@HostileFork Well, there are quite a few plants in the building. You can't see them in the café picture, but there are four hanging plants in there (high ceiling), and there are a couple in the showroom as well.
The plants were to take some of the edge off the harshness of the metal.
BTW, the café software is written in Rebol. The screens change color imperceptibly 10 times a second and the logo moves around randomly as well. It's interesting how randomly changing screen colors can look so well side by side even though they aren't synchronizing with each other.
When the screen is clicked, the software communicates with a Rebol café server that keeps track of the time and cost for each computer, and a little window in the bottom left corner of the desktop shows the user how much their session is so far and gives them a logout button.
 
 
3 hours later…
9:16 PM
Hm. Has anyone ever done a Csound dialect port, or similar?
@SomeKittensUx2666 You have 4 stars on your question regarding runnable...what do we have to do to get you to put us on?
 
Woah, sweet.
Have you ever worked with Docker?
 
No, but someone was "making Docker icons" for Rebol/Red, I don't know what that means exactly.
 
Docker is like a VM, but better.
 
Jul 22 at 22:28, by johnk
FYI @hamdouni has created a docker image for cheyenne https://github.com/hamdouni/docker-cheyenne
 
in that it shares resources with the host OS
 
9:23 PM
Oh, hm, Cheyenne...the Rebol web server
Oh, "image" means VM image
Sorry I didn't look at it before.
 
so you can spin up a million containers with very little overhead
 
I read that as "icon" ... didn't click through
 
I'm pinging around to figure out how to get you guys up there
 
Well we don't have a 64-bit Red ATM.
That's really the only caveat I can think of, there's a 64-bit Rebol though
@SomeKittensUx2666 If you didn't observe my codegolf update, it went crazypants :-) codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/36114/57
 
Docker is a cocker ... reinventing ideas
 
9:28 PM
@pekr If an idea gets reinvented enough times, that might be a metric that it's a good one.
 
Here's what we need to bring Red/REBOL to http://runnable.com :
0) Logo of some sort
1) Dockerfile for each.
 
What I continue to like about the code golf is that it's a metric space in which we really can play to win. I wish more of you guys would give it a shot. Rebmu really can beat the crap out of most of these languages and it's not even contrived if you accept a couple of baseline ideas.
@SomeKittensUx2666 Does docker do 32 bit?
 
I don't know
 
What are the metrics for the icon?
The icons are in a circle. Hmmm... that works better for Red than Rebol
How/when do you update the images? Red is changing somewhat rapidly. When do you refresh?
 
Our designer does all that
 
9:33 PM
I meant the VM images (docker)
 
Really Rebol and Red are about the simplest things, they're just one executable
 
I'm not sure.
Red doesn't have an auto-update?
 
It should, but at the moment no
 
Vector of logo is good
 
9:37 PM
@SomeKittensUx2666 Github won't serve content-types, but it's a small svg for Red: raw.githubusercontent.com/red/branding/master/flat-icon/…
Which is this:
 
Hmmm?
@RebolBot delete
Oh, wait
I didn't load it :-)
>> parse to-string read runnable.com [thru <title> copy title to </title> (print title)]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Runnable - Discover Everything through Code
== false
 
@SomeKittensUx2666 I tinkered a bit with runnable to answer a C++ question just to try it out... I was using my chromebook so didn't have a C++ env available.
 
How'd it go?
 
9:42 PM
What I noticed that bugged me was that as my sample got longer, the inner scroll bar on the ACE editor or whatever was growing down and I really wanted the scroll bar on the window to control the IDE scroll bar
The rest worked okay
Although the console access was spotty, sometimes just perpetually loading.
If it's not too much effort I don't see any reason why we wouldn't want to be on there.
 
Can't promise tomorrow, the team's in a pretty intense sprint
 
Kaj's "TryRebol" (now defaulting to evaluating in Red) is okay but it's not something that has any kind of persistence model
Basically, this is what we have: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
Because he's brave enough to run a computer that does arbitrary evaluations. If you have said bravery because of your sandboxing or whatever, then if you can do better... hey, great
When I set up a little demo of an online tutorial someone infinite looped it and I got a phone call from the virtualhost like "um, your machine is hung."
 
@HostileFork Sandboxing is awesome
That's one of our big assets
 
I didn't publish the URL, but even in a limited group of people, one guy just had to know what happened if you infinite looped it. :-)
We all know what some curiosity does to some kittens.
 
@HostileFork check your email
 
9:51 PM
@SomeKittensUx2666 Thanks; if you name a good time I'll follow up. You know more than I do what a "good time" is. There's no rush
 
@HostileFork The other guy isn't a dev, so he's got more time for stuff like this
 
@ShixinZeng In your work, have you had need or interest in COMBINE? I'm hoping to make that one of the things "in the box" for Red and Rebol. Every time I replace an old REJOIN with it I feel a little bit of "ah yes, that's much better"
@SomeKittensUx2666 Well I'm not going to bother him on a Friday night either way :-)
 
It's 3PM here
You're in Florida, right?
 
Yup
I'm off work. :-P
 
How is it there?
 
9:56 PM
It's been raining quite a bit, interestingly, considering the people in California are telling me how dry it is. Like a flood here. Grayness and mugginess and mosquitos and getting drenched.
I don't remember if your alias is due to liking cats or not, but most of the time I just hang out with the cat.
She does not care for thunder/rain/etc.
 
10:15 PM
@HostileFork I do like cats, but that is not relevant to the name
'SomeKittens' came from my gaming days: You were killed by SomeKittens
 
@SomeKittensUx2666 Who is the "onekitten" (graham wanted to be "happy spoon" so I drew him a spoon)
 
Quantas 94 Heavy
he changed it back
 
I do like my fork, I'm trying to decide what to do with that whole thing.
I kind of want to do a dread-pirate-roberts thing (as per Princess Bride) and find someone to take it over.
 
Take over HostileFork, the user?
 
Well it was a website before it was anything here.
I'm not too concerned about the stackoverflow ID, which is just a number, you change your name at any time.
The Domain Name System is a little more insidious.
 
10:23 PM
hostilefork.com
 
@SomeKittensUx2666 Powered by Rebol, no less. :-)
 
Nice.
Post-work life must be nice
 
@SomeKittensUx2666 Well, being old means one starts to accrue bills for replacing one's hips and you have to pay for all that old-person ointment. I actually should probably be thinking about finding work.
 
What are your thoughts on that? I know you're not going to Apple.
 
Well, my skill set, unfortunately, pegs the highest-valued work in high-frequency trading.
 
10:28 PM
eww.
 
They want people to code algorithms that they can put in firmware tied direct to "venues" to execute trades, you have to mix up your estimation skills with the deals that "they" give you about how much they charge per trade and other elements...
So you're not even just trying to optimize your market algorithms; you have to secondarily optimize on the deals. It's a bit like clipping coupons and going shopping and you have to maximize an outcome based on a lot of variables.
 
Have you thought about being a developer evangelist?
 
I am one!
 
well, getting paid to be one
 
@SomeKittensUx2666 I like drawing, if you missed above: retrospective on flyers...
 
10:32 PM
nice
 
I'm not sure if military-industrial complex programming is what I want to do anymore.
 
Define "military-industrial complex" programming
 
I ran a C++ group for a while in Austin, and I'd talk to the people from companies I'd bring in to recruit, and they'd say "so... um... can we interest you?"
And I'd say "Er... no, I'm... busy with my own ideas."
The military–industrial complex, or military–industrial–congressional complex, comprises the policy and monetary relationships which exist between legislators, national armed forces, and the arms industry that supports them. These relationships include political contributions, political approval for military spending, lobbying to support bureaucracies, and oversight of the industry. It is a type of iron triangle. The term is most often used in reference to the system behind the military of the United States, where it gained popularity after its use in the farewell address of President Dwight D...
 
ie not code for the government or related contractors?
 
Often, it tends to tie in together.
I used to work for the Defense Mapping Agency and MITRE
 
10:36 PM
But things like GitHub would be ok?
 
I like GitHub, but I think, they are maybe a bit young cultured for me.
I don't think we would see eye to eye about things in a managerial sense.
 
hmm, so more gr[e|a]y hair.
@HostileFork How so?
As in GH specifically, or the SV mythos?
 
Well, it is hard to explain. I don't know. I mean, if you go to Google it starts looking a bit like a playground... I saw one of their cafeterias and they had gotten plastic colorful chairs, like the colors from the logo...and people are sitting and eating the free food and I do enjoy much of the outcome of their work, but I still saw it all as being an echo of childhood.
And here on Stackoverflow, I think there are a lot more independent thinkers... like "wait, why should I work for YOU... why shouldn't everyone work for THEMSELVES" and a more independent thought.
"Let every man own his own hands."
I just want to keep everything on the level. GitHub itself is not open source, for instance.
I cannot fix a bug in github or review it, as an outsider.
 
So you'd want a company that's largely FOSS, has varied age levels and a more serious workspace
 
If I were to work in software, yes, but I am not only a programmer. I've been to film school, I have a degree in electrical engineering, I am not bad at most things I try. So it's not that constrained.
I think that I myself have some pretty darn interesting ideas.
I'm not socially acclimated to tolerate business handshaking deal-making environments, so I don't deal in incubators and what not. I find myself feeling unhappy. Perhaps I'd need a partner who would take care of all that.
To other people, they love it.
 
10:44 PM
'deal in incubators' like YC/TechStars/500/etc?
 
Yeah, I think I might have talked about Michael Hartl's experience and he did YCombinator... and... he is more business savvy than me by a huge margin.
He has popularized the idea of turning pi into 6.28... much better than me and he didn't come up with it independently. He read a paper and agreed with it, and had a marketing concept of TAU DAY and has made it this big thing.
I came up with the idea myself in college (now no longer the earliest reference we have on it, someone else was pre-published before me which I myself was before the paper Michael read)
But I never came up with "june 28th" as a day to celebrate the idea that pi is wrong, and it has turned out to be a powerful recurring way to raise the debate
But it's just an example of how I am maybe not so savvy to deal in the space of selling ideas, I might be better at having them.
 
There are a lot of powerful combinations in that area
Allen/Gates, Wozniak/Jobs, Page/Brin, etc, etc
 
Right, well even in dungeons and dragons if you are to deal with an arbitrary situation your team should have balance of some kind.
For me, the thing I can't stand is being fake, I am bad at not saying what's on my mind.
And I just kind of want to point to the right answer and go "HEY. THAT!" I'm not paid to say it, and I won't accept any payment that would prevent me from saying "HEY. THAT!"
Some things are beyond the pale to me. Adult children suing over lines of code that even judges mock
Oracle vs Google comes to mind. I swear, the idea that these are actual adults of the species blows my mind for whatever range function it was. Their fight destroys value, their egos and their territories just pillars of salt and sand.
So far, I like that Google hasn't gone on the offensive in anything unreasonable... that I know of.
 
11:03 PM
Yeah, I can sympathize with that.
I'm a bit younger, so I can't be as picky.
though I'm thoroughly satisfied with my job right now. No compromises, no egos, just make great code.
 
@SomeKittensUx2666 When did you start?
 
Little over a month ago.
 
Thorough satisfaction is good praise. Sounds good.
 
There have been serious issues at every other place I've worked (boss is bipolar, technical founder is both totally incompetent and in denial, etc) so this is fantastic.
 
For me, it's a bit like Cyphre talking about the Matrix...
Working and getting things done and being part of a group and just... just doing is fun. It's like his "steak that's thick and juicy". You like it, because you're only focusing on that part. The brain rewards you for doing a good job, and it rewards you when you are externally rewarded with money/praise/etc.
I now have this other layer on top of work which is the imposed "does it create real value, or is it a bunch of gaming of a make-work system"
So some of my spare cycles are on Rebol and Red here because I think it's fighting that make-work.
I am at risk for creating false justifications for the value of my time invested. :-/
 
11:14 PM
That's a huge reason I work in startups
I can see my work create real value very quickly
there's no extensive forms/meetings/justifications/etc
 
Well you can measure your success by attention, in some sense.
 
I write code, it's reviewed, it's live
@HostileFork I don't. Attention is FAR too easy to game.
 
@SomeKittensUx2666 While you may be only a little younger by your yardstick, things really have changed
 
Younger by my yardstick?
by my yardstick, I'm very young.
 
17 mins ago, by SomeKittens Ux2666
I'm a bit younger, so I can't be as picky.
 
11:21 PM
ah - young in terms of career success
 
I still get carded. In fact, I was out with a girl who was younger than me and she was carded but I wasn't.
 
At your pace (starting at 7), I'm 13.
 
Which if there are any bartenders reading: don't do that, it's offensive.
It's nice that you and @rlemon and some of the Javascript crew are around here.
 
I'm not actually here - I'm a spoon in a fork filled world.
 
We are trying to speak to another generation, and I think there is something here that is kind of mind blowing.
I have of course biases toward the real "mathematical graph universe where code is not text files"... I assume @rlemon and @somekittens know about that other lifetime...
But that makes the question of what might we accomplish if people insist that computer programs are typed in text files, Rebol and Red are very much tailored to accepting constraints, it reminds me of code golf.
 
11:25 PM
@HostileFork I teach a course at RocketU and it's easily the most fulfilling thing I do
 
i tell people on so their js is bad.
but then I help them make it better
so I suppose that is the same
 
@rlemon Did you see my little solve to this? codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/36114/57
Tell me that's not cool. Come on, that's cool.
@SomeKittensUx2666 How'd you hook up with that?
My advisor in college tried to talk me out of taking the job offer at Microsoft.
He wanted me to teach, and said I'd pay nothing and get fast tracked for masters-PhD.
Perhaps I should have listened.
 
@HostileFork Company I used to work for rented space from Rocket Space, I went out drinking with a couple of the RS guys, they learned I had been a mentor in college, then I got hired.
 
I like the idea of teaching by video... I also went to film school... I kind of want to do a teaching puppet show
I have an idea about a drunk demoralized sheep who knows everything, and he's pestered into making videos. Got the idea from a sheep puppet I saw.
 
@HostileFork I lecture in person, but they're expanding distance learning
 
11:30 PM
Sort of like "You suck at photoshop" but the sheep isn't as antagonistic toward the audience, just toward himself.
@SomeKittensUx2666 Teaching is fun, I get my fix through these little StackOverflow answers but that doesn't really scale...so I wonder if I should do something bigger.
I'm also kind of torn between the selfish desire to learn more vs. teaching people
 
The best way to learn something is to teach it.
I thought that was another silly cat poster until I had my first lecture
 
Do you think you can ask me a question you can answer that I can't? :-) Teach me something.
 
hm, that's quite the challenge.
 
We were talking about jobs earlier and questions, I'd meet up with the people who were going to pitch the group their jobs what their questions were...before the group came.
 
especially if we don't allow esoteric topics, like Redemption
 
11:35 PM
And I'd ask their questions.
People have different ideas of what it means to "know" vs. "not know"
 
Interview questions?
 
Sure, do you have a favorite?
 
Code-wise? Not so much
I ask what their favorite project was
 
When I was a freshman in college, I was asked about playing a 16-bit audio file on a PC speaker, and how I might do that.
I responded by saying "well, hm, if your speaker is a physical device getting only ON and OFF then what you think of as volume comes from its oscillations and so if you sent it 11111111 that would be full volume and 10101010 would be half volume... if you believe that then you could emulate the 1 0 speaker as something with more values"
So I modeled it as a car driving along a zero-filled road and dropping 1 bits based on a velocity coming from the magnitudes in the input
 
11:42 PM
@SomeKittensUx2666 Okay, here's a question. Let's say you have an image byte ordered RGBRGBRGB... and I want you to in-place modify it so that you get a pointer to a contiguous color plane. Rearrange it to RRRGGGBBB for any length and then put it back afterward. Hard or easy?
I was deliberate in asking that question initially of "here's your data, give me an index, then rearrange to give me a continuous sequence, and put it back" because there is a very easy solution. Almost no one went for the easy solution.
I didn't say that the color that wasn't picked had to be sequential, you could scramble it as you wished, as long as it was reversible.
@giuliolunati picked up on that
But I'd then change it, so that I said "okay but what if I said I wanted all three color planes in order, and unscrambled to the initial configuration"
 
color that wasn't picked?
My technical questions tend to be more along the lines of "What's CORS, where is it used and how do you fix a CORS error?"
 
@SomeKittensUx2666 Someone from oracle asked me "What's a gooey?"
Oh, wait, she was from PeopleSoft, I guess Oracle bought them? Historical.
And I went rather rapidly into criticism of the question.
 
Heh, I've pulled that. You need to show me you've got a rigorous interview process - I don't want to work with mornons
 
Oh, she was a mornon for sure.
 
...that was a beautiful typo. It stays.
 
11:50 PM
So I had an hour long interview when I was a young 20 year old with a billionare guy.
Who is a character in his own right.
 
do we get the name?
 
None other than the Mister Charles Simonyi
And he's a good sport, and a funny person, and a visionary.
 
And he didn't ask me a single coding question.
We just sat around debating things like whether it could have been pre-anticipated that filenames could be longer than 8.3, and I said anyone in their right mind would have known to build in the API a planning for the future...
...and he said "well, now... now you are talking about going back in time, and changing the past to affect the present. They tried that on Star Trek already and it never works."
Which is about how our conversations went, in general. I worked for him for five years.
 
that's amazing
 
11:55 PM
We're just people, I think that is what you should absorb from it.
It's not any more amazing than any other story.
 
I shook Sergey Brin's hand once.
 
I think it's kind of funny.
 

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