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1:50 AM
@onetom Just tried an experiement and FreeDNS works well. twitter.rebol.info now redirects to the github page I set up
 
in the meantime i was reading the secret sharing wikipedia page and it bugs me more and more how can it work in practice. what i dont understand yet is how can the initial key distribution happens.
 
 
1 hour later…
2:58 AM
@Adrian Thank you so much for the help.
 
np, glad to do it
 
Made a git commit to not lose my settings ;)
 
 
2 hours later…
5:15 AM
@onetom is there any simple way of getting a listing of all subdomains on rebol.info (from freedns)? In the domain registry page it lists rebol.info as having "16 hosts in use". It would be nice to have this list to display on rebol.info
 
 
8 hours later…
1:05 PM
@onetom All security protocols have the initial key distribution question, and always will...
 
1:22 PM
In news that I don't consider looking especially promising, they're remaking RoboCop, and the trailer is out.
"DED||alvUcomWTHme" (from RebmuCop, 2014)
In more Rebol-relevant video news, I kind of wanted to slap Larry Wall for "Why Perl is like a human language"
@onetom I actually had another problem I was trying to solve that required secret sharing, and I characterized the solution before I found out people had already done it; although it's relatively recent. It was pretty much as I thought; you can cut things up into M shares and then require N of M to get the data back; but each share you have access to weakens the cryptography (as per diagram on Wikipedia)
 
1:53 PM
@HostileFork I don't think I even want to watch that video
 
@kealist You might try and slap him, but forget you're actually watching a time shifted video, thus damaging your monitor and doing no damage to Larry Wall.
 
@HostileFork that's why shamir's algo is good, because it doesnt suffer from the weakening effect
 
@onetom Hm? I thought they all did, just to a lesser effect than naive approach. I'm no crypto expert, though.
 
When I was studying CS in college, I had one absolutely terrible professor. He had worked for the NSA doing cryptography, and it was the only thing he knew. The "Memory Management, Data Reproductions, Formal Methods" course final project I had with him was to implement some cryptography algorithm, which was entirely irrelevant to the content of the course
I had three other courses with him that were almost the same.
 
2:26 PM
@kealist I never took any courses in cryptography but I read the Bruce Schneier book. I'd consider that required reading for pretty much everyone.
"Bruce Schneier once decrypted a box of AlphaBits." http://www.schneierfacts.com/facts/top
 
@HostileFork I will check that out. Here was that professor's Crypto book (notice his email address) Introduction to Cryptography in Java Applets.
haha
He's got his Chuck Norris-eque jokes going on
"Most people use passwords. Some people use passphrases. Bruce Schneier uses an epic passpoem, detailing the life and works of seven mythical Norse heroes. " schneierfacts.com/facts/27
 
"If you do not have a security clearance, and if you have not received a National Security Letter, you are not bound by a federal confidentially requirements or a gag order. If you have been contacted by the NSA to subvert a product or protocol, you need to come forward with your story. Your employer obligations don't cover illegal or unethical activity. If you work with classified data and are truly brave, expose what you know."
 
3:23 PM
While working through 99 Haskell Problems, I do think we should make the parse exercises a 99 Parse Problems
"I got 99 problems and parse ain't one. If you're having parse problems, I feel bad for you son..."
 
@kealist challenges.rebol.net
 
@HostileFork yes
 
So when parse hits a word it does not know, it looks and sees what is stored, and uses that as if it were there.
 
99.rebol.net
 
@RebolBot
x: 2
parse "aa" [x skip]
 
3:33 PM
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> x: 2 parse "aa" [x skip]
== true
 
Works for rules, whatever. And obviously, code in parens will affect this value during the parse, so the evaluation is redone.
@RebolBot
x: 1
parse "aaa" [x skip (x: 2) x skip]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> x: 1 parse "aaa" [x skip (x: 2) x skip]
== true
 
My proposal is that we expand this to function evaluations. Currently unsupported.
@RebolBot
x: func [] [2]
parse "aa" [x skip]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-parse-rule.html
>> x: func [] [2] parse "aa" [x skip]
*** ERROR
** Script error: PARSE - invalid rule or usage of rule: x
** Where: parse
** Near: parse "aa" [x skip]
 
Further, I want it to work with args; e.g. it will use DO/NEXT when a function is encountered, like VID does
@RebolBot
x: func [val] [val + 1]
parse "aa" [x 1 skip]
 
3:37 PM
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-parse-rule.html
>> x: func [val] [val + 1] parse "aa" [x 1 skip]
*** ERROR
** Script error: PARSE - invalid rule or usage of rule: x
** Where: parse
** Near: parse "aa" [x 1 skip]
 
That would return true. So my question is, does anyone see a reason not to do this?
I seemed to have convinced Carl it had reasonable applications. @DocKimbel, opinions?
 
@HostileFork what would be a useful function to write? probably a closure would be more useful, so it can remember state. (your 1st example was a closure actually, just over the global context, i think)
 
@onetom I have mentioned before that I want whitespace, letter, digit, symbol functions out of the box, with refinements. e.g. digit/hex or letter/latin/upper. When I watch that Larry Wall thing and get mad it reminds me how Rebol parse is totally compromised by the lack of these standards.
Out of the box, immediate, we offer these charsets.
Go to the unicode docs, use their terminology, nail it.
 
@HostileFork indeed functions could provide this feature just as you described. i was just asking to see if there are other means achieving the same results u would do with functions
 
3:52 PM
@onetom Yes but not as elegantly, in that you would always need a refinement... such as picking things out of an object... I just think the feature is generally pretty cool and it would be nice. Remember Lego alligators. :-) It's an aesthetic judgment.
if find digit/hex/upper ch [print "Your character is an uppercase hexadecimal digit."]
 
other way around
 
if find digit ch [print "Your digit is from 0 to 9, the natural default."]
@onetom What other way around?
 
find digit ch
or parse ch digit
 
@onetom Oops, well, fixed. Tx.
Anyway, my point is that we don't have an existing Rebol method for getting the behavior but I think the function call from parse is a finesse.
 
i see this usage of find often and i don't think it reads naturally. something like
if includes? digits ch ["it's a digit"]
reads better to me
 
3:56 PM
Looks a bit better. This is your found? alternative; to get a boolean result from an implicit find?
 
4:11 PM
@onetom So were you going to do the death-to-found? pull request?
If you do, perhaps includes? would be a good replacement.
Also, you have raised a naming question. Is "digit" 0-9? Or is that "digits", being a set? includes? digit ch reads a bit odd, find digit ch similarly weird, parse "123" [digit digit digit] is clearly better than parse "123" [digits digits digits].
is-a? digit ch is sort of what you want in testing set membership, but Rebol's generality makes such things gnarly, the way found? was. I think the lack of pluralization is a small price to pay.
 
 
1 hour later…
5:26 PM
@HostileFork @onetom Please create a CC ticket to discuss the FOUND? removal first (or as well).
 
5:42 PM
posted on September 06, 2013 by onetom

[Wish] As per discussed on SO chat it's not useful because FIND works well with logical operations anyway. In case of PICK, just use TO LOGIC! @DocKimbel agreed too. It doesn't read well anyway

posted on September 06, 2013 by Ladislav

[Comment] This looks like a mistake to me: - FIND does not work well with logical operations like AND, OR, XOR at all. - TO LOGIC! works differently than FOUND? (FOUND? 0 yields TRUE, while TO LOGIC! 0 yields FALSE).

 
6:06 PM
posted on September 06, 2013 by onetom

[Comment] >> all [find "asd" "Asd" true] == true >> to logic! all [true find "asd" "Asd"] == true >> true and to logic! find "asd" "Asd" == true I don't know what kind of practical expression would lead to using FOUND? on an INTEGER!. Can you help us and give a non-contrived example, please? Nobody could give any reasonable example on SO chat... :( Probably we need a better name for this NOT

 
6:27 PM
posted on September 06, 2013 by onetom

[Comment] Or the other option is to properly reason for the need for this function in the documentation, in such a detail that anyone can understand it. The example in the docs http://www.rebol.com/r3/docs/functions/found-q.html works just as well without FOUND? as with it: >> if found? find luke@rebol.com ".com" [print "found it"] found it >> if find luke@rebol.com ".com" [print "found it"]

posted on September 06, 2013 by abolka

[Comment] Another important difference: `FOUND? false` yields TRUE, whereas `TO-LOGIC false` obviously yields FALSE.

 
6:51 PM
posted on September 06, 2013 by fork

[Comment] I'll echo @onetom's call for a case where this really matters. And if it matters so much, then isn't it better to write explicit code at the callsite? Can anyone honestly say FOUND? is the answer to the issue? FOUND? is a dud, semantically. If there needs to be a SOMETHING? for the NOT NONE? macro case then... well, okay. But does it come up often enough? Think of the children.

 
7:13 PM
posted on September 06, 2013 by onetom

[Comment] Stating that NOT NONE? FALSE is false is obvious and doesn't justify having a shortcut function for NOT NONE?, neither does it explain why is it called FOUND?. I never wrote FOUND? (this OR that). This function name suggests one should use it in conjunction with FIND, but in that case it doesn't seem to be needed. As the documentation say, the only problem is PICK, like >> PICK [yes

 
7:45 PM
@onetom "since we don't have the ternary operator." -- We have both EITHER and PICK + logic!. What do you miss :) ?
 
@HostileFork You do not need functions support in parse to achieve that, do you? Prebuilt nested block tables should work?
 
@earl the if functionality as an operator ;) but i don't really miss it
@DocKimbel that was my first idea too, but then how would u combine the various subcases and how would u represent the toplevel case?
 
@onetom How would that "operator" be different to EITHER? Just syntactically "infix"?
 
@earl and no brackets, i would think, but obviously that's very incompatible w rebol :)
 
posted on September 06, 2013 by abolka

[Comment] "Stating that NOT NONE? FALSE is false is obvious" First and foremost, it's incorrect. "NOT NONE? FALSE" is TRUE. "This function name suggests one should use it in conjunction with FIND" To me, the function name suggests that it is useful in conjunction with results related to trying to find something, in an abstract sense. FIND is not the only such function. SELECT, PICK, and map!

 
7:59 PM
@onetom If the tables size is not too big, having redundant data could be acceptable for the sake of performance.
 
8:10 PM
im not sure what do u mean. taking forks actual example:
digit: map-each d [0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ] [to char! d]
digit/hex: ???
alpha: ???
so i can say
alpha/upper
alpha/lower
alpha/greek/lower or alpha/lower/greek ?
 
First, you definitely want: digit: charset [#"0" - #"9"]
 
i can imagine a map though, like:
charsets: #[map! [
digit [#"0" #"1" ...]
digit/hex [#"0" #"1" ... #"A" ...]
]]
but then parse should implicitly use this array for lookup
 
Second, why not just use set intersection for those?
 
@earl zero to zero? :) but im not sure u want charset anymore
think in unicode
 
@onetom Hmm, system/locale/charsets or system/options/charsets ?
 
8:16 PM
@earl example?
 
@onetom intersect alpha greek
@onetom I do, and you want charsets. Unless you prefer your parse rules unnecessarily slow?
 
@earl which means u are calling for function support within parse
 
@onetom Huh?
 
@earl would intersect be evaluated within parse?
 
@onetom No.
Just with the plain word lookup mechanisms we already have.
 
8:19 PM
@earl which is exactly the topic we are talking about. forks said if we would support functions too, then we could have such constructs as alpha/upper
@earl alpha greek is a bad example. what is alpha on it's own then?
 
@onetom Your example, not mine :)
Note that I'm not opposed to (niladic) function support in parse. Still thinking about functions with arguments.
 
@earl my example was alpha/lower/greek which is not an intersection, neither a subset
 
@onetom What would it give you? The lowercase, greek alphabet?
 
posted on September 06, 2013 by onetom

[Comment] Sure, I meant TRUE, it was not the point, but the lack of realistic examples. Regarding SELECTs: $ grep -ri found? . | egrep 'select' | wc -l 11 BUT only *2* of those are real SELECT cases. Please give real examples for typical SELECT and map! cases, so we can decide this matter and either drop FOUND? or adjust the documentation.

 
@earl why, do you have any other possible interpretation for it in mind?
 
8:22 PM
@onetom Not my invention, I simply don't know.
 
@earl despite of that u guessed it, since it's pretty intuitive, i think. but it's not my invention either :)
we are playing idea-ping-pong here! :)
 
Sounds a bit like refinement hell to me.
Could also reasonably mean the union of lowercase Latin & Greek alphabets.
Could also lead me to believe, that ALPHA alone generates a set of all characters of all known alphabets.
That certainly strikes me as an advantage of being more explicit with set operations. The intent is made more apparent.
 
i would think alpha/latin is the default. there are not so many cases probably... but let's spark/challenge brian's mind a bit
i would be fine with a handful of predefined practical rules for plan ascii case and a little locale support for the alpha case. just names with dashes, although pathes are more sexier
 
8:40 PM
I like letter better than alpha. I think aligning with Unicode standard categories is the answer and not restricting to Latin by default is the best idea. If you only want Latin say letter/latin
Inside the interpreter we can standardize all character sets for Unicode in a "native" way, puffing them up only in derivatives
I'd say digit is the same. While hexadecimal may be a stretch considering A to F being used as letters, hence the need to ask for explicitly, any Unicode characters...even those from esoteric languages which represent digits...should qualify by default.
Not turning this into a performance hit is an engineering problem. But as seen by the strong international interest in Rebol ... Biasing to English conventions is not a growth position
 
Unicode (UTN #36) top-level character categories (with counts):
     65 Control
    556 Diacritic
    393 Format
   1071 Hieroglyph
    123 Ideogram
   1396 Ideograph
   7885 Letter
     45 Logograph
    205 Mark
    881 Number
    658 Punctuation
    879 Sign
   3780 Syllable
   6418 Symbol
     36 Virama
      1 Vowel
     12 Word
 
@earl hmm. Number not digit? I guess some languages do use grayish systems ( one two many all, for instance). I'm okay with number/decimal I suppose
The way I see it, should you ever hit the edge cases, and get some strange behavior because the Urdu for "many" was a number when you only intended 0 to 9...
Is that just makes Rebol look awesome.
And your fix is number/decimal and you do a fist bump.
And why did your input have Urdu for many anyway. Odds are you're screwing up or being hacked. Sanitize your input.
But what is the one vowel? :-/
 
9:03 PM
@HostileFork A866 Lo Vowel PHAGS-PA LETTER EE
Looks like a misclassification (should probably be Letter / Vowel / ...).
 
Yup. Letter/vowel is good although what would letter/vowel/consonant exclude? Nothing?
 
@HostileFork what was that sysadmin video u showed us at coginov? w the desktop icons in a dick form?
 
@earl thats the one, thx :)
 
@HostileFork Here's the second-level letter subcategories:
   2292 Consonant
      4 Cryptogrammic
     12 Digraph
      2 Filler
      1 Fragment
     10 Head mark
    390 Historic
    470 Ligature
    220 Modifier
    196 Phonetic
     67 Tone
     17 Variant
   1080 Vowel
 
 
2 hours later…
11:20 PM
posted on September 06, 2013 by Ladislav

[Comment] I remember having used FOUND? with ANY or ALL like this: found? any [...] or found? all [...] however, I am not sure what exactly was the reason why I needed a logic! value. Most probably it was the fact that Rebol does not have conditional operators except for NOT, which happens to be conditional operator, in fact.

 

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