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12:21 AM
posted on April 28, 2017 by Andrew

I couldn't figure out how to remove the last character of a string, so my father wrote this cool function. trim-last: func ['Removes last value' thing [string! block!] {Block or String to remove last value}][     thing: tail thing     thing: back thing     remove thing     thing: head thing ]

 
 
2 hours later…
2:46 AM
append %foo.txt "some content" is an interesting idea. We can always manipulate filenames using rejoin and variations.
So, would append always work on the end of the file, and insert anywhere there's a pointer somewhere to inside the file?
Otherwise you're going to have two words with the same functionality which doesn't see economical
>> clear find f: copy %foo.reb %reb f
== %foo.
 
@GrahamChiu I noted above that at %file.txt location should probably not open the file and make a PORT!, rather it would make a FILE! value that had that textual name but the seek position at that location. If too many operations actually did an open, it would be hard to claim benefit from the automatic open/close all handled behind the scenes, e.g. you would leak a handle from copy/part (at %foo.txt 128) 256
 
So, would you also envisage clear setting file contents to null?
 
I envision what this does being just a shorthand for an open to make a port, the operation, and then an implicit close.
 
We already leak handles from read rebol.com which is supposed to be handled by GC
 
Shouldn't. In any case, I see append %foo.txt "xyz" just being a shorthand for port: open/with %foo.txt [once: true] | data: append port "xyz" | close port | data
Hence if you ask "what would clear do" or "what would join do" the answer would basically be, follow that formula. x: 10 | join %foo.txt ["Hello" space x space "World"] would act as append %foo.txt "Hello 10 World", because that is the semantics of JOIN
But, making filenames out of other filenames could be covered other ways; as we've noted you usually don't want raw series operations anyway, you want some smarts with slashes and path composition.
 
2:58 AM
I don't know the semantics of join since it's now undocumented!
 
JOIN is named out of the way after mezzanine loads, to avoid confusion, along with things like unset? or value?
ADJOIN is the current "REPEND" synonym which would become JOIN someday
JOIN-OF is the non-mutating form, which used to be JOIN.
I'm frustrated by the mechanical mire that is the "locals/args survival" aspect of closures. e.g. wanting to be able to write foo: func [x] [do-stuff-to x | return [x]] such that people can get do y: foo 10 | get y/1.
The most prevalent aspect of this is in USE. use [x] [x: 10 | y: 'x] print get y is expected to work today, and print 10
I feel like we should probably bend this around, so that if you want closure stuff, you do USE to get it in your function...instead of implementing USE in terms of closures.
But I have the curse of knowing too much... :-/ There's an efficiency angle where a function's frame offers an opportunity for binding, and even what I've called "hybrid frames"...e.g. one that has some stack variables and some non-stack ones. So you're saving the creation of that extra object, and avoiding a bind phase on each call, in favor of a binding phase at function creation time.
 
3:40 AM
current auction for rebol.org is $69
Maybe Carl wants to see what's it's worth before renewing?
 
@GrahamChiu There is a 35-day grace period, so the auctions don't have meaning until that is over.
 
@HostileFork just a scam
 
In any case, $69 is more than the renewal I'm sure. (even with Network Solutions pricing)
 
4:33 AM
@HostileFork I usw Thema current file!/something handling here and there but I'm not attached to it. You're ideas around that seem more valuable. Just wanted to make sure it isn't changed lightheartedly.
 
@ingo Well, not much is done lightheartedly around these parts. But cool. Yes, I wasn't taking away the feature just noticing what happened when pathing and picking got unified...and that was something that I don't think people would want, e.g. pick %foo 1 => %foo/1
But, as I say, who knows long term... we might not immediately dismiss this concept that files being string-looking but needing an operation to make them actual strings could be interesting. It would also help that needling feeling I've had that FILE! should just be FILENAME!
e.g. it would become more a magical step-in for a file, but you use PORT! if you are doing multiple operations
I'd encourage us to stay flexible in thinking, and if we reject an idea, reject it because it's bad... not because it's new.
Unifying pathing and picking/poking gives leverage to try and do systemic improvements. If we can't make these kinds of decisions, it ties one's hands...things will be slow and incoherent.
 
 
3 hours later…
7:24 AM
@HostileFork debug performance improvement: startup time on my phone was 6, now 1.33 (non-debug is 0.33)
 
@giuliolunati Well, the squeaky wheels get the oil! If people use it, and say we want X, that's the best way to get X.
But please run debug, if you can.
 
Sure.
 
 
1 hour later…
8:50 AM
PiEM-It! the smart π-Energy-Monitor for the @Raspberry_Pi now supports @You_Less dataloggers (… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/857872397889933312
 
9:23 AM
@HostileFork OK lets stick with repl! and where it is. Now that you've given me commit rights are you/everyone OK with me merging these minor REPL changes? If so then I can crack on with other stuff discussed :)
@HostileFork re: Other stuff - I've put together my thoughts on all this and put it in a gist... gist.github.com/draegtun/f37e0c15afbe1ba1c66527299510a020
@rgchris @giuliolunati @GrahamChiu @Adrian et al. Please pick apart! Happy to implement whatever consensus we get to on this :)
@rgchris system/repl is experimental and could be renamed to system/console at some later date. Though perhaps system/console should remain separate as a potential GUI REPL??
 
10:09 AM
@draegtun In the "preference for english" thing, I prefer console to REPL, except in the areas where the concepts would be mistaken for each other.
The unfortunate bit being that REPL is the understood term for specifically what REPL means.
But, I am willing to fight back and call it "console"
 
 
1 hour later…
11:29 AM
@draegtun Yes please merge it!
@draegtun Two comments
 
12:11 PM
@giuliolunati Done. NB. So everyone using %repl-skin.reb remember there's a slight change to how it updates settings.
@giuliolunati Thanks and I agree with both of them. I'll let comments build up before giving a summary.
@HostileFork Do we want to change it to system/console now or wait a while?
There is still some old commented out console construct living in sysobj.r - github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/blob/master/src/boot/…
 
 
1 hour later…
1:19 PM
@draegtun Renamed r3n/rebol-vim to rebol-editors
2
Hi all! Let we collect config/syntax files for our favorite editors !
 
1:40 PM
While I'm working on a user-mode LOAD, I have a need to convert a binary to a string (everything read from a file is binary, so a string literal needs to be created from a binary) and ran into the problem that to-string does CRLF conversion to LF, and I had no way to prevent that
I noticed the comment says this needs to be reviewed, and want to see how others think about it
I remember I was bitten by it when I was working on the MySQL scheme: That conversion messed up the secrete seed from the server, and because the seed was different every time, it took me a while to find the culprit.
I would like to propose at least a refinement to prevent the conversion, if we don't want to change the default
 
2:07 PM
@HostileFork I've always wished that FILE! would act more like an imagined DIR!
f: %/root/folder/sub-folder/
first f   ; => %/
pick f 2  ; => %root/
next f    ; => %root/folder/sub-folder
dir? f    ; => true (last element is postfixed with /)
append f %file.txt     ; => %/root/folder/sub-folder/file.txt
last f    ; => %file.txt
dir? f    ; => false
then I'm quite happy that file/1 or file/foo append copy but nice if thru error if wasn't a dir?
f/1    ;; error not dir
take/last f
f        ; => %/root/folder/sub-folder/
f/1      ; => %/root/folder/sub-folder/1
f/foo    ; => %/root/folder/sub-folder/foo
So perhaps only filename can be appended this way? Expect f/foo/ is invalid path but thats OK
So more blockness than stringness :)
 
2:43 PM
@HostileFork I sometimes copy paste a native file link into red console to convert it like so:
>> to-red-file {C:\X\1}
== %/C/X/1
Would something similar still work? My concern is when that conversion fails. I'm not sure if ren has such a function
@MarkI a more concrete version of your argument I believe, if correct
 
3:06 PM
I've not yet been able to compile my own qt app tho.. have been really close I want to believe
 
3:39 PM
@GeekyI to-rebol-file
(an argument against using the language name in function names)
Should be to-native-file or some such.
@ShixinZeng I thought load was already user-mode?
 
@rgchris I meant the parser/transcode actually
 
Got it.
 
 
4 hours later…
7:25 PM
@HostileFork I say it should not be automatically converted. and it wasn't the case in r2.

R2
>> to string! to binary! a: rejoin ["abc" cr lf "def"]
== "abc^M^/def"

R3
>> to string! to binary! a: rejoin ["abc" cr lf "def"]
== "abc^/def"
The default should be not to change it, I wouldn't even add a refinement, but a function like clean-newline or something like that. This would allow to either change to the current platform default, or to windows / unix ... whatever.
@ShixinZeng --^
 
@ingo I agree
Another thing I noticed was that /1 was a valid refinement:
>> type-of /1
== refinement!
I wonder how people would use such refinements
One can't reference it by '1', apparently
Note that it's the number '1', not letter 'l'
>> to refinement! 1
** Script error: expected word! not integer!
** Where: to
** Near: to refinement! 1 ??
** Note: use WHY for more error information
But for conversion, it can't convert from an integer
 
7:50 PM
posted on April 28, 2017 by IngoHohmann

It is impossible to access urls with embedded ! see these access tests curl http://localhost:8080/test:bla!blub server log: 127.0.0.1 - - [28/Apr/2017:20:57:51 +0200] "GET /test:bla!blub HTTP/1.1" 404 30 - curl/7.53.1 >> read http://localhost:8080/test:bla!blub server log: 127.0.0.1 - - [28/Apr/2017:20:56:49 +0200] "GET /test:bla HTTP/1.0" 404 30 - REBOL curl http://localhost:8080/tes

 
8:01 PM
Magic is nice, but sooner or later it'll bite you.
2
 
@HostileFork No word from Bo?
 
8:21 PM
@ingo @ShixinZeng My thoughts on the matter: github.com/zsx/r3/issues/15#issuecomment-146553448
I've learned with time, that in design, sometimes you have to push back on requirements. (For instance, if you're doing a graphic and there's a certain text you are given, then that amount of text and precise wording may not be able to fit in the design. You may have to rewrite or reword some of it, or drop some of the text.)
With the diverse ecology of files and formats, I think that when it comes to text encodings, whatever we can do to enforce homogeneity is integral to the goal of simplification. So I say the burden in text on those with CR/LF is that these strings cause errors by default, and are not silently tolerated in reading, writing, or conversion.
Definitely no silent omission, though--as pointed out, that is infuriating.
@iArnold I'm not personally that interested in the domain name system mafia, or their license to print money. The people who should be fighting for the ".org" variant are the people who uploaded and used scripts there. Sunanda's been no ally of the future, so if his ugly website goes down and gets taken over by spammers, you won't find that many tears shed by me. I might just think it's funny.
@ShixinZeng I definitely don't want to discourage research in this area--we need a better answer than the one today. But I'd give a warning that a parse-based scanner will be significantly slower: my hope had been for a rules-based generative system that made C/native code. And we do want to still have good feedback and knowledge of the error types (e.g. the recent changes to assist in the user-mode REPL) as well as knowing the line numbers to put them into arrays.
And again, I'd wanted to do it the opposite way, to embed this native smart scanner into PARSE itself. So that PARSE would be the exposure of this common fast subsystem (effectively meaning there is no TRANSCODE native)
@rgchris This seems a good idea to me
@draegtun I declare you the console/repl Czar. :-)
 
8:40 PM
@HostileFork Agree on the dns mob standpoint. The scripts are the real lost cause. They could be hosted elsewhere.
 
@iArnold I'm happy to chip in for renewing if Carl wants to hand it off, at the ordinary renewal with possible small penalty, but if anyone expects me to start bidding hundreds of dollars to buy it they are expecting incorrectly.
And while there's no great community cohesion about what to do with it, I expect people who know me would know that my idea of it working would be to keep old links alive. Even my old junky wordpress style links, e.g. http://hostilefork.com/2007/12/16/perfect-reconstruction-equalizer/, still work on my site.
@ShixinZeng With the "should you be able to have a refinement /1" question, I will remind everyone of the distinction between what's "natural" and what's legal.
R3-Alpha made a change, that you could mechanically not even produce a word that had spaces in it--for instance. (Rebol2 had allowed it. Red apparently, uh to string! to word! "a b c" => "a", so it's... just out there doing its own thing.)
I don't know if /1 should be a "natural" refinement or not, but I do know I've been rather interested in 1:, e.g. for specifying positional arguments to apply. apply 'append [1: my-block 2: my-value].
And my stance on legality has long been that we must make all strings legal words from a legality standpoint...but unnatural words need some kind of systemic escaping/construction syntax. I don't feel like rehashing the argument right now, but I can if anyone doesn't remember it.
 
9:01 PM
@HostileFork +1 from me.
 
@ingo The nutshell argument: if you are making a dialect and that dialect has behaviors cued by type, it sucks if you have to invent your own escaping syntax each time because people want to cue whatever the dialect did on something that's not a natural word. Everyone reinvents escaping.
An interesting case of this is character names in Draem, the movie-script-type dialect. Character names translate hyphens in SET-WORD! into spaces. It would be awkward if it didn't. But it's hard to expect that to be a universal rule (you wouldn't want to-string 'a-b to be "a b")
 
@HostileFork On the cr/lf issue, I'm with you when you say new files should be written with just lf. Not so sure I like newlines in files I've read being changed, let alone tabs. In R2 it was your choice, read/write as binary or as string, when using /binary refinement it wasn't changed. We need to be able to decide in ren-c as well.
 
@ingo I like the noisy answer. Noisy on read, noisy on write. Which is to say that if you use the workaround to load something with CRs, you get the CRs...and then you need to use a similar workaround to write it too.
But I want the general zeitgeist :-) to be that when you're doing string work within Rebol, you can trust that plain line feed is line break.
People bringing strings in with CR need to know they're the oddballs.
And to me, this is all part of "the revolution"...there's too little prescriptivism out there, too many languages that are just Turing tarpit equivalents of each other
 
9:33 PM
So, I bet not too many people have used OPT. It was introduced to turn blanks into voids. But I'm wondering if that's backwards of the common case, which is voids turned to blanks.
e.g. opt () => _
unless opt :foo/bar [print "bar wasn't in foo, but we wanted a graceful way of putting that in a condition, for instance."]
But that hinges on blanks being false, and I still don't know that I'm fully on board with this.
 
9:54 PM
@pekr et all:
> should realise, that there is mostly noone recently, pushing RebGUI nor R3-GUI further, that's all. I am not saying that to discourage anyone from anything, just as a reality. Right now, it seems, the only Redbol GUI related effort happens in terms of Red.

Pekr, having ad uncomplete/confusing documentation does not help adopting REBOL3. Anyone which will need REBOL3 and a simple GUI will have an easy path after this work.
Also I prefer having RED and REBOL3 GUIs both understandable and usable. Bear in mind that R3GUI is functional, not complete, but functional. Documentatio
@HostileFork.
> Rebol has had many foundational problems.
I prefeer writing it has many advancement and it needs some refinement. It is more fair and balanced and respectful for the giant work made by Carl.
Also, I would like to read Carl opinion about those "Flaws" and why he made such choice.
Please remember he still has in his mind the "Big Pictures" of the world he created while many of us are able to undestand only small part of his view.
@HostileFork Also I have not understood if REN has an usable GUI system with documentation and or ODBC access !
 
@GiuseppeChillemi What influences me most about Carl is his philosophy... which isn't necessarily one he "owns" but it's certainly one that got him some traction. He's a bit like the kid in the story about the Emperor's New Clothes, but his reaction is to the Emperor's New Software. While you might not think it would be rare for people to "just say no" to "software complexity pollution", it is rare.
If you ask me if Carl is a great coder, I'm not sure if Rebol is the codebase he'd uphold as his truest work. I'm not going to judge anyone too harshly based on them deciding to dump the state of their hobby project, rather than keep it locked up forever. That's rude.
So if I criticize R3-Alpha, I want to be specific as it's talking about things going wrong in that codebase, and depersonalize it.
@GiuseppeChillemi But I will tell you, you are speaking with a genius in his own right. Who Carl himself has called "one of his inspirations". So. Anyway. Don't spend all your respect in one place.
 
@HostileFork
> Atronix uses nearly all custom code, and their interest in Rebol is pretty much entirely for expressing process and industrial automation logic. The GUI is something they've had to work around to get the effect they want, and largely abandoned

I would like to ear from them the reason why they have abandoned using R3GUI...
 
There's more than one smart person at this party.
@GiuseppeChillemi Atronix's need is mostly for a ZUI (Zoomable User Interface) as per Google Maps. Look at the video. That's their whole app, the whole program is in the ZUI.
Their GUI is one big custom control.
Graham had a hard time just getting R3's GUI to do a StackOverflow chat client. Too much was missing. You can hardly build Google Maps with it.
 
10:16 PM
@HostileFork >Don't spend all your respect in one place.
I have a lot of respect for everyone capable of creating and maintaining such a big and revolutionary thing like REBOL. Please consider you will find there even knowledge about the working of our cognitive system and how it decodes informations.
His "make it simple" is more complex than it seems.

Also my respect go to everyone able to undestand, modify and criticize his project as this demostrate great skill.
2
 
@GiuseppeChillemi Well I'll star that. But you might not realize quite just how much work has been happening here.
 
I would like to take a the whole atronix software made in REBOL !
I see it. It comes from your "big picture" and since it won't be complete I would neither comment nor criticize becouse it is a WIP (work in progess).
 
@GiuseppeChillemi Maybe someday, but for now, think of it as a large custom control in C/C++, linked to callbacks written as Rebol, and to an industrial control protocol. What they work with are systems like Ladder Logic and bridging this to various drivers they've written. David explains all this, in his talk, which was before the ZUI: youtube.com/watch?v=jIw7aRP6JPU
We simply don't have the bandwidth to develop a pioneering new GUI right now. Red has chosen to spend nearly all of its bandwidth on that. If this is your passion, please go help them.
If anything, we might take the ZUI concept and say all R3-GUIs are ZUI. Who knows.
But what I do know is that the "Tcl/Tk and Visual Basic forms universe" is property of Red, for now--and I do not fret over their ownership of that--largely because I don't think it's going to market well, but if it does, I'll perk up and pay attention.
 
> Graham had a hard time just getting R3's GUI to do a StackOverflow chat client. Too much was missing. You can hardly build Google Maps with it.

I would like a lot if someone would be able to complete this work but now it seems we are in the RED era.
So, REBOL3 will be used and slowly bug fixed.
RED will reach a stage were it will be more powerful and complete than REBOL2
REBOL3/REN... well the future is in you hands.
Hope REBOL3 will be evolved from CARL in the future just to see which is his view of the language.
 
@GiuseppeChillemi Yes, Red is aiming to fulfill the Rebol2 users. If you liked Rebol2, give Red 3-5 years and you will have something that will make you happier.
 
10:25 PM
>> So, REBOL3 will be used and slowly bug fixed.

So, REBOL3 and R3GUI will be used and slowly bug fixed for the capabilties he has and nothing more
 
I feel that's a fairly small market to focus on pleasing, it hasn't grown much, look at the retweet counts of their demos.
 
@HostileFork which is the subject of the last phrase ?
 
@GiuseppeChillemi Don't put Rebol3 and R3-GUI together. If you've missed it, there's been a lot of engineering in the guts of the only developed Rebol3 codebase anyone is using.
I'm sorry to put you in a position: where if you are invested in the GUI, and yet Red is not mature enough, to say that we do not have a GUI priority here.
You may, at your discretion, fund development of it... if you can find people willing to take you on.
I won't take your money, though.
Perhaps Robert would?
 
> If you liked Rebol2, give Red 3-5 years and you will have something that will make you happier

I have not used the full REBOL2 potential, I am not able to fully undestand all the advancements of REBOL3. I think RED will suffice for me for the next 5 years
>> Don't put Rebol3 and R3-GUI together. If you've missed it, there's been a lot of engineering in the guts of the only developed Rebol3 codebase anyone is using.

Are you referring to the Atronix one ?
 
@GiuseppeChillemi I'm not opposed to people who are satisfied with what Red gives to use Red. This doesn't harm me whatsoever. I think Nenad sees it differently w.r.t. people using what I work on. I just giggle when I say foo: func next [x y] [print ["I shouldn't even see" x]] and then foo 10 20 and it says I shouldn't even see 10. I like laughing at him.
In his slide deck, he said something about how bad humans are at programming, and had a picture of Data from Star Trek, and said when AI look back at human programmers they would laugh. He got his wish.
Anyway, that's so 2 years ago for Rebol. We don't make that kind of mistake.
 
10:33 PM
>> I just giggle when I say foo: func next [x y] [print ["I shouldn't even see" x]] and then foo 10 20 and it says I shouldn't even see 10

Or NENAD will adopt your POV and make the necessary changes to RED2.0
 
@GiuseppeChillemi ... maybe. I'm intentionally making it very hard. If he takes an idea from me, that's kind of a test, of whether the idea is so good it can't be turned down regardless of origin.
So that gives me some data.
 
>> I'm sorry to put you in a position: where if you are invested in the GUI, and yet Red is not mature enough, to say that we do not have a GUI priority here.

I don't say this, I don't see any usable GUI system here... or probably I am missing something.
 
@GiuseppeChillemi You are correct, we are trying to inform you that attempting to document old Rebol GUI efforts is probably in vain. Red is the only known continuation of historical VID/RebGUI/R3-GUI/whatever that we know of.
 
Hope your GUI system will be ready soon.
 
Any GUI effort launched here would either be completely different and lazy (QML clone), or if Red's GUI turns out to please some audience and be well-defined, a copy of that.
 
10:37 PM
Lets' see
 
But the burden of "pleasing an audience" is on Red getting a powerful, persuasive app... or going insanely viral with one of their demos.
That still has not happened.
I don't see why I should copy anything unsuccessful.
I need to dig up Carl's original essay, on why he thought he should bother to make Rebol, and it was very much about the idea that we've forgotten that we could do a lot more (in some ways) with a word processor that fit on one floppy disk than our software catastrophe of today.
@GiuseppeChillemi Well, so are you going to take all your collective GUI knowledge and go help Red or not?
 
I am at the end of my work on R3GUI. It only remains to publish it on some site and ask for the site with wrong documentation to correct it.
Get in contact with Atronix as I have seen modification to R3GUI in the repository and correct/improve documentation based on their work
Ask to Saphirion if their internal version has been developed and if it could be in Sync with Atronix one.
 
@GiuseppeChillemi (a) That's really only you who cares, or if you give feedback to Red. (b) They aren't really interested. (c) No.
 
I have seen another programmer in this chat which uses R3GUI.. I am not alone...
 
Bo uses it.
But, really, if Bo wants to put a few dollars out there, we can make his apps work under the current language. I don't think he really needs it at this moment.
 
10:44 PM
RED GUI is a WIP I will try to use it, document it but not suggest anything. I have not the skills
 
@GiuseppeChillemi Well, don't let being unskilled stop you from being a Red contributor. <snicker>
 
Lets see...
 

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