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12:32 AM
@HostileFork The only thing I can think of (besides ad-hoc) is "the opening parenthesis is enough to indicate that the whole expression, including what comes after the closing parenthesis if that begins with an operator, is to be evaluated before being passed", reason being if the expression you'd like to pass has to begin with a parenthetic term, you are freed from requiring another set around the whole expression.
@giuliolunati Having fixed arity does not mean no hidden parentheses! It's why I think Rebol's refinement model for functions maps natural language better: I see the-dog evolves to I see/with the-dog my-eyes ...
 
 
3 hours later…
4:06 AM
Anyone around to help a Linux noob? I have managed to build ren-c on an Ubuntu 64bit VirtualBox VM. What I'd like to do is run that new executable on my Linux 64bit NAS so I can have cron based scripts running. But it doesn't run presumably some missing libraries, but I don't know enough to resolve the problem. My initial approach was to build on the nas itself but that failed miserably to the point that I was worried I'd stuff up the nas, hence the new failing approach.
 
@Brett Failed miserably building how?
 
@HostileFork Not a ren-c build issue - couldn't install required packages on NAS to build. It builds fine in the VM but when I take that exe to the NAS it is missing some libraries or something. I tried different OS ids for make but that seemed to be ignored.
 
@Brett Does rebolsource Rebol work on it?
 
2.100.111.4.2 works on it.
My build on the VM is 64bit.
 
@Brett It shouldn't be different in terms of the dependencies. But you might try adding to your HFLAGS and RFLAGS a -DNDEBUG to do a release build.
That's one area where the rebolsource build defaults and the ren-c build defaults differ, just because there is no debug instrumentation in R3-Alpha.
 
4:16 AM
@HostileFork Ok. Where do I put that in?
 
@Brett the generated makefile on the HFLAGS and RFLAGS lines. Then make clean and make
 
Righto. will try.
 
@Brett On debian style distributions, you really should only need sudo apt-get install build-essential to get the gcc compiler.
 
@HostileFork I did try that but it didn't work for me, maybe I stuffed up apt ... I don't know.
 
@Brett What message do you get if you try and install build-essential?
 
4:21 AM
ReadyNas:/c/home/brett# sudo apt-get install build-essential
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Package build-essential is not available, but is referred to by another package.
This may mean that the package is missing, has been obsoleted, or
is only available from another source
E: Package build-essential has no installation candidate
@HostileFork After doing this I get:
./r3: error while loading shared libraries: libdl.so.2: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
 
4
Q: "No Installation Candidate" when trying to install build-essential

Dave Perryapt-get install build-essential fails with the following errors: ~$ sudo apt-get install build-essential Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done Package build-essential is not available, but is referred to by another package. This may mean ...

@Brett Is there a libdl.so.2 in /lib (or elsewhere in your file system?)
 
ReadyNas:/lib# ls -l libdl.so*
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 12 2017-01-14 17:23 libdl.so.2 -> libdl-2.7.so
 
@Brett what is echo $LD_LIBRARY_PATH
 
@HostileFork nothing
 
@Brett :-/ Try export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/lib and run r3 from that same shell.
It should automatically be looking in /lib
But, for some reason it is not
Or, maybe that symlink is dead. Is there ls -l /lib/libdl-2.7.so
 
4:33 AM
./r3: error while loading shared libraries: libdl.so.2: wrong ELF class: ELFCLASS32
 
Just from basic browsing around, it may be that NAS is tailored to i586, not generic x64
 
It's pretty old (end of life and all that)
 
So the installed support libraries are basically optimized and using special instructions just on that chip type. Not that it couldn't run a generic x64 codebase if it wanted to, you just would have to install libraries for it...like having 32-bit support libs on 64-bit
And your /lib may just be there for 32-bit compatibility
 
Is that something that could lose my data or is it easy enough to do.
 
@Brett I tend to not like installing compatibility layers in things; usually I just make new VMs.
@Brett Try this instead:
 
4:37 AM
@HostileFork Ok. So if it's a risk, I'll just leave the NAS be. It's pretty reliable doing it's NAS like things.
 
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get install libc6-dev gcc
@Brett I'm still not getting why 64 bit Rebolsource would work and 64-bit ren-c would not :-(
 
@HostileFork I'm not sure that rebolsource was 64bit.
 
@Brett Double-check that if you can
Or just try downloading the 64-bit one
 
** Version: 2.100.111.4.2 **
** Platform: Linux libc6-x86 **
** Build: 3-Mar-2011/0:00:03 **
*
 
64-bit versions end in 40.
So...you could probably build a 32-bit Ren-C and run it on that machine...your /lib contains libraries for 32-bit ELF
If 64-bit rebolsource x64 doesn't run, it probably confirms my theory that your main libs are i586 specific
 
4:45 AM
./r3-linux-x64-gbf237fc: error while loading shared libraries: libdl.so.2: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
 
Yup
The thing is that with a dedicated system like that, running generic software is probably not as important to the people making it as running the specific purpose software as fast as possible.
 
Ah the static version runs:

** Version: 2.101.0.4.40 **
** Platform: Linux libc-x64
 
Yep, that's another option. You can statically link libc.
 
@HostileFork Is that another flag in the make file?
 
@Brett In the Ren-C makefile link line, change to CLIB=-static -ldl -lm ...
(Whatever it is, add -static)
 
4:51 AM
[typo - building...]
@HostileFork Hooray! Thank you, that runs.
@HostileFork I have to run out now, but thank you for your help.
 
@Brett Cool. For our best information and testing, if you can take out the -DNDEBUG it will as usual run slower but more tellingly.
 
@HostileFork Will do when I return later.
 
 
2 hours later…
6:55 AM
@HostileFork That is exact the point made by other ppl from the (ex)community I still speak. GC will be tested poorly.
 
Sadly the "static" build is insufficient for http on the NAS whereas it's fine on the VM:
>> read http://www.rebol.com
** Access error: cannot connect: tcp://www.rebol.com:80 reason: 2
** Where: open --anonymous-- open unless sync-op either --anonymous-- read
** Near: port open conn ?? port

** Note: use WHY? for more error information

>> why?
DEBUG BUILD INFO:
__FILE__ = ../src/core/p-net.c
__LINE__ = 159
Opening web browser...
** Access error: external process failed: "Operation not permitted"
Probably because of:
bjs/host-library.o: In function `OS_Open_Library':
host-library.c:(.text+0xa): warning: Using 'dlopen' in statically linked applications requires at runtime the shared libraries from the glibc version used for linking
objs/dev-dns.o: In function `Read_DNS':
dev-dns.c:(.text+0x6b): warning: Using 'gethostbyaddr' in statically linked applications requires at runtime the shared libraries from the glibc version used for linking
objs/dev-net.o: In function `Lookup_Socket':
dev-net.c:(.text+0x3a9): warning: Using 'gethostbyname' in statically linked applications requires at r
Sigh... I guess the Nas is too limited.
 
@Brett Were you able to do that install line for just gcc and libc6-dev ?
 
With the caveat that sudo doesn't accept my password, but su works for me: no.
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
gcc: Depends: cpp (>= 4:4.3.2-2) but it is not going to be installed
Depends: gcc-4.3 (>= 4.3.2-1) but it is not going to be installed
 
@Brett It seems your system supports 32-bit executables, so if that works, I doubt it's much of a concern that you're not using a 64-bit build.
 
@HostileFork So how do I build ren-c as 32bit?
I tried the OS ID thing earlier and that didn't work.
Oh hang on, perhaps I should have editied the makefile directly.
 
7:07 AM
@Brett You need to do the make -f makefile.boot with the 32-bit OS_ID for linux. If you're building on a 64-bit machine you'll have to add -m32 to the HFLAGS, RFLAGS, maybe CLIB. I don't remember exactly where all you have to put the -m32
 
I'll do some research.
 
@Brett It might do it for you automatically...try make -f makefile.boot make OS_ID=0.4.04
I guess it looks to always throw in the -m32 switch because it doesn't hurt if you're on a 32-bit system to have it.
 
It's not happy:
tt@brett-ubuntu1604:~/Projects/Public/ren-c/make$ make -f makefile.boot make OS_ID=0.4.04
./r3-make -qs ../src/tools/make-make.r 0.4.04
"0.4.04"
Option set for building: 0.4.4 linux-x86
Created: ../../make/makefile
brett@brett-ubuntu1604:~/Projects/Public/ren-c/make$ make clean
brett@brett-ubuntu1604:~/Projects/Public/ren-c/make$ make
make r3
make[1]: Entering directory '/home/brett/Projects/Public/ren-c/make'
mkdir -p objs
gcc ../src/core/a-constants.c -c -DTO_LINUX -DTO_LINUX_X86 -DREB_API -m32 -DENDIAN_LITTLE -DHAS_LL_CONSTS -O2 -fvisibility=hidden -I. -I../src/include/
 
@Brett try sudo apt-get install gcc-multilib
 
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
gcc-multilib: Depends: cpp (>= 4:4.3.2-2) but it is not going to be installed
Depends: gcc (>= 4:4.3.2-2) but it is not going to be installed
Depends: gcc-4.3-multilib (>= 4.3.2-1) but it is not going to be installed
 
7:15 AM
@Brett This is on your non-NAS?
 
@HostileFork Oh sorry, getting confused.
@HostileFork Done.
 
@Brett See if that can then build the 32-bit Ren-C, and then if that 32-bit build can do ordinary shared library use
 
Ok so now running:
make -f makefile.boot make OS_ID=0.4.04
make clean
make
 
still need a make prep in there maybe
If it didn't do it
 
it didn't, will make prep after the .boot line
well it build 64 bit again I mean.
oops prep comes after clean I guess.
 
7:22 AM
Doesn't make a difference
 
** Version: 2.102.0.4.40 **
** Platform: Linux libc-x64
?
Not sure why it is ignoring the OS_ID
 
@Brett Hm. What's the OS_ID in the makefile? What happens if you delete the makefile and run the make -f again?
Did the build finish without errors? What happens if you delete the r3?
 
Just deleted objs, makefile, r3. I see from the make prep this line:
./r3-make -qs ../src/tools/make-boot.r 0.4.4
Its building now.
And it built:
** Version: 2.102.0.4.40 **
** Platform: Linux libc-x64
makefile shows:
OS_ID?= 0.4.4
 
@Brett Hrm. Well, this may imply that the guessing logic at some point took over and it is guessing even though it shouldn't be, because an explicit version is being passed.
Let me try this myself
@Brett getting the same result, ok, looking.
@Brett Hm. It seems that the make prep script is expecting OS_ID=0.4.4, but getting just 0.4.4. People probably haven't noticed because the only effect is reporting the incorrect version.
e.g. that's a 32-bit executable
 
7:42 AM
I tried it on the nas but it spit out:
ReadyNas:/c/home/brett# ./r3
./r3: /lib/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.9' not found (required by ./r3)
./r3: /lib/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.11' not found (required by ./r3)
./r3: /lib/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.16' not found (required by ./r3)
So I tried:
ReadyNas:/c/home/brett# /lib/libc.so.6
GNU C Library stable release version 2.7, by Roland McGrath et al.
C
 
Yay ...
@HostileFork So at this point should I give up on the nas?
 
@Brett If you can run the 32-bit build from rebolsource, there shouldn't be a reason you can't run the 32-bit Ren-C. So long as we're here, we might as well figure out why. So I guess just re-ensure you can run the non-statically linked rebolsource 32-bit linux r3
If so I'll dump the symbols out and see what the difference is
 
** Version: 2.101.0.4.2 **
** Platform: Linux libc6-2-3-x86
@HostileFork Does that mean I should be compiling with 0.4.2?
[which I'll try]
 
@Brett Looks worth a try.
 
7:53 AM
bah..
ReadyNas:/c/home/brett# ./r3
./r3: error while loading shared libraries: libdl.so.2: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
@HostileFork This fix was for the header only correct, doesn't affect the build? [I haven't incorporated it yet]
 
@Brett I don't think it has an effect on the link
@Brett Out of vague curiosity, since this is a 32-bit executable, what happens if you have the export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/lib now?
 
ReadyNas:/c/home/brett# ./ren-c
./ren-c: error while loading shared libraries: libdl.so.2: wrong ELF class: ELFCLASS32
 
Hmmm. :-( That's weird, since it's a 32-bit executable supposedly.
 
ReadyNas:/c/home/brett# file r3-g25033f8
r3-g25033f8: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.26, stripped
ReadyNas:/c/home/brett# file ren-c
ren-c: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.32, stripped
 
@Brett And the r3 from rebolsource doesn't say it's 64-bit? oh, I see that's right above
Ok, well that's not right.
 
7:58 AM
This is weird:
>> what
** Script error: what is missing its name argument
[..]

>> help what
USAGE:
WHAT 'name /args
[..]

ARGUMENTS:
'name [<opt> word! lit-word!]
Optional module name
 
@Brett I am also getting an r3 out of the cross-compile process that says it's 64-bit
 
@HostileFork Well that's comforting (for me)
 
It's not putting m32 in the command line even though it's in the compile flags, ok... looking at it :-/
@GeekyI wat?
 
@HostileFork Haha. I see what you did there?
I'm searching on trello
Is it the best place to read about differences in ren-c?
I'm kinda missing ?? and ? and was looking for alternatives
 
@GeekyI Yes, but I've been actually kind of not working on documentation much lately. Still pondering deep ponders.
>> a: 10
== 10

>> b: 20
== 20

>> dump [a b (a + b)]
a: => 10
b: => 20
a + b => 30
 
8:04 AM
@HostileFork yes!
@HostileFork but I think it's not working as expected? 'name in whats not <opt>ional?
 
@Brett This stuff is longstanding we're just dealing with more variants...I imagine earl didn't cross-compile that libc 2.3 version, so the fact that -M32 was missing on it was unnoticed. It got noticed in the more recent builds by someone who added it when cross-compiling I imagine. Fix here: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/commit/…
All of these things usually have a rational explanation :-)
@GeekyI All such things can be addressed by those with the interest in taking it on. :-) One thing about Ren-C is that there is no such thing as an UNSET! value, so a void has no display...I guess it could just say asdfasdf: => and leave it at that.
Seems reasonable to me to make it <opt>
 
@HostileFork yes, I believe so.. but
 
@HostileFork Cool. Being a git noob too, using SourceTree on windows, I need a little help to pull this fix in. So using sourcetree, I've pulled from upstread, pushed to my repo. Now I want to sync that to my Linux vm git clone - could you tell me the git command to enter for now so I can try the build?
 
@Brett If you have no local changes, git pull should be enough.
 
@HostileFork >> what: [ /optarg name /args ]
Is what I would have expected in normal rebol
Hmm..
 
8:13 AM
@GeekyI Hm? Are we talking about DUMP or WHAT?
 
Is this variadics?
@HostileFork WHAT
 
@GeekyI If you want WHAT to have a behavior with no arguments, you can do that with <end>ability.
That is a lighter form of variadic.
 
I think I just don't understand how <opt> is supposed to work then
 
>> foo: proc [x [<end> integer!]] [either any-value? :x [print x] [print "no x"]]

>> foo 1
1

>> foo
no x
>> foo: proc [x [<opt> integer!]] [either any-value? :x [print x] [print "no x"]]

>> foo 1
1

>> foo ()
no x
@GeekyI ^-- they are different.
 
Thanks. I tried the build with 0.4.2 and it ended up with the following:
ReadyNas:/c/home/brett# ./ren-c
./ren-c: /lib/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.9' not found (required by ./ren-c)
./ren-c: /lib/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.11' not found (required by ./ren-c)
./ren-c: /lib/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.16' not found (required by ./ren-c)

I wonder if it's not pickup up the library versions properly.
@HostileFork I'm called to dinner, so I'll head off for the evening now. Thanks for looking at it today.
 
8:21 AM
@Brett Quick, first what does the file say on ren-c you built?
 
ReadyNas:/c/home/brett# file ren-c
ren-c: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.32, stripped
More promising.
 
@Brett Well we see a difference, I'll look how you might say it say 2.6.26 like rebolsource's
It may be you have to build on an older linux :-/
 
Ugh.
 
But let me see if I can figure out what that means exactly
TTYL
 
Cheers.
 
8:27 AM
@Brett When you get a chance, can you get what ldd ./ren-c reports, as well as what it says about the 32-bit rebolsource build? I'm getting the same thing back from both.
00000000      DF *UND*  00000000  GLIBC_2.16  __poll_chk
00000000      DF *UND*  00000000  GLIBC_2.11  __longjmp_chk
^-- There's the culprits, so nevermind. I'm looking at it.
@Brett Try adding to your RFLAGS and HFLAGS -DFORTIFY_SOURCE=0. Long story made short, modern linuxes have been adding more secure versions of things and are using them by default in newer GCCs. The version of gcc earl used to build the rebolsource 32-bit linux versions likely did not try to link to these safer things.
If that works for you, we can add it to the older GLIBC builds.
@Brett Sorry, typo above, it's -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=0
 
9:25 AM
@Brett and looking at it, the libc link switches are purely commentary. :-( So the OS_ID is really more a documentation point of what the person doing the building knew about the result executable.
The build process could in theory after it's done making the executable run objdump -T ./r3, look at the GLIBC_* data, and determine if the largest version number was consistent with what was labeled in the build...but I don't know that there's an a-priori way to know what your compiler is going to do with the codebase to generate the version number beforehand. It could link twice, rebuilding an obj with just the updated version # in-between... :-/
I feel like there needs to be a separate token whose interpretation is "get-and-might-be-void" vs. "get-and-isn't-void". Like @foo would be the void tolerant version, and :foo would be the non-void tolerant version, or vice versa.
opt-word!, opt-path! (?) get-opt-word!, get-opt-path!, (?) at-word!, at-path! (?)
Unfortunate thing being that at word can't be used for get/opt word since AT is taken. But logically, it would be nice if whatever the XXX-WORD! was you could have xxx word be the function equivalent
 
 
2 hours later…
11:45 AM
@Brett It's actually more complex, I think, so here is my attempt to get your time-travel cross-compilation, from a modern GCC to your NAS: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/commit/…
 
 
8 hours later…
7:59 PM
@HostileFork what's the difference between PROTECT and LOCK? I thought they are pretty much the same except there is no UNLOCK, but
>> a: construct [] [i: 1]
== make object! [
[self: i]
[
i: 1
]
]

>> lock a
== make object! [
[self: i]
[
i: 1
]
]

>> a/i: 2
== 2
So the fields in a locked object can still be modified
but APPEND is not allowed
>> append a [j: 100]
** Access error: series is source or permanently locked, can't modify
** Where: append
** Near: append a [j: 100] ??
 
@ShixinZeng Just a bug. LOCK was made for the specific task of preventing source from being modified, and so hasn't had a lot of testing.
I'll look at it.
@ShixinZeng Want to update the coverity-scan branch to get a new analysis report?
 
Let me see when I can find some time to work on that
I am right now trying to make dynamic extensions work
 
@ShixinZeng Doesn't just updating the branch automatically get it to make a new report, or is there something else that has to be done?
 
@HostileFork yes, it should. You just need to merge master to that branch, but it's been a while, things could have changed
 
@ShixinZeng Ok. Well I was going to run clang static analyzer and see if it picks up any obvious mistakes.
 
8:05 PM
@HostileFork To make dynamically loaded extensions work, we need to export every symbols that the core has, because we don't have a stable API yet.
I've very close getting it working (tested on both Windows and Linux)
 
@ShixinZeng Are you doing it with a table, as the RL_Api did?
 
No, just export the symbols in the executable
and let LoadLibrary/dlopen figure it out
 
@ShixinZeng You found a way to do that on windows to work with .EXE files?
 
Yes, it's actually very simple, if you specify the symbol with __declspec(dllexport), an import library will be created for the executable, and the extension just needs to be linked with that import library
 
Well, it may not be something every older platform can do. We may have to fall back on the table approach for them. But cross that bridge when needed.
Or just say those platforms have to build the extensions into the EXE
 
8:11 PM
The problem with the table approach is that we need to pretty much redo the work of LoadLibrary/dlopen
I haven't found a way to add symbols for them for symbol resolusion
 
Yup, you wind up making macros
So Append_Value externally is defined like #define Append_Value(a,b) table[128](a,b) or somesuch
 
even that, the extension still needs to resolve the symbol 'table'
 
@ShixinZeng It keeps its own copy (of the pointer), and that gets passed by the EXE into the initialization function it calls for the DLL. The table is set up by the EXE.
 
That's a good idea
 
I believe that is what I determined to be the original intent of doing the RL_Api the way it was done. Not that you'd know it from what ended up happening.
(Because the RL_Init function undermines that very concept)
 
8:22 PM
I thought the idea of Host_Lib was to break the dependency cycle
 
I was talking about RL_LIB
But confused yes because the table passed in is for the host not the reb lib.
 
Right
 
Anyway, the point being that initializing Rebol assumes you link to a static table, as you say, which means you need the table to be able to resolve.
But if the DLL entry point got the address of the table and it was singularly defined in the EXE then problem solved.
 
Yep
but what platform do you think will have problem exporting symbols in an exe?
 
@ShixinZeng Well, I thought people (including you) said Windows wouldn't do it.
But things like Haiku, Syllable, weirder targets... I dunno. They might, they might not.
 
8:36 PM
I thought Windows exe couldn't export symbols, but it works at least on Windows 10
 
Didn't TCC have to do the trick to use the functions, vs. just use the symbols in the EXE?
I knew there was a reason you couldn't load an EXE as if it were a DLL from another EXE, because the loader wouldn't relocate the addresses.
The idea being that an EXE has all its addresses hardcoded, and so do DLLs, but if the DLL overlaps the EXE or another DLL they will be rewritten so the addresses don't collide.
And the loader just won't do that to an EXE on behalf of another EXE without some kind of weird hacks. They both assume they don't need to move.
 
Yes, back when we worked on the TCC thing, we didn't try to export symobls to exe on Windows.
 
But the idea of a DLL being able to call into the EXE hosting it is different.
@ShixinZeng Well, maybe that can be used there too.
 
Yes, I'll try it out
 
My point just being that there's a worst case scenario solution, which is to pass a table of functions to the extension init.
 
8:41 PM
Agreed
 
The source can still look the same, just the functions will be macros. We'll have to auto-generate those macros, but that's not hard.
 
Yep, I'll keep using the exporting approach to get it working, and then we can fall back to the table approach if that's needed
 
posted on January 23, 2017 by OneArb

What do I need besides focus some-field for the field caret to be show and ready to type? Thanks

 
9:03 PM
@HostileFork user native works on without manually adding the symbols if they are exported in the exe
 
Hi Folks. Been looking for a place to start to see how Rebol can be used for web dev. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
im coming from node.js/js
 
@HostileFork Oops, I meant on Windows
 
@idkjs A lot of the usage has been static site generators. One of the attempts to bring dialecting into routing and such is QuarterMaster, by @rgchris
@idkjs This recent question may give some ideas of the lower level state of things
@idkjs This recent experiment may give some ideas of how the future might look
 
@HostileFork was just reading your site. you noted it was built on rebol.
 
Jan 5 at 5:31, by rgchris
server-1: open [
    scheme: 'httpd
    port-id: 8000
    awake: func [request][...response...]
]

server-2: open [
    scheme: 'httpd
    port-id: 8080
    awake: func [request][...a different response...]
]

wait [server-1 server-2]
 
9:12 PM
so possible. Cool.
Thanks for links.
 
@idkjs It's a static site generator, using a dialect and processed with PARSE.
2
The game Rebol is playing is kind of like "natural-language Lisp meets Forth aesthetics".
Obsessive dependency control...not just dependencies of the runtime, but dependencies of the toolchain used to build it. Includes pathological bit-twiddling. Historically it inherited a lot less formalism than I would like. :-/
@ShixinZeng Sounds good. As I say, I'm less surprised it would work to call back into the EXE from a DLL it loaded, if you put the symbols in, than if you loaded an EXE from another EXE.
But I also suspect there are going to be some bare-bones OSes whose loaders won't do this (while still supporting dynamic library loading). I can't for sure name them offhand, but Haiku might be one.
 
@HostileFork maybe then we can put that off until somebody from Haiku shows up and screams that it doesn't work? :-)
 
@ShixinZeng Well, so far I'm probably the only person building for it. :-) But I've considered it to be one of the good dependency control baselines.
As I said, I think the feature of building extensions into the EXE is desirable anyway
So just in the extension list you say "don't build at all", "build into the EXE", "build dynamic". And I'm okay for now if some platforms require "build into the EXE" if you're going to use it.
No worse off than we were, right?
 
Absolutely not, says who has spent last couple of years working on R3. :P
 
9:27 PM
But factoring things out into extensions will be very good for @giuliolunati and the emscripten build, because a lot of things are not needed (JPEG loader? :-/)
 
True
 
@HostileFork Thank you for that, it works. https works.
 
@Brett Ta da
(Note that several of those issues would have arisen building R3-Alpha as well with newer compilers.)
 
I take it from your comments that it is getting a bit fragile to keep some of these older things going.
 
Yes, but it's always been fragile to keep old things going, in the sense of cross-compiling binaries to ship off to older systems.
Building for old systems on old systems is a different thing, and easier to keep working indefinitely.
 
9:44 PM
Well, thanks for all the time you put it into it.
 
Didn't take too long. :-)
And you deserve some custom support for your contributions...
 
Not sure how long it would be fair to milk those ;-)
 
@Brett So thinking point to break a gordian knot, from before: what if you could only use GROUP! in a GET-PATH! and SET-PATH!, but not a PATH!?
You could still use EVAL to call a function that way. e.g. eval :append/(quote 'only) blk data. But the reason this helps things is that it means on a per-value basis, it's possible to "sniff" and know whether that singular value represents a function call or not...without a side-effect happening during that test.
And in that case, :append/(quote 'only) does not represent a function call; it never will, so you don't have to evaluate the group to know that.
 
@HostileFork I'm not sure I've even got a script with a group in a path like that (learnt that one very late). I don't see an problem with that. I guess you lose the ability to have an earlier group in a path set a variable that might be used later in the path, and I'm not sure that's a deal breaker. If that was important one would probably code up a different solution anyway.
 
10:00 PM
@Brett You should still be able to have earlier groups in GET-PATH! set a variable that might be used later in that GET-PATH!, and outside of function calls GET-PATH! acts the same as PATH!...modulo the treatment of voids.
But this motivated my suggestion above that @word might have evaluator behavior of being a void-tolerant or void-intolerant variant of :word, then making @some/path for the same distinction.
People wanted @word anyway
We might even go with that for assignments too. word@ 10 => I guarantee there's a value here, error on word@ ()
(if this seems to conflict with email addresses, I'll point out the a:b (url!) and a: b (set-word! word!) thing.)
 
I missed the @word word@ discussion.
word@ does what?
 
word@ would SET but reject void assignment. @word would GET but consider unset (void) an error.
I've been worried about the dual application of :word to mean "suppress function call" as well as "this may be unset" for a while. And I'm now proposing another mechanic... "I want to evaluate paths in this".
But "I want to evaluate paths in this" ties into "suppress function call", for the reason of "you're not allowed to have a single item either be a function call or not based on evaluation because it impedes the evaluator's lookahead and quoting prioritization, which has to be non-intrusive and no side effects"
 
Deep (for me) :-)
My initial reaction is one of caution to introduce a word@ form but I'm thinking on it.
Actually no reason for caution, scrub that.
I wonder if a word@ would become the predominant form.
 
Well historical GET required /ANY to accept voids, and SET required /ANY to accept voids...while historical :word worked on voids, and historical word: did not.
Ren-C shifted word: to be consistent with :word but left GET and SET as is.
It might be more consistent to make word: and :word be consistent with GET and SET and not allow :word to work with unset words, then have @word and word@ be the void tolerant forms.
 
yes.
@ is a funny one, my associations with it wouldn't straight away make me think of setting and getting a word
but then again :word is learnt anyway
word: is fairly natural
[just some side rambling]
 
10:17 PM
set/any 'word do [code]
word@ do [code]
get/any 'word
@word
opt-word! wouldn't be the worst name if there weren't a set form. :-/
 
So how does it work with url! ?
 
How does it need to work with URL?
 
email@ brett@example.com
 
As I noted EMAIL! would be no different than : in URL!. a:b vs a :b and a: b
 
email: brett@example.com ; would be the one you'd use if you had a literal email
nevermind just wondered.
 
10:23 PM
Assuming we go with the non-void tolerance for email: it makes sense
 
Yes.
 
Names...?
opt-set-word!, opt-get-word!, opt-get-path!, opt-set-path!?
set-opt-word!, get-opt-word!, get-opt-path!, set-opt-path!?
Others...?
Remembering that this would probably be applied to @( ), ( )@, @[ ], [ ]@.
 
No other suggestion there. the @form would only be valid in the first position of a path?
or last?
 
I assume the rules would just be made to match however : works.
:foo/:bar is today a valid get-path!
foo/:bar: is today a valid set-path!
I assume @foo/:bar and @foo/@bar and other variants would similarly be legal
 
but they allow a void which is not going to be valid for selecting based on a void
 
10:29 PM
Assuming any of this is a good idea. I just am increasingly feeling that the chance for error based on people using a tolerant GET is becoming high.
@Brett Ah, reasonable point.
But that doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to build such paths.
Dialects may not be doing path evaluation.
 
oh yeah.
:-)
 
Similarly, GROUP! will still be legal in PATH! in general
You can make them, you just won't be able to get the evaluator to process them (directly, perhaps GET of a path with groups in it should act as a GET-PATH!)
Though I still feel having get path do random things like printing is a bit sketchy.
My thought was you'd have to use REDUCE for that.
 
@HostileFork You mean get path should prevent side effects?
 
It seems to me like that would be the sanest option.
You should be able to do it somehow, whether via GET/EVAL or REDUCE or whatever, but I don't think a plain GET should have side effects.
 
Interesting
One thing about path is that it is an any-block!, but we don't have a function that can process the items of a block! as if they were items of a path.
a/b/c
process-path [a b c]
 
10:37 PM
Well, there's reduce as path! [a b c]
Slightly cheaper than reduce to path! [a b c] due to not making a copy.
I have proposed that PICK be the piecewise path operator
(pick (pick a 'b) 'c)
 
makes sense
 
But the problem with piecewise path processing isn't path getting, it's path setting.
 
poke would be a bit confused
 
With a/b: c, what is it that (pick a 'b) can return that makes it a sink for the data value of c?
You'd need a REFERENCE! type
Not to mention that not all path evaluations today produce valid sets; some don't intend to evaluate to references, they evaluate to a synthesized result.
So (set (pick a 'b) 'c) would be a trick.
Anyway, Rebol is the running with scissors of language design. Everyone tells you not to do it, but then it's so much fun...
 
Hehe
 
10:49 PM
I think that the groups only in get-path! and set-path! will resolve some previous badness
However, being able to make eval :append/(quote 'only) ... work requires a feature we don't have yet... "refined functions"
But I said ado: :append/dup/only should work, so...
 
dealing with the refinement arguments could be fun
 
@Brett Anyway, think about it...and file more bug reports from what you find in the NAS scripting. I'm off for a bit...
 
@HostileFork ttyl
 
@ShixinZeng The reason this is happening is because the PROTECT command goes through and adds TYPESET_FLAG_PROTECTED onto every individual key in an object. The granularity of protection is per-key and per-object. So you could protect an object (implicitly protecting all its keys) and then unprotect all its keys, leaving only the appending and such disabled.
 
11:20 PM
posted on January 23, 2017 by giuliolunati

f : func [:look [block! <...>]] [ apply 'f [look: make varargs! take look] ] f [x] SER_AT_RAW asked 1 on width=255 Kind=38 f: func [:look [block! <...>]] [ apply 'f [look: make varargs! take look] ] g: func [x] [f [x]] g 1 Relative item used with SPECIFIED Kind=4 f: func [:look [block! <...>]] [ first look apply 'f [look: make varargs! take look] ] g: func [x] [f [x]] g

 

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