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12:05 AM
@GrahamChiu No one has been working on that. Would be nice, esp something that pulled daily builds...
 
12:35 AM
So, needs a server running with a binary with restricted permission?
Or a modified binary might be safer to remove read/write access to local, as well as a way to prevent sending email etc. And a way to kill if it becomes demonized
Has some progress been made on defining a security model?
 
1:02 AM
@GrahamChiu I personally think, esp. in the era of Android and such, that with so many language concerns trying to define security in the language is redundant, beyond the scope of the project, and likely to be gotten wrong.
 
so use linux to control the security then
Do we have a linux expert here?
 
I want to scrap the existing flawed security stuff, beyond the kinds of security that make sense in the language model (protected series. Etc)
I just scrapped TASK! so it may be a good time to scrap that stuff too. We have interesting features that actually work to focus on.
 
You got a place to stay? Or are you being a peripatetic programmer still?
 
Still sending PRs from undisclosed locations, for now.
@GrahamChiu I think I have, over time, settled on the idea that = and equal? are strict, that IS is a synonym for ~=, and that the way you get an English-speaking operation like SWITCH to use strict equality semantics is SWITCH/= specialized as SWITCH=. Thoughts?
 
My thoughts are being blocked by the Great Fire wall of China!
 
1:13 AM
Earl always said = being strict was the most didactically valuable, and principle of least surprise.
 
I like = and equal? to be strict
but it's a pain when working with UI since you have case issues
most data entry is not case dependent except passwords
 
I think IS has a good briefness to it, and it then goes with the idea that all the common letter-named things are non strict by default.
 
I'd like to see some localisation somewhere too
insisting on a european date format is a pain
In China it's yyyy-mm-dd, USA it's mm-dd-yyyy and elsewhere it's dd-mm-yyyy
 
Of course, the US version is the least coherent :)
 
 
2 hours later…
3:27 AM
>> error? try [load "12-30-2001"]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
Strangely satisfyingly, the US version is also the only one of those three date forms that Rebol does not understand.
 
 
1 hour later…
4:50 AM
#Macros support in Red: work in progress. ;-)
 
 
4 hours later…
8:24 AM
@ShixinZeng Good news: android-ndk-13 works. Bad news: another error:
Scanning dependencies of target libr3_core_core
[ 15%] Building C object CMakeFiles/libr3_core_core.dir/B/Prog/ren-c/src/core/a-constants.c.o
In file included from /B/Prog/ren-c/make/../src/include/sys-core.h:110:0,
from /B/Prog/ren-c/src/core/a-constants.c:35:
/B/Prog/ren-c/make/../src/include/sys-function.h: In function 'IS_FUNCTION_INTERPRETED':
/B/Prog/ren-c/make/../src/include/sys-function.h:195:36: error: 'Noop_Dispatcher' undeclared (first use in this function)
VAL_FUNC_DISPATCHER(v) == &Noop_Dispatcher
^-- commit dc06920b36873930adbbf63bf256eae8526a0244
 
8:44 AM
@Feeds Those tweets about Red remind me of a joke of a Dutch comedian about the village that got fast internet connection, it is still not known when they will be connected to the sewer.
2
In the meantime I'll just proceed making killer apps without basic functionality ;-)
 
 
1 hour later…
10:07 AM
@ShixinZeng @HostileFork Eureka! I cleaned all the thing and rebuild, and it works
One only bug: when I launch r3-core on the phone I get:
WARNING: linker: ./r3-core: unused DT entry: type 0x6ffffffe arg 0x148c
WARNING: linker: ./r3-core: unused DT entry: type 0x6fffffff arg 0x3
@ShixinZeng ^--- These DT entries are VERNEED and VERNEEDNUM -- how can I suppress them?
 
 
3 hours later…
1:12 PM
@giuliolunati I have no idea what they are :(
and I don't see them on my android
 
@ShixinZeng Maybe found solution...
 
Cool
 
1:51 PM
As my announces in AltME will not be reposted here by the bots:
Grand opening today:
http://redlanguageblog.blogspot.nl/
A new community driven BLOG about all and everything about the Red Programming Language.
Hope to welcome some nice blogarticles from the community members soon.
 
I confirm it works! :-)
Now I enjoy a tcc-enabled r3 android!
Thank you so much for your help!
3
 
2:16 PM
posted on October 21, 2016 by Arnold van Hofwegen

Grand opening today: http://redlanguageblog.blogspot.nl/ A new community driven BLOG about all and everything about the Red Programming Language.

 
2:28 PM
@giuliolunati great news. Let us know how you like/dislike user natives.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:28 PM
@ShixinZeng Sure! where I can find docs?
 
@giuliolunati Unfortunately, there isn't any doc
 
@giuliolunati the header files are fairly well commented, if you are looking for how to write natives the best way is to study common ones.
 
You have to look at fib.r and get familiar with writing natives for Ren-C
 
I will mention the semi obvious which is the internals of the interpreter are subject to change, even more than the user mode Rebol is.
So if code is important to you, make it public and make it part of a test, so it gets adapted to change.
 
 
2 hours later…
5:48 PM
@HostileFork what's your plan of integrating testing for optional features (like ffi, user natives)?
I have some tests for struct!, and wondering how to integrate them
 
6:25 PM
@ShixinZeng There is a notation for enabling tests with issues. It used to be used for differentiating Rebol2 and Rebol3 tests, before I deleted all the Rebol2 tests.
So I guess #ffi and #user-native or some such, would annotate those tests.
But hopefully be able to annotate the line of the include of the file, so #ffi %struct-test.r #ffi %routine-test.r and it would apply to all the tests in the file.
 
@HostileFork that sounds like a plan, even though we need the script to be able to know if ffi or user-native is available
 
Could extend the test framework somehow to supply a sensor routine that gives meaning to the #...
 
For FFI, we need to call functions from external libraries. What do you think about including some C sources specifically for this testing?
 
FFI is something that isn't very big on my personal radar. I think you should do what is best for you for your purposes.
I think the user natives are a more fruitful direction for likely many of the same needs.
It's very difficult to get the level of control you need for the lifetime of pointers etc. through the FFI; it's dodgy.
(Not particular to the Rebol FFI; all such bridges seem this way)
 
OK, the way I see FFI v.s. user natives is that: FFI is more for wrapping external functions, and doesn't require user to know the internal of interpreter; while "user-native" is for extending the interpreter, and requires user to know the internals.
 
6:41 PM
Right, but it's hard to fake things like pointers and memory buffers...and treat a BINARY! when you pass it as a pointer to a routine that holds onto that pointer, because the internals are relevant...GC, relocation of pointers on resizes, etc.
If the routine you are calling via FFI is very simple, and takes integers only, or something, then it can be made to work...but few interesting APIs are like that.
So the details of Rebol's implementation will have a tendency to bleed through anyway
So long as they're bleeding through, the user native gives you the control you need, and you can make a Rebol-ish interface that feels more natural.
 
Well, complex APIs can also work with FFI, I think I showed you the gtk-demos. :)
 
Yep, neat stuff, good to have examples. Just saying that for most things I would do, I would prefer user natives.
Even for something like the GTK interface
 
Understood. But for us (Atronix), that doesn't scale very well, because I am the only one who knows the internals, while we have few other engineers who can code in Rebol
 
But really, what we need is the user defined type story, being able to make objects that you set fields on and that is reflected somehow by dynamic code
 
With FFI, I can use my tool to generate a wrapper in just a few minutes, and then other engineers can start work with the functions from the library.
 
6:48 PM
Well, the main point was just that in the scheme of things I have to worry about, the FFI is not big on my radar; so I am not likely to have strong opinions on how it is done or tested...and the best thing you can do is figure out how to get it into the tests so that I will at least know if I break it and can look into why when it happens.
So far I have qsort.r and gtk.r and that's kind of what I test, when I think to test them.
 
OK
Do you usually build R3 with FFI?
 
I haven't lately. I did when I was messing with it.
But the mainline builds still build the FFI code, just with the stubs
Which helps keep it running
 
That doesn't help with the actual function testing
 
No, but it keeps it compiling, which would not be the case if it were just #ifdef'd out
 
True
Anyway, I'll get some testing integrated
 
6:52 PM
A friendly gesture from your neighborhood fork. :-)
We might do the same with TCC, actually
 
Yep. That's my plan
Let's see how far we can go
 
There are still big questions of the language itself to be answered; I feel like a lot of the loose screws were tightened, and that things like the void/unset! story or specific binding have gotten things in clearer shape. But somewhere in here, the object model and module system and user defined types have to be figured out.
It can't be put off forever
Well, technically, it can be put off forever. But it wouldn't be a very satisfying situation.
 
Agreed
But my first priority is keeping our current code running (faster if possible) :)
 
Well bear in mind what I said in that while Ren-C is a bit slower here and there when you look at the interpreter cycle level, it has a bigger force multiplier
So a CHAIN here and a SPECIALIZE there can do things that used to take more code
And refinement revocation can get rid of unnecessary switches or eithers
 
Haven't looked into CHAIN, could you explain why it would improve performance?
vs a user function chain?
 
7:07 PM
It could actually be a bit faster than it currently is. Perhaps a bad example, think ADAPT instead then.
In any case, if you have a specific performance issue, feel free to bring it up. I'm not opposed to having system ways of flagging functions with "I know X about this function, so I don't want to pay for Y".
I just want the default behavior to be correct and composable in the best form for the language.
The most obvious one there is bringing back dynamic binding if you ask for it
Which I could be okay with, if that's showing up on your performance radar.
 
I was actually thinking about dynamic binding by default, and specific binding when needed
 
Veto. :-)
It's very difficult, in composition situations, to realize when dynamic binding is biting you and that's what's happening.
And then difficult to know what to ask for or how to find it. This is what made CLOSURE so ugly.
Things seem like they're working...until you compose things in a way where it doesn't.
 
But I think most of the functions don't need specific binding
 
Functions that never have an opportunity to recurse--either directly or indirectly--do not need it.
Functions that directly recurse may or may not need it.
Functions that indirectly recurse, because they are tools like ANY or WHILE which may then have instances of themselves put into bodies supplied by users, almost certainly need it.
 
Mind giving an example?
 
7:17 PM
You have to think of a user-written ANY or WHILE, not the natives.
And think of the way that someone would write such a control construct, where they've got some arguments... one or more of which is some arbitrary code given by the user.
 
OK.
but what's the chance that a user need to write such a function?
 
The more sophisticated the user, high odds. But think about also how long people got by without definitional returns. People didn't write that many of their own looping constructs, and when they did, they didn't return out of them... or were willing to realize "that doesn't work"
 
If there is little chance for this case, doesn't it make sense to put the burden on these cases instead?
 
Not in my book, just as with the returns.
The language is very fluid; and if you want to make your own FUNCTION that is FUNCTION: :BROKEN-FUNCTION that is going to be allowed.
But I think the analogy with definitional returns is fitting.
People used a language under the false belief--in fact a false belief that people continued to think until shown otherwise recently--that they could write their own UNLESS and it would work just as well as a native. Then they see RETURN behaves differently in their UNLESS than in a native UNLESS.
And did people get by with it? Yes. Was it faster? Yes. What is even faster? Assembly.
There is no point in making a language under a premise of design-your-own-language where you bait people with the idea of making your own language features that match the power of the language designer itself if you're just giving people something that does not work.
 
Well, I am just thinking where the burden (adding non-default attributes) should be put.
 
7:25 PM
I'd be willing to say that you have to mark functions that are able to have recursive instances on the stack, but the rule would be that if it ever recursed directly or indirectly you'd get an error.
So, <recurse> could be the annotation.
And if you don't put it on, you can't recurse.
But it's very tail wagging the dog. You're one of few people caring about performance at this level, and I think there are better ways to get it.
So I'd rather we look at data, and then make decisions.
 
All right
 
One thing we might do is more user mode performance counter stuff, like have functions keep track of how many times they get called in some mode.
 
@HostileFork Glad you bring this up
I actually experimented with that
 
Right now there's a kind of useless "how many total functions are called" being tracked, and that's pretty worthless.
Would be better to enumerate and get a per-function count.
 
The problem I had was correlating the REBFUN with the source
 
7:31 PM
So REBSERs are now 8 platform pointers in size, and source code REBARR are not using LINK or MISC. I was thinking that could be used for file and line info of where they were loaded from.
Which may or may not be related, but that's something I thought should be done.
 
what about the functions generated on the fly?
 
Well, the best you can do is sort of chain things as "who was responsible" e.g. what REBARR was being run through Do_Core, and then point at that.
It needs experimentation. In any case, your problem is just printing out the table of functions because you don't know their names, right?
 
That's one of the problems
 
Well, what we can do is cache the symbol a function was last dispatched from.
 
If there are functions with same names (e.g. from different objects), how to distinguish them?
 
7:39 PM
Hm. Well, they'd still have different pointers. I guess the thing is, that if you get data and it looks like a smoking gun, you might want to manually instrument the code further.
Perhaps there needs to be a "name this function" instrumentation API
 
That API might be helpful
 
But either way, why don't we go ahead and get rid of that total function call count, and see if there's an inexpensive way to enable per-function counting.
 
We're really in need of this kind of profiling tool.
 
What's annoying is every little line in the evaluator adds overhead to each instruction, and that includes if (Trace_Level > 0) and such. In the Linux kernel they actually do have some fast-skipping no-ops that they punch over with the debug code when they need it.
Ok, well I'd use it too, so let's do it.
 
Great
 
7:46 PM
We'll start with the cached names and see how far that gets us
 
Sounds good
 
8:06 PM
Does rebol.net no longer have a wiki? rebol.com's r3 docs do a lot of pointing into it ...
 
@MarkI I think it's down and probably not coming back, but there are a couple of caches. @GrahamChiu had a scrape but it went on GitHub (which has been down for me today)
Since it was non-Rebol-based I imagine Carl has even less a stake in keeping it running than the rest of things.
 
@HostileFork github is back online for me
 
@HostileFork rebol.net is up, it just doesn't have a /wiki directory any more ...
 
@MarkI Right, well the /wiki was being served by MediaWiki, which is PHP, and like I said it's probably not deemed a priority to figure it out if anything goes wrong.
 
8:31 PM
@MarkI Graham's asciidoc cache: github.com/gchiu/rebol.net/tree/master/docs
@MarkI Chris's stuff which may overlap: github.com/revault/rebol-wiki/wiki
 
Chris's stuff used my raw data
Wtf, the ISP is inserting ads into my web pages
I was thinking of visiting doc's team in China while I'm here, but it's a 5 hour flight to Beijing from here, and not cheap. Bullet train would be even slower but just as pricey
 
@GrahamChiu They're not in Beijing anymore
@GrahamChiu They're in Xiamen
 
Yes, nearby though I thought?
 
@GrahamChiu 3 hour flight, 13 hour drive
 
Xiamen is a 5 hour drive away. So, not going to happen
Actually I just confused that with Xi'an. No idea how far away it is, and my brain is incapacitated by the loss of Google services
 
8:49 PM
@GrahamChiu Where are you?
 
I'm in Urumqi
 
@GrahamChiu Far. 6 hours by plane.
 
Eeks
Further then many parts of Australia from home
It's quite interesting to see micropayment in use here in China
The vendor opens their mobile with a bar code, and you scan it with your phone to transfer the payment across
So we paid for my wife's huawei p9 at a department store this way, and a tiny store where I bought some aquarium stuff
 
Not a big thing in the US, yet.
 
Actually these are more electronic wallets
Just means no EFTpos rentals
Every conceivable empty space has someone selling things
20 shops all next to each other selling the same plumbing supplies
I thought there was an apple wallet or something
 
8:59 PM
Perhaps you will notice the next big thing and be able to capitalize on it in NZ.
 
That would be metal detectors. They're everywhere
 
You could open 19 slightly different plumbing stores next to your downtown hardware store. :-)
 
Any reasonable size stores has metal detectors and x ray scanners
All subways that allows you to cross the road are protected by metal detectors, and security staff on all the exits
Same with all car parks
 
Well, there you go. If you want to be part of the future, get into security/scanning tech.
 
This is all a result of the Muslim violence that lead to bomb attacks on a early morning market here.
Concrete blocks guard all the major buildings
 
9:04 PM
I've noticed as I travel how frequently places will tell you what the WiFi password is, but not the precise network name.
 
The shoppers who died were elderly Chinese, and the vendors were Muslims
Bizarre
We've been eating mainly at muslim shops. These white looking guys speaking their highly accented Chinese
Is a bit of a cultural shock
 
A bit different from New Zealand, I would certainly think.
Well, get home in one piece.
 
I've seen a few mosques here, but they're no longer allowed to broadcast their calls for prayers
Pity really.
There are more Muslims here then in Syria
 
Wikipedia says 1-2% of the population.
 
I think 11 million in Xinjiang
The local Mandarin accent is affected by their Turkish dialect
 
9:12 PM
But the important question... how's the programming scene? :-)
 
It's quite hard for me to understand as it's not standard Mandarin pronunciation
Programming, no idea. I'm just being dragged from restaurant to restaurant
 
Seen anything weird, like old box sets of Turbo C for sale on the sidewalk, or what's in the bookstores?
 
Where we have to toast each other with 52% proof whisky
And I don't drink
 
But you did? :-)
 
You'd like it here!
 
9:14 PM
I have a hard enough time traveling in places where I speak the language.
 
A sip followed by a mouthful of tea each time
 
Even in Canada, sometimes I forget to say "eh" at the end of sentences.
 
Unlike NZ, there's no toleration for drinking and driving that I've seen
 
Well, hopefully you won't be taking your exception-making for drinking to suddenly start driving also.
 
People just say they're driving, and that's it. They're not expected to take part in all the toasting
There don't seem to be any road rules
 
9:18 PM
@GrahamChiu That is one thing at least that is better in China than in other parts of the world.
 
Ah, so you had no excuse. Now we see what happened.
 
People will walk across motorways
Or along them
Everyone jaywalks
Cameras are photographing every car every few 100 yards. The data collection costs must be huge
As you drive along, you see bright flashes from the overhead cameras
 
404 here at least
 
Heh
 
9:25 PM
No, I got it after you fixed the link
 
But did you get it with the original wording or rewritten?
 
Interesting idea. Be a good netizen and you'll be fine
That's what we need in NZ to curb the violence
Some parts of the city seem to be cyber punk already
@HostileFork how would I know?
I don't thing there's any social security here for the unemployed
So lots of people doing very menial jobs
 
@GrahamChiu Some would say you could start by serving the content over HTTPS, but that's a tip of an iceberg.
 
All https content out of China seems blocked
I have to activate a VPN to get to most https stuff
Except my bank
So there must be some white listing going on
 
Seems you've been in China for a little while now, when are you going back?
 
9:35 PM
Only 6 days
Coming back 5 November. Can't stay longer as to much work to do
The big worry for those of us who program, is whether we are actually willing participants in a new Manhattan project
Will China be the new norm
 
That's Facebook's new mission
 
Evolution in real-time.
Why wait millions of years for that which could be done tomorrow?
 
9:53 PM
He and Priscilla are donating billions
I guess it's called keeping up with the gates
Bookshops are only full of Chinese books
Some one needs to cure religion
 
@GrahamChiu I liked it better as "summertime needs to cure religion". There should be a "poetic auto-correct" site.
 
It's computer generated, not real
 
@GrahamChiu Well you should go to a programming Meetup while you are there. Tell people about Red, they're being conscientious about Chinese language support.
 
10:29 PM
So the Amiga was cooperative multitasking... ah, now it makes sense.
 

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