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1:11 AM
@HostileFork Agreed and understood, thanks. Unfortunately, you haven't answered my question.
 
7 hours ago, by MarkI
So how do I indicate "this branch makes changes I would like to publish, but in order for you to understand what those changes are, you have to diff it against this other branch I've also created."?
You don't, because you don't do that.
If commits depend on each other, they're on the same branch.
 
7 hours ago, by MarkI
Here is my problem: How do I publish code changes and styling changes so that it is obvious how to readably diff either one?
 
You don't, because you don't do that. If you want to restyle existing code on any significant scale, isolate the formatting change into a commit that only changes formatting. Then make your changes after that.
If you are rewriting and restyling code at the same time, just do it all at once.
 
@HostileFork That will make the latter diff dependant upon the first, whatever order I choose.
@HostileFork That will make separate diffs impossible.
I guess the problem has no solution.
 
Afraid I still don't understand what the problem is.
 
1:15 AM
Code diff. Style diff. Separate diffs. Clear?
 
Separate diff = Separate commit
 
Obviously ...
 
Commits depend on each other and that is a natural thing of one commit having another commit as a parent
 
7 hours ago, by MarkI
But I have also been told that every commit needs its own branch.
 
It is okay for you to have commits depend on each other and be in the same branch. If branches truly depend on each other, then the dependent branch should branch off the branch upon which it depends.
 
1:18 AM
What I think you are saying, and I trust you will correct me if I am wrong, is do one commit (style, I'd probably choose first), then do a second, separate commit on top of that (with code changes, if I chose style first). Both in the same branch.
 
If you feel it's truly important. There have been very few formatting-only commits, mostly by earl, labeled "whitespace police".
 
So if somebody wants to see the style changes by themselves, they diff the root with the first commit. And if they want the code changes by themselves, they diff the second commit with the first. Am I even close?
 
Few people want to see the styling changes. It would be more about not having to see them in the code changes.
 
@HostileFork I feel it is important that the diffs be readable. You were the one advocating for that!
 
And in general, we're not doing style changes en masse. If you touch the styling of a line above or below, or right in the region of a modification...it doesn't need a separate commit.
 
1:20 AM
@HostileFork Not even if it makes the diff harder to read?
 
My particular case of "readable" is that the indentation be coherent, not that it have a few more lines as "changed" that don't have real changes in them.
 
@HostileFork I refuse to change indentation without changing long lines. Am I being an idiot?
 
If you find code like:
i am a really long line that does not need to be touched by the commit etc.
some (code) {
    you are
    changing
}
You are free to mess with the code you are changing and the line above if you like, even in the same commit. Within reason. But we aren't going on codebase-wise restyling crusades just yet.
 
@HostileFork OK, so, change to tabs in code I change, leave spaces in code I don't touch?
 
Are you finding a lot of code that has spaces in it, that you didn't put in?
 
1:24 AM
@HostileFork Tons. It's an evil file. Many hands have played in it.
 
If l-scan.c isn't in tabbed format then converting it to tabs would be fine as a separate commit.
 
@HostileFork THANK YOU
Would you permit long lines to be changed in that same (space->tab) commit? That does mess with line numbers ...
 
@MarkI Sure, if it's a formatting-only commit that is all that really matters.
 
@HostileFork Awesome, appreciated, he said, eagerly returning to his task.
 
Sure but the key there is mentioning "there's lots of spaces in l-scan..." because most files (most) do not have them. Anyway, it feels kind of irritating to be tabbing them when we're just going to untab them later, but... whatever makes work easier.
 
1:30 AM
I could not see the forest for the trees, sorry for being a little cranky.
 
Lots to be cranky about with this codebase. Getting rid of the indents is probably something we should go ahead and do overall, I just want to keep things easy for integration in the interim and not make things any harder than they will naturally already be to bring things in from the other branches.
 
1:50 AM
Hopefully retabbing this one file, which really deserves it, can get checked in to master whether or not any of my code changes are accepted. I think it's not been touched by anyone else much.
You are welcome to chime in on this, @earl.
 
 
6 hours later…
7:41 AM
@pekr any idea how close we are to android red view?
 
8:10 AM
No idea, just a wild guess. Imo 0.6.0 to finish (according to the Trello state and the blog article, which takes Doc few days, is cca 2 weeks away). Then Android branch should come as a priority.
I asked Doc, if he would not do 0.6.2 first (Shadow Objects + Precompiled runtime) and the answer was negative, as it does not take some 3-5 days, hence the Android remains a priority ...
The bridge was in kind of good shape, but - Android branch was old. Hence it will have to be merged, adapted, maybe few changes to the bridge itself will come, and then the GUI, mostly a binding to Android GUI system. Hence I would not expect anything in under 2 months ...
 
@pekr What is a shadow object?
 
But that is just my guess. Maybe you could ask Doc directly via Gitter. Doc does not understand, why do I have to constantly serve as a bridge for Red related questions, if users can ask directly :-)
Some low level R/S stuff most probably. From the Treallo ticket: "Use shadow objects for Red/System compiler (speeds up words bindings lookup drastically, should improve compilation speed by 10-15%)"
 
Shadow Tables are objects in computer science used to improve the way machines, networks and programs handle information. More specifically, a shadow table is an object that is read and written by a processor and contains data similar to (in the same format as) its primary table, which is the table it's "shadowing". Shadow tables usually contain data that is relevant to the operation and maintenance of its primary table, but not within the subset of data required for the primary table to exist. Shadow tables are related to the data type "trails" in data storage systems. Trails are very similar...
Maybe that, there's some paper on shadow objects I don't know if it applies. <shrug>
I'm still wondering if return: is the best idea for specifying the return in a function spec. It is a set-word and will be gathered inside a nested function.
outer: function [return: [integer!]] [
    inner: function [return: [string!]] [
        ...
    ]
}
It doesn't particularly matter, as it will be a "local" anyway.
Just this idea of using a set-word for meaning things other than setting, when functions are blessing it as meaning that somewhat.
I also still don't like the idea of not being able to redefine how a return works, or how many arguments it takes, with one's own function generator. It seems there must be some sort of "teleport" abstraction to build return with, and maybe some way of defining an object local to a function that uses that teleport, that is more general.
No specific ideas, but I just think there's enough question over whether return should be arity 0 or 1 to suggest that baking in either decision, along with the word "return" itself, may be encroaching on the generality.
 
 
4 hours later…
11:52 AM
Rebol needs to parameterize what to return in the case of an error or halt, when used in a script. A general mechanism would have to be configured in code, but a command line option to say --halt-status=10 --error-status=20 or something like that would probably cover many needs, just to push those errors out of the way of your script's usual exiting response.
 
12:30 PM
@RebolBot
x: 0
while [either x = 0 [x: 1 continue] [false]] [
    print "Hello"
]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Hello
 
@redbot
x: 0
while [either x = 0 [x: 1 continue] [false]] [
    print "Hello"
]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
*** Throw error: no loop to continue
*** Where: while
*** Stack: do-console all not unset? set do first head reduce do* _execute if all not unset? set do first head reduce do* while
 
Should you be able to continue in a condition of a while loop? It seems to me that if you can, then it should start the evaluation of the condition over without running the body.
@redbot
x: 0
while [x = 0] [
    y: 0
    while [break] [print "does red see condition as scoped to outer loop?"]
    print "who gets broke?"
    x: 1
]
 
@HostileFork What are you trying to say?
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
 
12:35 PM
Hum, so the condition of the while is considered to have breaks apply to any containing whiles. That is probably the more "useful" behavior in a general purpose sense, as while you are iterating it gives you a place to communicate with loops above.
 
1:02 PM
Apparently the fact that CONTINUE and BREAK "acting on the while loop whose condition it is" was sort of the outcome of noticing it not working at all (as opposed to a conscious rejection of the alternative of it not being scoped to the body) #1519
 
 
3 hours later…
3:49 PM
posted on September 02, 2015 by hostilefork

As written currently, a WHILE loop will process breaks and continues that happen in its condition. One might disagree with how it handles them even so: x: 0 while [either x = 0 [x: 1 continue] [false]] [ print "Hello" ] That will print Hello, indicating that the CONTINUE did not jump to processing the beginning of the condition again. Instead it jumped to the body. But arguing o

posted on September 02, 2015 by qtxie

See tests/hello.red and system/tests/hello.reds for how to use it. Supported keys and value types: Key Value Type Icon: file! or Block of files Title: string! Author: string! Version: tuple! Rights: string! Company: string! Notes: string! Comments: string! Trademarks: string!

 
 
3 hours later…
7:14 PM
Erm, @HostileFork, would your Perl commit-hook allow lines beginning with tabs then followed by spaces?
It's only for some tables that are #ifdef'd out, but, if they're going to stay in the file, then ...
 
7:57 PM
Well, I've made a huge mess of things, it seems.
As part of my "fixes" I changed issues to be a proper word type.
Unfortunately, run-recover.r appears to require an issue #64bit which is invalid.
Am I screwed?
 
8:41 PM
Looks like there are tests in core-tests.r that assume #0 is a valid issue, and they are not flagged #r2only. I am screwed.
If issues are words, then #0 must be forbidden to be an issue, because 0 is not a word. Help!
 
8:54 PM
Seems to be a relic from allowing to-integer #FF == 255.
That should really be #xFF, if we allow it at all, IMO. to-hex and friends will need to change as well.
Thoughts, @pekr @rebolek?
>> set #0 7
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 7
 
Utter ridiculousness.
 
@MarkI Not only close, but absolutely spot on. If you have to do style changes, to them as separate commit(s) before the "meaty" commit of changed code. All on the same branch.
I say "commit(s)", because I like to separate style changes into a few categories, for even easier review. Pure whitespace policing (spaces -> tabs in Rebol's case, elimination of trailing whitespace, sometimes intra-expression whitespacing such as "a+b" -> "a + b") -- the aim of a whitespace policing commit is that when you switch Git's whitespace ignoring option on, you'll see no change at all. The Git option is typically -w or --ignore-all-space, i.e. git diff -w or git show -w.
On top of the whitespace policing, other style changes may be expression reflowing (to break long lines), typo fixes in comments, etc.
The approach I'd thus recommend is "one branch per topic (set of changes)", definitely not "one branch per commit".
@MarkI Generally, keeping such style changes somewhat local to your "meaty" changes makes a lot of sense (keeps review size down). But in this particular case, knowing the formatting mess in l-scan.c, I'd certainly be fine with reformatting all of l-scan.c in one commit and then proceed to work from that.
@MarkI Medium term goal, which seems to have arrived at quite some consensus is to relax word types to also be unrestricted strings in general, albeit requiring construction syntax or other escaping mechanisms syntactically.
Where that already the case (notwithstanding the question of it being feasible at all), issue being a proper word type would entail "64bit" being a valid spelling for an issue.
As such, if at all possible, I'd suggest as immediate approach, to not restrict issues as to be invalid when starting with a digit just like "other" word types would be. Not sure what else making issues a proper word type entails, but besides the starts-with-digit restriction, I'd off the cuff say the rest should be good.
@HostileFork I'm certainly fine with dropping the stars. Haven't yet formed much of an opinion about rest of the format ideas, per-occupied elsewhere. Gut feeling is that a full Rebol-like function definition would have its charms. But I can also see the troubles with the additional indendation that'd require. So maybe a more custom "dialect" along with a "trigger" lexical form is the better way to go.
 
9:37 PM
Generally, I'll be very much occupied elsewhere in the next 1-2 weeks. I very much appreciate being kept in the loop with @-pings and will try to check by as time permits.
 
10:02 PM
@earl It would be helpful if you could go ahead and get the console changes tied up; I have a number of other changes I need to make there...
@earl @MarkI I don't know how I feel about :0 being a valid word if 0 is not. But the benefit of ISSUE! being a word type may not have truly emerged. So that's to be considered as well.
One thing about issue being a string that eats everything after it (like % and http:// are seeking) though is to not play nicely in non-NewPaths, limiting dispatch options. foo/#bar/baz.
 
 
2 hours later…
11:48 PM
Mean bug caught, one of those "you only get the bug if you're running without the debugger" bugs.
(Add "non-reproducible" to that and you get an even harder bug to pin down, but fortunately this one was reproducible.)
 

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