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5:58 AM
Empirically: function calls are about 50% of word lookups
 
 
2 hours later…
7:40 AM
@MarkI Regarding the balance of readability and whole words vs. putting more on the screen, do you think all instances of REBVAL *value should be shortened to REBVAL *val? I guess I'm a bit ambivalent about it. But all I know is I'm tired of seeing it both ways. And it starts asking if it's going down the Hungarian Notation route of REBWRD *wrd vs. REBWRD *word.
The type appears once in the declaration, but then you have to read the code and if it's all wrd and val it starts a slippery slope toward unhappiness.
(Though I do have some things to say in the defense of Hungarian Notation...)
Sigh. Whenever I get tempted to put big warning labels on things like "Some of this may be wrong or become outdated as I learn more and/or the world changes" I am reminded of the fight people had when there was pressure for Wikipedia to put "WARNING: THIS CONTENT IS EDITED COLLABORATIVELY AND MAY NOT BE ACCURATE" on every page.
And people said "um, the warning label should be in your brain, not on every Wikipedia page... and actually, being collaboratively edited and peer reviewed makes it likely a lot BETTER than some fixed Internet page vs. worse". I think having a good "What is Wikipedia? How does it work? What is the editing process?" is a much better thing on every page.
@JacobGood1 @johnk @WiseGenius Additional survey on the balance of things today. 80-column source line limit: Draconian (and arbitrary) constraint or good thing?
 
7:57 AM
@HostileFork I think the burden of proof is on those who would argue it's a good thing.
 
@WiseGenius I argue that in GitHub code reviews, side-by-side kind of stuff, there is benefit. Basically it's a by-product of the limitations of tools. As I always say about text programming, for me it's a "when in text Rome (or text Latin-8?) do as the text Romans do."
I don't think text-based programming is a real viable way of doing things in the future, but if I'm going to be that critical I'll pick on other things that I think are kind of silly. Like two 5-fingered hands, breathing air, teeth, the DMV.
 
@HostileFork Which way do you see for the future?
 
@WiseGenius Oh, I don't know anymore. But this book is good. :-) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerando
 
8:38 AM
"With DocKimbel doing source drops every few months on a ever-slipping schedule, on a codebase that mostly is only him and Qtxie, which others cannot understand or be brought into the fold contributing to... he might as well just be dropping binaries like Carl did. It's the 2015 equivalent." @HostileFork - why anyone is entitled to have own opinion/point of view, here your claim is mostly a spreading FUD imo ....
If there would not be you, who actually would be contributing to R3 recently and over a long time, since the R3 was open-sourced? Red has 2 full-time developers, with at least some financial backing, and hopefully more will come ...
So, as for me, while your argument might be right in some aspects, it also imo missed on the correct context, in which we should judge/consider the situation ..
 
@pekr Well... then don't take the line out of context. In context, I am saying why I think it is necessary for there to be a very coherent assessment and understanding of the landscape.
If we are to speak in extremes there is one extreme in software missions; what one might call the "vanity project"
And in a vanity project, you define your mission mostly as solving a problem of interest to yourself; with little care to whether it really resonates or can impact others. You tend to not attract involvement of other developers. You tend to shut out dissenting viewpoints.
Yet in the end, a vanity project is not necessarily a bad thing. It can be seen as an artistic statement. Most great art that people bother to talk about would be considered a "vanity project" if judged under the standards of engineering and infrastructure development.
My "the bar has risen" was derided. My stress of the need to think harder; that when computing has changed by decades you might be off message by writing an even buggier Rebol.
But DocKimbel may consider it a motivation, or a battle cry. I remember when Marc Andreesen made a lot of Microsoft programmers really, really mad with something like "History will one day just remember Windows as a poorly-debugged set of device drivers for running Netscape", or similar.
I couldn't convince him as an ally. So perhaps I'll have better luck as a competitor.
 
9:32 AM
Something makes me unhappy about foo/:bar:. I mean obviously it's a bit frustrating as a notation. I'm just wondering if it's so frustrating as to be questioned heavily as even being legal.
From Red blog:
table: system/locale/collation/lower-to-upper
foreach [lower upper] "àAéEèEêEôOûUùUîIçC" [table/:lower: upper]
Doesn't scan right.
table: system/locale/collation/lower-to-upper
foreach [lower upper] "àAéEèEêEôOûUùUîIçC" [table/(lower): upper]
Not so bad.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:00 AM
@pekr So you don't think the thing I mentioned about the Sonny/Red Internet Archive is at least a little weird?
I'll call it weird, and stand by it.
 
I don't undrestand much, what's the question. At one point, Qtxie decided to choose more EU/US name. Chines do it, I cooperate with few companies there ...
I don't like Sonny much, as it reminds me of a robot from the I, Robot movie :-)
 
@pekr "Can a robot paint a masterpiece, can a robot write a symphony..??!" -> "Can you?" :-)
 
Sonny's name is Qingtian, or something like that, not sure if Xie is an abbreviation ....
 
That interrogation moment where Will Smith was going on about what robots could and couldn't do, it was the best response. Best moment of the movie for me.
The rest... yeah, boring movie.
The weirdness of course is just a 2008 article, catalogued by an institution-not-me so you don't have to just take my word for it: web.archive.org/web/20121010050144/http://hostilefork.com/2008/…
I post an article about Rebol. Didn't really have much of a website back then, just wrote something random... and quoted another website to make an analogy.
Just sayin'. Weird.
Why in 2008 did I quote a segment that named two characters "Sonny" and "Red"; not even a random script with two characters named Sonny and Red. very specifically... in a discussion about Rebol... two characters named in a blog in 2008.
That's a high degree of intersectionality of factors.
"What are the odds?"
 
11:26 AM
Will be interesting if Gitter catches on: gitter.im/red/red
Doesn't seem to be open source (?) but at least you don't have to reverse engineer it to interface: github.com/gitterHQ/services
I'm still getting tired of this push and pull balance of which new closed source random entity you're going to trust for all eternity with your contact points. If I wanted to watch the wheels of evolution turn tirelessly and without soul or spirit, I'd just stick a camera in the ocean and watch that.
Maybe my standards are too high.
 
 
10 hours later…
9:53 PM
@red_lang Suddenly you're a fan of JavaScript(!!) and @BrendanEich? If you love him so much why don't you marry him? Oops. #marriageequality
@iArnold There you go. DocKimbel's response to me sending the video data and subtitles was just to wipe out What is Red and all my work, so, y'know... whatever.
@AlexanderGuo Sorry to have you show up in a "personal laundry" moment that is interesting only in a "way you look at a car wreck" kind of sense. Ignore it. What's up?
 
@HostileFork lol hi
nothing much really
I kinda ditched Rebol for what I was trying to do
Just using Python now
 
@AlexanderGuo I don't really understand why Python is interesting, despite the fact that it has a strong following as the "interpreted language of choice" for binding among C++'ers
 
@HostileFork Python isn't that interesting. Just need to get something done
 
Well that seems to be the Python pitch.
 
@HostileFork had been snooping around Prolog articles and such. Prolog is pretty funky
 
10:08 PM
it is a pretty good pitch
 
"We document things, we don't move too fast, we don't let weird ideas go to our heads, we want to get things done predictably." The Django/Rails argument.
For those unaware, hostilefork.com still runs a little trivial Django URL dispatcher to the mostly-static content.
 
@HostileFork LOL, Note Although I've gotten increasingly good at JavaScript to write things like Black Highlighter, I really don't find JavaScript appealing. (The language was admittedly designed in 10 days, and it sure shows!)
 
@AlexanderGuo A language I hope history forgets.
 
lol why?
 
@AlexanderGuo Well, I hope it remembers as an example of what not to do.
 
10:14 PM
@HostileFork you've got to admit that JS has a tremendous amount of momentum behind it
 
@AlexanderGuo Pollution, myopia, ignorance, entropy... those are all fairly popular as well. I guess you should buy stock in them.
I mean, if I could cash in on that big garbage patch in the ocean, wow.
The Great Pacific garbage patch, also described as the Pacific trash vortex, is a gyre of marine debris particles in the central North Pacific Ocean located roughly between 135°W to 155°W and 35°N and 42°N. The patch extends over an indeterminate area, with estimates ranging very widely depending on the degree of plastic concentration used to define the affected area. The patch is characterized by exceptionally high relative concentrations of pelagic plastics, chemical sludge and other debris that have been trapped by the currents of the North Pacific Gyre. Despite its enormous size and density...
I'd be a wealthy, wealthy individual indeed.
 
@HostileFork oh dear gawd, is that thing really true?
 
@AlexanderGuo Get a boat, go check. I haven't taken a boat there, so all my information is secondhand. Could be made up.
 
@HostileFork Hm, well that's said
*sad
@HostileFork ever looked at ReactJS?
 
@AlexanderGuo Hopefully not, but I read a lot of stuff.
 
10:21 PM
@HostileFork lol geezus, you think JS is that bad?
 
@AlexanderGuo Well, it's a matter of time and perspective. You have to consider what I grew up programming on, like Commodore BASIC and 6502 machine code... blog.hostilefork.com/machine-language-commodore-64-128
It's not that JavaScript is all that bad, so much as it's not good enough considering the hopes one might have considering advancements in other areas.
 
@HostileFork so your opinion is formed from decades of languages growing and dying. Hence your great pessimism and apathy, a la Agent K in "Men in Black"
i.e. like that old dude in Men in Black
 
And of course, even the name is deceptive; nothing to do with Java, and actually when people talk they should be saying ECMAScript, but that doesn't flow off the fingers so well in typing... and in terms of me being old, I still think Sun and Java was a massive marketing hype machine recycling old concepts and lying through their teeth to save themselves. To be fair, I worked for a totally corrupt organization called Microsoft that hopefully has stopped being evil.
 
@HostileFork don't take this the wrong way, but how old are you? :)
 
@AlexanderGuo Totally old.
I don't just get discounts at Denny's, when I show up they evacuate the place and I have to cook all the food myself.
 
10:27 PM
@HostileFork hm, definitely younger than Bill Gates though, if you were programming BASIC as a 7 year old
that means, roughly 12-13 yrs younger than Bill Gates
 
@AlexanderGuo I'm 40.
 
@HostileFork I was about to guess 46
lol
46 as the upper limit
 
I can safely say that I am now the oldest I've ever been.
 
@HostileFork well, that makes you exactly twice my age
 
@AlexanderGuo Well we'd need more precise timing to say exactly.
 
10:30 PM
@HostileFork +/- 1 yr
 
Then all the business with leap-seconds.
 
@HostileFork heh well shit
 
@AlexanderGuo Do you know C?
 
@HostileFork heh, yes. I wrote an OS in C. That was a class project I did .... actually, the last Fall semester in 2014. Then I graduated
@HostileFork speaking of C, I was reading up on the history of C, as described by Dennis Ritchie. Simply fascinating
 
@AlexanderGuo Graduated at 20? Like me? :-) Did college in 3 yrs?
 
10:32 PM
@HostileFork yep, graduated at 20. Finished in 3.5 years, but finished HS in 3 years
@HostileFork so why'd you ask whether I knew C?
 
@AlexanderGuo Well, we're talking about the past and it's kind of funny to think about me being all smart and having hair on my head and graduating with highest honors. Good times, good times. And I also programmed in C unsigned long long ago. But Rebol is written in C, and I was going to fill you in on some of the news.
The news is easier to understand if you program in C.
 
I program in C++ for my day job, but continue
 
Well perhaps a question is better than a lecture. What's the difference to you between C and C++?
 
uh, gawd, there's a lot of differences
C++ is designed to have everything that C has, but a lot more
it started with C, but added more
a lot more features
namespaces
classes
inheritance
templates
also:
 
I ran this group, hosted Bjarne Stroustrup for a talk: meetup.com/The-Austin-C-C-Meetup-Group/events/77907002
 
10:41 PM
ridiculously long compile times, apparently
@HostileFork you're not actually a C++ fan, are you?
 
@AlexanderGuo BTW, look at this: blog.hostilefork.com/locality-locality-locality
@AlexanderGuo ^---
 
@HostileFork Interesting writeup. I had myself guessed that "N" would have to be extremely large in order for lists to win
b/c of the underlying architecture
you know, caches and all that
i was surprised to see that lists never win
 
Well, this is all about what happens with abstraction.
 
Anyway, Rebol is written in C.
 
10:46 PM
so you know C++ really well. There's this one guy I know who thinks C++ is better than any other languages, particularly Java and Python
he rewrote Zookeeper and Cassandra
and he's doing his own distributed systems company
 
@AlexanderGuo Does he know Haskell?
 
@HostileFork uh.......I seriously doubt it. He just knows C++ really really really well
as you can tell simply from the fact that he just decides to rewrite several large open source components
I don't "know" him. He's just a legend at the company I work for.
He co-founded Nutanix in 2009. Kicked out in 2012. Then he founded his own company Cohesity. Mohit Aron, if you're interested
 
C++ is a really tight set of formal compromises built by the collective knowledge of a ton of invested people; it walks a line between the metal of the machine and the ability of a compiler to have your back... but it doesn't challenge the fundamental idea of "under an imperative model, can the compiler truly have your back, or is there something wrong with trying to model systems imperatively"
@AlexanderGuo I'll remember the name if it comes up again, but won't research it unless he writes me. :-)
The C of today is quite different from "the C of my childhood", and a lot of that is about standards process and the great vetting process of the Internet.
 
So your point here is that it's just hard to write software without understanding what the processor is doing? i.e. with the linked lists vs vector
 
@AlexanderGuo Well just saying abstraction has weird shapes. Your intuition starts to fail.
Many of the older programmers you meet--people like me who lived in an era where chips just "were"--no cache, just... instructions...
Are a little bit like the people who worked on the old classic cars, when you could just pull parts out and put another one on and modify it yourself.
Economies of scale mean more compression; they put the "graphics card" in the chip.
Then L1 cache, then L2 cache, then your hard drive has a little SSD in it for the near term memory and magnetic storage for the long-term memory...
 
10:54 PM
right
 
It gets to a point where you're not in control.
 
but the guy who did the hardware is getting more control?
 
And if you're the kind of person who wants to buy an iThing, you're probably the kind of person who'd buy a car with the hood sealed shut with a giant "if you open this hood we'll sue you"... and you will ride around in that car and hope it's all in your best interest.
Anyway, Rebol and its demands to stay close to the metal are a piece of the message. It's not about C vs C++ as opposed to the size of a C++ compiler
 
Hm, you really can't do L1, L2 caches, etc in the software, can you.......
well, it seems that C++ compiler generates enormous binaries
 
No. Though I haven't checked lately if anyone implemented what I wanted, which is a "fetch but don't cache" instruction... for hitting hash tables or something. When you know there is no significance to the fetch being hit again later.
I'm sure some processor has that
Anyway, I'm not really a C programmer, and every time I learn about a C/C++ distinction it is a kind of subtle delve into something I might have happily lived without ever knowing.
 
11:02 PM
@HostileFork earlier, why'd you ask whether Mohit Aron knew Haskell? I personally haven't looked at Haskell all too much
 
@AlexanderGuo Most of the C++ people I know who decided they were going to jump on something new have gone to Haskell, realizing that imperative programming has a fundamental flaw.
 
oh wow
but I haven't heard of too many commercial applications of Haskell
 
You should at least learn a little Haskell, it's way more accessible today than it was when I was stubborn and wouldn't learn 10+ years ago. learnyouahaskell.com
 
@HostileFork I've heard that Haskell is basically just the ginormous type system, along with monads
 
@AlexanderGuo Well it's not that Haskell is uniquely that great, I guess, but it's the only pure functional language I have bothered to look through. So consider it my macro for "enough people are throwing themselves into functional programming to make it do a few things". There are Haskell jobs. Facebook notably has a Haskell subgroup. So it's... part Haskell, part PHP. An unholy union.
 
11:08 PM
@HostileFork not on the scale as a similarly exotic language like Erlang :P
 
Erlang is another one of those "I read it and try it but haven't used it". Rebol defectors keep talking about Clojure too, and I work the tutorials and go "hm, ok, nice" but I still sort of want to finish another train of thought.
 
yeah same here with Erlang
haven't really used it in any serious project, although I've read a bunch of papers about it
some really interesting ideas coming from Joe Armstrong
 
@AlexanderGuo It came from telecom, and the needs in that area. To the extent I solve more problems than I create, few of the solutions I provide have to scale globally. The needs define the language.
Historical Rebol is very "hold it in your hand". It's you and the machine, you with scripty-problems. Rebol feels good for that.
 
@HostileFork Rebol today didn't feel very close to the machine. Certainly not nearly as close as C
 
I've been patching up the missing features and stopping the bleeding/crashing/undefined-behavior.
 
11:16 PM
in rebol3?
 
Yeah, I decided I'd just do it. I said I wouldn't, I promised myself I wouldn't.
 
0
Q: Build prep error on Debian 8

kjanz1899When I try to run build prep on 64-bit Debian the build fails with the error message Compressed 11626 to 3357 bytes: 28 percent of original ./r3-make -qs ../src/tools/make-os-ext.r # ok, but not always --- Make OS Ext Lib --- Version: 0 ** Script error: invalid argument: %../os/none ** Where: c...

 
Fixing code dumps on the internet is not a good way to spend time. Why not finish TextMate 3 while I'm at it?
 
lolo
I've thought about the need for different languages, and I think it has a lot to do with the runtimes they're tied to
It's just very hard to mix runtimes together using one languages
the best you can do is simply having familiar syntax across the different runtimes
that's sort of the conclusion I've come to at this point
each runtime has its own dialect -- similar to rebol's philosophy in some sense. Except dialecting in rebol doesn't mean you get a different runtime
 
@AlexanderGuo I feel a blog post coming... I actually thought of the "perfect language" thing you were saying the other day in the car, and I get bored and talk to myself and try to address the question because driving is boring.
 
11:20 PM
@HostileFork lol that blog post should be interesting
 
@AlexanderGuo I actually started that sentence suggesting you write the blog post, but I can see how you would read it that I was going to write one. :-)
 
@HostileFork heh, maybe I should
eh, bloggin
I du nno
 
@AlexanderGuo That's so... 2000's. The future is flutter. youtube.com/watch?v=BeLZCy-_m3s
 
@HostileFork lol
@HostileFork earlier you were talking about the hardware's caches, etc. There's a branch of CS that helps reasoning with that. Here are a couple slides/readings from a class I took at CMU: cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/pscico-guyb/realworld/www/…
so not all hope is lost when trying to reason abstractly about the processor :)
 
@AlexanderGuo I've been doing some callgrind/cachegrind... you use those? Thing is, they're simulators. Slow, too. But you can get a rough understanding.
It turns out that most of the time, the model is "kind of similar" to how processors of today still work.
 
11:29 PM
@HostileFork haven't used them before. Are they worth trying out for large programs? I currently maintain a program that's 35k of C+
C++
 
@AlexanderGuo Valgrind-y things in general? Absolutely worth the price of admission. Do it. Now. Though if your code is CPU-intensive look into Address Sanitizer. Valgrind can check code without being compiled to support it (emulates), address sanitizer requires you to link it in.
As for the cachegrind/callgrind, I don't know what the state of the art in performance profiling is, but KCacheGrind is a nice viewer for the output of callgrind. Easy to read, you can poke through the assembly, draws spatial pictures to visualize how much time function calls consume...
 
@HostileFork oh wait, callgrind/cachegrind is just part of valgrind? I've used valgrind before
just haven't used valgrind at my job yet. I should look into it
 
@AlexanderGuo "Valgrind" is oft-confused with the "memcheck" --tool setting, because it's the default.
There are other --tool(s)
 
that's true. Just used valgrind for memleaks
btw, so many people don't like C++
I've heard that even at Google, more people don't like C++ than like it
 
@AlexanderGuo Automate 'em. Valgrind works in automation scenarios, have every commit say "you just introduced a new leak, we aren't taking the commit"
 
11:38 PM
@HostileFork I was wondering why you decided to develop such enormous expertise in C++. Valgrind is probably the first thing I'll do tomorrow once I get into work
 
@AlexanderGuo I've heard that at Google... if you don't wear clothes that are primary colors and sit in the cafeterias in plastic primary colored chairs that were taken straight out of kindergarten... you won't be very successful. Because Google is a perfect and pure overlord: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_bus_protests
 
ok not just at Google, but many others as well
several of the people in "Coders At Work"
online forums
C++'s just really verbose sometimes, isn't it?
 
@AlexanderGuo Well, one has to do something with one's time. I think that it's generational; I'm one of the people who grew up with weird old stuff that kids today won't see or experience.
 
hm ok
 
It was a very tactile thing. It sticks in the memory. Little promises of power to those who had them, a mystery box that would turn you from someone who just played the video games to someone who might write them.
And they cost money, and you had to fight to get them, or steal them.
 
11:45 PM
yeah, IDEs..........
I don't use those
at this point, I've written enough of my own tools to sort of basically have my own IDE
which I humbly think is much better than many other IDEs out there :)
 
There was a command line compiler, and in fact I used something called Multi-Edit.
Which was really slick for its time, IMO.
 
yeah...Multi-Edit
what is that
hm
 
There's no way you're going to find a YouTube video or anything about that
It's too old
 
haha, let me try
yeah, all the multi-edits I see in Youtube's results are just way too shiny
can't possibly be right
 
keyword DOS, keyword... um... jeez. I can't think of how the heck you could find it
But it was a DOS-based editor that did the moral equivalent of memory mapping into your file; it could edit arbitrarily giant files
It wouldn't load it all into memory at once, and in those days, that was "strange"
 
11:48 PM
lol
yeah, apparently C-style pointer arrays was strange too
 
How many files did I actually edit which exceeded physical memory? Vs. just doing it to see if it could? Probably zero.
 
man I fucking love history
 
Still, sometimes it's the principle of the thing, y'know?
 
You ever done stuff with MMFs?
 
11:50 PM
don't even know what MMF stands for
ah
yeah, nope
that would've been fun to do in the OS class I took
oh, mmap is the API to do this?
 
Well these days you let the OS take care of it
 
yeah, I thought the OS would be doing this for you
 
It's an API, but depends on platform.
You can do interesting things, in terms of asking it to map a file and then you can trap exceptions on writes and keep track of modified pages... you're faking loading the whole thing into memory, but if you write all the pages and don't commit... er, you have to have memory backing the touched pages somewhere.
Anyway, you can get exception handling when there's a write into a page that hasn't been mapped
Point being, this stuff didn't always exist at the OS level
 
right
sounded like that would take quite a bit of time to debug
so in some sense, programming has gotten easier to do today. A lot easier
 
And if you had a text editor that could load files bigger than your physical memory, you might find that trippy, if you were younger than you are and living in an era with clunky machines :-)
 
11:55 PM
I remember my OS prof saying that writing an OS today is much easier to do today than when he was an undergrad
lol
my OS prof said he used the language "Euler" to write his oS
nobody even knew what that was
 
I wrote 6502 machine language. With no assembler.
 
yeah, that shit's gonna get hard to maintain real fast
 
And thought "wow, I must be terrible. I worked really hard and my program does very little."
No one told me assemblers existed, or compilers.
 
LOL
you were 7
humph
 
I didn't program in machine language when I was 7.
 
11:57 PM
now that I think about it, my first PL was JS
 
That was years later, hum. How many.
 
my, how the time have changed, lol
I did JS in 6th grade
that would be 2006
 
Well this is all why I'm so often on the patrol on StackOverflow when people are being mean to kids.
Like the worst thing I can even imagine is the pointless turning away of curious kids who are at the firehose of information... because some old grump gets into button-pushy mode.
"Get lost, kid."
Many a fight I have had with soul-destroyers...
 

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