« first day (1617 days earlier)      last day (2163 days later) » 

12:32 AM
@HostileFork Wouldn't it have to take emulation or specialized hardware to do any better? Whatever "uninitialized" value you choose, valgrind can't say for sure it's uninitialized by looking at the value ...
 
@MarkI Well, once you use malloc instead of calloc... it arguably doesn't matter what you set REB_END to, value wise.
If you write a 0 or a 99 you still wrote, so valgrind considers it initialized.
 
@HostileFork There's no "I know what I'm doing, really mark this as uninitialized in your internal map please" in valgrind?
 
@MarkI "Really mark this as uninitialized" in valgrind is to not assign.
 
There probably shouldn't be, now that I think about it for like a microsecond.
 
Improving code, one SO at a time...
2
A: Choosing "a" or "an" before any digit beginning with 8

Alejandro DíazIf you want to handle all numbers starting with 8 something along the lines of this should do bool startsWithEight(int number){ while(number > 10){ number /= 10; } return number == 8; } Might not be the most efficient way.

Original. Let no one say I don't try to make the world a better place.
Anyway, Rebol used to use a calloc() equivalent for all allocations, and that hides bugs and costs.
Valgrind can best do its job when you don't zero-fill
 
12:44 AM
@HostileFork Zero-filling is a modern-day superstition. If you have to do that, your design is ignorant :)
 
@MarkI True dat.
Zero filling is ignorant.
 
How's the beast with no name, @HostileFork?
In case you haven't noticed yet, I am between cats.
Curling up in front of the fire with tinycc may be fun, but it's not quite the same without paw-prints.
 
@MarkI She is not dead. Still doing...cat things. Today she sat on the mouse and gave me a stare for a bit...couldn't have been comfortable. I think she deliberately wants to interfere with my work.
 
@HostileFork Hehe. Classic!
 
I haven't felt too inspired for photos, but y'know, she does weird stuff that could go viral but I'd have to use video
She eats cat food with her paw
Apparently this is not unique though
I hadn't seen it, but google/youtube and lots of cats do it
Still, she's a good looking cat and with the right keywords she could get picked up
 
12:53 AM
@HostileFork Reminds me of that bit in Lady of Mazes, you think something's unique but millions of other people have "discovered" the same thing.
@HostileFork Baby beauty contests ... cute animal contests ... I'm sure Rebol can help with all that! (Just probably without me).
 
1:15 AM
@HostileFork Any further thoughts on the syntax requirements for block! efficiency hints, @HostileFork?
 
1:46 AM
posted on April 05, 2015 by Kaj

I have upgraded Red on Try REBOL to version 0.5.2. (Red 0.5.1 was skipped because it was broken for Try REBOL.) http://try.rebol.nl

 
 
3 hours later…
5:09 AM
red> about
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Red 0.5.2
Platform: Linux

Copyright (c) 2011-2015 Nenad Rakocevic and contributors. All rights reserved.
Licensed under the Boost Software License, Version 1.0.
Copyright (c) 2011-2015 Kaj de Vos. All rights reserved.
Licensed under the BSD license.

Use LICENSE for full license text.
 
 
2 hours later…
6:45 AM
posted on April 05, 2015 by Bo

I've started working on a robotics kit with Owen, one of the ameriDroid interns. Basically, it is a walking Linux computer with a 320x240 display and four servos. Two of the servos are the hips and two servos are the ankles. I'd like to develop a dialect so people not familiar with Rebol can program the robot to do specific moves. I'm looking for input on how the finished dialect could work. He

 
 
1 hour later…
7:45 AM
Hm, so that's why he skipped 0.5.1
 
8:25 AM
>> print "Thanks @johnk!"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Thanks @johnk!
 
Our nice bot hasn't been getting much love in the development feature dept.
 
 
1 hour later…
9:52 AM
@earl Idea you will probably not like, inspired by Maxim's thought. What if #[true] (or whatever literal true) was equal? to true the word? :-/ Same for none and false. Strict comparisons would say no, but loosely speaking they'd be equivalent.
Is it seemingly reckless? Sure. But "Minus Four" is a bit reckless too, for the purposes of efficacy.
If 'integer! = type? 3, a "reckless" idea, why not 'none! = if 1 > 2 [print "not true"]
 
 
4 hours later…
1:37 PM
@HostileFork May I politely request a pointer to this thought by Maxim?
 
 
1 hour later…
 
5 hours later…
7:16 PM
It might seem like a bad idea to "canonize" some words like that, but the damage is already done in TO
>> to word! on
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
I'm going to re-plug my idea that DO MAKE ERROR! of a URL! be standardized and suggested.
 
7:33 PM
@HostileFork Fair enough, but it's the value (truly the truth value :) we want. The fact that it molds like a word needs ... rethinking, just like datatypes. We do need a syntactic form for them, but it shouldn't be a word. I like ## (none!) ##t ##f (logic!) and ##datatype, but I would also allow other aliases.
The fact that datatype! is a word (that starts) with value datatype! which is a datatype, is one of the few things I still remember being confused about when I was learning Rebol -- it was that confusing.
 
You never saw DocStd, which had a declaration for the idea of declaring things--itself a declaration. :-)
 
@HostileFork The what who where now?
 
@MarkI From Intentional Programming.
 
@HostileFork Yar, OK, so not yet then, sorry. Is there a short syntax example snippet you could post showing me this triple-self-declaration? I would, how can I say, dearly love to see such a thing.
 
@MarkI Oh, it just was simply a declaration no user could themselves create, it was a bootstrap entity. You could only make it within the boot process.
 
7:39 PM
Or is it not even printable ...
 
Yup, not printable. :-)
 
Dang :(
So you have no instant objection to the ## idea then @HostileFork?
 
@MarkI I believe with Plan Minus Four we can just go with # for literal none
I don't know that ##t or ##f are very appealing
 
@HostileFork But you acknowledge we still need a similar thing for logc! and datatype! right?
How about ##true and ##false?
And of course, you can't to word! them.
 
logic!<true> and logic!<false> may seem wordy but they fit in the system.
But with this compare hack, you would be able to use true and false more often
 
7:43 PM
@HostileFork So wordy as to be obviously inferior to the already-in-place #[true] I'd say.
The point is with ## is that it is syntax and not a keyword.
 
We need some good thinking on the JSON-style value analysis where we have an answer for [... @(key1: true key2: false) ...]
 
@HostileFork I have forgotten the question apparently :(
 
Wire format molding, are we going to ask people to do #[true] and #[false] or is there some other finesse?
 
We could even make them #T# and #F# or #TRUE# and #FALSE#, just thinking out loud.
Four being input forms, two being output forms.
Not really even then "better than JSON", it just replaces quotes with hashmarks, but ... there it is.
 
Well, let's just keep this open as we work on coming up with ideas that aren't abominations. :-)
 
7:48 PM
Personally I still favour ##, easier to type, and emphasizes Rebol's from-the-left "reading".
 
For a time I was suggesting the likes of #<set-word! with spaces>: - and that was the better proposal.
Which goes to show you that thinking for a while has benefits.
 
I'd be all for a proposal to be better than ##. But it's my top favourite so far :)
Also it overlaps nicely with issues being words, we want our syntax-instructions to be literate, after all!
 
Issues still seem very artificial to me, they're one of the least explicable types
 
##comment{inline comments!}
@HostileFork Also the oldest, and the one to get the biggest overhaul R2-R3, amongst other ... curiosities.
It was simply for expressing integers in hex at the beginning.
 
@MarkI So how goes TCC?
How many bytes is the TCC exe they distribute?
 
7:56 PM
@HostileFork It's about to become a grand-parent, I'll be bringing cigars to the room hopefully shortly.
@HostileFork 14848.
 
@MarkI That's small enough to include with Rebol to build itself
It would be possible to make it so the only dependency for building Rebol would be an R3
It sounds like a really interesting initiative to me
And it outputs debug symbols GDB can read?
@MarkI Were TCC built into Rebol, I bet some of that could be shaved off because Rebol already does some junk like command line processing, and there's probably some other shareable routines... it could get it down to 10K at least I imagine
 
8:41 PM
@HostileFork Hey, just do what I do, compile it with itself, shaves off half the bytes ...
Seriously, can I ask a dumb Q about tcmalloc? I vaguely remember you mentioning it briefly a while back.
So, it's cool, right, and it allows you to add malloc hooks via the magic crt-rewriting "__malloc_hook".
But when I try to figure out the details, I come across lines like this:
tcmalloc functionality is available on all systems we've tested; see
INSTALL for more details. See README_windows.txt for instructions on
using tcmalloc on Windows.
That's from gperftools at googlecode, if that's permalink enough.
 
@MarkI I'm new to it, all I know is what I've read. Claims are 30% speedup in various systems.
 
What if I said to you, "All of my code all works on all of the systems I've tested."
Would you trust me to write you some code?
 
@MarkI I'd suggest listing what those systems were.
 
@HostileFork Exactly. No trust until then, at minimum. I guess I'll get back to waiting ...
 
@MarkI Well, you can always file a bug report against TCmalloc documentation.
 
8:48 PM
Also, you might get a chuckle out of this, it says if you are linking to tcmalloc with gcc then you have to pass in three flags that turn off gcc's built-in malloc optimisations. Come on!
 
The main problem I have with Google in general (and also, StackExchange) is a lack of responsiveness.
 
Does valgrind work only with gcc @HostileFork?
 
@MarkI It's a Linux tool... what you compiled with doesn't matter.
 
@HostileFork Well, that screws us Windows losers then.
 
There are similar tools for windows, but I think most of the good ones co$t.
I am known for not being particularly diplomatic, at times, but neither is Linus:
Anyway... Windows... blah. I'd prefer not to think about it.
 
8:57 PM
@HostileFork You're dissing my efforts then?
And my comments about tcmalloc weren't Windows-specific, either.
 
@MarkI No, but I'm just saying that even if you don't want to a full-on installation, a VM can do well. I have a RAID0 SSD install with a quad core processor and it is very tidy about spinning VMs up and down, they run "fast enough".
 
@HostileFork Luxury indeed. Guess I'll wait until I have a 'Vette before thinking about driving then :)
 
@HostileFork That's what Corvette owners say, actually all car owners, so, bad example sorry.
 
(shrug) Well, sometimes you just need the right tools to do your job.
I do not personally think it is acceptable to be using a non-SSD as your primary disk anymore.
 
9:03 PM
@HostileFork And some people's job is ensuring simple tools will still work. Long story short, I know what I'm getting into, and yes, there will be drawbacks. But do they all have to stay drawbacks, forever? Not sure yet.
@HostileFork You haven't had the bug-riddled internal encryption fail on you yet? Just wait.
 
I don't encrypt anything.
Main drives read and write at 2x on 6G bus, splitting data on both drives. If either fails, all data is lost. This is mitigated by running RAID-1 backups watching and logging.
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for advanced technology, but in the computing business you have to draw the line somewhere or else there will always be something else to try out.
 
Nothing I'm doing is that sophisticated.
It's simple, it's effective, and it "just works"
I'm not hot-rodding anything.
Although I will point out a personal complaint, which is that overclocking has become "acceptable baseline standard". They ship factory units that need thermal paste and crazy heat dissipators, pushing the chips outside their operating limits. What was once considered "crazy" is now "we put it in a box and sell it".
@MarkI anyway I told you I'd ship you a spare drive if you want it. Use it for VMs. I have a USB3 enclosure too.
It's not doing anyone any good in the box it's in
 
It's not the disk space, it's not the cores, it's the complexity issue. How can I tell people it can be done if it can only be done on a VM?
@HostileFork I am thinking of ways it might be helpful, I am not spurning your suggestion, thanks again HF.
 
9:18 PM
@MarkI We live for a little while, influence for a bit, fight what battles we can. When you get time, watch this: The Coming War on General Computation
 
@HostileFork I'm a huge Cory Doctorow fan. Glad you are aware.
 
Cool guy.
 
9:33 PM
Anyways, back to the alloc-tools question, I was thinking:
Maybe the reason Rebol uses a customised implementation of malloc is just for that reason, that many of the platforms do not provide a good-enough malloc.
So we need to be bounds-checking that implementation internally to Rebol, rather than depending on third-party tools.
 
@MarkI I think it's okay to let the Amiga build be a bit slow.
Too much to roll into the system. It's a language, not an OS.
 
@HostileFork Slow, fine, dog-slow, not fine, exponentially dog-slow, unacceptable.
There are some OS issues that Rebol is actually intended to work around!
 
I measured, if you don't use tcmalloc and go fully naive, 5% or so slower
If you use tcmalloc, better perf.
 
I've always wanted to go fully naive. Is there a Club Med for that? :)
@HostileFork Hopefully that's a decision I can postpone then without too many headaches in the interim.
 
9:38 PM
@HostileFork What native? Gcc native? Gcc provides its own "optimized" malloc implementation, does not use any system libs.
 
@MarkI Switching to calloc instead of malloc() + clear and ditching all the pools: github.com/rebol/rebol/blob/…
It costs about 5% (random tests, 64-bit linux)
Presumably the pooling implementation was added to try and get that 5%
But with tcmalloc, it vanishes
 
@HostileFork Tested on Rebol core or your C++ hybrid?
 
@MarkI Rebol core
I'm actually not anti-pool on REBSER
 
@HostileFork Well, your platform must provide a good-enough tcmalloc implementation then. Send a message to googlecode and get them to add it to the list ... :)
 
It is fine to me if REBSER gets pooled, but for general allocation, no.
I have a hard time forming an opinion about REBGOB because gob! and all of that looks like a design vacuum. As in: I don't think the people doing that know what they're doing.
 
9:44 PM
@HostileFork I don't know what you mean by general allocation.
@HostileFork So just like email!s and tag!s, then :)
 
@MarkI It makes pools, trying to avoid malloc calls. So if you ask for something of size 4 it looks in the hash table and says "oh, you want something of size 4! We don't have to malloc that... we have a pool. We'll not call nasty old malloc, we called it once... to make a big block for all the 4-sized things... that one chunked malloc is what we'll use..."
That's the B.S.
"I don't trust the allocator"
 
I understand pooled allocation. I don't understand general allocation in the context of "as opposed to REBSER* allocation". Do you mean things smaller than a 1-element REBSER array?
 
@MarkI With REBSER it's not about the size. It's about the fact that when you mess with a REBSER* it's always fields, never pointer arithmetic. You really don't go out of bounds. I guess I'm okay with pooling that as a second-guess.
So if pooling adds noticeable performance benefit on those, I'd say "ok". I'd doubt it though, with tcmalloc
 
@HostileFork OK, gotcha now, it's in how the result is used, not in the result pointer type itself.
 
@MarkI yip.
@MarkI yip yip yip
@MarkI (provided for context so you know the reference, although age-wise, I think you might know what "yip yip" means)
 
10:52 PM
@HostileFork Ewoks?
 
I was thinking The Muppet Show, but I guess it's Sesame Street
 
@kealist Believe it or not, one of those two I have never seen, ever.
Bert and Ernie never made it to the Muppet Show, thankfully.
 
11:19 PM
Anyway, current large-scale rework of Rebol memory is an ambitious and tedious task. I regret thinking of the idea.
But...I think I'll get it booting soon.
@MarkI Maybe by then, we can try building it with TCC.
 

« first day (1617 days earlier)      last day (2163 days later) »