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3:31 AM
@HostileFork That's ok. I'll accept the praise anyway. I'm not too proud.
 
 
2 hours later…
5:11 AM
So I managed to build tcc using tcc.
The "input" tcc.exe I used (win-32, 0.9.26) is 14848 bytes big, however the "output" tcc.exe it created is 7680 bytes long.
I guess, I have improved its tininess by 100% ... yippee!
Any tcc AND Windows experts out there? Hahahaha.
However, maybe someone can answer a hopefully much dumber question: if X is either 32 or 64, is it true that you need a X-bit compiler to build a X-bit executable?
At least there is some sort of good news: "file" says the same thing about (both the input and) the output tcc.exe and the r3-g25033f8.exe I use.
I'll take any encouragement at this point ...
 
6:09 AM
@MarkI I don't know if 32-bit gcc can build 64-bit executables or not, never tried. But to build 32-bit EXEs using 64-bit gcc you can say -m32. There may also be a -m64 switch. (?)
TCC may only output i386, I don't remember from skimming the source if it made 64-bit or not
 
6:27 AM
@MarkI Well, I've been complaining repeatedly about it, and putting it into every meta post going "will someone please fix this" and finally someone did.
Squeaky wheels and all.
 
7:15 AM
@earl couple more sequence points. Still seems a bit silly to be fixing these one at a time by inspection.
 
7:38 AM
Hm, interesting idea from @maxim... SWITCH vs. SWITCH/STRICT
What if equal? a.k.a. = considered datatypes equivalent to their word! equivalent, and it was strict that didn't? Then SWITCH could indeed use the /STRICT refinement.
x: 3 'integer! = type-of x would be true, and x: 3 'integer! == type-of x would be false.
That sounds like a really good idea.
I think this is every bit as useful, if not much moreso, than 1 = 1.0
I'll throw that in Ren Garden
 
8:10 AM
@MarkI , with the 32 bit mingw-64 toolchain you can build 64 bit binaries
and vice versa, of course
 
I am now building 4 different kinds of tinier tcc's, 32- and 64-bit in both PE and ELF formats.
I really have no idea what I am doing.
 
@MarkI "How do you avoid making mistakes?" "Experience." "How do you get experience?" "By making mistakes."
 
8192 Apr 4 04:10 win32-elf/tcc.exe
8192 Apr 4 04:10 win32/tcc.exe
8704 Apr 4 04:10 win64-elf/tcc.exe
8704 Apr 4 04:10 win64/tcc.exe
Those are my creations. Here are the "originals".
 
winXX-elf? :-/ What runs that?
 
14848 Apr 4 00:41 ../win32/tcc.exe
17408 Apr 4 00:41 ../win64/tcc.exe
@HostileFork Mebbe it's portable, can run on non-Windoze?
It is highly suspicious to me that my 64-bit versions are exactly one-half of the size of the pre-built one ...
 
8:18 AM
@MarkI ELF is used by Linux, Mach-O by Mac. If you have i386-elf it may run on Linux but I don't know what they're using for a libc. Really, I haven't looked closely at it
However, upon reflection, I think what you're doing is a very interesting idea and part of the whole philosophy and picture. While Red wants to say "no external toolchain" it would be perhaps interesting if Rebol included the entire required toolchain in the source repository. If it had the C compiler source as part of the package, isn't that sort of striking distance of what Red is doing?
Perhaps TCC could be linked into Rebol, and Rebol could escape into C. :-/
And it would still be small.
rebol myprogram.c => myprogram.exe
Except in Rebol's case, if you wanted to fall back on monster toolchains and optimizers, you can.
@MarkI Incidentally, I avoid calling you Mark, because I assume that's not your name, (although perhaps it is Mark Ildefonso). Would you like a non MarkI name?
 
@HostileFork Either is fine. It is my name.
 
@MarkI All right Mr. Ildefonso. :-)
 
8:34 AM
:)
I have been called worse.
In grade school I was Marcus Welby. Kids, so imaginative ...
 
@MarkI At least your name isn't mechanically filtered‌​. I want to legally change my name to Rolex Viagra.
 
9:31 AM
It turns out, after investigating the Rebol source some, that it has bugs.
 
10:11 AM
@pierre If you're on a real computer now and feel like giving Ren Garden building a try, there are instructions..‌​.all help is greatly appreciated.
 
@HostileFork Hi!
I usually argue that what we call "smart(sic)phones" are actually real computers.
However, I am now, as you may have guessed, typing on an old-style, real, physical, AZERTY keyboard!
I have an ultra-urgent report to deliver ASAP, and I'll be playing rock'n roll this afternoon, so I'm afraid I won't have much time to try Ren Garden today.
I already found this page, it seems to be quite clear... so far.
Gee, it seems that a lot of things have happened in the RedBol world!
 
@pierre A small crew, but dedicated... a few people going awol, a few new ones.
 
Hey! who starred me?? This must be among the most stupid and tasteless sentences I've ever written!! @HostileFork, you're accused... ;)
 
@pierre That would be me. I don't think anyone else is awake. :-)
 
Obviously...
 
10:20 AM
Starring things lets people click to see the sentence in context.
 
Yes, well...
 
For instance, it's very important to notice on the "Y'know" post both the April 1st date and me saying April fools :-)
 
;)
I've been in Amazonia, and then in Sahara for long times: during all this time, few to no Internet connection... but still, I have always coded in Rebol, usually small scripts, useful utilities, mainly dealing with PostgreSQL and doing things with data.
 
I'm currently working on a massive screw-tightening effort that might well resolve a giant swath of bugs.
 
Waw. Sounds scary.
 
10:22 AM
It is empowering valgrind to actually catch errors.
 
Ah, what's valgrind? It rings a bell, in the far distance...
 
Valgrind /ˈvælɡrɪnd/ is a programming tool for memory debugging, memory leak detection, and profiling. It is named after the main entrance to Valhalla in Norse mythology. Valgrind was originally designed to be a free memory debugging tool for Linux on x86, but has since evolved to become a generic framework for creating dynamic analysis tools such as checkers and profilers. It is used by a number of Linux-based projects. Since version 3.5, Valgrind also works on OS X. The original author of Valgrind is Julian Seward, who in 2006 won a Google-O'Reilly Open Source Award for his work on Valgrind....
 
(don't bother, google is one of my friends)
Oh, too late, you're faster than google!
 
I also draw better logos.
 
;)
 
10:24 AM
A nice wallpaper if you don't have a copy:
 
(I have particular hate of logos, since the year... 2001? I think?
 
Inconsistent shadowing, but all fixable.
 
I used to work in a big company, they called a private consultant cabinet to design its new logo, and they came out with a crappy (litteraly) thing, they never consulted the people doing the job, so they had a totally wrong mental picture of what geology was all about; and after that, we had to change all .doc, all reports templates, etc. to cope for the new so-called magnificent corporate style sheet... It costed millions to the company, in ingeneers' time...)
 
"Among Chuang-tzu's many skills, he was an expert draftsman. The king asked him to draw a crab. Chuang-tzu replied that he needed five years, a country house, and twelve servants. Five years later the drawing was still not begun. 'I need another five years,' said Chuang-tzu. The king granted them. At the end of these ten years, Chuang-tzu took up his brush and, in an instant, with a single stroke, he drew a crab, the most perfect crab ever seen."
 
@HostileFork ;o)
 
10:28 AM
In the end, it is the brand. Firefox may well throw out most of its guts and replace them with WebKit. Same with IE. The technology changes, the logo/brand/name doesn't. Attention and mindshare is currency more than code capital.
Hence my attention to these points.
 
@HostileFork But are you doing this in a Red/Rebol context, or just for the sake of it? IIUW, valgring is not (yet) designed to debug Red and/or Rebol, is it?
@HostileFork Hm, wise. I'll think about it while playing, this afternoon.
 
@pierre Valgrind isn't just one thing, it's a suite of things. By default it's a memory checker. It hooks malloc/free and puts lots of boundary checking on it...it's willing to tradeoff space and performance in order to count leakages, or catch writes into uninitialized memory. It uses some kind of injection such that you don't need to recompile to have it do so.
But there are many things it can do besides just that.
 
@HostileFork Sounds scary... Do you a sort of diabolic plan of getting rid of Blue Screens of Death? not *BSD, of course...
 
The issue I've been looking at involves memory pooling. Rebol tries to do its own memory pool to reduce the number of allocations. So instead of doing malloc(4) it says "I don't trust malloc, it will be slow and add too much bookkeeping". So instead it does malloc(4 * 1024) (or whatever) and then whenever it needs a 4 byte thing it just grabs out of that "pool"
 
@HostileFork "pooling" => ? (sorry, I'm still French...)
 
10:33 AM
Memory pools, also called fixed-size blocks allocation, is the use of pools for memory management that allows dynamic memory allocation comparable to malloc or C++'s operator new. As those implementations suffer from fragmentation because of variable block sizes, it is not recommendable to use them in a real time system due to performance. A more efficient solution is preallocating a number of memory blocks with the same size called the memory pool. The application can allocate, access, and free blocks represented by handles at run time. Many real-time operating systems use memory pools, such as...
Colloquially, "pool" being usually the term for a swimming pool, but used in computer science as a way of saying "arena" or "box" or "container", effectively.
The problem with manually implementing your own allocator abstracted on top of malloc is that anything hooking malloc can't catch errors.
 
Ok, I see... a bit like the idea of fixed-length data files, like dBase, which allow direct memory addressing, IIUC.
 
If you overstep the boundary, it won't know, because as far as malloc() is concerned, you're still inside a legal space.
The only way you'd get an actual trap is if you happen to be in the first or last cell in the pool and move past it.
@pierre look at this, for instance, a bug never caught: github.com/rebolsource/r3/blob/…
See the *(bp-1)? What if len is 0?
The memory pools were why no one caught it
A good allocator, like tcmalloc, not only pools but does a lot more magic. You shouldn't have your language second guess the allocator.
Not only will you get more (invisible) bugs, it will probably be slower overall.
Admittedly, native malloc is kind of dumb on most OSes. Solution: don't use it. If you link against tcmalloc, all malloc() calls go to tcmalloc, and you don't even get libc malloc() linked into your code.
Anyway, I'm still trying to get my tidied-up Rebol to boot, but already found several bugs.
 
@HostileFork Where does *bp come from?
 
@pierre Output parameter of Prep_String
 
@HostileFork Ok... So the solution here would be simple: check for len == 0 and raise an error instead of messing memory. But there may be plenty other similar things hidden. Correct?
 
10:45 AM
Depends on the semantics.
Yes, there turn out to be lots of problems.
 
@HostileFork Oops. Malesh. (wise Arabic for -sort of- sorry)
 
Another thing I'm doing as long as I'm in here is to get rid of the zeroing of memory in the allocator. That's an extra cost.
If you allocate 1k of bytes, and go through and zero it, and then fill it all from elsewhere, why did you zero it?
Zeroing has another cost... it keeps from tripping errors in valgrind saying "did you know you're using uninitialized memory?"
 
I've always been scared by the use of pointers to directly address memory. You just frightened me even more...
 
Because once you put that zero there, it assumes you knew what you were doing.
 
Sorry, I must be going, meal time.
 
10:47 AM
TTYL
 
Bye, catch you later!
 
11:30 AM
posted on April 04, 2015 by noreply

This is minor release mainly motivated by the need to fix some annoying issues and regressions we have encountered in the last release: the help function was displaying an error when used with no arguments, preventing newcomers from seeing the general help informationthe console pre-compilation issue with timezones was back. Some significant new features managed to sneak into this release too,

 
Sigh. Red is doing hash! :-/
I said why I didn't like that as a user type... here-we-go-again. So now, if I hash-accelerate a block, I can't pass it to things taking a block!? I'm going to have to take [block! hash!]? :-(
But hey, let's just make all of Rebol2 mistakes over again.
Grumble, grumble.
What's wrong with set-block-properties block [hashed] or something, and have it still type as a BLOCK! ?
 
11:50 AM
posted on April 04, 2015 by DocKimbel

Red 0.5.2 is out http://www.red-lang.org/2015/04/052-case-folding-and-hash-support.html

 
Anyway, I bothered to gripe about HASH! as a "must be approved" blog comment (we'll see if it shows up)... and filed the "Universal Failure" bug. I have become kind of convinced that DocKimbel and I are really not looking to solve the same problem, but even so, there is a set of intersectional concerns. That would be an example of one.
 
12:38 PM
So your opinion is, that there should be only a block type, which should be fast?
 
@pekr If you choose to apply the space-time tradeoff to pay for certain aspects of speed, you get it. This is true in databases--you don't have "different kinds of tables" or "different kids of queries". It's covered by adding indexes, and everything else stays the same.
It is misguided to create a new datatype whose user-facing behavior is the same, and has nothing to differentiate it besides performance profile.
You just wind up with the mire of foo: func [blk [block! hash!]] [...] that I mentioned. I've said this before. I don't know why I have to keep saying it.
 
How is hash limited compared to general block functionality? And btw - not sure where such debate occured before - is Doc even aware of your point of view?
 
@pekr It's not limited...that's the point. If every function that can operate on a block can operate equally well on a hash, then why should you have to account for both in the type signature? My point of view is known, but I did post a comment on the announcement, phrased less confrontationally than here. We'll see if he listens. I don't feel he's the kind of person who listens very often.
But it takes all kinds. I tune, I test, I experiment, I believe different things from one day to the next. I suppose someone has to just plow ahead with their vision, mistakes and all, to have anything to criticize.
It's not my method. I like planning, metrics, principle, formalism, analysis. Then there are "cowboy coders". I'm getting a little irate lately about the "cowboy code" in Rebol as I debug it, because I had promised myself that I wasn't going to do what I'm doing debugging it.
I was going to do design, only.
Apparently that promise is out the window, now.
Anyway, I may be speeding up Rebol by factor of 2 or so. News forthcoming.
I'm not personally that interested in minor performance upgrades as I am catching bugs (which is the actual intent of the work, trying to chase down the Lest problems.)
It's just circumstantial that when you have control of a system, you can do more about the performance profile, because you can accept more things as invariant.
 
1:14 PM
@HostileFork Well, I can see one problem at least: how would you mold such a thing?
Are blocks going to need a spec, a MAKE syntax, and a construction syntax now?
@HostileFork Fortunately R3 has the any-block! typeset that takes care of this concern ... right?
 
 
1 hour later…
2:18 PM
Answering my own question: it is to laugh. The only functions that accept any-block! arguments out of the box are REDUCE and COMPOSE, and even then that's only for the /output argument, not the input one.
Personally, I can see no reason for not changing every occurrence of block! to any-block! in every spec of every function in every context.
But, that's just me.
>> foreach context words-of system/contexts [print "" print src CONTEXT if none? ctx: system/contexts/:context [print <empty> continue] foreach word words-of :ctx [all [not unset? set/any 'f get/any in :ctx :word any-function? :f unset? prin [join :word ": "] foreach blk spec-of :f [if all [block? blk find blk 'any-block!] [prin mold blk] true] unset? print ""]]]
Did I just kill poor RebolBot?
@RebolBot alive?
Oops if I did.
I did want to show people the monstrosity I had to write to winkle out that datum -- but I didn't have to cram it down @RebolBot's throat.
And sorry @rgchris, as once again I combine presentation with results. I am a basher, but that's no excuse.
But, to return to an earlier point, maybe that change (block! to any-block!) was intended all along, and it just hasn't been done yet.
 
 
4 hours later…
6:32 PM
@MarkI What you can reduce and compose has been something I've brought up in the past.
>> reduce 4
Uh oh. @johnk -- looks like RebolBot decided to take a vacation..
red> reduce 4
Et tu, redbot?
 
7:29 PM
There are two things wrong with Rebol zero-filling every memory allocation. One is, you pay for that even if you're going to overwrite those filled zeros (so some performance cost). Another is that once you've written the zeros, Valgrind thinks it's okay for you to read from that because "you must have known what you were doing when you wrote the value"
Add onto that, that REB_END is 0. :-/ Recipe for trouble.
 
 
3 hours later…
10:51 PM
Hum. Hello @blackball. Curious about Rebol/Red?
First time's free.
 
>> "Easter Holidays .. time for a rest"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "Easter Holidays .. time for a rest"
 
red> "Some of us have work to do"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
*** Script error: read does not allow file for its name argument
*** Where: read
*** Stack: do-console all not unset? set do first head reduce do* _execute if all script read
 
:-)
Looks like tryrebol needs a quick restart as well
@HostileFork happy(ish) bots
 
11:05 PM
@johnk ALL [well | ends well]
 
@HostileFork ANY time!
 

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