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12:37 AM
@BrianH Regarding NONE propagation, do you have an answer for why (for instance) in @gnat's question here index? (=> index-of) should not none propagate? What are the rules?
I do not know that I think none propagation would be sensible there, or at least, it seems to be more fragile than not. What's a "good example" of none propagation?
 
 
4 hours later…
4:17 AM
@rgchris there's a CC ticket about the off-by-one bug with near on errors triggered by ops.
>> do [1 / 0]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/math-zero-divide.html
    *** ERROR
** Math error: attempt to divide by zero
** Where: / do
** Near: / 0
 
>> do [try [1 / 0]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/math-zero-divide.html
    *** ERROR
** Math error: attempt to divide by zero
** Where: / try do
** Near: / 0
 
>> error? do [try [1 / 0]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
4:25 AM
Looks like you were getting confused by how the error prints out. DO and REDUCE treat an error in a block the same, but when printing out an inactive error at the top level it's formatted the same as an active error. But if it was active, error? wouldn't have taken it as a parameter.
>> error? do [1 / 0]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/math-zero-divide.html
    *** ERROR
** Math error: attempt to divide by zero
** Where: / do
** Near: / 0
 
Inactive error values in a block are printed out differently.
At least at the top level they are. It's the same code which prints out triggered errors. The top level includes a handler for otherwise uncaught triggered errors.
Maybe the top level should only print out errors it catches that way, and print out inactive errors that are merely returned in the same way they appear in a block, so you can tell the difference.
 
 
2 hours later…
6:57 AM
@HostileFork - Ladislav appeared for a moment on AltME, he posted two notes towards the construction syntax topic, so just FYI ....
- I am against changing the existing #[...] construction syntax
- If there is a need to have a new syntax for maps, I would prefer something like ![....], m[...], etc. See http://issue.cc/r3/2094
No further comments or explanations ...
 
 
4 hours later…
11:04 AM
https://github.com/red/red/pull/1049
GitHub
Red Pull Req—FIX: issue #938 and #939 (path! doesn't select char! from block)
qtxie
1425617715
 
11:17 AM
posted on March 06, 2015 by draegtun

[Reddit] A tool to help wrap C functions in Rebol 3

 
 
2 hours later…
1:21 PM
@pekr Well, the space significance issue would be more pronounced with m[...] and ![...]. He would need to reconcile that with if he thinks in general you should have to put spaces as in if[...] being different from if [...]. I myself am in favor of keeping the "brackets don't need spaces" rule.
 
posted on March 06, 2015 by draegtun

[Reddit] Common Parse Patterns

 
@HostileFork Yeah, Ladislav in general thinks that you should be forced to write spaces in if[...] or ][.
 
I did not understand, why he was referring to his ticket in regards to the construction syntax. Is that related? (well - did not have time to read the ticket and reactions properly)
@earl - are you with Doc already? :-)
 
@pekr Not yet, no. Later in the afternoon :)
@pekr I think Ladislav refers to this ticket because he thinks that space requirements in Rebol should be far stricter than they are now. If space requirements were stricter, that would be one way to "free up" lexical space which would then allow for syntax such as the m[...] Ladislav mentions.
 
ok, understood ...
 
1:35 PM
However, m[...] has a somewhat off-the-cuff smell (I know quite a few people, myself included, who have considered something similar at the first thought). I think @[...] or @(...) are more refined.
 
what I also liked, was that with some dtypes, some chars were ignored IIRC, e.g. with money. It is valid to write CZK$200,0
Not sure it is the same with the binary? 64#{}?
 
I take Ladislav's suggestion of ![...] as an indication that he is not totally opposed to affixing a sigil for "map blocks".
 
m[] looks like a typo ....
 
>> 2#{11110000}
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== #{F0}
 
1:38 PM
>> 64#{yv4=}
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== #{CAFE}
 
:-)
 
@pekr So it's not really ignored in binary. but can actually be used to write binaries in different bases.
 
I just liked the idea of money type, where it seems to be ingored, so that it could be used to provide some description, or as in case of binary, to provide further meaning. Not sure anything like that could be any useful to maps ...
 
One issue of the space significance and parentheses is that parentheses are legal characters in a URL!.
>> load "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_(programming_language)"
 
1:48 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_ (programming_language)]
 
Yet I feel it to be unquestionable that one wants to be able to write [(foo)] without spaces.
Because square brackets are now called out very strongly in the logo, it makes sense to say that it's the square bracket that provides the "exception"
This is also a legal URL: http://example.com/((()(()(
Being able to type [(foo)(bar)] instead of [(foo) (bar)] is not terribly compelling.
 
Square brackets are also valid characters in URLs. I don't think URLs should exert too strong an influence on Rebol's lexical design.
 
@HostileFork http://[2a00:1450:4014:80b::1004]/
 
@earl I don't know if it's so much about URLs specifically as it is just "what's the real value you get from being able to write (a)(b)(c) instead of (a) (b) (c), in a language that already says a/b is different from a /b and a / b"
 
2:02 PM
@HostileFork "value", I don't know. It just seems that quite some people like to mush their delimiters together, especially over multi-line constructs.
all [(
    ...
)(
    ...
)(
    ...
)]
 
Further from Ladislav ... but surely I can't repost all his postings from Altme, maybe it is not even fair, but for the further thoughts about the topic, it might be forgivable ...
To explain it further, I claim that Rebol syntax is designed so that

map! [a: 1 b: 2 c: 3]

should be interpreted as a word followed by a block, while

map![a: 1 b: 2 c: 3]

should be interpreted as a different type of syntax, where the map! text modifies the meaning.

There are users who claim that this idea is limiting their freedom to require the computer to use the above syntax types interchangeably.
 
Reposting some replies of mine as well:
It's evident that Rebol's primary designer did not design Rebol in a way that there is a space required between e.g. a closing and an opening square bracket ][.
Leaving that discussion aside, the proposed <datatype>[...] syntax has its merits.
For compatibility reasons, it's also pretty easy to conceive a slightly modified variant, of <typename><sigil>[...], which would side-step the space significance discussion and trade it against a "potentially slightly reduced set of valid characters in words" discussion.
 
2:19 PM
I'm still liking datatype@[...] because of the sidestep and the visual distinction.
 
Which then ties nicely into the discussions we had about <typename>@[...].
Right :)
 
2:48 PM
@HostileFork - we know you don't like exclamation marks :-)
 
3:15 PM
Warning: opinion ahead :)
I would call Ladislav's remarks extremely helpful and extremely compelling.
I say he's **not** saying spaces are to be required between ][ or even ]].
I say he's saying if there isn't a space there, it is up to the datatype's context on the left to decide what to do.
So a very simple rule could be "WHEN facing the sequence ][ or ]], IF the initial ] is closing a block (i.e., not a construction), AND that block is not in a path, THEN the behaviour is the same as if a space had occurred between those delimiters."
I feel this would firm up Rebol's flexibility and extensibility considerably, with a clear way to proceed into the future.
As an example, consider the syntax word-followed-by-string.
Currently, Rebol's LOAD function will load that sequence as two elements, a word and a string.
 
I'm not sure I like either[...][...] and either [...][...] being different, with the former equivalent to either[...] [...] and the latter equivalent to either [...] [...].
 
But MOLD will output a word and a string with a space separating them.
This is what some people have called a bug in MOLD.
 
I'm not really concerned what mold does. I'm concerned about source representations being different when (beyond to just being familiar with a certain rule) I look at them and think that given how the language works, it doesn't have "good quality".
 
What Ladislav is saying, if I can paraphrase, is that it's actually a bug in LOAD.
 
Things are confusing enough.
 
3:25 PM
Which can be fixed in one of two ways:
a) detailing that word syntax clearly stops at an opening quote or brace, and then starts a string at that point;
or
 
If the space significance is enforced, then outer blocks like ][ would have to be spaced as ] [ in source.
 
b) defining word syntax as interpreting an attached string and changing the result or causing a syntax error.
@HostileFork You didn't read what I wrote, I clearly said the opposite.
 
3:52 PM
@MarkI Yes. That's why it's what I said, and attributed to me in the chat.
I would not be in favor of making either[...] mean something different from either [...] in source unless spacing was enforced such that [...][...] was distinguished from [...] [...]. It doesn't "jibe" with me that a compressed writing like either[...][...] have a different meaning from either [...][...] while the latter is equivalent to either [...] [...]. I simply don't like that.
I might be able to get behind an "outer space" proposal, which promoted the need for spaces on the outer edges of brackets, if that were applied uniformly. But I think such a proposal would fight an uphill battle.
 
@HostileFork Funny guy. But I apologize anyway, I think I'm starting to see what you're driving at.
 
In general, I think we have a pretty good solution by way of exploiting the concept of an invalid leading token, something that's not allowed to stand alone.
 
I myself have no problem with "the word syntax of 'either'" deciding whether or not an attached block is interpreted or separated, independent from whether blocks attach to blocks. But I can now see that you feel differently.
@HostileFork Agreed, and that's actually not in conflict with Ladislav's proposal.
 
If a # cannot stand alone without being an error, then #[...] or #(...) for a syntax is fine. datatype#[...] is also all right but I'm liking the @ more, given how heavily # is used already
@(...) for a literal object mixes nicely with square brackets, as pointed out already, if you have a JSON like "list and maps only" representation
 
I think there is some consensus coming that the special characters, or at least "@#$%", should be syntax errors if they stand alone. I've heard mention that % defaulting to %"" is a bad idea, for example.
 
4:24 PM
posted on March 06, 2015 by Ladislav

[Comment] "In this argument, all attempts to cause syntax changes in Rebol by blaming MOLD are not valid, because we can fix MOLD. " - certainly, it is possible to fix MOLD. However, I am not blaming MOLD. I am saying that there are incompatibilities between LOAD and MOLD, and it is not always MOLD to blame.

posted on March 06, 2015 by Ladislav

[Comment] "As a bonus, if we fix MOLD of word types, we can get rid of the character set limitations of words." - that is a "backwards" proposal - Carl strived to make sure only "legal" words are created. Therefore, no construction syntax for words is necessary.

 
About the space significance debate, I read through the proposal and comments, and it looks like I still stick by what I said. Most of the issues are MOLD issues, there were 2 good ideas in there, and the rest were not good ideas. And Ladislav's old suggestions for heredoc syntax is better than anything in that space significance ticket.
 
4:42 PM
posted on March 06, 2015 by fork

[Comment] I generally support adhering more strongly to the idea that spaces should be significant. New users often ask why `a/b` is different from `a / b`. The matra is that by sticking to the notion of "words separated by spaces", there is more freedom in carving up the lexical space. By not saying "slash always means divide" there are URLs and file paths and other things that can be encod

 
5:10 PM
@BrianH Yes—should be a display distinction: I was caught by this difference (returned vs. vs. encountered vs. active error) when I first delved into Rebol 3.
@pekr If he'd posted them in a web-public group, you could have linked to them :)
 
Ladislav's last comment on the space significance ticket made it clear to me that I really need to make the series of tickets related to the MOLD fixes. Anything that he gets confused about is something that needs a proper explanation.
But that will have to wait until I can allocate Rebol time outside of work hours, when I have access to a regular computer. I'm always limited by CC's lack of a mobile layout. I could do all this stuff from my phone if we were using Github issues.
 
5:47 PM
I realized that last message wasn't clear. I normally don't have daytime access to a regular computer unless I'm at work, and they don't want me to do this stuff at work, so if you hear from me during the day it's almost always from my phone and often from a train. I don't often get time on a regular computer for Rebol stuff, except when I can allocate spare time in evenings and weekends. So anything without mobile access might as well not exist for me.
 
@BrianH Well, we could migrate all the issues to GitHub if we had an agreement on where to put them. We've been holding out now for a year for Carl to pass the reigns and let us give the appearance of coherence and rally around github's rebol/rebol. It hasn't happened yet.
 
6:04 PM
@BrianH You sound like the perfect candidate for a job at Fullstack Technologies in Zhongguancun, working from a home base, to me ;-)
 
6:39 PM
posted on March 06, 2015 by szeng

[Comment] The above "fix" changes the semantics and breaks the code in r3-gui.r3: unless foreach [here: hand] sys-hand [ if handler/priority > hand/priority [ insert here handler break/return true ] ] [ append sys-hand handler ]

 
>> do reb4.me/r/mush
mold-compact/only [<a> set #{0F} 9 (values) that@demonstrate <space> <de-> pendency]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== {<a>set #{0F}9(values)that@demonstrate <space><de->pendency}
 
(MOLD-COMPACT from Rebmu)
 
6:55 PM
@iArnold I live in the SF bay area and support a wife and 3 cats, so any job I take has to take the high cost of living here into account. But that sounds like a nice idea :)
 
>> do reb4.me/r/mush
mold-compact/only [# "Text" #issue #{FF} # (#) more [space] exceptions]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== {# "Text"#issue #{FF} # (# )more[space]exceptions}
 
Hm.
>> do reb4.me/r/mush
mold-compact/only [# "Text" #issue #{FF} # (#) more [space] exceptions]
@RebolBot delete
>> do reb4.me/r/mush
mold-compact/only [# "Text" #issue #{FF} # (#) more [space] exceptions]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== {# "Text"#issue #{FF}# (#)more[space]exceptions}
 
posted on March 06, 2015 by szeng

[Comment] Another try: https://github.com/zsx/r3/commit/d4b51635983cb093774b7212c76671aaf3616f82

 
7:33 PM
You can have a negative CHAR! ?
>> -#"a"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== #"^""
 
red> -#"a"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== #"^""
 
>> negate #"a"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-expect-arg.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: negate does not allow char! for its number argument
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
7:42 PM
@rgchris No you can not have negative chars. You can, however, find a bug in Scan_Token(). Congratulations!
It's one that's already in my mondo bug list, to be released soon.
 
A bug in Rebol and Red?
 
8:00 PM
@rgchris I can only confirm the former.
 
When entered at try.rebol.nl it results for R2 in
== #"a" for Red
== #"^@" for R2
 
@rgchris Sorry, I should have said, Scan_Token() is a C function in the file l-scan.c of the Rebol source tree.
 
red> [ -#"a" ]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [#"^""]
 
red> system/version
 
8:08 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "0.5.0"
 
@iArnold Weird—I get the same result [- #"a"] on the site too...
Somewhere in the redbot code the values are getting passed through Rebol, I suppose.
 
If I enter - #"a" (a space between minus and # I get
== #"�"
== #"^"" in R3 for -#"a"
I suppose the Rebolbot passes the value somehow.
 
@iArnold That could be Red's molding of the R2 value #"^@", but I'm just guessing.
 
@MarkI I am merely trying to help break down the puzzle into pieces by trying it directly on the try.rebol.nl site itself and reporting that back.
 
8:27 PM
Yep, I think that the input is loaded then molded by Rebol before sending to try.rebol.
 
 
1 hour later…
9:29 PM
111 tests passed, 434 tests failed.
CommonMark.reb is 20.37% ready.
I've just passed more than 100 tests
 
@rebolek Sounds good! Are there tests for the <tag></tag> and &entity; and &#NNN;
I use those things but I don't know their status in CommonMark. They work on StackOverflow
E=mc<sup>2</sup>
But not, for instance, here in chat.
AT&amp;T
They appear to work on GitHub also
 
@HostileFork To be honest, I don't know.
I have a list of failed tests and I always fix the first tests that fails. It usually fixes about ten other tests.
 
@rebolek There's a tester here. Those appear to work.
 
@HostileFork Good to know. That means I will encounter it sooner or later :)
Oh, there is new version of specs.
 

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