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4:57 AM
@CSᵠ "Fight Software Complexity Pollution" - Carl rebelling against installing SVN.
 
canned responses like "memory is cheap, storage is cheap" I can't even begin
not sure if the dev advocating those is just mediocre, or just doesn't like to think
of course they make sense, prolly in 90% of the cases, but still
 
Sustainability movements, in general, seem to have a hard time catching on. People like taking any given bad idea and pushing things to the absolute brink. "Let's put one more car on the road..."
 
"every update to it was more than 450 MB" <- my same issue with android, ditched Play store, installed F-droid
was amazed to see <100kb apps by the dozen, compared to ~10mb avg play store app
@HostileFork you on any irc?
hehe, KISS rules!
> 14-Sep-2013 - Cheyenne sources moved to git/Github
 
@CSᵠ Nope, this wastes enough time.
 
yeah
don't you guys build it in some way, tgz maybe, that you can HEAD and GET only
get rid of any git unless working on the sources....
the whole package being microscopic would fit this
or maybe i just don't get enough of this
 
5:10 AM
@CSᵠ Well, if you want to source download you can just get the ZIP from github for Rebol, but you will need a C toolchain. Red though should be able to fetch its own source and build as a command.
The original Git would have been pretty easy to clone in another language, but it has gotten considerably more complex as years have gone on
It has been hard for me to convince people to write "apples to apples" comparison software, anything that has the same input format as an existing tool
There is basically almost no Rebol-based tool that can just be put in place of something else and have it "just work", but with a smaller cross-platform solution
 
there isn't?
how? why?
lack of users/supporters?
 
Desire to reinvent
I don't have a problem with reinventing, but it seems to me that if you're going to come up with a dialected solution...you could at least have some kind of layer that as a pre-phase transforms the original input form to the dialect
 
Well, for a lot of platforms you would need to be able to download a source package and install it automatically with nothing but a C toolchain. That doesn't quite work for Rebol 3 because of the need to preprocess the makefile with a prebuilt Rebol, and not at all for Red because of the need for Rebol 2 binaries.
 
@BrianH As Red embeds a Rebol2 inside it with encap, in theory it could use that to run the build
It seems to me any encapped app should be able to offer the ability of acting like Rebol2 if you wanted it to. Like a red --rebol2 switch
 
@HostileFork Not on a lot of platforms. Rebol 2 doesn't have a lot of platform coverage for modern platforms.
And for other platforms, you need precompiled binaries that include everything, so encapped Red would work for platforms supported by Rebol 2, but neither would work very well otherwise.
 
5:25 AM
@BrianH There are few technical reasons why Red couldn't run on Rebol3. But it will never happen unless movement starts happening on getting foo/-1 to work like it did in Rebol2
Carl hasn't replied to my last mail. I'm wondering if there is any way to get movement in general. We're now at exactly 1 year since last integration: github.com/rebol/rebol
 
@HostileFork the index compromise is one of the epics, but it won't be completely R2 compatible (foo/0 won't work the same). But in my absence, not many people have stepped up to work on the epics.
 
I've mentioned that there has been some value in slowness. Some of the ideas for words with spaces were just bad, in retrospect. #<set-word with spaces>: for instance.
^{Ceci^_n'est^_pas^_une^_stringe^}: true
 
@HostileFork ugh. It's too bad we can't just use the Ruby syntax for this. I mean, we can, completely, but they don't have an equivalent syntax for their version of the word type. It's just a hole in their syntax.
 
I think having an escaped space is perfect, and have it work the same way in strings.
They don't have to be beautiful. They shouldn't be beautiful. Like most escaping, you avoid it unless what you're doing requires it.
 
How about this:
/"refinement" :"get word" "set word": '"lit word" #"issue"
That's the Ruby syntax. The only thing they're missing is word; they just don't support direct use of variables with nonstandard chars in them. That's the hole I was talking about.
 
5:33 AM
@BrianH It's more reasonable to think of that now, that we have discussed "abc{def}ghi" and "abc<def>ghi" breaking down as abc {def} ghi and abc <def> ghi is of questionable value (and/or actual detrimental to allow visually). That opens up syntax space.
>> load {#"issue"}
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/syntax-invalid.html
    *** ERROR
** Syntax error: invalid "char" -- {#"issue"}
** Where: to case load
** Near: (line 1) #"issue"
 
>> load {#{issue}}
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/syntax-invalid.html
    *** ERROR
** Syntax error: invalid "binary" -- "#{issue}"
** Where: to case load
** Near: (line 1) #{issue}
 
Right, I forgot about char.
 
>> load {none{issue}}
 
5:34 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [none "issue"]
 
I'm in favor of losing that.
Which opens up some token space
The only person who has a good reason to write abc{def}ghi is Dr. Rebmu, and I've spoken to him and he says it's not worth screwing up the language for a few characters here and there.
Also, if I give in and say that PRINT can handle words, nothing stops you from saying print 'word^_with^_spaces
In general you could print any word, quoted, which could be briefer than a string.
@BrianH But back to the question. What should be done about Rebol integration, given the year of inaction? Is it time to just give up and determine another repository is the official community build? (Rebolsource being the lead candidate?) Is it worth continuing to ask?
 
@HostileFork given my no longer having the time to do community management, the development won't go as quickly as it used to. Also, I officially refuse to give a crap about tests until they're put in the repo directly, since the only changes left require that kind of thing.
So the rebol-test project would need to no longer be the official test suite.
Actually, if I got the time I was planning to just merge things into my own repo, if we didn't get an active maintainer first.
 
@BrianH A Rebol/Red test unification remains something that seems worthwhile, but Red will likely not break test into a submodule unless there were some kind of high benefit shown
We still have this divide over whether the diff-based testing is valuable.
I say it isn't an area to be trying to innovate in...and almost nobody "gets it"
 
@HostileFork and Red uses an entirely different test format. I'm not worried. It's not worth making a common test suite for the two until Rebol 3 behavior is more finalized and Red gets rid of a few R2isms.
 
Red recently links to Travis CI, so that each PR is regression tested automatically and marked as valid (or not). Kind of good automatition.
 
5:48 AM
@pekr good news, as far as I am concerned.
 
@BrianH Previously, you argued that the logic for why COMPOSE would tolerate UNSET! was that it was necessary to put NONE! into blocks and there was no other way. Pursuant to the COMPOSE none ticket, wouldn't it make sense to say that it be an error, and then you use a block with a NONE! in it to splice in a NONE! value?
 
Just realistically - Red is still a long way to go towards 1.0, so I don't expect unification of test suites being a priority ...
 
@HostileFork BTW, I was about to adjust that ticket so it could be marked as reviewed.
@pekr same could be said for Rebol 3: so many things to do that we have to organize them into epics. We'll be a lot more alike once we're further on, I expect. Aside from the stuff that's inherent in the implementation strategy, both are Rebol-like languages, and such languages have certain design pressures. Good decisions for one will oftem be good for the other.
 
Are there any questions you would like to ask Doc, during our small Brno Redcon? (this Saturday)
The audience is - Doc, Earl, Cyphre, Rebolek, Oldes, Pekr ... not sure anyone else is going to join ...
 
Not me, I'm afraid. Aside from changing the bootstrapping to Rebol 3, I'm not really up of the current concerns for Red. I don't even know how far along Red itself is, and I'm not enough of a fan of Red/System to want to use it yet. I actually bought a few Raspberry Pi's to play around with Red and Rebol on, but haven't had a chance to do so yet.
 
6:02 AM
@BrianH related to the earlier discussion about the duty of PRINT to implicitly stringify things without demanding a TO-STRING (or FORM as you are used to calling it), do you feel that it really should be string converted vs. MOLDed somehow? Think for instance a file name with spaces. print [%{/some/file name/with spaces}] should output /some/file name/with spaces and that is life?
>> print [%{/some/file name/with spaces}]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
/some/file name/with spaces
 
Maybe what worries me about this implicit stringification is you aren't saying exactly what it is you want; it's like you might have wanted a MOLD but you got a "FORM". If you don't do this automatically then you get people to say what they meant
 
The only concern I have that would affect Red and Red/System right now is standardizing heterogeneous multi-scripts. It could actually be done today, with their current syntax, if they decided to. It's just a matter of agreeing to support the length header and Red's existing habit of declaring the dialect by the name before the header.
@HostileFork the entire goal of FORM is to be the default string format that you'd want to print. FORM is the sprintf to PRINT's printf. Any other formats can be done with other functions. FORM is meant to be the sensible default. If it's not sensible, we need to change it.
 
@BrianH I still call whatever this is TO-STRING (because I can't think of another good meaning for TO-STRING than what you just said, and I think FORM is a weird word that belongs in a GUI). I still don't know if there is a good sensible default or not, because you certainly wouldn't want TO-STRING of a filename with spaces to put it in quotes in any general default sense.
 
The length header is needed to support heterogeneous multi-scripts because script-in-a-block embedding requires the entire script syntax to be compatible. In comparison, the length header can be faked with only minimal compatibility of just the header part.
@HostileFork if something else needs to be the sensible default, so be it. We have a surplus of global formatting functions. Given that each has to be (morally equivalent to) an action, it seems like we might want to be a bit less global with such things. And with all of these string formatting methods, we have a serious deficit of binary formatters.
 
6:14 AM
@BrianH BLOCK! is not called BRACK!. How do you feel about PAREN! being called GROUP! ?
 
@HostileFork I'll only agree to type name changes if they are compatible with Red. That is the only way to make up for dropping compatibility with Rebol 2, at the point when I'm trying to make them more compatible with R2/Forward. And since most of the epics left have backwards-incompatible changes in them, I'm more interested in getting things right.
 
@BrianH If the projects are to succeed, new users are needed. I'm less concerned about what the distributions do than what the right answers are. A proper Ren Garden with good bindings and other things working on all platforms lays a better foundation for something people will use.
I'm okay with using a tweaked/forked distribution focused on being the thing people want. A Firefox approach vs. the idea of rewriting everything completely from scratch.
Something teachable, where you could read a book start to finish and feel good, and not run into the kind of "What?" that memophenon observed. groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/red-lang/memophenon/red-lang/…
"the Rebol languages would be easy to learn, if it weren't for their vocabulary, their syntax, their semantics, their documentation and their culture." :-)
It's funny because it's true.
I think there needs to be some kind of error-raising format that takes a URL!, and a standard system for stringifying it. raise-error http://draem.hostilefork.com/errors/Invalid_Thing_Happened where it would say "Invalid Thing Happened" and then offer you the link to the dynamic help for that.
So some way of encoding the message in the last component of the URL
Also, being able to say raise-error "Some string" is nicer than do make error! "Some string" anyway
 
6:42 AM
posted on March 05, 2015 by BrianH

[Comment] Wanting to skip inserting anything is a more common need than wanting to insert #[none!], and inserting [#[none!]] is easy enough. Seems worth it. Keep the same behavior for #[unset!] though.

 
@BrianH The unset behavior makes sense because then you have a way to get nothing even if you're using COMPOSE/ONLY. But this suggests value in being able to create an UNSET! more easily just at the tail of an expression. e.g. compose/only [foo (x: 10 xxx) bar] where xxx is a way of saying "unset". But "unset" is taken as a function at present. What should xxx be in this case?
 
@HostileFork the #[unset!] behavior it currently has is exactly what you are also requesting of #[none!]: they are omitted from the output, but can be inserted in blocks.
 
>> compose/only [(print "Hello")]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Hello
== []
 
@BrianH Current proposal is that COMPOSE/ONLY would insert nones literally as well as empty blocks, but that UNSET! would continue to insert nothing.
 
6:52 AM
I am totally OK with #[unset!] continuing to be ugly. It's #[none!]'s ugly cousin.
@HostileFork Sounds good to me.
 
But that does raise the value and frequency of creating literal unsets, especially if the idea of "unset means nothing, and none means literal none, which we actually use" catches on
compose/only [foo (x: 10 unset) bar] would thus look very natural. It suggests maybe the verb-form unset should actually take clear for the set/clear pairing, and maybe CLEAR could become ERASE
>> help clear
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
USAGE:
    CLEAR series

DESCRIPTION:
    Removes elements from current position to tail; returns at new tail.
    CLEAR is an action value.

ARGUMENTS:
    series -- At position (modified) (series! port! map! gob! bitset! none!)
 
@HostileFork none! is the placeholder for a non-value, while unset! is the real non-value. And we will have TO-VALUE to convert unset! to none! issue.cc/r3/2003 .
 
@BrianH Yes, but see above. If you are in an evaluative context... not a function... you don't have EXIT at your disposal. If you want a series of statements to evaluate to unset and not none, that's "ugly" to do. And "unset" being a type and a verb is different from "none" being a word bound to create a value of type NONE!
 
@HostileFork unset is related to unset!, and I actually wanted to extend it to paths that refer to maps or objects.
 
6:59 AM
@BrianH Well, should none 'x set x to a #[none]?
That would be related.
 
@HostileFork so, you want set/clear to be the new name for set/any? Since you can't remove an argument with an option in Rebol, you can only add them.
 
No. I want set to stay set, and clear to be the new name for what is currently called unset
Then what is currently called clear might become (for instance) erase. Off-the-cuff suggestion.
 
@HostileFork I have no problem with them not being consistent, not everything has to be.
 
Well, I wouldn't have a problem if we weren't seeing high value in the creation of literal unsets
And if it's a way to suppress insertions on a branch in COMPOSE, including COMPOSE/ONLY, I consider that to be an instance of what is likely a broader pattern of having useful behavior in a dialect when evaluations make unsets.
If they were always error conditions, you'd have little reason to make them
But we're showing they're not going to always be error conditions. COMPOSE is the beginning of a larger trend. Now COMBINE does it too.
 
I'd be more likely to agree to rename unset! to no-value!, and keep unset and unset? as they are, in addition to no-value meaning #[no-value!] and no-value?.
 
7:03 AM
Well, equally reasonable.
In general. Though I don't know why unset? and no-value? would need to be identical functions for saying the same thing.
 
But I like clear to mean what it does. It has different connotations than erase which make it more appropriate.
 
Just unset? would do.
I'd suggest nothing! as a better type name.
 
@HostileFork the only reason we'd have the no-value? function would be to be consistent with all the other types.
 
Perhaps too close to none!. It's already a very confusing situation to have two Unit Types
 
@HostileFork I could go with that, though it is harder to explain the difference between "nothing" and "none", and it isn't related to value? the way no-value! would be.
 
7:07 AM
void! ?
 
Given that the whole purpose of the type (morally) is to return false when passed to the value? function, naming the type "no-value!" seems appropriate.
 
Well, renaming the type in general is less disruptive than changing UNSET I guess
But I don't know how much I like the look of compose/only [foo (x: 10 no-value) bar]
 
@HostileFork Especially since it's such a good word for what it does, especially when compared to SET.
 
compose/only [foo (x: 10 void) bar] looks better
It is better than unset, because UNSET does sound kind of verby
A void has no value. That's understood. Void is absence of value in C, and the word has sort of a "black hole" connotation.
You cannot use a function that returns a void in an assignment. void foo() {} and auto x = foo() is a compile error for instance, in C++.
Different from null/none.
 
@HostileFork if you want void to be preset to #[unset!], or any word for that matter, it may literally be difficult to do. The whole concept of a predefined word with #[unset!] assigned to it is incompatible with the module system and runtime. And not in a way that's really fixable, since the non-value indicates that the word can be overriden.
 
7:13 AM
@BrianH It can be a function that returns unset (#[void!] in this discussion)
 
@HostileFork that would do in evaluation contexts, and I support creating such a function.
I don't like naming the type void! though, since that will give people a bad memory of C.
 
C also has WHILE, etc.
If a word is good it should be used.
It won't be anything people learn in the beginning.
 
@HostileFork Which they borrowed from Pascal, which has less of a bad taste.
 
@BrianH Well try and think of that situation and this hypothetical function. compose/only [foo (x: 10 xxx) bar]. I say no-value is ugly. (I also say that EXIT is a poor way of saying return nothing, especially given exit() prior art in programming...so RETURN of whatever this function is should probably replace that** If not return void or whatever this is, then what?
What is xxx?
return nothing would be literate
 
There is no problem with having predefined synonyms for the logic values. No reason to not have such for a function which returns nothing. But if we're renaming anything, I still think "no-value!" is the best default name for the type because it most reflects its purpose and usage.
 
7:19 AM
But we have the NONE/NOTHING being too close as to be indistinguishable
return no-value seems too much like you're returning a variable name. Hyphens should be minimized for builtins
return void is nice. I think you might need to soften the bias.
VOID is short, it means pretty much exactly that, it's distinguishable from NONE.
But really this all comes down to something I was talking about before, that there needs to be a clear rationale of why two unit types are necessary...and how their use differs in practice.
 
None of these require any particular name for the type though - we can predefine all sorts of names for that function, no matter the name of the type. I don't mind the name "void" for a function; functions are optional, we don't have to include words we don't want to, that's what modules are for. I just object to the type being named "void!".
 
Hm.
We see a very unusual landscape of concerns here.
I guess I don't really care what the type is called if you can invoke it conveniently. It seems a little bit like mental overhead when NONE gives you back a NONE! to have VOID give you back a NO-VALUE!
Though technically that has little bearing on anything
At which point, you get to why change it anyway, from UNSET!
So really it sounds like we just motivated the need for a VOID function and can leave everything else alone.
 
The default type name is non-optional, regardless of any alias name. Changing the default name for a type causes a lot of compatibility issues. It can't be done lightly. So if we're going to do it, don't make it impossible to escape the C influence. We get enough crap for the natives and extensions as it is.
 
@RebolBot
foo: func [x [any-type!]] [
probe type? :x
]
void: does [exit]
foo void
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
unset!
== unset!
 
7:29 AM
So RETURN could indeed allow return void.
 
Yup. Also, nothing: :void if you like.
 
That is better than my proposal of END taking over EXIT, because I have found I like calling variables BEGIN and END
I still want EXIT to be the exit-code-taking version of QUIT
My like of calling variables BEGIN and END, and wanting that as parse markers, has also been a bit of a thorn in PARSE.
>> parse "aaa" [begin: some "a" end: (print copy/part begin end)]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-parse-command.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: PARSE - command cannot be used as variable: end:
** Where: parse
** Near: parse "aaa" [begin: some "a" end: (print copy/part begin end...
 
I wondered if perhaps literal none could take end's place?
parse "aaa" [begin: some "a" end: (print copy/part begin end) ##]
(or whatever we settle on for literal none)
 
@HostileFork I usually use 'b and 'e in short expressions, but that's the down side of keywords. You don't see people using 'self that often for other variables, no matter how much work we did to make it possible. This is why one of the module keywords is 'hidden instead of 'hide.
 
7:33 AM
I kind of feel it was a mistake using set-words and get-words implicitly for mark and seek
 
@HostileFork literal none is a noop, and we need that, thanks :)
 
Especially with locals gathering, you might want mark pos vs mark pos:
@BrianH Why is literal none needed as a No-op?
If you had to say seek pos then it would free up :pos to mean "no, not the keyword, I mean treat this as a variable."
 
@HostileFork usually as an alternate that does nothing, when doing complex logic.
 
Well, the keyword/variable contention would be helped if :word meant "get it" vs. seek word
 
@HostileFork one of the benefits of the locals gathering getting all setwords has been having fewer leaked position variables.
 
7:38 AM
Hello @آربہشہتہبہبہوكہ ... welcome to StackExchange. I was recently messing with Rebol/Red in Arabic ... would be nice to have some advice on that! But you will need 20 points to chat. Easy to get, but Q&A must be in English though. Here's our FAQ
 
I have no problem with mark and seek or something appropriate being added as parse keywords, as long as the existing a: and :a stay. I like the convenience and brevity, and I understand the rationale. So I'm too neutral to give an opinion here.
Keep in mind that we actually wanted to make it so set and copy could take a set-word as a parameter, to enhance the scope of the locals-gathering. I don't remember if that got merged yet.
 
I implemented that. I don't remember either.
 
Apparently not.
 
I think that in dialect design, there are some questions that do come up. This issue of evaluative things and if you should always reserve get-words to override keywords if you really want to use something which overlaps the name of a keyword is one "aspect" of consideration.
What PARSE has tried to do is to use as many Rebol language words as possible to minimize the likely overlap.
So "odds are", you don't have a variable called that keyword
 
Which is why the if keyword isn't called check, as it was in my initial proposal.
 
7:44 AM
But I found I actually did call things begin and end in code outside of parse, and I've also tried to in PARSE. So my EXIT => END proposal kind of lost favor with me on that aspect, but it made me want to push on PARSE too
I'm liking this return void a lot better
 
Make a request in CC, and I'll rubber-stamp it.
 
@BrianH did you read the exit / quit one? curecode.org/rebol3/ticket.rsp?id=2181&cursor=19
So this replaces the END idea
Which turned out to kind of be not so great in my usage of it
 
@HostileFork I didn't quite agree with it. The argument that exit was more "intuitive" than "quit/return" had a serious C/Unix bias that I didn't share. Without that background it's not that intuitive.
 
@BrianH QUIT/RETURN is not intuitive, and I think if you follow above the idea that the casing tables were folded with unicode equivalence that what's really going on is more of a strict-equality... having a CASE statement and then FIND/CASE overlaps, while FIND/STRICT is not only more truthful but it doesn't have that property.
Dual-verbing is not good.
Anyway, these are separate ideas. Striking the current behavior of EXIT need not require a new EXIT be added with this behavior. I just think it should also happen.
And you can also just end a function with VOID if you get to the end of an evaluation without a RETURN
 
@HostileFork keep in mind that I am also working hard on the module system so we can make more words optional. I want to try to make the words that must be predefined be somewhat minimal. The default interpreter could have a lot of standard modules included by default, but that shouldn't be necessary for a minimal build.
 
7:52 AM
>> help return
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
USAGE:
    RETURN value /redo

DESCRIPTION:
    Returns a value from a function.
    RETURN is a native value.

ARGUMENTS:
    value (any-type!)

REFINEMENTS:
    /redo -- Upon return, re-evaluate the returned result. (Used for DO)
 
Return already accepts any-type.
 
What the actual hell. Why is /redo there?
 
Might be old.
 
Looks like the bot needs a more recent Rebol 3 build.
 
7:54 AM
That's up to Kaj until someone makes a new service. (Threats to make a new one have yet to be acted upon.)
 
>> system/build
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 19-Feb-2014/17:24:17
 
Looks like mine's old too. I better update as well.
 
posted on March 05, 2015 by fork

[Wish] While generating unsets may not seem to be a thing you'd want to make convenient, it turns out that the need to generate them does come up. At the end of a chain of evaluations, you might want to say "insert nothing", e.g. with COMPOSE: >> compose/only [foo (either condition [stuff] [#[unset!]]) bar] The desire to return an UNSET! from a function has been addressed by a variant of RET

 
Never mind, even with the update it's still wrong. It looks like the rebolsource.net build is wrong. It has the same build time as the last one I was using too. At least that explains the bot.
 
8:05 AM
@BrianH rebolsource.build is unfortunately from the mainline. You need to build it yourself right now.
 
@rebolek Never mind, I just messed up my symlink. I use ln so rarely I always forget the argument order :)
 
posted on March 05, 2015 by fork

[Comment] Pursuant to #0002200 and my own personal experience with it, I do not think taking END for this purpose and away from variables is a judicious choice. The better choice is use `return void`. However, I think the arguments in favor of EXIT and QUIT being broken down in this way remain...even though these are separate issues. One could merely eliminate exit and keep QUIT as is and so

 
@BrianH Ah Ok, I know that very well :)
 
8:26 AM
posted on March 05, 2015 by BrianH

[Comment] If we do the unsetting of EXIT, we should make it available in the 'old module (#2132). If you want EXIT to mean QUIT/return, that would be a good thing to put in the same module as things like CD and LS. Nothing wrong with the VOID function though. It has to be a function rather than a constant because the constant would be overridden by any export of the word 'void from any module.

posted on March 05, 2015 by BrianH

[Comment] Dismissed in favor of #2200, which is less intrusive. I agree: EXIT only means quit and return a code to people who have a background in C-like APIs or languages that emulate them. If you don't have that kind of background it doesn't make a bit of sense. Best to leave the C assumptions to the native and extension implementors; don't force them on the users.

posted on March 05, 2015 by fork

[Comment] A compatibility story for all code written to the older expectations is presumably a prerequisite for pretty much *any* breaking change, and it's a story that should have probably had a good way of telling prior to things like the FUNCTION remap from Rebol2 meaning... The story hasn't been told yet (e.g. no R2/Backward yet). But better late than never. And maybe that would make peo

 
8:50 AM
posted on March 05, 2015 by BrianH

[Comment] The current behavior is kind of the opposite: >> a: 'b == b >> set [:c] [a] == [a] >> c == b Instead of getting the value of the variable, it gets the value of the value. Works with direct word values too. I don't know what it's meant for, but it certainly wasn't documented. I didn't discover it until we optimized the source of SET. Which behavior is more valuable?

posted on March 05, 2015 by BrianH

[Comment] R2/Backward will mostly be covered by the 'old module. I finally figured out how to do R2/Backward, and #2132 is the backwards-compatibility part.

 
9:14 AM
posted on March 05, 2015 by fork

[Comment] QUIT/STATUS is still better than QUIT/RETURN.

 
9:50 AM
>> any [1 print "Hello" 2]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 1
 
In the spirit of "unset is not none", might that just skip over or ignore unsets vs. consider them a terminal condition?
There isn't at present a way to say "skip this element from consideration", so UNSET! would give an opportunity to say "don't return this, BUT don't let it end the short circuit"
So above, it would return 2, while any [1 print "Hello"] would return 1.
 
@HostileFork Doesn't it already precisely do what you suggest? Or did you mean to use ALL?
>> any [false print "Hello" 2]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Hello
== 2
 
>> all [1 (print 2) 3]
 
9:59 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
2
== 3
 
^^ ALL also seems to work as you suggest, @HostileFork.
>> true? all [1 (print 2)]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-expect-arg.html
    2
*** ERROR
** Script error: true? does not allow unset! for its val argument
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
But you probably want that to hold.
 
>> any [1 print "Hello"]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 1
 
10:07 AM
>> any [1 print "Hello" 2]
 
== 1
 
I propose 2.
 
Huh?
 
Oh, well I guess no, ALL.
I guess it does.
Nevermind
Pretend I said that about ALL, yes.
Though maybe there should be something that returns the last non-none thing, and skips unsets.
FOO [1 2 3 #[unset!] 4 5 none 6 7] => 5, for whatever this thing is
 
@BrianH @HostileFork SET and COPY in PARSE with set-words is merged in mainline (PR#165), the follow-up fixing position-capture with SET/COPY isn't (PR#208).
>> parse [42] [set foo: integer!]  foo
 
10:17 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 42
 
TGD
10:46 AM
@BrianH What is the CC ticket number? Any chance to see a fix for this soon? That bug is a show-stopper for one of my projects:-(.
 
11:41 AM
@TGD You can most likely work around it by using a custom compare function.
>> sort/compare [[12:01 3 3] [10:45 1 5] [9:01 4 2] [11:23 2 4]] func [x y] [(third y) - (third x)]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [[9:01 4 2] [12:01 3 3] [11:23 2 4] [10:45 1 5]]
 
@TGD And I don't think we have a ticket for this in CC yet. At least I couldn't find one in a cursory look.
 
 
3 hours later…
TGD
2:27 PM
@earl Thanks for the hint with the custom compare function. I'll give it a try...
 
 
1 hour later…
3:29 PM
@Feeds Dumb Q: What's a direct word value?
Feeds == @BrianH
 
posted on March 05, 2015 by MarkI

[Comment] Since there is currently no difference between set [:c] [:none] and set [c] [:none], we can repurpose the former, so as to enable both behaviours.

posted on March 05, 2015 by fork

[Wish] Currently, ALL *sort of* ignores unset values. Which is to say, an UNSET! will not cause the evaluation to fail and return #[none] >> all [10 print "Hello" 20] Hello == 20 However, if an unset happens at the end, that UNSET! value is returned: >> all [10 print "Hello"] Hello If an UNSET! is taken out of the consideration completely, that should return 10. Similarly, if all the eval

 
4:16 PM
I think I'm seeing the "UNSET! vs NONE!" story, but pursuant to what I've said before it's not very consistent.
>> foo
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: foo has no value
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
>> get/any 'foo
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
 
There, we see that foo has no value, and the way of conveying "no value" is the value #[unset!]. The evaluator is not willing to fetch a word's value as an unset. This is a good thing, because if it only choked when you tried to use that non-value then it would obscure a lot of problems. You could be pretty sure FOO was a function you were calling, and write foo 1 2 3 and be puzzled when nothing happened because foo was not defined and it just churned past [#unset!] 1 2 3
 
posted on March 05, 2015 by Szeng

I have written a tool to generate rebol 3 binding from c header files using libclang: https://github.com/zsx/c2r3. It includes a partial replicate of gtk3-demo for testing and demostration purpose.

2
posted on March 05, 2015 by Szeng

To run tools in c2r3, you will need the latest development build from http://atronixengineering.com/downloads.html, because of new struct syntax.

 
4:19 PM
But by the above argument, I feel this should also give you a "no value" error:
@RebolBot
obj: [bar: does [print "no foo in this object!"]]
obj/foo
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== none
 
4:58 PM
>> a: 1 set [a] [:none] mold/all a
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== ":none"
 
So, @HostileFork, how do you tell the difference between wanting to assign a get-word! value to a word and wanting to assign a get-word! expression? Because in our wonderful code-generating language, we need to do the former often enough to not want to remove support for it. And since the value block is more likely to come from an unknown source, doing things differently based on the value seems unpredictable.
 
@BrianH Hm? You mean a new issue of what happens when get words are in the block of values to assign? (I was talking about get-words in the target block, not the source one)
I assume you would want to take the values in the source block as-is
Treated as literal data
If people want to reduce it or transform it, they would
 
5:37 PM
I can't do a reply reference on my phone, but you said (in a CC comment which was referenced above, but I can't reply to on my phone): Since there is currently no difference between set [:c] [:none] and set [c] [:none], we can repurpose the former, so as to enable both behaviours.
 
@BrianH Er, that was me!
Also, see my 'direct word value' question to you above.
 
OK, cool. My life would be easier if CC had mobile support.
 
But I agree it might be a concern to start evaluating the get-words in a value block.
 
I don't know which comment you were replying to. On their mobile site, SO chat doesn't even have replies as a concept.
 
I'm just saying, that's the behaviour now, if we want to keep it, we could.
@BrianH I was actually replying to a "Feed' that reposted your comment from the CC ticket, sorry for the confusion. I just didn't want to start a q/a session in a CC ticket ...
Your comment, the one before mine, used the phrase.
Here's the phrase, with some context: "... it gets the value of the value. Works with direct word values too."
 
5:57 PM
Oh, I meant set [:c] 'a; the value not in a block, but there directly. Boy, that comment needs some editing.
 
@BrianH There is a "use full site" option, I skip the mobile version
 
@HostileFork, that new ticket you created about any or all and unset is a duplicate of an existing ticket (there's one for each). It's a good policy to search the summaries for "[epic]" and read all the things before posting, as most of the tickets with consensus are linked in the epics.
You might as well delete your duplicate ticket.
 
@BrianH Thanks, I now understand ... that part of your comment :)
 
It'll be a couple hours at least until I can edit it.
 
@BrianH I tend to rely on earl for "that's a duplicate" notifications, and he didn't mention it...if CureCode were less difficult to search (confirm form resubmission, etc.) it would be easier. :-/ But ok, dismissed.
 
6:11 PM
posted on March 05, 2015 by fork

[Comment] Duplicate of #850

 
That's why I made the epics, to act as a curated index.
 
Wait. What the heck?
49
Q: Avoiding recursion when reading/writing a port synchronously?

Shixin ZengAll port operations in Rebol 3 are asynchronous. The only way I can find to do synchronous communication is calling wait. But the problem with calling wait in this case is that it will check events for all open ports (even if they are not in the port block passed to wait). Then they call their...

A Rebol question with 49 upvotes and a 50 point bounty offered by someone we've never heard of?
That is one vote more than three times the second most upvoted Rebol question.
Is this a bug?
 
This SET kafuffle has reminded me of something I wanted to put to the group.
One inconsistency that has been bugging me is paths vs words.
From my point of view, a word can be seen as a one-element path.
This helps a lot in simplifying questions I have about paths and words.
Does anyone agree? Is there an obvious hiccup I am missing here?
As a simple example, I would like to see SET handle a block of paths and words, not just words.
I know I can file a wish ticket, and I will, I just thought I'd open it up for discussion first.
It's such an obvious idea, that I have to think that maybe there's another reason you can't set multiple paths. Ordering? I dunno.
 
6:42 PM
@MarkI I think it is reasonable to suggest that a one element path and a word behave the same way.
You would always need construction syntax to create a one-element path, even under NewPath rules.
 
Actually, I was going to make a ticket for that before because I needed the same functionality for UNSET, so we have an easy way to unset a map key after we switch from none to unset as the removal value.
But since you can't bind a map key you would have to unset the path to it. And once you've added UNSET for (applicable) paths, SET for the same seems an obvious extension.
 
7:06 PM
The only hiccup is that it would need to be very limited path evaluation (not as limited as @HostileFork said, but still limited), and that this path evaluation would add overhead to the functions (hopefully not when they're not being used), and hasn't been written yet.
 
7:20 PM
@BrianH Is there an example somewhere of 'limited path evaluation'? I am failing to grok ...
 
7:46 PM
@MarkI I'll put the limits in the ticket when I get time to write it. Basically, the path needs to start with an object or map, or word referring to an object or map, and every path evaluation except the last needs to be an object or map, and the last path element must be a word in the object if it's an object, but no restriction if it's a map.
No functions should be evaluated unless they're in parens and return the object-or-map or key required at that path level. I suppose we could have blocks or such at the higher levels as long as the container for the key is an object or map.
 
8:24 PM
@HostileFork Who is we?
"We, who hate AltME"? :)
 
>> block? switch "foo" ["foo" [try [1 / 0]]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== false
 
rebol2> block? switch "foo" ["foo" [try [1 / 0]]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/math-zero-divide.html
    *** ERROR
code: 400
type: math
id: zero-divide
arg1: none
arg2: none
arg3: none
near: [1 / 0]
where: none
 
Is the latter response due to Rebol 2's more aggressive error handling?
i.e. Rebol 3 passes the ERROR! back down the stack whereas Rebol 2 just bombs out in place...
(Q. to no-one in particular, but if @BrianH happens to be around...)
Seems the biggest obstacle to writing R2/R3 compatible scripts is the way one makes and passes error! values. Wish both had some type of RAISE function that behaved somewhat similarly, or at least could write RAISE functions for each that'd allow some consistency...
 
8:46 PM
>> b: [c 3 a 1] set 'b/a 5 b
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [c 3 a 5]
 
@BrianH Set appears to work fine for non-object non-map key containers, so I am looking forward to your detailed explanation.
@rgchris Yes.
 
@MarkI I can see why it's a nicer way to do it—would like to get SWITCH to return the error, but in Rebol 2 it doesn't. Grr.
 
rebol2> block? switch "foo" ["foo" [disarm try [1 / 0]]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== false
 
8:55 PM
@rgchris I know that's not much help :(
 
rebol2> type? disarm try [1 / 0]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: disarm has no value
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
You need the try
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== object!
 
@rgchris agreed, yes. Rebol 3's errors are inactive when made, then made active by doing them explicitly, then deactivated when caught. In contrast, Rebol 2's errors are active when made, but still active when caught, needing to be disarmed explicitly, which converts them to objects rather than really disarming them.
 
8:56 PM
@MarkI Indeed.
@BrianH Is DO the only way to arm an ERROR!?
 
This does make it so you could write an easy disarm function in Rebol 3 if you need to make your code compatible. Which I need to remember to the 'old module.
@rgchris in Rebol 3 it is, but I'd have to check whether there are other DO equivalents that do the same. I know that CAUSE-ERROR calls DO internally in Rebol 3, but doesn't need to in Rebol 2.
 
>> reduce reduce [make error! "Boo!"]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [make error! [
        code: 800
        type: 'User
        id: 'message
        arg1: "Boo!"
        arg2: none
        arg3: none
        near: none
        where: none
    ]]
 
"remember to the 'old module" -> "remember to add to the 'old module"
@rgchris errors are safe to work with in Rebol 3 until they're activated. Makes error handling easier.
 
@BrianH Just wondering if it could be triggered by evaluation via REDUCE.
 
9:04 PM
@rgchris Another do/reduce inconsistency. I'm making a list ...
 
Nope, that was something we were pretty clear about. It's all part of the "errors are your friends" principle. See issue.cc/r3/2133 for details.
We tried to limit the operations which could activate errors. If you find any natives other than DO which can, let me know.
 
@BrianH Interesting! Do you think that this is (or should be) the only evaluative difference between DO and REDUCE?
P.S. It's the only one I've found, my "list of them" message above was joking really.
 
Nope. DO any-function operates differently too (hacks the evaluator to pick up the function's values), and file and URL references are treated as scripts and such. There might be more. DO is considered a lower-level, more hackish function than REDUCE. Off the top of my head I can't recall other differences, but in principle there are expected to be differences.
The evaluation rules within DO block-or-paren should be similar to those in REDUCE block-or-paren though.
It's only DO any-type-other-than-block-or-paren that you would expect to be different.
 
9:20 PM
But evaluation errors are active by default, right?
>> reduce [1 / 0 true]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/math-zero-divide.html
    *** ERROR
** Math error: attempt to divide by zero
** Where: / reduce
** Near: / 0 true
 
>> reduce [try [1 / 0] true]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [make error! [
        code: 400
        type: 'Math
        id: 'zero-divide
        arg1: none
        arg2: none
        arg3: none
        near: [/ 0]
        where: [/ try reduce try do either either either -apply-]
    ] true]
 
Just trying to understand the distinctions...
rebol2> reduce [try [1 / 0]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/math-zero-divide.html
    *** ERROR
code: 400
type: math
id: zero-divide
arg1: none
arg2: none
arg3: none
near: [1 / 0]
where: none
 
9:25 PM
(still prefer Rebol 2's NEAR field :)
 
10:12 PM
@BrianH Right, I should've stated I was thinking of block-or-paren only. Sounds like in that case error!s should be the only difference.
 

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