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12:25 AM
@HostileFork I knew I would like yours way better than mine. Teensy possible improvement question: do you prefer "" over {}?
For me, I've gotten used to seeing those four ticks. But I can't help wishing it could by default be put out (molded) in the braced version.
Not the most horrendous thing we could do to the language.
It's just so much more readable, more literate, in the braced version. Only for the empty string case, of course, but it really needs it then.
 
12:56 AM
>> #[error! [type: 'user id: 'message arg1: "Error constructs working?"]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/user-message.html
    *** ERROR
** user error: "Error constructs working?"
 
@MarkI I've had some crisis of aesthetics wondering about depiction of strings in text. I used to think braces were always better, then they started feeling too heavy most of the time and competing for attention with blocks and parens.
We do need to revisit the question of the copy-on-write and if it's safe in general to say s: {} or if one must generally say s: "" or if we are to follow DocKimbel's "don't waste a series use s: make string! random-number every time you're going to make a string.
As a big fan of not putting random numbers in source code, I object to this latter stance, so at minimum it would have to be s: make string! none to choose a reasonable default.
We'll be in a better position to talk about the consequences of s: {} always copying its argument in a bit.
 
1:15 AM
I think it's because there's no type character. I am OK with %"", but "" all on its own looks distracting.
And {} {} {} clearly wins over "" "" "".
Whether () {} [] wins over () "" [], well, maybe not totally.
 
1:33 AM
loop 100 {
   print (it could have been parens for strings and brackets for groups)
   print [1 + 2] * 3
   print (with braces for blocks...)
}
Lober in a parallel universe.
 
Would you like the language to be able to alter the scanner? Serious question.
 
@HostileFork still no time to test :-( Latest error is module related now ...
** Script error: module does not allow none! for its mixins argument
** Where: catch case load-module set import map-each do-needs module catch case load-module set import map-each do-needs either either either native
** Near: catch/quit [module/mixin hdr code (do-needs/no-user hdr)]
bbl
 
@johnk Ah, a stray one of those... I fixed one but didn't know there was another. fix plus explanation
Unset refinement revocation is very useful, not to mention very chainable.
 
 
2 hours later…
3:24 AM
@RebolBot
obj: object [a: 0 b: 0 c: 0]
set obj [1 2]
obj
>> alive?
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== RESULT is an object of value:
   a               integer!  1
   b               integer!  2
   c               integer!  0
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: alive? has no value
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
So the unfortunate thing about the above is that if objects are required to retain the ordering of their fields, that gets a bit messy when you're trying to do something that has the property of "being able to run for a long time and not consume all available memory"
You could slide all the fields down on a deletion I guess, or mark things as "holes" and then periodically do the sliding when the GC had time or reason to.
 
3:49 AM
I still wonder a bit about NONE. all [true true true] => true suggests none [false false false] => true. There is precedent for none as it's used today in other languages, and it's friendlier than NIL or NULL and doesn't sound "crashy". Just wonder if it's the best word to have chosen.
>> type? a:10
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== url!
 
I know that there are valid URIs like this, but I might suggest that they be relegated to construction syntax.
; if you really, really need this.
#[url:// {a:10}]
They do happen, they are valid, but I'm more concerned about typos with set-words than I am about how easy it is to make literals of them.
 
 
3 hours later…
6:59 AM
>> #[error! [arg1: "look to the left" code: 800]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/user-message.html
    *** ERROR
** user error: "look to the left"
 
>> make error! [arg1: "look to the left" code: 800]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/user-message.html
    *** ERROR
** User error: "look to the left"
 
That ... is ... just ... not ... possible. How can "user" have different capitalizations. Truly astonishing, Rebol is.
 
Hm.
 
7:02 AM
I think I know how it happens. Different prototypes somewhere.
 
So I've just committed a large scale not-very-well-separated-out-but-heavy-asserted change which gives a pretty good set up to go for selflessness.
 
Awesome.
 
Which means it's time to consider what self-ful will mean, and how to handle the new "definitional self"
@RebolBot
obj: object [a: 0 b: 0 c: 0]
protect/hide 'obj/b
set obj [3 4]
probe obj
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-hidden.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: not allowed - would expose or modify hidden values
** Where: set
** Near: set obj [3 4] probe obj
 
That, for example, is something I just changed. That gives back [a: 3 c: 4].
Regardless of whether I like the set-by-position feature or not, the concept being that SELF will be hidden, like the pure local RETURN: is in definitional return, so it will be there but you won't know it from the outside.
I presume it will be done very much the same. make object! [[self:] [self: bind-of 'self (...your data passed to generator here...)]]
What we can do is in compatibility mode just say that if a make object! does not start with a block, then instead of declaring it invalid go ahead and run it the old way.
The weighty idea that object will take a spec and body, as arity 2 now, is a big push for the idea of doing a module-i-fi-cation of <r3-legacy> vs. the hacky way it is done today, and I guess I'm in a reasonable position now to start thinking about it.
I feel that the spec can be very much the same thing as what we have for functions... a way to give descriptions to the members, to specify legal typesets, perhaps even to let assignments quote!
foo: object [:x [<opt> word!] "The word to print"] [
    output: does [either set? :x [print x] [print "word not set"]
]
foo/output ;... prints "word not set"
foo/x: print
foo/output ;...prints "print"
 
7:18 AM
posted on December 06, 2015 by hostilefork

The death of the FRAME! datatype was helpful in terminology, since a "FRAME" was more generally a series which represented the key and value pairings inside an object (or other context-like value). This series was implemented as two distinct series, which were historically known as the "words" and "values". This drives forward a new set of invariants, asserts, names, and rules for a FRA

 
Arguably, the word <transparent> applies equally well for SELF as it does for RETURN. So a transparent object declared inside of another would not define self, hence self would still bind to the outer context.
To me this is too compelling a direction to not make object be arity 2 with a spec, and it's also where the <parent> is going to go... which will mean make obj1 [[...][...]] will be a synonym for make object! [[...][...]]...as with all the other types where the first arg is either a datatype or an example of the type you wish to make.
@RebolBot
x: 10
obj: object [print ["x is" mold x] x: 20]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
x is none
== RESULT is an object of value:
   x               integer!  20
 
It seems to me that being able to seed the values with the ones from the outer context is a good option to have, and is strictly more powerful than not. (e.g. a generator can unset them, but there's no (easy) way to proxy them in).
Which might be a better use of a get-word in the spec.
I guess the generator can do it by evaluating defaults in the generating context. x: 10 foo: object [x (x)] [print ["x is" mold x] x: 20] => x is 10, result x is 20
compose/deep [make object! [super: self:] [super: (self) self: bind-of 'self ...your code here...]]
@giuliolunati see above --^ and ponder! I guess this indicates the decision is indeed made, and object is arity-2 and will hold onto its spec. But will the generator have to name all the members in the frame, else it does not rebind?
;-- imagine an OBJ which is to OBJECT as FUNC is to FUNCTION
a: 10
foo: obj [b c] [
    a: 20
    b: 30
    c: 40
]
probe obj ;-- => [b: 30 c: 40]
print a ;-- => 20
 
7:45 AM
posted on December 06, 2015 by qtxie

FEAT: do not draw window title when doing draw on WINDOW face by qtxie

 
In any case, we'd want object [] [...stuff...] to behave identically more or less to how object [...stuff...] does today, and then have the shortcut has [...stuff...]
Which suggests, as I've been wondering, that does should probably be a gathering primitive. If you don't want it to have a local environment for your set words, either use set 'var or func [] [...].
So the remaining pieces of the puzzle are the meta information... the object attached to the object, as for modules... and then dispatch of user defined method handlers. Also, triggers so that code runs when you set or get fields.
 
 
3 hours later…
10:36 AM
@HostileFork more interesting than the last one:
r3: ../src/core/m-pools.c:1310: Manage_Series: Assertion `current_ptr > ((REBSER**)(GC_Manuals->data))' failed.
Seems to fail on this line importing the 13th command module in the rebolbot start up:
The 13 count seems reasonably robust as moving the modules out of the commands folder which stops them loading allows me to get past this point.
 
10:58 AM
Seems to be working fine with no modules loaded
@RebolBot goodnight
 
@johnk goodnight to you too
 
11:43 AM
@johnk I don't know about more or less interesting, but that isn't one I think I've ever seen triggered. Hmm. Can I test this without needing to log the bot into anything through a simple process?
 
12:06 PM
@HostileFork yes
 
 
5 hours later…
5:32 PM
If you make two any-contexts the same way, you get different contexts, but they compare equal. The same is not true of any-functions.
Is this because contexts "share" their "keylists"?
 
 
2 hours later…
7:49 PM
@MarkI any-context!/any-object! comparison is field by field, unless you're using the hashed lookup as in unique, which goes by the frame pointers--as pointed out in a recent SO question
So if they're comparing equal today it's just because there's no check of the type in the comparison you're looking at, and they go by key/value equality
 
 
3 hours later…
11:00 PM
@HostileFork Thanks for clarifying HF. I worded the question just awfully, so I'm giving you bonus points for your patience too.
 
I just realized something kind of interesting and I don't know exactly what the applications of it are
But a function's paramlist has become a "framelike" thing now, because the 0th element is the function value. That means you can pass functions around just by their paramlist.
I did this on purpose, of course, because that was needed for definitional returns to squeeze the function value into a single pointer
But I seem to recall there being some places where I saw hacks in place precisely because you could not do this.
 
@HostileFork I can only be sure that the applications are going to be awesome HF! Interesting gift to come out of other work.
 
@MarkI Two upcoming "things people can do who aren't me" projects are going through the natives and--if applicable--writing their equivalent bodies as Rebol code... and going through the natives and adding <return> descriptions.
Having the return descriptions will take down the stress of trying to describe what the native itself does in < 80 chars
 
11:32 PM
@johnk I think we need to go ahead and import the CC database to metaeducation/rebol-issues. If there comes a time that formal Rebol management wishes to take it over, it will be given up. It is possible to transfer a repository
We will manage it as planned; Ren-C issues staying separate, cross-cutting concerns in the rebol-issues.
The README will explain as much, point to the transfer, and have a standing offer of ownership to github rebol/rebol.
 

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