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12:01 AM
@Morwenn Something weird about this project here is the real "consciousness" of the machine and the mechanics, essentially keeping the design organized in a way it could be built as a chip/etc. So in that way, being able to mark things off as const helps so that you do good bookkeeping of exactly how many "cells" you are using at any given time
 
Sure.
 
It's geeky but I do think there's an artifact here that's going to interest somebody at some point (beyond those who have taken current / historical interest)
So hopefully it will all be ready for when the interest comes. :-)
 
Strange artifacts always interest people at some point :p
I resurrected a sorting algorithm I found on Geocities a few days ago.
 
@HostileFork Never heard of that one.
 
1:02 AM
PRs not getting pulled into the room for some reason, but, a lot of things going on. END! the datatype just bit the dust, so if you have ever seen some weird garbage and END! was in it, you won't be seeing that again.
As foretold (promised?) when I first had the idea of sneaking short series into series nodes, END is now signaled by the low bit (on either big endian or little endian systems) being zero in the header. This means that any even number (pointers on basically any computer we're bothering to use, byte counts of most structures) can serve as an END marker if it happens to bump up against an array of REBVALs.
I don't know how long it will be between this development and actually doing the series node thing, and I will probably wait a while, given the "extreme" nature of recent changes. Might as well just do some maintenance while waiting to see if anything explodes...
 
 
2 hours later…
3:29 AM
@HostileFork Um ... does that mean there's a 50/50 chance of being able to notice and/or debug such a call?
 
@MarkI Deterministic as far as it will take the same path on the same code in the same ticks.
 
@HostileFork So that's a yes?
 
I make the calls around here, and no
Also if you want to change it to use only one path or the other because you believe it's a result of one or the other you can. But the dual exercise is more valuable in the general case. Because you don't want to wait to be debugging or tracing to find out the framed variant isn't working, or vice versa, or whatever.
I've started using this form of exercise for other things that vary between debug and release, because similarly, I don't like waiting until someone does a release build to get code paths exercised and/or built.
 
@HostileFork So there's no chance of being able to debug such a call? Or, you're saying there would be no point?
 
@MarkI I'm saying yes, there's plenty of opportunities and methods to debug such a call, including the fact that in a repro case it usually (modulo network problems which vary in data, which will always suck on repro) hits the same line of code at the same tick and makes the same decision.
It's based on the tick modulus, not a random number.
 
3:35 AM
I'm trying to ask if you can debug such a call 100% of the time, whether or not the ticks are "in your favour".
It's a simple yes-or-no question.
 
Yes.
I can.
 
Implying I can't, obviously. Can you tell me how to do it for myself?
 
No, implying that I make these decisions largely for my convenience, and under discretion of my judgment of what makes the system most debuggable and healthy.
If I reached a situation where I was having a hard time because the ticks were not in my favor (skewed by network reads that went one way vs another) and I suspected the problem was because of a framed or frameless native branch not going well, I'd take out the thing that chooses the path based on the tick and force it to always take the path I thought was the problem.
 
That is the opposite of debugging. That's redesigning.
 
I don't need to debate this point with you. I need to be able to multiply the spread of exercise of the code branches, and the most natural way at this point in time with the resources available is to do it like this.
When someone hires me a test team who think they can do it better than me and they want to take over, we can discuss it further.
 
3:40 AM
Why always with the shirtiness? I am asking how to debug my code running on your build! I am not criticizing, O sensitive one.
 
Because there's a lot of other stuff to look at! Big changes, interesting ones.
Death of REB_END
And generally speaking the concept of the framelessness, the structure to support it, the ability to edit the native spec for native itself and add refinements to it from within the source...
...which is one of those things that fits into the category of "hey that should just work" and then later "whatever made you think that?"
By and large R3-Alpha has a sort of economy in that respect. "If it wasn't anticipated, there's no code to make it work--and probably pathological choices making it very difficult to make it work."
But, it can pay to be cheap.
@MarkI If you deviate from the formula, I have to retrain you. Step 1: praise and absorb awesomeness. Then step 2: ask random question with semi-nagging overtones.
 
3:57 AM
That's no longer funny.
 
It's important, though. I really don't want to get up and have to explain to you a technique where "because I said so" really should be a satisfying answer, running in circles. I do it because it makes development better, not for your debugging convenience, and the moment you show me a situation you're debugging where it causes a problem and you can show it does then I might be more receptive.
I don't really want to spend time on hypothetical challenges to things I'm confident work, that are debugging tools in the debug build.
If you remember, there was no debug build of Rebol before, so if any of it bothers you just pretend there isn't and build with NDEBUG
Run a parse expression over the code and take all the asserts and comments out, might help w/readability
And yes, if you look at the above flow of what you were saying and how I reacted --^ you will see that it does get to a point where I'm saying "stop it"
And you keep on.
So at some point I'm going to have to say stop it louder and louder.
 
I keep on? You are some piece of work HF.
 
I don't mean volume of typing, I mean repetition of pattern.
 
I repeat patterns? Give me a break!
If you are talking about I keep not praising you every sentence, I confess, that's going to be a pattern.
Currently when debugging (tracing) Rebol code, you can see each frame as it goes by.
With frameless natives, that won't happen, so tracing and debugging will be different.
 
Right, which is why they will always take the path that the method is keeping exercised even when you're not tracing.
When you need to trace or debug it will always be framed, but when you're not it doesn't always run frameless in the debug build and splits its time between the methods to ensure the path the debugging would take would stay working.
 
4:08 AM
Finally! An answer! So if I'm tracing, these "frameless" natives will have their frames put back?
 
There needs to be a bit more work for that, yes. But also there needs to be a real debugger.
Yes, that's why they all have to be hybrids, as mentioned.
I did not realize you didn't catch that bit, and thought you were asking something else that was not reasonable to ask.
The answer to your reasonable question is: yes. The answer to your unreasonable question which you may not have been asking is: yes, to a fairly vast extent, to the extent you would challenge it stop.
I guess I thought it was obvious that the whole reason for having the bounce between frameless and framed was precisely to support continuous functioning of a framed mode for all frameless natives for the cases when needed.
 
This was supposed to be only a lead-in to my real question, but I am too annoyed right now to carry on with it. Maybe someday.
 
@MarkI Well take a shot sometime at source line comments in GitHub. You have a valid point in that I didn't there put in the Trace_Flags check to force out of the frameless branch. The reason is because I wasn't ready yet... which is why there's a single frameless native right now for COMMENT as a beginning.
Going through and vetting the tracing and future-rich debugging to put everything in its right place is planned for the next phase.
But I did give you credit there by saying you were the first to raise this concern, hence you were pinged, and I thought you would have understood that's why I was doing it
 
I can understand something and still want to confirm it. I am not perfect like you :)
 
@MarkI Well, consider it confirmed. Yes--enabling tracing mode and some other conditions will switch off framelessness, as will having any refinements passed.
As I mentioned this means the return of IF/ONLY and friends, because they were killed largely because I didn't think they'd shown enough value to warrant killing frameless performance in my plan... not that they intrinsically lacked merit.
 
4:23 AM
Especially if I am trying to lead somewhere, I try to make each step a well-known and already-understood proposition.
 
Well, if you can't be perfect, I guess it's a good fallback...
Do bear in mind there's always going to be a matter of odds if I've been sitting there looking at something for hours upon days and/or weeks and then talking to people who've spent less time in that consideration.
It's an uneven playfield almost perpetually.
 
I just think you have me pegged as hating everything you do, and that is just completely so not the case.
 
Well, I don't think you think that. I just think that it helps more when you do stay on the side of speaking up and keeping it going, as one of the few who both has the incentive and ability to understand it.
 
I question things, but that is not necessarily criticism.
So it hurts when you call my questions "nagging", as that's just unconstructive criticism of the worst kind.
 
Well, I revise my opinion if what you meant was "where is the disablement of this statistical feature for Trace_Flags"
That is an excellent question.
 
4:28 AM
Thank you.
Peace out.
 
However, I would make the case that it should (perhaps in retrospect) have been obvious that was coming, and the reason it isn't in is because there's only one frameless native that never calls anything, COMMENT, and I was going to come back to that as evidenced by the very existence of the feature.
e.g. the statistical dual path exists due to a fundamental recognition of the need for all "frameless" natives to be able to function framed, an observation first made (effectively) by you.
 
QUOTE maybe?
 
Well lots don't call things, I meant "I've implemented exactly one frameless native whose trace behavior doesn't concern me besides not crashing"
e.g. once it gets to the DO_NEXT inside one of these guys, yes, the stakes raise
But we see more or less in comment what the floor or limit is of the performance benefit... sort of
I say sort of because there is another wild card besides just the frame build and tear-down overhead, and this is actually not something exclusively available now to frameless natives...which is (for instance) the extra GC-protected cell living in the call frame that is now actually the "do state"
@MarkI Did you see the new rebirth of the chunk stack as generic value array service?
That's because the fixed size portion of the call frame is this struct that holds the evaluator state variables. Comes with an endearing property... a longjmp blows them all away...including anything you might have thought you needed to free in a call frame.
It actually is an endearing property, so long as you know it's there and compensate for it.
But yeah, so long as we're having a feeling sharing moment, this stuff is pretty weird reshaping...and maybe it's just me because I've never really done this kind of thing before. And maybe some Forth person or otherwise would say "been there done that".
So even if it's just computer language refrigerator art I still want someone to say it's awesome, if they're in the business to know.
Things I thought I'd never find use of acceptable: setjmp/longjmp
And here I am, maniacally gleeful at seeing its performance at blowing away things under "carefully controlled conditions" (I need to write a paper about the caveats with what I've decided count as "carefully controlled conditions")
 
4:59 AM
When I was getting interested in these types of optimizey things once, earl said "oh no, not you too."
 
 
1 hour later…
6:26 AM
@HostileFork Thank you very much. It is not listed here rebol.com/docs/dictionary.html so I did not even know it was there.
 
rebol2> help take
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
USAGE:
    TAKE value /part length /last

DESCRIPTION:
     Copies and removes from series. (Modifies)
     TAKE is a function value.

ARGUMENTS:
     value -- (Type: series port none)

REFINEMENTS:
     /part -- Limits to a given length or position
         length -- (Type: number series port pair)
     /last -- Take it from the tail end

(SPECIAL ATTRIBUTES)
     catch
 
@iArnold Seems to be there since Rebol2, or at least that version...
@iArnold Does the CLEAR LAST behavior make sense to you, as it is?
(It is the natural consequence of the composition of those operations.)
If you wanted to do that you could do CLEAR BACK TAIL, because then you would get a position in the input series.
I wonder if something like FINAL or PENULTIMATE :-/ would be useful to contract BACK TAIL
Too bad PENULTIMATE is such a weird word in english.
@johnk Crazy updates today, would be interested if RebolBot still works after it too... I only have so many test codebases...
 
@HostileFork As long as there is this alternative. It serves the case you want to keep the block for later use, or just as an empty block.
 
@iArnold Well clear last just can't behave any differently than it does, being my point. LAST gave you a block, the series you picked it out of is gone by the time you get to clear.
 
6:34 AM
But I think removing the last block is the expected behaviour. So I can live with it like it is.
 
It can't be, as long as LAST gives you a value and you've lost access to the series in which it lived.
If LAST was a position then sure, clear last could work... but last mirrors first
It's a value, selected out of the series, and the series it was selected from is gone by the time you apply whatever next operation you have to it.
 
And what is the difference with 'remove that does the same thing.
gtr bbl (tomorrow?)
 
@iArnold Well, think about it, just the mechanics. CLEAR LAST blk doesn't give CLEAR the access to blk required to remove anything from it.
 
 
9 hours later…
4:06 PM
Perhaps obviously, framelessness shows the most obvious wins on things where most of their implementation is dispatch. The more work a function does, the less significant taking away the dispatch cost is.
So all the little "you'd think that could be extremely cheap" functions like "is this a string or not?" ones are the big winners who double in speed.
 
5:07 PM
Just happened to notice that rebol.info domain has expired
@rgchris fyi ^^^^^
On side note an interesting link - pointersgonewild.com/2015/11/28/…
In particular read comments :)
 
5:25 PM
@draegtun Yikes! Owner has been notified...
@RebolBot alive?
 
 
5 hours later…
10:34 PM
@rgchris rebol.info is a bit of a pain. @onetom set it up, but it seems to have expired. I think he gave me access, but it doesn't look good. I have rebol-lang.com which we could use instead?
 
 
1 hour later…
11:48 PM
@johnk @draegtun He's been in touch, it should be back up shortly.
 
I am new to learning Rebol and I am (to some degree) teaching myself. I'm intrigued by the idea of creating desktop applications with the Rebol GUI. Does anyone know a good place to get started with that? Thank you :)
 

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