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12:22 AM
Good programming music:
 
12:38 AM
posted on April 23, 2014 by fork

[Bug] In the Rebol world, a PATH is a foundational type. So when something is shipped in the box with a name like SPLIT-PATH that contributes to confusion, compared to something like SPLIT-FILENAME. It might even be argued that the generality of PARSE is so much greater than trying to figure out exactly what the rules are someone is trying to capture that having people write explicitly: PARS

 
 
2 hours later…
2:57 AM
@rgchris any time to think about the wiki for our QM instance?
 
3:39 AM
@GrahamChiu Think—yes, do—no. Have had some other things take priority, will get back on it.
Incidently, have had cause to try RUn—seems pretty decent so far.
 
3:53 AM
Took a little tweaking, but made it a shell script that is called in turn by a .test shell script. The .test file is otherwise the same as outlined in the documentation. Can build tests and run them from the text editor :)
 
@rgchris Hm, how many scripts do you have on scripts.rebol.info?
Putting them on a case-by-case basis?
 
It's just a pass-through to rebol.org at the moment. Until the data from rebol.org can be assimilated.
 
4:17 AM
@rgchris Or, just use the rebol editor :)
 
5:06 AM
Undoing a background change in CSS on a div and applying a new background that's not opaque requires injecting a div above the div you want to apply to, climbing the hierarchy, shifting the texture parent offset relative... aaaargh
Sticks and glue!
 
5:59 AM
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 328 so chat away!
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 328 so chat away!
 
6:10 AM
posted on April 24, 2014 by rebolek

[Comment] Another Forkism. SPLIT-FILENAME sounds like it should split filename to filename and suffix, not to split path to directory and filename. And then this: "I suggest an audit so that nothing in the box uses the word "path" to describe a filesystem path." - let's remove the fog: "nothing uses word "path" to describe a path." Does it make sense?

 
@rebolbot alive?
 
ahh.. thought that there might be two of you here today
 
6:33 AM
@grahamchiu there were two! Fixed now.
 
@johnk before my test then :)
 
Not sure how that happened as the shut up command is pretty final. It exits the bot with a specific return code which kills the wrapper script.
 
posted on April 24, 2014 by fork

[Comment] Beyond the conflicts with path!, by your logic split-path interpreted as file path should not accept file leafs and instead break the path into a block of parts splitting out each directory as its own component. You're ignoring the basic premise here that system/script/path coming back with a url is bad and attacking an off the cuff name alternative. I even suggested parse as being a

 
@rebolek If forkism refers to a concern about consistency, forward-thinking, and a lack of adherence to dogma of random incoherent decisions for the sake of saving a few characters (in the absence of any metric study of whether the few random shortcuts previously picked delivered the highest efficiency to letters ratio)...
Then sign me up.
Sounds like a movement I want to be part of.
There is already trouble of people getting what a Rebol path is, why it's called that, etc.
As with port, if Rebol is going to create a worldview where the word is used differently to how people come in knowing it... That's okay, but consistency pays off.
So that does justify scrutinizing system/script/path and split-path. It does. Really.
If you want to discourage me to the point of quitting, you might. I don't think it would help. You can try and see.
But I continue to ask to argue ideas not personality. Make your points as points, and as reactions to the posted content.
"I don't personally see a problem with the path ambiguity, because..."
(Insert rationale here that I cannot write for you because it involves not having a problem with something I think is problematic)
"...and therefore, if system/script/path returned a url or file that is coherent under my rationale."
More like that, please?
If you find yourself at the point where your reaction to an idea is coming from being reactionary to who proposed it, and think that dismissing it due to that is enough justification, that is problematic and you admitted that your reaction to local: was not considered enough
 
7:02 AM
My problem with some of your ideas is that while you're trying to make the language more consistent (from your point of view), you're sacrificing comprehensibility. I don't want to get to the point when the language may be formally correct, but totally indecipherable like some lawyer lingo.
 
I think that as we discuss if things like flatten should be in the box, we should also consider if things like split-path might not should be, regardless of what it's called
Which is actually my leaning about that instance
 
Why should split-path be removed?
 
Lego alligator reasons. The vagaries of its definition pale when compared to parse.
And path is a word used in Rebol rather specifically, so it would be two birds with one stone.
You wind up picking elements out of block positions instead of naming them in capture variables... Or just skipping if you don't want them...a parse line can extend and adapt. Teaching someone parse actually teaches something. Learning split-path is a random esoteric nongeneral wart
And its name also happens to be poor
 
In R2 SDK, there was Rebol/Base version, which was Rebol/Core without any mezzanines. Having this is much better then randomly removing useful functions from Core.
 
Well why can't we have the discussion reasonably? When did you and split-path get married, and why?
 
7:13 AM
@HostileFork Sorry, but this is example of reasonable discussion?
 
Just the facts, as they say on Dragnet.
My CureCode post was reasonable. Yours was tangential, invented the word forkism, reactionary, did not address the points, and I would say it was unreasonable.
 
The facts are, that you don't care about backwards compatibility at all.
And I don't mean backwards compatibility with R2 but with R3.
 
I divide breaking changes into classes
They range in severity.
 
These are just ideas being cast out ... if they have enough clear merit, then people will adopt them. We shouldn't inhibit discussion because of disagreement.
5
Let's not attack the messenger.
 
I would say that split-path becoming undefined from the default distibution is a very easy fix for those needing it.
So no, that kind of thing does not concern me one bit if there is a better answer that is more coherent.
I have adjusted my stance on some other things. I used to think no one used binary join, it had no point, and wanted the word for a "better rejoin"
I thought that but decided binary join might be useful after all.
And that would break things badly, while combine has hope. So it's not that I don't want to take the best solution if I see it.
Just got to see it first. As @GrahamChiu says, let's keep it at the ideas, concerns, and analysis level.
I don't have NO interest in preserving existing Rebol3 code, but it's about weighting. Carl wrote about that and his own shift in bias when the FUNCTION change went through
We have a little window of time here to work out some basics for Rebol3/Red. It's not good to waste it.
Anyway, focus on the questions... Path and Port... How to be Rebellious in using the words in a consistent way that new users won't get beaten up by
 
 
2 hours later…
9:39 AM
@HostileFork Right now I'm writing some function and guess what, I need SPLIT-PATH there. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against changing system/script/path to for example system/script/location (even if I don't see the point), I'm just against removing SPLIT-PATH from Core. It's something that's used too often so it has it's place there.
I think that people are able to understand that there's path! datatype and then there's file-path. Especially in language that uses same word for ability to do something and tin container.
 
9:53 AM
Another thought to add to the mix. We now have Gregg's split so maybe it would be logical to extend it to have file/path splitting
 
>> split %dir/other-dir/file.ext %/
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== [%dir %other-dir %file.ext]
 
@johnk Good idea. Seems to work.
I guess it would need a mode where the path is left intact.
 
Good thinking! Split-path is simpler than having to think out a PARSE construction for this pretty basic function.
split/path is also in line with Rebol way imho.
 
Cool. I'll add the suggestion to cc
 
10:13 AM
posted on April 24, 2014 by johnk

[Comment] As discussed on SO: Gregg's split is a logical place for this function, and it close to working without modification. >> split %dir/other-dir/file.ext %/ == [%dir %other-dir %file.ext] Options include split/path or split/file as refinements to match the existing split-path behaviour.

 
 
3 hours later…
1:37 PM
Split/path doesn't address the naming property. But split/tail or something like that might be a general facility for getting two parts.
But I still say the problem is, now you're getting a block and labeling by first and second picking, when names would be clearer
And secondly, adding more refinements to split starts making it seem like it should become a dialect, and there is no point making a split dialect, because you just wind up reinventing parse.
 
Can someone explain me how and why a CELL! struct is casted to a BYTE-PTR!
Also why CELL! is 128 bits and what exactly is a CELL!
 
2:08 PM
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 1726 so chat away!
 
Good afternoon from Congo-Brazza!
I just met a computer scientist, network administrator, and I just convinced him to join the Redbolution!
I am just doing a small demo, showing a bit what our bot can do...
Mr Gatien is right by my side, I hope he will be able to join us here and chat!
@RebolBot
print reverse "Bonjour"
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
Bonjour
 
We all would like to know! :-)
Well a cell! is 4 times 32 bits memory space
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
ruojnoB
 
A bit of Frebol, now:
 
2:23 PM
The byte-ptr! is then pointing to the first part (word!) of the cell!
It is not 100% clear to me either, I must confess.
 
@RebolBot
ecrit: :print
boucle: :loop
renverse: :reverse
raboute: :rejoin
i: 0 boucle 4 [i: i + 1 ecrit raboute [renverse "ruojnoB" " pour la " i "ème fois"]]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
Bonjiur pour la 1ème fois
ruijnoB pour la 2ème fois
Bonjiur pour la 3ème fois
ruijnoB pour la 4ème fois
 
Bonjiur??
 
Hm, the behaviour of reverse seems a bit... unpredictable...
It was supposed to be "Bonjour"...
:-s
 
It was very consistent
And you did no copy so the string was reversed and printed and reversed and printed ...
 
2:26 PM
Ah!!
You're very right: a beginner's mistake!
My entire fault...
Let me try again:
 
foei! :-)
 
@iArnold ??
 
tssk! beginnersmistake! ;-)
 
@RebolBot
ecrit: :print
boucle: :loop
renverse: :reverse
raboute: :rejoin
salutation: copy "ruojnoB"
i: 0 boucle 4 [i: i + 1 ecrit raboute [renverse salutation " pour la " i "ème fois"]]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
Bonjour pour la 1ème fois
ruojnoB pour la 2ème fois
Bonjour pour la 3ème fois
ruojnoB pour la 4ème fois
 
2:28 PM
??
 
Dutch word for saying "shame on you!"
 
You're very right. I'm ashamed.
So now our Bot reverse the salutation each time, as it is considered as a pointer.
 
Better go and use Red, that language only has beginners so all mistakes are allowed LOL!
 
Yes!
Mr Gatien will come to stackoverflow (now he has no choice, he is sitting by my side right now...):
I explain the system of reputation, and so on.
 
Point to the question posed or answers to vote up.
 
3:22 PM
@rebolek The point is not about whether people can handle cognitive dissonance or not. The point is about the burden of fighting the uphill battle of getting people to appreciate what a Rebol PATH! even is (hard in the first place). Then once you've done it they see some code that says split-path and are wondering if that's what you use to turn a/b/c into [a b c] or if it has some meaning like that.
 
@HostileFork I don't know? Is it really such a problem? Have you had hard time explaining it to someone?
 
The "port" issue is a real issue. But it's winnable, if you can paint a picture that says "no, it's sockets that got it wrong..." and convince people that "What you call a port is actually a port NUMBER" and "Socket is a weird, lousy word that isn't as good"... then great.
But if you're going to win that argument, then you need to be careful about keeping the Rebolverse's usage of that port number as port-number...not just going "oh, just call it the port in the protocol...people will figure it out"
"port doesn't compete with port! or port?, it can be the port number and just be shorter, everyone understands it anyway."
"I like brevity and port-number is too much for me to type the once-in-a-blue-moon-that-I-type-it, nothing wrong with inconsistency, the world is inconsistent and confusing...why not embrace it."
because the point of design, and making GOOD things, is not to just go with the status quo of the world being confusing and inconsistent, but to fight chaotic trends and build elegant and refined things.
 
do you mean sub-port in port scheme?
I agree with @GrahamChiu that it should be probably called socket
 
3:48 PM
@rebolek My sample set is small. Maybe if Rebol had users because it was easier to grasp and understand, there would be more people to explain it to.
Something I have learned, through all kinds of attempts to make things obvious to people... be that graphics, or be that trying to explain what blackhighlighter does, and I think I'm being totally obvious is that people have a hard enough time coming to new ideas.
You obviously represent a very small portion of the population in terms of what you accept or do not accept. You are unusual and happy to be so. I'm not trying to take away great things from you that you enjoy, I'm trying to make the great things you enjoy more accessible to others who may not be as weird as you.
If there really were no other way then split-path would have to be split-path and that's just that.
However, I do not think there is any reason you can't have everything you want, besides 100% compatibility out of the box with the Rebol3 interpreter alpha that was once released as closed source but is now open source and thus available for greater review for coherence.
And yes, I've had trouble getting people to understand what a path! is.
I don't want it to be any harder than it is already. If we can write something out that is very easy to understand which is "Rebol uses the word PATH to mean something specific..." and then not have to fight with that, and call things FILE! and URL! when that's what we mean, then good.
But you see it's a little bit hard to understand when you write something like split-file because already we're up a little bit of a creek as what Rebol calls FILE! is not an abstraction representing the interactions with the file... PORT! takes care of that (C++ calls them IOSTREAM, etc.)
Rebol can be very confusing...so it's better to focus sharply on how to help people grasp the new strange ideas in it that have actual merit.
And loosen the defenses on the strange things that don't. This bias is what helped us get rid of FUNCT because FUNC vs. FUNCT vs. FUNCTION as it was simply wasn't any good.
I wonder what else Rebol path could have been called.
 
4:57 PM
Anyway, we're best served when we get to the meat of a discussion and understand things, like "why is there a get-path! type when a get-word! could just be in the first path slot, or a set-word! in the last slot for set-path!"
>> type? quote foo/baz/(bar + mumble):
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== set-path!
 
>> type? quote :(foo + baz)/bar/mumble
 
@HostileFork Can you elaborate on that?
 
And we see that good arguments come along, then fall down...and we can fix things one by one, with coherence. I don't think coherence should be conflated with "legalistic consistency at all costs"
 
@HostileFork Looks like a bug to me
I'm not sure about that.
 
5:00 PM
Some of us have been pushing for (a + b)/c/d to be a valid path, as a/b/(c + d) is.
And that if you really want parens followed by a refinement, or whatever, you put a space.
Ladislav has a write up on this
 
I'm really not sure about that.
(a + b) as first item in path doesn't make any sense
other things can
 
Well, it isn't about the contents
Maybe I've redefined + to be some kind of selector and a + b returns an object
The path validity is an independent issue
 
Yes.
 
>> type? second [(a + b)/c]
 
I don't know, I never needed it but probably it should be allowed.
 
5:02 PM
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== refinement!
 
>> type? second [a/(b + c)]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== none!
 
I've needed it
 
Or throw an error if it's not.
that (a + b)/c are two values is wrong
 
That's really the only point
Nothing to do with addition. Remember the message is that these are tinkertoys for dialect construction, so they should be good tinkertoys
Whether I need it or not is less important than giving people a consistent, learnable, adaptable tool that doesn't fall down when they're trying to make stuff with it. My need is why I found it, not the justification for it.
Okay I think I'm going to declare myself officially done with this copylight thing
Make the screencast, post it... somewhere... let it go
 
5:20 PM
@HostileFork I don't see Carl in yesterday's history, so I guess that the delegation issue still isn't solved...
 
@rebolek Not just yet. :-/ Still trying.
I think it will make a very significant difference.
But these things do not happen overnight, and as I've said, there is good and bad to the not-happening-overnight aspect.
But we're at a point now where it simply needs to happen.
 
5:35 PM
So on amazon EC2 you get 30GB free storage, I guess that's across all your instances? So you could have 30GB on one instance, or 30 1GB instances?
 
5:59 PM
Since when?
 
I dunno. Since I just signed up.
 
Free tier 5 gb
 
"30 GB of Amazon Elastic Block Storage, plus 2 million I/Os and 1 GB of snapshot storage*" aws.amazon.com/free
I can't get the apache test page to come up. It wgets locally but I opened the security settings and still can't get it from outside.
Type Protocol PortRange Source => HTTP TCP 80 0.0.0.0/0
Set that up, rebooted
 
Ebs storage used by the instance
 
@HostileFork EBS storage is independent of EC2 instances. So yes, you could have 30GB on one instance, or 30 1GB EC2 instances.
 
6:06 PM
@earl Any idea on why an Ubuntu 14 installation that can access the server locally wouldn't be happy enough with that inbound HTTP security group setting?
 
@HostileFork Webserver bound to the non-localhost interface? Security group assigned to the instance? Are you using the right IP?
 
@earl I only have one instance, it gives you a "VPC ID" which is different from the "instance ID". I had only one choice so I assumed that must be it.
 
Ip should be same as the one used by ssh
 
There's only one IP address, it works for SSH
 
There is also an internal IP address I think
 
6:10 PM
@HostileFork VPC ID sounds like it's a virtual private cloud instance.
 
@earl Hm, just found there's a hard to see combo box for changing from VPC to EC2 in security groups
Perhaps that is it
No, that's just a filter, it doesn't offer me any option besides this VPC ID
But interesetingly, when the filter is set on EC2 security groups, there's nothing
 
On the instances overview, click your instance and have a look at the details panel at the bottom.
Fifth item in the right column should be "Security groups", telling you what security group is in effect for that instance.
 
It says "VPC ID vpc-93b05ef6"
 
If you have a VPC ID, that's probably rather bad, unless you wanted to launch a VPC instance.
 
Hm, view rules says launch-wizard-1 and only TCP 22.
Not on purpose.
 
6:16 PM
So There you go. No HTTP rule in the security group applying to the instance.
 
Well, I can only view but cannot add there. I can add in security groups, and the only option is to the VPC ID
Hm, oh I can click on that launch-wizard-1 and get somewhere new (?)
 
If you just click the link to the security group "launch-wizard-1" from there, you should be able to click the "inbound" tab and edit to add a new rule to the right security group. No?
 
Why ec2 and not azure?
 
@earl Okay, thanks... I got it
It seems my mistake was following some directions involving adding a security group, when what I really wanted to do was add a rule to an existing security group
@RebolBot Generally not many people I know talk about azure. Graham uses EC2, seems @earl knows some about it... I'm not trying to trailblaze or rock any boats here
 
@HostileFork Do you believe it's normal to be not trying to trailblaze or rock any boats here}?
 
6:23 PM
Not here, no probably
But my old server isn't getting updates, things have been breaking, it's time to go ahead and find some kind of new solution.
 
5 free web sites in azure that persist after the free 1 year period
Rebol.info runs on a free tier at ec2 until the first bill comes in
 
I see our trusty RebolBot is getting kickbacks from Microsoft! :-)
Well, 1GB is a little tight, as disk storage goes.
 
Redbot and I run on ec2
 
I'm not opposing to paying for the service for my own stuff, it isn't really the problem; I'd rather a paid easy solution than a free difficult one.
 
Have you started a micro instance?
 
6:32 PM
"Instance type: t1.micro"
 
Ok
 
Can you grab a snapshot from EC2 and put it on Azure and vice versa?
 
Not known
 
Looks like it. Questions seem mostly to do with what to do using an optimized instance like the AMI thing.
I'm not. Just Ubuntu
 
@HostileFork Unless you think you'll need the great flexibility AWS affords you, I'd also suggest having a look at Digital Ocean (note: that's a referral link). I'm quite a fan of EC2 for the flexibility, but Digital Ocean sure wins big on simplicity (when EC2's flexibility is simply not neccessary). It's also cheaper, giving you a 512MB RAM/20GB SSD/1 Core instance for $5/mo.
 
6:37 PM
Amazon machine instances are like custom distros
 
@earl Thanks, I'll take a look... just kind of trying to evaluate what to do about my current VPS
 
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 1052 so chat away!
 
LOL
The chat from SO have improved :)
Nice FAQ. Too bad that this room can't help me. =(
see you later folks ^.^
 
Carl is using linode for rebol.net
 
@MichelAyres Are you sure we cannot help you? Maybe we will not help you create your solution in php but we could have something way better than that!
 
6:52 PM
Maybe he should move too
 
@Rebolbot You have one of those AI experiences again?
 
@iArnold What do you mean?
@iArnold Please continue.
 
@johnk @GrahamChiu You know Rebolbot a bit, why is it posting? One of you guys logged in on the account?
 
7:19 PM
@iArnold It's about mysql with php and pdo. I'm getting some help in the php room. Thanks for the concern =)
 
@RebolBot do print [reverse {seryAlehciM@} "ok come back any time!"]
 
@iArnold Please continue.
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
@MichelAyres ok come back any time!
 
 
3 hours later…
10:07 PM
@iArnold It's not me, but I think your analysis is correct.
 
Still awake here
@rebolbotski ;-)
(Well awake as long as I can, listening to youtube.com/watch?v=T_NHIP-yLJ0 )
I must post that to muzak on altme
@johnk @GrahamChiu Is it always as quiet this time of earth-cycle?
 
@iArnold try altme
 
Also very very quiet (dont tell!)
Maybe the wrong world! Perhaps Syllable World has picked up again!
(Syllable is a great OS, one day it will become the BeOS/Haiku of its time!)
 
10:23 PM
@iArnold Are you related to kaj ??
 
I have met Kaj in person in Amersfoort.
 
So, are you working on red or rebol ?
Should fill in your SO profile ...
 
Main interest in Red. Mainly because it took on before Rebol R3 was open sourced.
And the possibility to compile and in that way make commercially interesting software.
 
Red/system or red?
@RebolBot who is iArnold?
 
I must confess I am a Red/System fan
 
10:33 PM
@GrahamChiu Sorry, I don't know anything about iArnold yet. But ...
 
@iArnold So, do you know much about interfacing libraries from rebol3 using red/system?
I think Kaj has done this.
@rebolbot who is grahamchiu?
 
@GrahamChiu I know this about grahamchiu and their local time is 25-Apr-2014/10:34:23
 
No Kaj is the expert (and lead dev for Syllable) I am just a (former) freelance developer with an interest in various OS' es and programming languages.
Good morning Graham ;-)
 
@iArnold Good day ( ? evening )
 
Night here. (Misses is out for a nightshift so I am staying up late like in the 'old days')
 
 
1 hour later…
11:39 PM
0
Q: How to clear a Rebol console?

WayneTsuiIs there any way to clear a Rebol console? (Maybe there are too many things in the console and I don't want to open a new one ;-) or I need to print some things in a clear console). I know we can call cls in Windows or clear in Linux to clear the console. But how can I do it in Rebol, just in c...

 
Version 0 of Rebol3 interpreter for SL4A is out there: Rebol3ForAndroid
4
 
0
A: How to clear a Rebol console?

giuliolunatiIn my systems simply hit Ctrl-L. But may depends on terminal....

 

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