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12:03 AM
I've always found it easiest to explain NOT by translating it to an English sentence with a comma before the following clause, like "not this, that". If there are examples in the NOT docs that use that metaphor, along with explanations about why it shouldn't advance, it would make sense.
@HostileFork NOT AHEAD should be allowed, for the same reason AHEAD is, and with that meaning. It would increase clarity in some rules, make them sound a bit more like English.
 
@BrianH Nope, does Rebol3 have such feature? If you have suggestions about that, it could be a useful feature indeed.
 
@DocKimbel Nope.
 
@DocKimbel nope, but it just occurred to me that it might be a good one.
 
Should be relatively easy to add, though.
(Devil's in the details, always. In this case, a bit of design, most likely.)
 
@earl Yeah, easy to implement probably, but coming up with the right syntax might be more challenging. ;)
 
12:08 AM
@DocKimbel Ideally, it could just be analogous to the CHARSET builder function. (For starters.)
 
parse "123" [set digit [#"0" - #"9"] some digit]
 
@DocKimbel I'll write up a ticket. The main problem is that multiple iterations would have overhead in Rebol compared to making the bitset ahead of time, but we might minimize that by having PARSE evaluate the expression directly. It should have identical syntax to the CHARSET builder, including requiring the charset keyword.
 
More like:
parse "123" [some charset [#"0" - #"9"]]
 
@earl that's better.
 
Not sure about the usefulness in general code, but it's cool for one-liners.
 
12:11 AM
Well I think NOT AHEAD and AHEAD solve the problem for me, but it seems that it invites confusion to still have AND and allow NOT without AHEAD. But if that has precedent in formal TDPL then I guess one can have their cake and eat it too. I'm not concerned so much about people writing unclear code (you'll never stop that) but offering tools so clear code can be written.
 
@DocKimbel more useful in Red, due to it being compilable and cacheable.
 
@DocKimbel what do you say? Teach NOT as NOT AHEAD and stick AND and solo NOT in the footnotes?
 
@DocKimbel does Red have a word type yet, or lit-words? I just implemented a fix for those in Rebol, one of Ladislav's requests.
 
@BrianH Probably yes, but still a significant development cost for a discutable gain.
@HostileFork I have no opinion yet on how to teach Parse's NOT, sorry. :) It requires some thinking.
 
@HostileFork put them in the doc pages for those operations, and make it clear they are synonyms, just there to make different code patterns easier to understand, increasing clarity.
 
12:14 AM
@BrianH We have all word types. We don't have typesets though yet.
 
@DocKimbel not high-priority, maybe even 0-priority for Rebol, agreed.
 
@HostileFork Will be interesting to see how that approach turns out. My guess would be that plain AND (AHEAD) and NOT are actually easier to teach than the NOT AHEAD and AHEAD combination.
Still, interesting & valid approach.
 
The main reason I'd support NOT AHEAD is so we have a clear meaning for what those operations mean when combined - NOT takes precedence when you're deciding whether to match or not. That would make it so we could support combining those operations instead of having it be an error. Same goes for NOT AND or AND NOT.
@RebolBot do parse [a] [and not 'b skip]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== true
 
See, that works. Let me try the other way.
@RebolBot do parse [a] [not and 'b skip]
 
12:19 AM
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== true
 
Good, NOT takes precedence. Same would go for NOT AHEAD if we made AHEAD a synonym for AND.
 
It seems in the grand scheme of things, Rebol adding AHEAD and Red adding AND is enough to give people freedom of choice. Sound fair @DocKimbel @BrianH? Then it comes down to documentation and emphasis.
 
@HostileFork ticket for that, for Rebol: issue.cc/r3/2095
 
With that settled and moved on, we can focus on collect and more interesting design issues
 
Red's PARSE COLLECT seems good to me, though KEEP could use an ONLY option. Add it to Rebol?
I also want to add the features missing from Rebol's PARSE CHANGE and INSERT to Red, to hopefully prompt their inclusion into Rebol as well.
 
12:26 AM
@BrianH the sooner its added the sooner we get experience with its application and any tweaks. Carl said he liked it and wondered if anyone had done it. I had some usability questions that I don't remember off the top of my head.
 
@HostileFork are you taking about INSERT (expression) and such? That's what I was talking about.
Gotta run, company drinking occasion beckons. BBL.
 
@BrianH Cheers... cyal8r
 
 
2 hours later…
2:27 AM
posted on February 21, 2014 by Jacob

I would like to talk on stack overflow, however, I have 0 rep(just joined).  So... start giving me rep bumps from the group!

 
2:51 AM
posted on February 21, 2014 by Brian Dickens

You have to ask or answer some questions first, and we also have to know what your account is.  :-) The questions or your answers don't have to be about Rebol/Red.  However do take note that StackOverflow Q&A is not a discussion forum.  When you ask something it's supposed to generally be able to ha

 
 
1 hour later…
4:16 AM
Very annoyed with myself. ec2 box backs up to my laptop via rsync. I forgot to disable the job while tethering through my phone. 0.25GB over my limit and phone company now want $126. Ouch.
 
@earl has your timer made it into any other builds yet
@johnk eek!
Tell them it was a virus.
I pay $99 for 12Gb of phone data every 6 months
 
Could have been a lot worse, the phone cut in as I went over the limit and took me offline. Unfortunately it was a bit delayed
Plan I am on is dirt cheap. $12 per month for 1.5GB + plenty of phone and sms calls. The issue is they charge you through the nose if you go over their limits.
 
Mine just stops if I go over the limit
 
I have been doing data over mobiles since 9600 baud IR connections and this is my first expensive mistake
Maybe I should be changing provider ...
 
the best way to back up is to do a snap shot of the Ec2 box I think
using the AWS api
 
4:21 AM
I wonder if that is free? The rsync approach works well, I might just change my cron job to run it at night
 
well, you only pay for storage
15c per Gb I think
it would cost even less if you just a few selected directories to S3
 
Sounds worth looking into. Probably about time for them to charge us for the ec2 instance as it has been almost a year. Last I looked it was going to be $35 for 2 more years which is fairly insignificant
 
@johnk Nope
that's the base charge. You need to also pay per hour.
1.5 c per hour I think
Anyway, work out what it is and I'll send you 50%.
 
You're right - a 1 year 24x7 micro is ~$128. Maybe we should make a move to the staging.rebol.net box that carl set up
 
@johnk or we just keep doing what we are doing. I'd prefer to be separate from Carl's stuff
 
4:32 AM
Quite a few of us were given ssh access to rebol.net so we just have to rely on the bills being paid. We can always keep a backup of course.
 
@johnk oh? Didn't know about that.
 
Just looking up how long we have left
Ok, we have until 30th May to come up with a plan
I seem to recall the rebol.net box was linode so should perform well
Have to head off - catch you around @GrahamChiu
 
Since these are community projects, perhaps Carl should no longer shoulder the costs himself.
 
5:24 AM
@GrahamChiu I'd like us to buy out the rebol.net and rebol.org domains from him, get it for 10 years or whatever the "long time" is. And yes, figure out how we pay for the hostig ourselves. The only problem is that there's no "Rebol foundation".
 
5:41 AM
54
Q: Which Visual C++ file types should be committed to version control?

JonathanWhich Visual Studio \ Visual C++ file types should be committed to version control? In my project I have the following file types: aps cpp exe filters h ico idb ipch lastbuildstate lib log manifest obj pch pdb rc rc2 res sdf sln suo tlog txt user vcxproj I would greatly appreciate a short reas...

If one leaves the sandbox of Rebol and Red, it is easy to get quickly frustrated with the sprawling insanity of files that get thrown in the middle of your source. Doing an "out of source" build shouldn't be something you have to bend over backwards to get and modify how you go about it at every release. It should be the default and you should have to do something special to work around it and actually put build products or IDE config files into your source directories.
Of all people, you'd think programmers who are building dev tools would understand that this is... important?
 
@HostileFork Was that being worked on?
 
7
Q: How to share control of links/domains on an open source project with many collaborators?

HostileForkI'm trying to help the Rebol project re-engineer its web presence now that it is open source as Apache 2 — after nearly two decades of proprietary license! The language's creator currently has registrar control of the rebol.com/.org/.net sites. He wishes to keep control of the rebol.com domain ...

Carl is okay with handing over rebol.net and rebol.org to the community, but who is that, exactly? @onetom tried to set up rebol.info as a testbed for how people could collaborate as subdomain allocators on a top-level-domain. All these things are easier with benevolent dictators at the helm.
 
Rebol Foundation
Perhaps we can try and setup a foundation to see if we can at least organise ourselves
 
@GrahamChiu I'd hoped that it could be the [Rebol and Red] foundation, with interests separated from "REBOL Technologies (rebol.com)"; and "Red Language R&D Corporation (red-lang.com)";...
It seems to me that although you might not be able to unify the commercial identities and mindsets of Carl and Nenad as people in a grand sense... now we're talking about two open source languages... it would seem that if the paperwork is going to be filed for community organization that could be done just once.
 
5:59 AM
Since we're asking Carl to hand over to this organisation, I'd think we'd have more success if we just kept it Rebol
we can make the aims flexible enough to cover Red later on
But Red doesn't have any assets at present to manage does it?
 
Well, it has a great logo and logotype. :-P About to make the cover of a print magazine with 2million subscribers. Their remark on receiving the CMYK .PSD and Adobe Illustrator file: "Thank you Nenad, the quality of logo is very good."
Note to universe: Flickr's web source is so deranged as to make it impossible to get to a link to the graphic. I bemoan the fact that I have to take a screenshot to get a picture of something I can look at with my eyes. Now we've just created another PNG on another image site... how very evolutionary. Copy Image URL was put in by the people who built the software, and your subversion of it is a betrayal of those who made the very tools upon which you've built your success.
In any case, we'll be on the wall next month. Compared to 5.5k clicks on a residually shown unpaid-for ad... that's a bigger number.
I want a copy. :-/ How do I get one copy of a Chinese magazine?
 
6:42 AM
I keep stumbling upon Infected Mushroom clips that I imagine scored to a Red/Rebol demo, flipping through surprising tech stuff to those who might have gotten too used to garbage. Very demoscene. We need to bring the demoscene back, people are too boring these days!
The thing is, Red and Rebol are what most of us (here) think of as "normal/sane" thinking. It's just very difficult to follow the mindsets of the people who will pick up something like HTML and CSS and just run with it, carefree... like "wow! I printed a message!" without any deeper philosophical contemplation about the matter. As if they didn't keep any mental inventory of the problems they hit, or why.
I think the demoscene and things like it are indeed similar; it was not that they were doing anything impressive to the people who had money to spend on faster computers. Showing an old PC doing kind-of-okay 3D graphics was a laugh if you had money and bigger computers... it just wasn't worth the time to eke out that performance. Because, "who cares about people with consumer PCs? Let them eat 640Kake."
It isn't advantageous to most interests to teach people how to do more with less. They'd rather spend their existing prior advantage to do something to make you feel like you need more, despite not paving a path toward putting you on equal ground with them. This is what I dislike about institutions like Pixar, and software developers who build internal tools for them to be locked in a vault to further the imbalance.
Anyway, Doc said in his talk that to him, Red was about freedom, but maybe this is an aspect of that freedom that was missed. That designing open-source tools that are comprehensible and run efficiently on mass-produced hardware, even if commercial interests (<Apple, cough>) are determined to expire your investment and make you "buy a new one", even if "buying a new one" is a severe burden and the old one was capable.
 
7:44 AM
I get some strange unintended mails. This just arrived, message title was: "10th admit card"
Overprints always strike me on "official" forms. I am especially angry of indifference to this kind of sloppiness on medical prescriptions and no one in the chain seems to know why the print is malfunctioning. "And you call yourselves doctors?", say I.
As to why I am receiving an optical scan of an overprinted overlay of something like that, I don't know, and I tend to not push the "spam" button until I know exactly what the "spam" button means.
 
 
2 hours later…
9:53 AM
@HostileFork While it does indeed suck that they prevent Copy Image URL (and actually, as does any site that breaks reasonable browsing behaviour), you can get the URL and a little extra metadata through oEmbed:
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== RESULT is an object of value:
   type            string!   "photo"
   title           string!   "Snow Days"
   author_name     string!   "rgchris"
   author_url      string!   "http://www.flickr.com/photos/rgchris/"
   width           string!   "1024"
   height          string!   "768"
   url             string!   {farm3.staticflickr.com/2835/113432722...
   web_page        string!   "http://www.flickr.com/photos/rgchris/1134327...
 
@rgchris I know, just so much in the network panel in Dev tools... Dozens of images, you find one and its the thumbnail... Easier to screenshot when you don't even know the links are permalinkable if you found them. When they're that cagey maybe they change them on the hour.
I call those doing this kind of thing my enemy. Hook right click to disable copy in the browser (I'm looking at you, snopes) ... Enemy. It's DRM implemented by dimwits, and DRM was already dimwitted to start with.
 
10:46 AM
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 33 so chat away!
 
10:59 AM
@HostileFork I failed to make red work on my system. When I try using it, it just give me question marks. :/ What can be the possible mistake I'm making. The rebol binary works well though.
 
@Ranveer what system type? Are you referring to the binary from Red downloads? Remember that if you are going to be running Red from source, right now that needs Rebol v.2
Most people are successfully running the Red console from the download page, and if you are not that is interesting and important to report
I do still say that for some time, it will be most fun to try using Rebol, as Red is under development. I like to say it is like "Rebol 4". The brand name is not so important to me, and I like both the icons, so I say "whatever works".
 
11:26 AM
I'm running it on a 64-bit linux system. And I forked the red repository.
And the rebol binary, I downloaded from the rebol download page. It worked well.
 
@Ranveer Do you have a 32-bit translation library? There is no 64-bit Red download as of yet.
(*) For Linux 64-bit distros, you need to install 32-bit supporting libraries. So, for Debian-based distros, install them using:
$ sudo apt-get install ia32-libs libc6-i386
 
Yup! I did that
 
@Ranveer Well then it may be time for a bug report! What message are you getting? You say "just gives question marks"... any more detail?
 
So, what I did was, I followed the instructions from the red repo's readme
I downloaded the rebol binary, ran do/args %red.r "%tests/hello.red" and it did what was expected
then I wrote a hello world program and on the terminal did red hello.red
and it returned a 69 followed by ?'s
 
@Ranveer Hm, well you know do/args %red.r "%tests/hello.red" does not package Red... it runs the Red scripts thru the Rebol 2 interpreter and compiles hello.red. So your second red hello.red is not connected to the first operation. Just pointing out that they are different, even though the effect should be the same. Does the red interpreter start up if you run it without parameters?
 
11:42 AM
Exactly! The result should have been the same. The red interpreter does nothing. If I fire up my terminal, type red and hit enter, it does nothing. If I press enter, I get a ?
 
@Ranveer Note also that "red" is linked as "reduced ED" on some linux systems. which red can confirm you're actually running red.
 
which red returns /usr/bin/red
 
@Ranveer If you didn't put red there, that may not be running what you think you're running!
 
Oh! Got it! So that is reduced ED.
 
Some have suggested we change, but as per Office Space and Michael Bolton ^-- "Why should we change? They're the one who sucks." :-P
I don't think the future belongs to ED, much less Reduced ED. :-)
 
11:46 AM
Haha! True! So how do I compile it and run?
 
@Ranveer Well if you don't ever plan to use ED the editor in (R)educed mode you can just sudo rm /usr/bin/red... but then, you either need to replace that to a symlink to where you put red or run it when you're in the same directory with ./red. Typical unix stuff.
I get confused a lot when I have something in the path and it prefers the path over what's in the directory, and I think that's because it used to be because what was in your directory was preferred over the path in DOS or something... but it's been so long I can't remember why I think what I think :-)
 
Well, I don't know whether I'll use it or not, so currently I'll use it in the working directory
 
Anyway I get bitten a lot by not typing ./executablename but executablename and getting some version of the thing I wasn't expecting, especially when recompiling stuff that ships in the OS, like GDB
 
Who uses reduced ED anyway? Never heard of it.
 
"I just recompiled that. Why is it printing the old stuff? Ohhh... forgot the ./
@Ranveer Yeah that's kind of how we feel, and beyond that, who uses ED?
 
11:51 AM
So how do I compile red from source. I can't see an executable there.
 
I feel like that's one of the "don't hire" interview moments. "How would you solve this problem?" "Well, first I'd start up ED..." "Okay, thank you for your time."
@Ranveer Red is a compiler, but it is not currently itself compiled. Instead, it is packaged into an executable that is a Rebol interpreter bundled up with the Rebol code that implements it. In the Rebol world, we call that "encapping".
That packaging process called "encapping", unfortunately, is not open source yet. This means that the only people who can make encapped binaries are those who have Rebol 2 commercial licenses.
 
Okay, so I need to do do/args %red.r "%tests/filename.red" for now.
 
Of course, commercial licensing ended with the open source of Rebol 3. But no Rebol 3 encapper exists just yet, except Saphirion apparently has one. And if you follow along enough you'll see me ranting at them to open source and be public with their work, but they are a consulting company looking for commercial angles. And Rebol 3 is Apache 2... they are not obligated to release anything they derive from it.
@Ranveer For now, but among the many things we could use from talented young hackers, an open source Rebol 3 encapper would be nice. It's not necessarily that hard; you just have to paste binary data onto the interpreter in a way that pleases the OS executable image format while still being accessible by the interpreter.
Packaging the binary data = easy, figuring out how in a cross platform way to slipstream data into the executable format and make it accessible to the interpreter = not as easy
Red is a compiler and won't need to worry about the same kinds of problems though, if it wants data it will just link it in as a resource.
 
Okay, I'll give it a try
 
@Ranveer Well I wouldn't tackle that first thing. :-) I will still say that for maximum fun, you should just learn the language and how nifty it is. Solve some problems, ask some questions...
@RebolBot
parse "You have to learn why we like [Rebol] enough to worry so much" [
    thru "["
    copy bracketed to "]"
]
print bracketed
 
11:59 AM
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
Rebol
 
So for now I should keep using the rebol binary, if that is what you mean.
 
@Ranveer I hate to rehash the example I keep coming to, but it's important just to kind of say "hey, we are doing this for a reason"...
 
Alrighty then! I'll continue my exploration. I even plan to make a GUI-less game on it, soon.
 
@Ranveer Well we're all working to understand the Red implementation process, and you might ask some people and they will say "Install Rebol 2, it's stable even if it's closed source" or you may ask other people and they say "Don't bother with Rebol, start with Red!". I'm of course the person to listen to :-) and I say learn Red's plan and methods, pick up some Rebol, and become active in the design discussions.
 
Alright!
 
12:03 PM
@Ranveer The GUI dialect, I have not been participating in, but it is now on Linux and Windows. You can download from http://atronixengineering.com/downloads.html and run the demo.
 
Okay, I'll try that too.
 
We are discussing how to bring their changes into the master, and people are starting to hammer on it and see how well it works across different linuxes.
But the key to it is all again about dialecting, remember that... how to make a language that really cuts to the core of what you're doing so simple things are simple.
It's still a work in progress, we are seeking inventors as well as users!
 
Okay, so I'll try that out. I'll get back in case of any further queries :)
 
@Ranveer Not everyone is always awake :-) but I skim chat after I'm away. Remember there is also the Q&A in and
 
Yup! I'll do that
 
 
1 hour later…
1:37 PM
@HostileFork someone applying for Red's GSoC project?
 
1:52 PM
@iarnold We have some interest but of course I do not know our odds; so for everyone I say "look because we are working on something interesting..."
Ranveer gets that and is interested regardless, as is Jacob on the Google group.. I think showing an openness to contributions by college age students is important for Red/Rebol, it's not just a GSoC thing it's about realizing that great contributions can come from anywhere in open source
 
@HostileFork I was referring to the message "I get some strange unintended mails. This just arrived, message title was: "10th admit card""
Well I looked at the GSoC page, two days for Google to announce accepted orgs, students can apply too.
 
If I were on the GSoC committee picking projects to sponsor, my major "what's missing" bit would ask how Red is being used today and making a difference in open source. We have dedicated people to teach, and a cool project, but who is applying Rebol/Red (Saphirion, Respectech, Atronix excluded)
@iArnold Not sent to my hostilefork address and not phrased as any kind of application.
 
A lot of businesses using Nick's software.
 
@iArnold I think what to build more of is being used and relevant in open source. They talk about "vouching" from another OSS org and how hard would it be to get in and show Rebol/Red value in some well known OSS toolchain?
It is good guidance. In terms of us being picked, I only see that coming from an engineering evaluation of our merit and sincerity. It's okay if that's not enough for them, because merit and sincerity is its own reward. :)
I am only pointing out that the insularity is hurting us--if we can beat a Perl dependency in a well-known OSS project with a smaller runtime and prettier code, why isn't that outreach happening? We need pull requests cleaning up OSS with what Rebol does today and what Red does tomorrow.
anyway I don't want anyone getting bent out of shape if Google does not pick us. They take 1 in 4 and we are a scrappy underdog in the sense that no powerful group backs us... Just powerful ideas...
It's fortunate I didnt find out they hadn't sponsored haiku last year because Google having college students do stuff like IPV6 for haiku was part of what made me think we should apply, and it was about the mentoring and the merit vs the grind of phpmyadmin or whatever....
But I know Doc wants to recruit pros and getting published on front page in a 2million distribution magazine to China's top devs is a better bet for technical advancement of the work. I guess my argument is that its cultural too. GSoC is pocket change for Google, but they want to buy some goodwill.
I think we need to engage younger developers, just like tech companies have interns. Out average age of developer is what--38? I know that age brings wisdom and all, but if you can't capture the imagination of younger programmers where is your language going?
Besides China, apparently. :)
 
2:43 PM
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 113 so chat away!
 
Greetings @ArulNadhan...new to Rebol and Red?
 
Yep..
 
@ArulNadhan I see you do some Java... any Lisp or otherwise?
 
I am New to this Red language... Just saw ur Gsoc Ideas & Redirected here
 
@ArulNadhan Cool, well we'll know in a few days if they pick us, it's a long shot. :-) They pick 1 in 4 as I mentioned above of both students and organizations. But we think it's a nice chance for publicity either way. So... here's a cool trick...
@RebolBot
parse "Let's look for [@ArulNadhan] in brackets" [
   thru "["
   copy bracketed to "]"
]
print bracketed
 
2:53 PM
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
@ArulNadhan
 
@ArulNadhan Does that make sense? It is a small example, but it ties into some of why functions in Rebol and Red are very powerful... they use the syntax of the language, but you can make little sublanguages... PARSE is a function that takes two arguments, what to parse and the block of rules. The rules are in the same syntax as the language, but not evaluated...
@RebolBot
code: [print 1 + 2]
foreach symbol code [
    print ["The type of symbol" mold symbol "is" mold type? symbol]
]
print {About to run the code!}
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
The type of symbol print is word!
The type of symbol 1 is integer!
The type of symbol + is word!
The type of symbol 2 is integer!
About to run the code!
 
Argh, enter vs. shift-enter... :-)
@RebolBot
code: [print 1 + 2]
foreach symbol code [
    print ["The type of symbol" mold symbol "is" mold type? symbol]
]
print {About to run the code!}
do code
append code [+ 3]
print [{Length after append is:} length? code]
print {About to run modified code!}
do code
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
The type of symbol print is word!
The type of symbol 1 is integer!
The type of symbol + is word!
The type of symbol 2 is integer!
About to run the code!
3
Length after append is: 6
About to run modified code!
6
 
@HostileFork It Seems to be Easy ....
But Every Language has some Simple Programs @ first :P
 
2:58 PM
@ArulNadhan Well, it's like those games like Go, where the simple rules make a very deep thing. :-) But it can be pretty, also how it makes you put spaces between things... and because you have to put spaces, it can interpret things differently...
@RebolBot
copy/part (to string! read hostilefork.com) 80
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== {<!doctype html>
<html lang=en>
<head>
^-<meta charset=utf-8>
^-<meta name="google-}
 
First 80 characters of my website, but notice I did not have to put http://hostilefork.com in quotes... it recognizes things of the form foo:// as being a subclass of string, called URL
So a routine can be polymorphic if it gets a URL and do something different with it
In the case of READ it is smart enough to say "oh, that's a URL, I should dispatch to a scheme handler" in this case for HTTP
@RebolBot
type? <div>
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== tag!
 
@ArulNadhan There are a lot of types, and they are like pieces you can use to build new languages, but the default language evaluator has a lot of nice properties. It is very literate. Also very small. The Rebol interpreter can do wonders and is only one half of a megabyte with no installation process or dependencies on many platforms.
 
Seems Interesting with many Features...
 
3:14 PM
@ArulNadhan It is a truly different idea about development; Rebol started it, Red is continuing. I have to take off, but maybe you will find it interesting to learn more. You might look at a parse tutorial for Rebol 3, some basics of how Rebol replaces RegEx...
 
@HostileFork Will take a look at it .Thanks for Guiding Me ......
 
@ArulNadhan Also maybe Why Rebol, Red, and the Parse Dialect are cool... and a definite good watch would be What is Red?. It is subtitled in English and some other languages, but if you want to become our best friend you can translate it to Hindi. A couple of hours well spent, what's a couple of hours anyway? :-)
 
3:38 PM
@HostileFork I Will Translate it & Send u ....
 
4:26 PM
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 306 so chat away!
 
4:55 PM
posted on February 22, 2014 by IngoHohmann

I hope this time, the code is in better shape. At least the base I was building upon was way better this time around. I'm still trying to get accustomed to git(hub), I hope, I got the right files / commits into this.

 
@DocKimbel It looks better now, and it seems that I had the wrong version in the pull request, some problems I had already ironed out.
@DocKimbel I sent a new request, correcting a typo, and adding handling of op!, in 2 different commits. Ihope, this time it looks cleaner.
 
5:29 PM
@HostileFork @BrianH: I sent a PR with changes for android.
 
posted on February 22, 2014 by giuliolunati

Minor changes to compile for android

 
6:14 PM
Bret Kuhns, North Olmsted, OH
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Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 1528 so chat away!
 
6:26 PM
@giuliolunati I'll test a non-root install of this using Terminal IDE. It would be nice to not have to root my phone.
 
Sure, not being selected is not a shame. Putting up the project is a sign that "we" are on the right way and have a confidence that we could pull this one off.
Not having tried would have been a reel shame. But let us not go to much forward on this, not before we get the message from Google with a YES or a no.
 
@ingo Thanks! Have you seen my comment wrt to this PR? Just let me know if you pulled my last change before you submitted. If that's the case, I'll do the conflict resolution.
 
7:09 PM
@BrianH TerminalIDE gcc is not fully ndk-compatible, I don't know if can build Rebol.
Note that only copy su and run it not root the phone, because do not gives write access to /system, only to /data.
So imho no problem...
@BrianH obviously if you cross-compile all that not matters.
 
I'm partly doing this to make sure I can, on principle. I should be able to install a Rebol, command line at least, on any general-purpose computer I use. Preferably not having to reduce the security of my system, so non-root preferred.
I think that you might have not been using the right platform number though. 4.20 (linux_arm) seems more appropriate than 4.3 (linux on x86), but I'll check both ways.
With Terminal IDE you don't have to install in /system for tools you are going to be running in Terminal IDE, because the app's own /system dirs under its data directory show up earlier in the path.
 
7:34 PM
@BrianH Yes. My point is that you can copy su in TerminalIDE and access all /data tree (also AIDE dir) without security concerns, because /system keeps ro.
Also, you can cp AIDE toolchain in TerminalIDE files tree, and then forgot su.
@BrianH here's the binary:
https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B8Z4fCj7YAC9dGJwV2pwWVJfQW8/edit
 
@giuliolunati I've been thinking of the Android platform, and how Rebol fits in. I think that we should have two different build styles for Android. For command line use, we should make sure that the 0.4.3 (for x86) or 0.4.20 (for ARM) builds will compile with the NDK or the GCC that comes with Terminal IDE, and provide the standard posix API.
Then, we should have a different entire platform (not 4) for Android that uses the Android application model - that version would be more appropriate for use with AIDE, Android Studio and such.
@giuliolunati thanks.
 
7:50 PM
@BrianH seems good! I will try a standard AIDE compilation.
But what about GUI in android?
 
Or maybe we need different minor platform numbers for Android command line builds that link to bionic instead of libc, so we can have pre-compiled binaries for the platform. Those precompiled binaries would come in handy for building on Android.
@giuliolunati GUI on Android would use a different platform number, not 4.x, maybe 6? GUI on Android is not posix-based, the os files would be different. We could do native apps but they would be Android apps.
 
@BrianH ok, should be great! ...
 
8:40 PM
@HostileFork I've been taking a look at Slack. It reminds me a lot of AltME, but with most of the features I miss from SO chat: editing, starring messages, using it on my phone, practically using it on my Mac. Otherwise it has almost AltME's full feature set.
 
9:00 PM
@giuliolunati it turns out that just downloading the rebol binary from that docs repo, copying it to Terminal IDE's system/bin directory with the name rebol, and doing a chmod +x on it, seems to be enough. I have a working Rebol on my phone. Next, trying to rebuild it there.
This means that if we allocate platform numbers for x86 and ARM Linux builds against Bionic, we can have the rebolsource page updated with prebuilt binaries for every new merge to rebol master. Downloading from there should be enough to get one started on Android command line Rebol.
 
9:20 PM
Left comments to that effect in the PR.
 
9:37 PM
What's the difference between compiling R3 on android, and the specific r3/droid version released by Cyphre?
 
I don't know about Cyphre's, since it didn't come with source when last I heard, and I don't see any trace of it in rebol/rebol, even in a PR. Has that changed? At the very least, once this PR is finalized and merged you'll be able to at least do Posix-style command line builds of the official Rebol.
Maybe we can check that to know what platform numbers he used. If it's a stock Posix-style Linux platform then some 0.4.x numbers would be appropriate. If it includes Android API stuff then it shouldn't be 0.4, it should be a different number.
 
does the r3 build on android have a gui?
 
So, that's the difference then. Android API integration.
 
This is for command line builds. A GUI build for Android shouldn't have a 0.4.x platform number, because the Android API isn't posix.
 
9:50 PM
I know that a number of people donated to the r3/droid project but don't recall if ever it was said that the sources would be published.
 
We need to support both command line and GUI on Android, and with different platform numbers since the application model is different. The command line ones can be used for building Rebol, for instance, and should work on any Linux that uses Bionic as its libc.
@GrahamChiu that's too bad. I have to assume it doesn't exist except as a design prototype, unless I can contribute to the source. We're finally implementing the changes to basic semantics that we've been planning for a long time now. Unless someone can merge those into the forks, the forks don't exist.
 
Ok, found something. On 18-Jan-2013, Cyphre said "Graham, sources will be available once the code a bit settles down. I estimate that would happen after next 2 binary releases from now."
On the Altme/Rebol4/Android channel
 
Cool. Do you know what platform numbers he used? That's the main question that @giuliolunati's PR needs an answer to, so it can be adjusted into a mergeable state (he's using the wrong number for now).
 
In Aug 2013 I reported a reappearance of the disappearing text problem on my Nexus 7, and it was going to be investigated. Perhaps development stalled after that?
Let me fire it up ...
ver 2.101.0.13.1
 
0.6.x for GUI Android I hope, unless 6 is still reserved for BSDi?
13? Good.
 
10:06 PM
@dockimbel i pulled in aftet commit b6579248 (if I got it right), so it is based on your latest changes.
 
Looks like the 4.x numbers don't match their historical R2 counterparts. I'm OK with that as long as the major number 4 does.
@GrahamChiu if people have cultural problems with 13, I'm sure we could use 6; who cares about BSDi nowadays.
 
6 is unlucky number in Cantonese
Prefer 13
 
Cool with me.
How about 0.4.5 for Linux x86 32-bit Bionic, and 0.4.21 for Linux ARM 32-bit Bionic? That would allow Android command-line builds, which would allow development of Rebol on Android, including the future 0.13.x platforms.
 
@BrianH hope you're not talking to me!
 
10:23 PM
@GrahamChiu not specifically. Everyone who has been involved in the conversation about command-line Rebol on Android is currently logged into SO chat. So when they wake up, they can answer. I can't ask on AltME right now because I haven't been able to get on there for around a year now. Fortunately the discussion moved to CureCode, GitHub and here, right?
 
No Android discussions of note since Aug 2013 on Altme
Does anyone know if you have to use the GUI to post a message to Altme?
Just wondering if we can create a two-way bridge
 
When last I checked you have to use the GUI. Which I can't switch computers on without losing my history (working on that today).
 
Are there linux tools to inject text into a gui textbox?
 
@BrianH I don't know about details of build process, nor version number, so cannot contribute to discussion.
 
@earl has your timer scheme made it into any of the public builds yet?
 
10:32 PM
@GrahamChiu Not as far as I know, no.
 
@giuliolunati since you made the PR, you'll have to contribute pretty soon because we have to clean it up a little before it can be merged. That means adding at least one more commit to fix these issues :)
 
@earl Have you submitted a PR?
 
I can put together that commit, but since it's your repo you'll have to add it to your branch.
 
@BrianH Major platform for "proper" Android is 13. That's already in mainline as well: github.com/rebol/rebol/blob/master/src/boot/platforms.r#L29
If we really want to continue to distinguish build variations with minor numbers, then 4.5 for linux+bionic+arm sounds ok.
 
10:36 PM
@earl thanks!. What's involved in adding a new build to the ones that get done automatically and posted to rebolsource.net?
 
We'll also need to add a few other such minor numbers for ARM variants as well (mainly soft-float vs hard-float arm).
@BrianH Mainly getting a build slave working.
 
Just wondering about writing schemes again, at present I have tended to just create a very large single async-handler. Wonder if it would be easier to change the async handler on the fly depending on what state you're in.
 
@earl not to mention 64-bit ARM, once that becomes a thing.
 
@BrianH Well, it already is.
 
@BrianH I tried to open an account Curecode with a username giuliolunati, but did not receive the activation email. What can I do?
 
10:37 PM
@GrahamChiu Nope.
 
@giuliolunati I validated it for you. Enjoy!
 
@earl Probably explains the crashes I was getting then.
 
@BrianH Oh, many thanks! :-)
You're kind.
 
@earl could you let us know what variants need supporting, at least for the Linux-with-Bionic's command line builds? I'd like to add the numbers to @giuliolunati's PR. And I don't have an Android x86 to test, would the Android SDK's emulator qualify?
 
@BrianH Just add the ones you can build & test for now. So that's probably just "4.5" for "bionic-arm" for starters.
If you want to be comprehensive, check the state of FP variants (hard-float/soft-float/whatever) and minimum ARM architecture versions (ARMv5, v6, v7) on Android.
 
10:52 PM
@earl Probably starting with 4.21 for bionic-arm since 4.20 is regular arm. 4.5 would be for bionic-x86. Which ARM version would you suggest as a start? I don't want to just start with the one I have, just because I have it, I'd rather use one that would run on the one that I have and also most older ones, or at least the best choice.
Sorry, I wish I knew more about the current state of development tools for the platform. I know Linux was getting their ARM builds into better shape recently, but don't know how far along that is, and how that relates to the current state of Android NDK integration.
 
@BrianH Ah, sorry, I also meant 4.21.
 
I haven't looked into Android or ARM development since last spring. It looks like it's changing rapidly.
 
I'd have to investigate that more deeply myself. I think most modern Android devices are ARMv7 with mandatory NEON support.
I think a relatively safe bet will be to use 4.21 for ARMv6+hardfloat. That should run on the majority of Android devices still around.
(Gotta run, see you when I have more stable internet.)
 
11:11 PM
posted on February 22, 2014 by BrianH

[Wish] We need to add Linux sub-platforms for Android command line use. They wouldn't be Android sub-platforms since they shouldn't use the Android API. Instead, they should be Linux builds that link against the third-party C library that Android uses (Bionic), and which run on compatible hardware to what Android runs on, but which don't necessarily have to be running Android at all. At the ve

posted on February 22, 2014 by BrianH

[Comment] In-progress PR for this proposal: https://github.com/rebol/rebol/pull/190

 
@earl I'll try to use the same CPU settings needed by 4.20, but built against Bionic. Let's see if that works.
 
Should work, yes. Save the output of gcc -v for the (cross-)compiler you use.
 
11:33 PM
Also, don't forget to make the builds available on Wall of Binaries. :-) More builds! And a link to install instructions/build instructions on Android phones.
 
I want the cross-compiled Android command line build on rebolsource.net, definitely. We can't build rebol without an existing build of rebol for make to use. That means that we need to have cross-compiled builds done automatically, so Android users have something they can download so they can bootstrap the build process.
 
11:55 PM
posted on February 22, 2014 by Jacob

What impact will ART have on Red? One thing that is great about most LISP dialects, is the interactive development... will Red also have this?  I see that Red/Rebol is quite nice in the syntactic manipulation department but I have not seen much said about making a program while its running(though I

 

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