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12:02 AM
@DocKimbel yeah, that was the R3-GUI code I was thinking of. Those actors (I think they renamed the concept at Saphirion) are completely optional, and when you want them gone you want them gone, because they fall back to defaults that way. This is not as easy to do with objects because you can't remove fields from them.
@DocKimbel in general, if I don't have to bind, I use maps. They're lighter-weight and more flexible. But when I need objects, I use objects. Most of the time I write code that will work with both.
One of the weird, obvious-only-in-retrospect annoyances is that neither maps nor objects directly correspond to the data model of JSON objects. It turns out that JSON objects have case-sensitive, arbitrary-contents string keys, and can have values of null (JavaScript's version of none). In order to emulate that in Rebol 3 you have to use maps with binary keys and translate JSON's null to Rebol's unset. In order to emulate that in Rebol 2 you have to give up.
 
@BrianH Yes, another of my concerns with the Rebol3 current options.
 
@BrianH Can you give a specific example of why NONE means "not in map", and that you can't remove keys because of "binding"? What is that, exactly?
 
@DocKimbel there's a proposal for a strict-map! type that would be case-sensitive, and we could also make it allow none values, using unset values to remove the keys instead. Using unset values means that you would have to use poke to unset the keys since set-path expressions choke on unsets (rightfully so). But it would be workable.
 
12:18 AM
@BrianH That's an option, but I don't like the idea of adding yet another object-like datatype.
 
@HostileFork though keys with none values associated are actually internally "not in the map", that is not really the model. Logically, all possible keys are in the map, you just can't see the ones with none values assigned to them. It's similar to how none is treated elsewhere in Rebol 3, as a placeholder for a value; the change to the ordinals and many other functions follows that interpretation of none.
 
@BrianH That's a "what" not so much a "why not unset?"
To avoid two map lookups, one for the "is it there" and then the "what is it"?
 
@HostileFork unset is the nothing-that-is-erroneous, none is the nothing-that-isn't-erroneous. It's not an error to have the value none. If we used unset for this, the whole purpose for doing so would be to trigger errors for missing keys - that's what unset is for.
@DocKimbel well, if we need to support those semantics without faking it then we need a type for that. Not that there is necessarily a problem with faking it though, I'm a big fan of faking stuff. Still, situations like this are why we wanted user-defined types - there's always the need for a subtle difference in semantics.
 
@BrianH Yes, but in a theoretical sense, there's nothing wrong with triggering errors for missing keys, if you have a separate operation for testing if the key is in the map. You would have full coverage and be able to store none values as distinct from not being in the map. Right?
 
@HostileFork the whole point to the map type is that missing keys aren't an error.
 
12:28 AM
@BrianH No, that's an ergonomic feature of the map that you think makes it more useful. The point of a map is to provide an efficient way to map keys to values. A wrapper function could get the value and convert unsets it to none by default but have an override, like GET/ANY does. Just pointing out the possibilities.
 
@iArnold I salute your initiative, but from what I see, the level of documentation is way too low, commenting files at the line level is not helpful and that is not maintainable. Contributors need a big picture. Also, some of the explanations are not related to Red, but there are basic Rebol programming or general programming knowledge (like describing what an "assertion" is) See how qtxie does it (you can use google translate).
@iArnold The code parts that will be replaced in Red 2.0 are all the Rebol2 parts.
 
@HostileFork that was an ergonomic feature that was considered important enough to create another object-like type in the first place. Not generating errors on map path expressions for missing keys is really important, because handling those errors adds major overhead to all code that uses maps. The code that handles nones, on the other hand, is much lighter. This would even be the case if Rebol was compiled like Red.
 
Hi people! I just succeed compile r3 natively on android, entirely on phone, from git clone to executable.
4
 
@giuliolunati Very cool! Sounds like it would make a good blog entry. :-)
 
12:43 AM
@giuliolunati add the notes to your branch and we can make a PR with the changes :)
@DocKimbel I added a comment to issue.cc/r3/1774 explaining the additional changes that might make strict-map! worth adding.
 
posted on February 20, 2014 by BrianH

[Comment] A proposal for a tweak to this suggested in SO chat: We could make this even more strict by having the value that indicates that a key should be removed from the map be #[unset!] instead of #[none]. The advantages of this include being able to remove keys (like in maps), but still being able to treat the absence of a key as an error (like unset words in objects). This would also make

 
@HostileFork @BrianH Compiling natively on Android requires disparate tools. Would it be of interest anyway?
 
@giuliolunati It's interesting to us. :-) I think any article on doing Android stuff with Rebol is a good thing to put together...
 
@giuliolunati absolutely. We can translate that information to a more normal build process in the PR.
 
@BrianH Hm, I was just thinking... if FUNC were unary and took [[spec] [body]] then TION spec body could exist, and be equivalent to URE spec body so you could have FUNC TION spec body and CLOS URE spec body, right? I don't remember if that was ever mentioned. Hmmmm...
        foo: func [[x y] [
            code code code
        ]]

        bar: func tion [x y] [
             code code code
        ]

        baz: function [x y] [
            code code code
        ]
 
12:54 AM
@HostileFork @BrianH Well, I will write a trace...
I follow with great interest your work on chat.
Goodnight!
 
@HostileFork you brought up that idea last year. Making func unary deals with part of what didn't work then though :)
 
It works just fine. :-)
Think of all the uses for TION!
You could use it for... um. Closures! And lots of other things. Like... um.
 
Last year you didn't think of making FUNC unary. This would work much better, especially with issue.cc/r3/2107
@HostileFork well, it would let you reuse the preprocessing code with future builders. All you'd have to do is assign it to another half-name. Won't work with post-processors like the protector though.
 
@BrianH What post-processing won't it work with?
 
@HostileFork anything that requires you to retain a reference to the spec and/or body after the function/closure is created, so you can do things that require the function binding process to run first. Like, for instance, protecting the spec and body.
 
1:21 AM
posted on February 20, 2014 by cyphre

the #9910 crash was caused by ports in pending requests being GCed while the system port or app code could still access the pending events with port refs To test the crash you can run following gist: https://gist.github.com/cyphre/9122095 related addition: -added Host_Lib->devices reference to be able access host Devices array from core dll

 
@Cyphre are issue.cc/r3/1784 and issue.cc/r3/2106 related to your PR?
 
posted on February 20, 2014 by BrianH

[Comment] This appears to related or a fix of this: https://github.com/rebol/rebol/pull/188

 
@BrianH I still have a question about the "recursion safe" meaning w.r.t. copying the body. I'll ask again: what does copying the body a single time at time of function generation have to do with recursion?
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-expect-arg.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: if does not allow error! for its then-block argument
** Where: foo
** Near: foo 5
 
@Cyphre, @Henrik, maybe one of you might know this. Can you use Set_Var with NONE_VALUE ? I need to set a var to none in C code.
 
1:33 AM
Um. What?
Oh. exit
 
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 918 so chat away!
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-expect-arg.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: if does not allow error! for its then-block argument
** Where: foo
** Near: foo 5
 
@HostileFork RebolBot needs upgrading.
 
Greetings @n.1 ... from France, the country of Red's origin. :-)
>> body: [print "Hello"] foo: make function! reduce [[] body]

>> foo
Hello

>> append body [print "Goodbye"]
== [print "Hello" print "Goodbye"]

>> foo
Hello
Goodbye
That can't be good. :-(
 
@HostileFork assume that your code is in a function (otherwise recursion safety isn't an issue). Now assume that your function contains code that can, indirectly, call itself recursively. As an example, that it uses collect. If the code block you pass to collect isn't copied, it will be modified once when you call collect, then while the code in that block is running it could be modified during any recursive calls to your function which would pass the block to collect again.
That would make keep output to the wrong target series. Assuming things don't crash, of course.
 
But I just think it's a general thing that if you don't copy, then the body can be modified. You don't have to recurse to be bothered by that fact.
body: [print "doing something"]

foo: func [] body

insert body [print "Entering bar..."]

bar: func [] body
Call foo, get "Entering bar...". That's simple enough to demonstrate the general problem, no recursion needed.
 
1:42 AM
@HostileFork Well, the body being modified can cause problems in certain common circumstances. Recursion is one of those, as is multitasking, which is why I mentioned them. Under other circumstances modification is fine.
 
I'm liking this idea of the generators protecting by default. If you want to shoot yourself in the foot, use UNPROTECT and suffer the consequences.
Not sure where the code would pick up execution if the body erased the code in the body, for instance. :-/
 
The interesting part is that closures bind/copy their code blocks before executing, so the protection would be undone once the code starts, and unnecessary for that matter. Only the source would be protected, or needs to be.
@HostileFork you used to be able to crash Rebol 2 by doing that kind of thing; haven't tried it with Rebol 3.
 
2:31 AM
posted on February 20, 2014 by hostilefork

In order to speed load times, the Mezzanine code (mostly) used a non-copying variant of FUNC, simply defined as this: func: make function! [[ ; !!! This is a special minimal FUNC for more efficient boot. Gets replaced later in boot. {Non-copying function constructor (optimized for boot).} spec [block!] {Help string (opt) followed by arg words (and opt type and string)} body [b

 
2:56 AM
@RebolBot
foo: function [] [probe self]
foo

bar: function/with [] [probe self] []
bar
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: foo has no value
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
3:17 AM
room topic changed to [Rebol and Red]: Rebol 3 GUI on Linux! rebolsource.net/go/chat-faq [dialect] [interpreter] [json] [lisp] [rebol] [red]
 
posted on February 20, 2014 by Brian Dickens

Hmmm, I thought I posted a reply to this, but it hasn't shown up...  :-/ I'll try again. I've not taken any Coursera classes, but have heard good things from people who have. Looks like they're doing the traditional thing and starting with lexical analysis.  That's a subject unto itself... but not a

 
4:12 AM
@hostilefork looks like the tryrebol site is on a build of rebol 3 from 21 Sept hence the function changes aren't there. Is it Kaj who looks after tryrebol. It would be great if someone on altme could check with him about updating it.
 
 
2 hours later…
6:13 AM
@Feeds @HostileFork this isn't a good idea, for reasons I explained in the ticket. Take a look.
 
@BrianH I responded. Let's have some more eyes on it. I think you are, when it comes to mezzanine stuff, "too close to the issue"... and dismissive of the potential for bugs and need for process changes when you've achieved a certain level of comfort with it. To get more hands, it has to be easier to change and to understand. The best way to stop things from being "tricky" is to make them simpler and consistent.
 
6:30 AM
@rgchris thanks for the last date changes
 
6:49 AM
@HostileFork the mezzanine code has to follow certain rules, and those rules certainly need documenting, but they don't need changing because the process depends on the current structure. We are intending to make changes to that structure, but aside from moving some stuff into modules and making extending things easier you shouldn't expect the basics to change that much, because it's like that for good reasons.
 
@BrianH I know you don't like change, but give other people a chance to review and decide if what you're saying makes sense. I don't think it makes sense. I think you're shifting the semantics of FUNC in a fairly important way when there's no good reason not to use something that calls attention to the difference and can catch problems.
As for defining the copying FUNCTION primitive up front, well, whatever. I was trying to enforce your optimization because I like rules that can be checked automatically.
Pushed the UNSET 'FUNC-BOOT so it's not still around, so that's fine and well.
 
@HostileFork don't forget, we're shifting the semantics of FUNCTION as well, from a precompiled version that doesn't run at startup to one that runs at runtime. And there are a few others like that, like LOAD. That's bootstrapping.
@HostileFork unsetting doesn't get rid of the word.
 
@BrianH Micro-optimize much? Who cares?
 
@HostileFork coming from you that's hilarious - so many words you've tried to get rid of :) Still, these add up.
 
You don't seem to care about all those TO-* things. Those add up and aren't unset!
 
7:00 AM
But don't worry, I like change, and know a lot of changes are coming. They just need to be done carefully.
@HostileFork I guess you forgot the modularization planned? Those are going to be optional.
 
Anyway, I'm trying to get something else done right now so let's have other people put some perspective on it. There needs to be documentation, and here is something that I certainly wouldn't have known just by looking at a random Mezzanine function. I'd try changing something and then it wouldn't work like I expected, and I'd puzzle about why.
This takes the puzzle level down a notch, and gives you something to go look up to which documentation is tied (FUNC-BOOT? What's a FUNC-BOOT?)... you go read it and go "oh, I see". And if you paste a bunch of FUNC in there that might slow down the startup it tells you what you need to look at.
Anyhow, let's discuss it later... would really like to finish this other thing tonight
 
Yup, bootstrapping is tricky. We used to have a bug in SCRIPT? because it was the only mezzanine using one of the TO-* functions, which aren't able to be used in mezzanines because of the bootstrapping process, and shouldn't be used because they're supposed to be optional. Mezzanine writing is a different process than writing user code.
Well, I am really against using the word FUNC-BOOT for that function because we should be using FUNCTION and post-processing the code for speed. We want the mezzanine code to be as high-level as we can make it appear so it's easier to write, while making it structured in such a way as to be simpler at startup time. In a way, mezzanine code is compiled, which makes it not like regular Rebol code, but we still want it to be easy to write.
If we used FUNC-BOOT in the code, it would be easy enough to post-process that name away too, changing things to the boot-time FUNC during the build process, so that's not really a problem I guess if you want to put that in there.
 
@BrianH Well use FUNCTION-BOOT then, but again it's about the copying semantics vs. not. You can only do that if both the blocks are literal. So the usages appearing inside the bodies that are taking variables can't be handled that way.
 
7:19 AM
Actually, you don't have to do that with just literal blocks, if you think of the mezzanine code as being something that builds the mezzanines, with part of the build process happening at build time. That's why the function builders and the module system can all be translated to simpler expressions with a preprocessor - I was careful with their semantics so that would be possible. The code you write isn't the code that runs at startup, it's just the instructions to build that code.
That's why FUNCTION and CLOSURE and module specs don't do anything that can't be statically translated to code that doesn't use those functions. It's made for preprocessing.
 
8:10 AM
posted on February 21, 2014 by Ladislav

[Comment] #2106 is probably related

posted on February 21, 2014 by Ladislav

[Comment] #2106 is probably related

posted on February 21, 2014 by Ladislav

[Comment] #2106 is related

posted on February 21, 2014 by Ladislav

[Comment] Related tickets: #1642, #1784, #2032

posted on February 21, 2014 by ingo

Hi Fabian, I hope you haven't come too far, there are translations of part 100 - 140 in this repository: https://github.com/IngoHohmann/rebol-red-cc Kind regards, Ingo Am Donnerstag, 20. Februar 2014 19:08:49 UTC+1 schrieb fbou:

 
8:30 AM
@BrianH, sorry i don't know.
 
8:48 AM
Is it possible to have empty arguments in Red? (like using [any-type!] in Rebol.)
 
8:59 AM
Is it already possible to have embedded functions in Red? (like
t2: function[ i][f: function[ j][print [":" j]] f i]
)
 
9:31 AM
posted on February 21, 2014 by IngoHohmann

[Wish] At least in Germany all major email providers are switching to secured email access. If Rebol is not able to use this, its usefullness in these parts is greatly reduced.

 
10:04 AM
@ingo do people really use Rebol much for email??
 
Well, I need at least SMTP.
 
I'm told this works gist.github.com/gchiu/5288312 and if you want to use secure smtp, change the scheme to 'tls and the port to 465 or whatever it is
 
Yup, I've tested it with Gmail and it works.
 
Oh well, there we go :)
 
10:19 AM
It doesn't work with SMTP running on our server, but the problem may be on our side :)
 
what do you mean by that?
your own smtp server won't work with this protocol?
The main issue outstanding is that it needs a smarter timeout handling
and the same applies to pop and secure pop
 
It hangs on lookup event so it looks like some connection problem - I'm not the SMTP or firewall maintainer on that server, so I have to wait until someone looks into it.
 
but it works with a standard email client?
 
Yes.
 
and what about ordinary smtp?
 
10:24 AM
We do not have ordinary SMTP there, only secure.
 
well, that makes tracing packets a bit hard ....
 
I haven't spent much time investigating that yet, as it wasn't very urgent.
So right now I hope it's just some misconfiguration.
 
AFAIR I tested it against communigate pro and it worked
As well as gmail too
 
Anyway, I can still send emails thru Gmail and that's fine for testing :)
 
if your client works, and rebol one does not, it might be helpful to try to use WireShark, to see the packet exhange and where does it differ - should be identical, in theory :-)
 
10:33 AM
@pekr TLS ...
 
OK, even if encrypted, the problem could be in a negotiation/hanshake process. I am not pushing for Wiresharek, but when we developed one HW device, it turned up being quite usefull - our device was randomly disconnecting and later on we found out, that our SW was not properly reacting to one negotiation state ...
 
@pekr Yup, I haven't investigated with Wireshark yet, as it's really low priority right now. I will look into it in about two weeks.
 
how to decrypt secure traffic with wireshark .. not sure if this helps?
 
Thanks, bookmarked :)
 
11:16 AM
@GrahamChiu Well, I've used it in the past to send me tesmails, or server statistics. And I've used it for fast imap checking, if I didn't have an email-client at hand. Furthermore, I'd like to have an imapfilter that's not programmed in lua.
... forgot something ... :-)
 
11:32 AM
@ingo Ingo, for sending mail, just patch Graham's SMTP (change TCP to TLS and port number) and it should work.
 
11:45 AM
@ingo I don't remember we support it yet, but support for it could be added easily for console usage.
@ingo Currently only in interpreter, not in compiler.
@ingo, please add a wish ticket to github's tracker with one or several use cases.
 
 
1 hour later…
1:03 PM
All right, pushed through it and got my old rewriting HTTP proxy from 2008 published for better or worse. Another thing I can get rid of.
It is indeed hard to publish things if you don't start from publishing them in the beginning, there's always "something you want to do with it first before people see it". But hopefully Carl will get in the spirit of "let it be" and publish that terminal and TLS code. (!)
 
TLS is in R3.
 
@rebolek It's in Saphirion and Atronix's build, but has not yet been adopted to the mainline. So it's not in the http://rebolsource.net builds. I'd like us to rally around standardizing and peer-reviewing implementations under GitHub rebol/rebol.
 
https://github.com/red/red/pull/691
GitHub
Red Pull—Android
RaazTripathi
1392966792
 
I guess if there will be a pull request, Carl might accept it. If he doesn't disappear again...
 
1:47 PM
@DocKimbel Done for the optional arguments, I guess that embedded functions will come anyway. I don't no how to set flags, though, or maybe I'm not allowed to.
@rebolek OK, thank you, I'll have a look at it.
 
@ingo Thanks. IIRC, flags can only be set by the repo collaborators.
 
no == know, of course
 
 
1 hour later…
3:14 PM
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 1895 so chat away!
 
3:47 PM
@ingo I just realized that the coding style of %help.red is not the one used by Red project (like using tabs instead of spaces). I'm doing the changes.
 
@DocKimbel Is the coding style documented somewhere?
 
Not yet. But it is consistent in the codebase.
I guess that now that more contributors are submitting new code, I should find time to add something to the Red wiki pages on github.
 
Or at least, tell me what is not according to the style. I am still working on beautifying the output a little, it didn't cross my mind, that you'd just accept it as is :-)
 
@ingo I was in a hurry and overlooked it. :)
 
spaces vs tabs is especially hard to spot.
 
3:52 PM
@ingo There's a lot of details, I'll push the changes in a few minutes. Also some code parts look odd to me, like print [ ].
Also, the annotations term is not used anywhere in the Rebol2/3 docs AFAIK. The proper term is attributs, Red/System uses it too, so will Red.
 
What's odd about print [], especially? It's been some time since I programmed in anything.
 
Another thing: you're parsing twice func-name spec block, why?
@ingo What output do you expect from printing an empty block?
 
@DocKimbel because I added the USAGE part in retrospect after finding it in the r3 help oputput. And at that time I had invested so much in the rest of the rule, that I didn't want to change it.
@DocKimbel I'm not sure what you mean with "printing an empty block"?
 
@ingo What is line 14 supposed to do? (print [ ])
 
Ooops, these are the dangers of release early.
 
4:01 PM
@ingo No problem, I'm cleaning up all of these oddities. ;)
 
@DocKimbel It's an editing left-over. Now that I'm looking at it, it's the "t" from line 13th 'prin .
 
@ingo The double parsing of func-name specs is annoying...
 
In other word, kill that line, and use print in the line above is what should have been done.
 
@ingo Done.
 
Yes, you are right with double parsing.
 
4:04 PM
Also, all get func-name can be replaced by the shorther :func-name.
@ingo Ok, we'll keep the double parsing for now, alternatives might be more costly.
Hmm, my comment about get func-name is wrong, it is required in some places.
 
@DocKimbel I was unsure now, because I had changed the argument to lit-word! along the way. But I had been bitten by it before, that's why the 'get is there.
I had the idea of just molding a copy/types instead of the first parse, but I'll get a "not yet implemented" error.
 
@ingo /types refinement is not yet implemented for copy.
 
Yes, I thought so.
@DocKimbel Sorry, I'll have to go now, I am unsure about how much time I'll have until monday. See you later.
And thank you for accepting this PR, and cleaning up the mess.
I'll get it into a better shape before issueing a PR next time, I had hoped for feedback like this in advance of the merge ...
 
4:23 PM
@ingo Sorry, my fault, I merged it too early. Thanks for the work anyway. :)
 
@DocKimbel No worries, I'm honoured that you accepted my PR so fast, or does this have anythiing to do with some imminent news @HostileFork talked about?
By for now.
 
@ingo The timing of your PR was good, because I would like to improve the console experience a bit before the release of the Red article on CSDN in China on 24th.
 
4:44 PM
@DocKimbel I think you may know this based on your conversation, but at least the encapped version has a broken console because it isn't finding the help.red file
 
@kealist Yes, I've fixed it, just not pushed the changes yet.
 
@DocKimbel Cool. Just wanted to double check and not make an unnecessary issue
 
@kealist Thanks. :) I just pushed it now.
 
5:01 PM
@DocKimbel Waiting to test when automated builds catch up
 
@kealist It should be almost immediate. It's available now.
(except for Mac OSX target, we still have some issues to fix on the Mac backend we are using)
 
@DocKimbel Finally refreshed just now. Was seeing the old: red-21feb14-db2e03d.exe and getting a 404 after many refresh/closing window/reopening site
so I'm good now
Just took some time
@DocKimbel Getting this now:
C:\Users\kealist\Documents\GitHub\RS-fossil-mirror\cURL\examples>red-21feb14-f2a3978.exe
Pre-compiling Red console...
*** Driver Internal Error: Access Error : Cannot open /C/Users/kealist/Documents/GitHub/RS-fossil-mirror/cURL/examples/boot.red
*** Where: read-binary-cache
*** Near:  [any [get-cache file read/binary file]]
 
@kealist Hmm, looks like I tested the changes only from Red root folder...
 
The encapped version seems like a very different beast :)
 
5:17 PM
@kealist Main issue is that paths handling for files requires a different method, because all Red core files are in memory.
 
5:43 PM
@kealist Should be fixed now. Let me know if they are regressions.
 
@DocKimbel - will you later on publish the article also on your blog site?
 
@ingo (and others) Please have a look at this commit.
@pekr Yes, if I'm allowed to do so. ;-)
 
Understandable. So - are you glad it is over and once again back to coding? :-)
 
@DocKimbel Working fine so far; Will do. Thanks for the quick work
 
@pekr Sure I am... I am very slow at almost everything else that is not coding. ;-)
 
5:47 PM
as for Red help commnads. I liked R3 addition - why?, which pointed out to the web describing the obtained error message ...
 
@pekr We can add these functions once we get networking...and an adequate web site. :)
 
I expect the networking (I/O) being next? Well, in the past I remember you wanted to improve console (unicode) even before IO?
 
@pekr Yes, I'm planning to work on the Unicode runtime lexer first, as I need it for moving the console to Unicode and for additional datatypes required for VID support.
I hope to finish with the Unicode and console work this weekend so I can move back to finish View/VID first version.
BTW, I'm travelling back to Paris on Tuesday, as I need to gather all the documents required for the Chinese working visa, so I'll be staying in Paris probably 2-3 weeks in order to finish that.
 
6:40 PM
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 160 so chat away!
 
 
1 hour later…
8:09 PM
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 428 so chat away!
 
8:48 PM
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 133 so chat away!
 
dab
is this a real time chat? O.o
 
@dab yep
 
dab
oh cool
ok bye xD
 
bye
 
 
2 hours later…
10:37 PM
@ingo I have extended HELP function with unset! and datatype! argument special processing. Feel free to refactor the code and improve it.
The Rebol3 HELP output and features are very good, we should copy them.
 
@DocKimbel I'm going to start looking over Red to check for Rebol compatibility stuff, at least for compatibility with the intended behavior of Rebol instead of the actual behavior. Just for consensus discussions, at least until I understand the code base well enough.
 
Seems some bug fixing has been done to R3 to fix rendering issues
 
@BrianH Ok, but you will probably stumble upon a lot of details that are not yet implemented. You're warned. ;-)
 
http://rebol.info/altme/106/ann-reply#msg2967
 
@DocKimbel I have a question about PARSE AHEAD, based on a misunderstanding of your announcement docs. Is AHEAD like AND or like AND OPT ? The docs imply that it's like AND OPT, with no AND implemented.
 
10:43 PM
Dunno why r3gui issues are being discussed in ann-reply :(
 
@BrianH AHEAD is equivalent to OPT, but not consuming input, so it should work the same as AND (unless I missed something).
 
@DocKimbel So it's like AND OPT. AND fails unless the rule succeeds, matching isn't optional.
 
Sailfish OS 1.0 has been released. news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57619252-94/… Target for R3 ?
 
That makes AHEAD a good addition to add to Rebol too, and AND to add to Red :)
 
@BrianH Wait...my description sounds odd, let me recheck PARSE code...:)
@BrianH AHEAD is supposed to be equivalent to AND, but my comment about AHEAD/OPT might be wrong.
 
10:48 PM
@DocKimbel AHEAD meaning AND OPT is actually a better meaning for that name than it meaning AND. AND is a better name for AND.
I'm also wondering why COLLECT SET needs the SET. Is it to make the rules easier to understand?
 
@BrianH AHEAD <rule>: matches input, but doesn't advance it. If rule doesn't match, it backtracks.
 
@DocKimbel yeah, AND is a better name for that operation. We should make AHEAD mean AND OPT.
 
@BrianH Enhancement from @earl, it was to remove an ambiguous pattern IIRC.
 
@DocKimbel don't see why it's ambiguous, since the argument rule would need a block to make the INTO not ambiguous. But I haven't seen the code.
 
@BrianH SET wasn't present in the first COLLECT release, but @earl raised a point about it. I'm searching the discussions history to try to find the case that was making it useful...
 
10:57 PM
@DocKimbel AHEAD rule makes sense when it's strictly done for lookahead (no following clause), while AND rule makes sense if there is a following clause. I've never seen the operation used without a following rule, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. So it might be a good idea to have AHEAD be another word for AND that would be used when you want to make your rules look better if there is nothing following the clause.
Also, it looks like KEEP could use an ONLY option, and CHANGE is still on the todo list, as is INSERT ONLY (expression). Maybe I'll get a handle on the code base in time to contribute these :)
 
If SET is removed from COLLECT SET, then forms like [collect a b] are ambiguous, 'a could be a word! (COLLECT SET operation) or could refer to a block! (COLLECT [...] operation).
 
@DocKimbel I thought the [...] was already required to resolve the ambiguity between COLLECT INTO word rule and COLLECT INTO rule. Or is that only required in the INTO case?
 
@BrianH INSERT ONLY is implemented, the others are not. You are welcome to add them, but remember that Red's runtime is coded in Red/System, not C. ;-) Though, you probably would be surprised how fast you could grasp Red/System already knowing Rebol and C. ;-) You should be fluent in a matter of hours.
 
@DocKimbel if "a matter of hours" requires reading the docs, that's likely :)
 
@BrianH You can always use a word to indirectly refer to a block as last argument of COLLECT.
 
11:08 PM
@DocKimbel then the ambiguity is there. So, options take precedence over composition when there is ambiguity?
 
@BrianH Yes, including reading the docs. Once that done, you will be flying into Red's runtime in no time. :)
@BrianH PARSE keywords take precedence in ambiguous cases, yes. The added flexibility in indirectly referring to COLLECT body blocks is really welcome.
 
@DocKimbel it would be a keyword either way. I mean, for example, collect into will always mean COLLECT operation COLLECT's INTO option, rather than COLLECT operation INTO operation. It would check for options first before checking whether it was a rule.
 
@BrianH I always add a hard time understanding what AND meant in Rebol3's PARSE. It is just too abstract for practical usage. Also syntactically, andis suppose to be in-between words that are linked by it, not in front of them. It makes the AND syntax very odd and hard to read IMHO. And if I have a hard time with it, I know that a lot of newcomers will do too.
@BrianH AND is a lookahead operation, so I proposed a few alternative names, like: TRY, FETCH, AHEAD,... and that was the one that won the consensus.
 
@DocKimbel The code pattern is almost always AND rule some-other-rule. But AHEAD rule would make sense if the clause was at the end of a block of rules or alternation section.
 
@BrianH AND as described in the PARSE project wiki: Purpose: A look-ahead rule: Matches the parse rule without changing the current position.
 
11:20 PM
@DocKimbel Do you support a general COLLECT rule form? That is what I'm asking about: where rule is SET word rule or INTO rule, which would be ambiguous with the COLLECT SET word rule or COLLECT INTO word rule. If you support the general COLLECT rule form, I was guessing that maybe the COLLECT option rule form took precedence.
@DocKimbel I know, I wrote that. I was just mentioning why we called the operation AND.
 
FYI Brett and I found it difficult to come up with good AND examples. Here is what we ended up with in his updated parse tutorial
 
I was just starting with PARSE because I still remember the rationale for everything in the Parse Project, and all of the code patterns expressed in there. So I'm more likely to have a clue about the corresponding operations in Red while I'm getting up to speed on the rest :)
 
@BrianH Well, in the PEG formal concept, the name of this operation is AND, I thought that was the reason for choosing it.
@BrianH Yes, COLLECT rule is the basic form that Red supports.
 
@DocKimbel Nope, that was a bonus. It was the code patterns we were expecting it to be used in. Peta didn't mention the PEG stuff until after we chose the name.
 
@BrianH can you give code where AND and AHEAD behave differently?
 
11:27 PM
@HostileFork They shouldn't behave differently. BrianH was just mislead by one of my comment about AHEAD and OPT being similar.
 
@HostileFork according to Doc, they don't. It's just that the name AND looks dumb if the clause is the last in the rule block or alternate, something we didn't consider. AHEAD looks better in that case. So I'm proposing that we support both names so we can make our rules look less dumb.
@DocKimbel you might want to update that comment :)
 
@BrianH Is it in the PARSE blog entry?
 
@DocKimbel yup.
 
@johnk We just hat a very good example the other day: PARSE code to match a set-word! inside a block:
2 days ago, by earl
@RebolBot
print parse [return] [and set-word! quote return:]
print parse [return:] [and set-word! quote return:]
2 days ago, by RebolBot
; Brought to you by: http://tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
false
true
 
@BrianH look-ahead rule, optionally match the rule, but do not advance input. Indeed, wrong description, matching is not optional. Thanks for pointing that out, I missed it completly.
 
11:31 PM
Type-checking is a significant part of practical AND usage. In my opinion, in these cases AND reads better than AHEAD.
 
@BrianH Fixed.
 
@earl thanks - much cleaner example
 
@johnk Most of the code I saw using AND was for combining datatype and value testing in block parsing, like parse [1] [and integer! quote 1]. For that kind of code the name AND made more sense. But if you're doing straightup lookahead matching, like parse [a b] [['a and 'b | 'c] 'b] then AND looks silly, so parse [a b] [['a ahead 'b | 'c] 'b] looks better. So we need both names.
 
sounds good to me
 
@DocKimbel nice.
 
11:36 PM
@BrianH I'm afraid that having both would be even more confusing to most users, they won't know which one to use...
 
I think AHEAD integer! Quote 1 makes sense. And AHEAD [not rule] makes sense to be a way to ask to lookahead and not match something where NOT consumes.
@RebolBot do parse "a" [not "a"]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== false
 
@DocKimbel I think it will be OK as long as they are identical in behavior and documented as such. Then it would just be a matter of preference, hopefully for the situation.
 
@rebolbot do parse "b" [not "a"]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== false
 
11:39 PM
That should return true IMO
 
@HostileFork not does lookahead too.
 
I think that the AND rule operation can be interpreted as a simple atomic lookahead of rule. The more sophisticated interpretation linking rule to what follows it, looks more complicated to me than the first one (even if it's the academic way to interpret it). That is why I went to a name that suggest trying-without-moving.
@BrianH Yeah, STAY would have been better indeed, I would have used it for Red.
 
@DocKimbel that was the rationale for Carl's suggested name of STAY. AND looked better in the most common case.
 
@brianh I know, but the name doesn't convey it, it would be clearer to say ahead [not rule]
An advancing not is NOT rule SKIP... That is just not as obvious.
 
@DocKimbel we picked the most powerful operation of the two proposals. The advancing one has an ambiguous meaning of how far to advance, since the only thing we can say about the rule is that it didn't match, and so was verified to not apply to the data. So, how much nothing should you go forward? The PEG/TDPL NOT made more sense.
 
11:45 PM
PARSE "ABC" [3 [not "X"]] should be true. AHEAD is a nice word for when you want lookahead.
 
I'm going to advance zero steps a million times! It's amazing how far that would take me!
 
Hmm.
 
You keep using simple rules in your examples. How far should the not clause in parse "abc" [3 not ["xxx" | "yy"]] advance, three or two steps? What do you mean it only advances once? Having it advance at all makes the rule ambiguous to people.
 
These things should be explained in notes. I guess that is true. Interesting. You could conceivably state the number of steps to advance but I guess you use skip for that. Point conceded.
 
@BrianH I understand the logic behind the NOT command, the issue is to explain it in a simple and meaningful way to users, so that each time they are confronted to it, they don't have to look at the PARSE docs again.
 
11:53 PM
@HostileFork Yeah, we had that argument when I was managing the Parse Project. Unfortunately, we had the habit of discussing things on AltME back then, often in private if they got heated, so the reasons behind the decisions we made got lost sometimes.
 
I think that example points it out. I always like counterexamples. But maybe AHEAD NOT could be a compound primitive with NOT disallowed otherwise?
 
@DocKimbel I'll see what I can do about helping phrase those docs so they're understood.
@HostileFork NOT AHEAD makes more sense when reading the rules :)
 
@BrianH That would be helpful. The Parse project page is great, but probably too abstract sometimes for users.
 
@RebolBot do parse "" [not "a"]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== true
 
11:57 PM
@BrianH Just use complemented bitsets in combination with NOT for more fun. ;-)
 
That result from that code example is reasonable, and impossible for an advancing NOT. Part of the reason we went with NOT 2 instead of NOT 1 :)
 
Well either way, and you could throw an error if you got "NOT must be followed by ahead" and then people would go "wait, why is that" and look up that and find the example. Current NOT and AND are confusing by comparison to NOT AHEAD with AHEAD
 
@DocKimbel can you specify bitset builder expressions inline with your PARSE dialect? That would be cool.
 

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