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5:01 PM
wait you're voting.. despite it not having the hybrid option i presented?
there's no need to be limited to one repo - but at the same time i'm against the idea of one repo per everything
this needs to be a balance - otherwise we're doing the samething that's already on the internet
 
@Aleksbgbg I tried to find my first message, think it was 2013
 
the idea isn't to rewrite the code on internet in new syntax - the idea is to improve to the point we don't have to hold hands for new folks and samples do it for them
 
I did not catch the hybrid option, sry
mind repeating it?
 
i just did right up there ^
3 mins ago, by Maverik
there's no need to be limited to one repo - but at the same time i'm against the idea of one repo per everything
 
should a thing like the BindingSample be in its own repo?
 
5:06 PM
the idea of folder per sample is bad too - there would be folders within folders.. and there's no real focus
 
And should there be a sample like it?
 
It could be.. we could have 1. SimpleBinding as its starting branch
 
I'd think we'd start with one repo at first --- basic examples.
 
wait no
 
No to me, or Johan?
 
5:07 PM
Johan .. and myself
 
I think I'm ok with pretty much anything as things can be refactored so easily
 
got confused in all the variations :)
 
At least until someone starts using it
after that it should probably not be moved around much
 
anyways.. so we could have a Bindings repo -> 1. Starting sample (that you just did) -> Sample that builds up and perhaps presents the final version with converters
 
5:08 PM
But maybe no biggie as I'd imagine beginners to work through the samples pretty fast
 
perhaps we can add a third complex version on top showing custom bindings
or perhaps we could show MultiBinding as next step
 
there's certainly multiple ways to do this.. but there's an order of complexity
 
1.x level would be bare minimum to know
 
dumping it in one sample doesn't help -- dumping it in folders not only pollutes - it doesn't show evolution
how a newbie may learn to improve and refactor own code
 
5:10 PM
Maybe names are better than numbers
 
user7442629
Is it possible to create amazing interfaces like Discord's in WPF?
 
SimpleBindingSample
 
well sure.. its just an idea of course - it could be any suitable name
 
SimpleConverterSample
 
Right - I'd think the basic repo is "beginner". How do I set up a viewmodel? How do I databind a property? How do I bind a command?
These are things that we need to bootstrap each an every newbie with.
 
user7442629
5:11 PM
Where can I subscribe to this, extremely useful stuff
 
wait Lynn - before you dive further..
which structure are you following in your head from this discussion
Aleksbgbg - this stuff is just here..
you come over - skim over transcript and learn what you can :)
 
@Aleksbgbg the wpf samples project is not yet started, so you may instead focus on following tutorials like wpftutorial.net or wpf-tutorial.com . Searching the transcript of this chat also helps.
 
Beginner -> ICommand -> RelayCommand -> ReactiveCommand
this is one repo - these are branches that are fed off the previous branch
 
user7442629
Gone over the latter in much detail already, no MVVM stuff there
 
user7442629
I know my C# and XAML, the MVVM I'm struggling with, but I guess knowledge/mastery will come with time
 
user7442629
Yeah I've read it
 
Then you should have a good start
MVVM is just a design pattern
more like an architecture pattern really
 
hiya Bradley
 
user7442629
Well yes but I have trouble figuring what goes where and why
Also things like a TreeView are difficult, for example if I have a TreeView and every level's items match the items in a specific ComboBox, I can't figure out how to sync the selection of those items, I can only do it in plain old WinForms style
 
@LynnCrumbling Beginner is better than sample, maybe Basic?
B is nice as it will sort before Intermediate, Advanced is a problem :)
 
5:25 PM
Sure. Something connotates "entry level"
:)
 
But there is probably no need for advanced samples
 
I see it less a matter of "levels of mastery", and more a matter of "levels of refactoring/progression"
 
@Aleksbgbg Stay regular and ask if you have questions.
 
^^ Things like TreeView just tend to be difficult :)
 
Yeah, TreeView is def intermediate
so, is everything decided now? can we start whipping out samples?
 
5:27 PM
An "example" inherently builds upon itself. It may grow more complex, but it might also become simpler by way of leveraging a framework. (Rx)
 
not sure if anyone answered the Discourse question, but of course you could make that interface in WPF. Just not for the web
 
Suggestion: we can use stars as a way to signal that we have reviewed and approved
 
Question about the whole samples thing; isn't this kind of what SO docs are for?
Or did I miss the part in the conversation where that was nixed?
 
^ laff; mav
@BradleyDotNET Side skype convo: Me: "Any interest in leveraging SO's new DOCs section, as opposed to git?" Mav: "can't do this in a documentation system?"
 
user7442629
@BradleyDotNET okay thanks, was just wondering as it seems a bit difficult, though I guess it's not a simple piece of code and was made by many people to begin with
 
5:29 PM
@BradleyDotNET docs can't be cloned and run
But I have to admit I have not even looked at the so docs thing.
 
Granted, the tradeoff would seem to be visibility/searchability
 
I like the ability to pull the code, as well as advance back and forth in time through commits.
 
Samples are a big part of SO docs though
 
yeah, the samples could be linked from the docs
 
Not sure that's a good idea
more or less the same as link only answers at that point
unless you copied the code in and put the link as reference
 
5:31 PM
you are probably right
 
user7442629
By the way, I am working on an application with a model within model, and initially my view's bindings were something like DateTime.Day.TimeOfDay.Seconds, however later I created properties in my ViewModel so instead I would have just Seconds as the binding, as I recollect that 'View knows not Model', and so this was a correct change, right?
 
I would say an irrelevant change
Dotting through objects isn't a problem
 
Bradley do you really think SO.Docs can take the sort of sampling approach we're talking about? (i haven't explored it just heard people not like it in general)
 
user7442629
So the view can reference Model?
 
I think it would work for most of what you are talking about
@Aleksbgbg not directly, no. But knowing the shape of the model isn't a big deal
 
5:33 PM
not sure that made sense to him :D
 
user7442629
Okay thanks
 
This is basically the "what layer do DTOs live in" question
 
in between ether is the right answer i think :)
 
for which my answer is "outside of all the layers, all sides know about them"
in-between works too :)
The biggest problem I see with Docs is the cloneability aspect
the samples in docs are basically large SO answers
in terms of format/capability at least
but you do get the versioning, topics, etc for free
 
I also find another issue with SO.Docs - it's editable by anybody..
or am I wrong?
 
5:35 PM
Whether that is an issue or not depends on your perspective I suppose
I think you have to have score in the tag to do most functions though
 
if folks can just go in there and "simplify" it -- it's no longer what we intended to relay
take ICommand for example - a million people have suggested there's no need.. just use relaycommand
and half a million do blindly use it
 
I think you'll find that the culture is basically the same as SO
no changing intent, just typos etc.
If people really like relay command they can add their own sample
and votes will make it rise to the top... or not
 
but we're not excluding it in our approach - we're suggesting a staged approach within the same "article" which is our code sample
i think the stuff we're talking about is a bit too opinionated to be open to all sorts of editing
 
yeah, it probably doesn't fit as well for that
 
The ability for others to groom our original intent is a huge negative to me -- enough to abandon that proposal altogether.
 
5:37 PM
i mean just look at the discussion this has sparked (not a bad thing of course)
and this is within "our house" where we know each other for years and how each of us tends to code
 
Mav, you've launched me into a full on analysis paralysis about my JSON. :P
 
aaa what?
oh right dictionary
shush for now :P
 
we're in middle of making history!
 
waits intensely
 
5:39 PM
like literally :) -- we're trying to figure out how to write said history!
 
I see some synergy with docs, but maybe that is just taking select examples and porting them to it with a link
 
that sounds good to me
 
speaking of which, has anyone decided on the license?
 
we can certainly use some documentation / explanation
no we haven't gone that far :)
 
user2509848
@BradleyDotNET I propose the Unlicense.
 
5:40 PM
i'd imagine MIT or something of that sort?
 
mit sounds good
 
MIT seems reasonable, or even CC-BySA if we want to be consistent with SO
 
MIT is my defacto license for anything opensource.
 
user2509848
I like the Unlicense for stuff like this because it essentially says "here is the content, take it or leave it, no citation required."
 
problem with stuff like that is people are less familiar with it
hadn't even heard of it until you mentioned it
 
5:41 PM
well the same is true for WTFLicense (its an actual license!)
exactly what bradley said :)
 
54
Q: What is wrong with the Unlicense?

cgtI have often heard that I should not use the Unlicense because of issues regarding putting things into the public domain. However, I do not understand why this would be an issue for the Unlicense. The Unlicense attempts to put whatever is being unlicensed into the public domain, and if that works...

 
never heard about unlicense before but it sounds good
 
user2509848
 
there is also the public domain thing, don't remember the name, creative commons maybe
 
user2509848
@JohanLarsson Unlicense dedicates everything to the public domain.
 
5:43 PM
CC-BySA (Creative Commons by Software Attribution i believe) is what SO is using
 
Take a look at the link I posted Hosch. :) It has some issues it seems.
 
user2509848
@Maverik CC-by-SA 3.0, I think.
 
Might've changed though, since the post is from 12. :)
 
user2509848
@WilliamMariager Meh, Germany has problems.
 
5:44 PM
still i think it's rather early to be spending time for this and any reasonable public domain license will do
preferably one that's familiar to folks
 
user2509848
Their thinking style hasn't changed in 2k years.
 
user7442629
You mentioned earlier to stay away from multiple windows, why was that?
 
bad ux
 
Multiple windows are fine when it makes sense, but there has to be a good reason.
 
user7442629
Oh alright
 
5:45 PM
You don't need them. Changing out your data context (viewmodel) can inherently show a completely different screen. Different DC = different DataTemplate.
 
You wouldn't want to use something like MS Word if it couldn't open documents in multiple windows.
 
but these are special scenarios - and not a project you'd be doing as one man
 
Eh, now you're talking about the semantics about the ability to see multiple viewmodels at once.
You can still pull that off with one window :)
 
by the time projects deserving multiple windows land on your desk, you'll either have a lead to guide you or you'd have accumulated enough experience to make that judgement call :)
lol Lynn - I didn't see that coming but i agree!
 
user7442629
Let's say a data form, for example 'generate a new file', I would want the user to enter the file name, extension, path, etc., but I wouldn't want that in the window since it's irrelevant most of the time, I can have a new window for that right?
 
5:47 PM
By the way -- using a viewmodel to change out content -- example!
 
yes for sure
 
Did we agree on naming {0 - BindingSample, BasicBindingSample, SimpleBindingSample, ???}
 
that & triggers are two of tutorials I've wanted most
no Johan - that got lost in (lack of) structural agreement
 
in the lack of structure :)
 
i didn't see anybody commenting further and discussion got steered to licensing
 
5:48 PM
can we make a gist that is editable by all on gitlab?
 
user2509848
I think we are bike shedding something fierce. Maybe Johan should just make the first, and the rest can follow his guidelines. If something becomes an issue, address it when it is an issue.
 
So it seems like we are going to write the "versions" of each example long before committing them - so that we can commit them in order, with no extraneous interruptions.. (read: no extra commits/typo fixes)
 
PS: this is what I was talking about for license: wtfpl.net
 
multi-windows solves airspace, which is nice
 
5:50 PM
I'm not sure about this time travel thing
 
but that is the only time I've ever used it
 
not suggesting we use it of course .. cos nobody really knows about it
 
I think it may just add complexity
 
sounds like reasonable agreement on MIT; I'd just go w/ that
 
I'm thinking small clean samples that can be cloned and played with
 
user2509848
5:51 PM
@JohanLarsson Looks fine to me.
 
It's going to be an extra thing to have to explain to newbs -- that they can't just pull the latest -- they need to pull a SPECIFIC commit.
 
@JohanLarsson yea there's snippets but we can just use normal gist for it -- normally this sort of thing is done via a Design issue
 
user2509848
Oh, we need converter samples.
 
and discussion occurs via comments
 
And that we try to review things so that they d not contain dumbs or advanced things in the beginner stuff
 
5:51 PM
@Aleksbgbg for getting a path from user, you'd normally use a OpenFileDialog or SaveFileDialog
 
Hosch already suggested that - Johan started from binding example but we can build on it to cover various binding related things
 
@Maverik oh, yeah, should we create a repo for dicsussion, or maybe create issues on the docs repo yu created?
 
Of course, that opens up the "showing dialogs from view models" discussion :)
 
user7442629
@milleniumbug Well yeah but how about a name of a folder
 
nah let me make a new subgroup for samples
 
5:53 PM
SelectFolderDialog
from WinForms
 
user7442629
A new folder
 
that much we agree already :) -- whatever we're going to do is sample specific
 
same thing
 
user7442629
That I want to create for the user
 
Another example -- MVVM considerations for View Callbacks.
 
5:53 PM
Make your own dialog?
 
Is someone jotting these down?
 
user7442629
Yeah, so a new window, right?
 
I'd still use SelectFolderDialog
 
no - you can just throw up a grid, centered, on top of your current window.
 
@JohanLarsson name it Samples (as sub-org/sub-group) ? or MvvmSamples? in case we endup with a different version of samples in future.. like perhaps DI stuff?
 
5:54 PM
Give it a border, make it "look" like a window... but it isn't. Just another layer.
 
You only need a new windows if you want it modeless
I think ;)
 
@Maverik WpfSamples?
I refuse to contribute if we name it MVVM :D
 
WpfMvvmSamples :)
 
Lynn - we'll just do issues for Topics we want to cover - and add tasks within them for details
erm its already under So-WPF
so wpf is redundant
YAGNI - Samples it is -- if we need to deal with in future.. we'll rename new stuff
 
user7442629
Well let me elaborate, I have a 'New Application' button: on clicking it, you specify a name for your application, and it will generate Dropbox/[name]/[name].exe, and Dropbox/[name]/ChangeLog.txt
 
user7442629
5:56 PM
How would be the best way to get the name
 
user7442629
I was thinking a textbox inside the listview which shows other applications, however I find that difficult to manage
 
Samples is good
next is naming of samples
 
made gitlab.com/so-wpf/samples I imagine you folks with existing memberships already have full access
 
Lots of ways to accomplish the "new item" flow
more of a UX question really
 
how do I join
 
5:58 PM
just click on it.. link it with github and it should let you make a request
 
The general trend is away from dialogs however
 
alternatively give me your user link that you just created and I'll add you myself
 
Why not start with a "Add" button that makes a text box + confirmation button appear next to it?
or something like that
 
(doesn't have to be linked to github, you're free to create a new account too)
 

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