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12:41 PM
Where is everyone?
 
Holiday
 
12:56 PM
Silly geese.
Yesterday was the Holiday. They put it conveniently on a perma-sunday.
 
In Sweden Friday & Monday are holidays every year
At least I think today is a holiday :)
No one has called so it is prolly right
 
1:45 PM
hah
 
2:10 PM
hi
 
hello
 
2:50 PM
you guys familiar with the difference between the "Build" and "Deploy" checkboxes in config manager?
 
3:27 PM
posted on April 21, 2014 by Immo Landwerth [MSFT]

At Build we announced two great ways to re-use your code: the new Universal Windows apps, and the improved portable class libraries. They both help you reuse code across platforms. In this post, I’ll describe both options and how you can choose between them. Overview Why two options? The short answer is that shared projects are about sharing source code and assets, while portable class

 
Sup peeps
 
heyy
 
3:43 PM
:)
 
hey all
 
heyy julien
 
4:14 PM
hey Andre, Juilen
 
@NETscape I always assumed deploy did all the packaging needed to install the application, sorta like publish.
 
I'm tired of smiley faces when I don't know what to say but want to show that I'm present
 
:) is the best answer on the Internet
 
well i can't check "Deploy" on my C# projects, but I can on my C++ project
 
4:16 PM
"yo."
 
Why am I always lazy
I have to do a simple job and I can't :(
 
@AndréSilva threevirtues.com
 
Haha I'm reading already haha
That is excelent
Well, see you guys later
Today is holiday here in Brazil so I'm really lazy today :(
 
lates
 
@Billdr how did you get into security? did it start in uni?
 
4:30 PM
I have zero formal education in security.
I worked with a guy who was going to school with it. I was able to hold conversations about security with him. When he got a real job he called to see if I was looking.
I happened to be looking at the time. I was supposed to crunch reports. That was mad boring. So I started programming myself out of a job.
Then they were like, "Hey, check this guy's website. We think it might be vulnerable to the haxorz." Turns out it was.
social engineering is social engineering, and it's a big part of the job. I'd suggest reading Kevin Mitnik's "Ghost on the Wire" as an intro to the art. I'm terrible at it though, so take that with a grain of salt.
 
read that book.
 
inspiring, i just don't know how you get into a job that requires like 10 years of experience when you can't find a security job out there for entry level stuff, let alone the lack of formal education opportunities in the public uni system
 
Eeeh, security is an understaffed industry. I bet if you apply for an analyst gig and you can stumble through an explanation of how asymmetric cryptography works you'll be fine.
 
if you a blackhat hacker, and you're in an interview, do you tell the company you're a blackhat hacker?
 
4:37 PM
We're hiring, like always.
No.
 
not that i am haha. i can wish
just a thought i had
 
You talk about the things you understand. Give an example of a time you were a white hat.
 
i wish i could find something in my area, just signed a year lease
 
Where are you?
 
do you have any good technical books to begin reading? certs that make you credible. stuff like that?
MilwWI
 
4:39 PM
Shoot me a resume. bill.strait@gmail.com
 
okay, I'll have to update it.
 
I can't say anything about anything, I've got to talk to some people. I may circle back for some high-level vetting.
I hold no relevant certifications. I also earn about 20% less than either one of my job titles say I should. Those are the books I have seen around the office though.
 
totally understandable. security always peaks my interest like none other
whattt
i would think security is going to make higher than avg.
 
I do make higher than average.
 
hey reed. got that project working and integrated.
what would you say is average up there?
 
4:43 PM
And more than my experience says I should make. But not as much as the guy doing security with a CISSP after his name.
 
right
what was the company name again? i rather you not respond to my question, rather i'll glassdoor it
 
@NETscape For salary info? There's just way too many variables involved int hat one
I find 'average salary' numbers are always BS
 
I'm probably going for MSCD in the very near term.
We're a small shop, I doubt glassdoor has anything on use. I don't know a certified consultant making less than $100k.
 
yeah. i agree reed. gotcha bill. that helps though. thanks
that cissp exam rigorous I'm guessing?
 
Local big shops that have internal security would be 3M, Saint Jude Medical, Medtronics, Target, and Best Buy.
"It's a mile wide and an inch deep."
 
4:47 PM
i met a guy on the mississippi fishing, that said his son worked at cisco and would do security conferences/courses all over the world. said his son wouldn't tell him how much he made, but that he did bring home a 400k bonus.
 
I imagine doing security at Cisco is probably about as high up as you can go.
"We want you to make sure no one breaks the internet."
 
yeah
 
Also, no one on the planet knows how to properly configure iOS so they probably sell those guys out too.
 
they are probably approaching salaries that almost touch reeds ;)
 
What do you do, Reed?
 
4:50 PM
he's a CTO, check his profile. i'm just kidding though.
 
speaking of demonstrating knowledge, I could use a hand in the MVC room. These days it's just me and help vampires. I don't know the answer to all the questions.
and even then, I get tired of answering them. I'd like to be able to switch off sometimes.
 
i'll be of no use, but i'll help if i can lol
 
it's mostly mvc and webforms. The general questions end up in C# I imagine.
 
i started standfords itunes u course for iOS and help me understand MVVM. started shooting myself in the foot.
 
Cisco's iOS, not Apple's.
Cisco probably should have sued Apple over that one too.
 
5:00 PM
that was a general statement... kinda saying i only know limited MVC
want to help me realize MVVM setup? The application should be a sort a project explorer... If you have a model Project with List<IProjectItem> Items whats your VM supposed to look like?
 
That's probably a Reed question. I know next-to-nothing about MVVM.
 
way to general a question
 
well looking at Visual Studio
 
your vm should contain getters for data you want displayed
 
would Solution be a model?
and there would be SolutionViewModel...
 
5:06 PM
to me a model is a class where you would do something like a database operation
so it would get information which you would then create a view model from
 
@Billdr I've got a company that makes 3d modeling software for geologists and similar - mostly environmental cleanup related
 
dont really get your VS analogy
 
and the Solution model would have List<Project> Projects, where Project is also a model?
 
um. the Solution Explorer would be a View Model
it would have an ObservableCollection of Projects
 
Neat! So that scene in Jurassic Park where they shoot a radar pellet into the ground and get a picture of what the ground underneath looks like?
 
5:08 PM
each Project would be a ViewModel
 
okay, and what about when you save everything
 
a project would have an ICommand for Save
the solution explorer would also have one that would call its projects Save
 
right, but then if you're saving everything, wouldn't they be a model?
 
to me that is where the distinction between view model and model gets hazy
in my current app i do server calls in my vm
 
right, that's where i'm at
 
5:10 PM
when you do the save, are you saving properties of the view model?
it doesnt make much sense to move it somewhere else if you just need to feed it the vm anyways
theres an argument for keeping the code seperated, but im not sure you gain much
 
well if Project wasn't a model, then would properties of the VM kind of have to be getting saved?
 
probably
 
but I'm not dealing with databases at all. so my thinking is more "Solution is a model"
which is the "database" for the software, and when the solution is saved, everything is serialized to a file
@ReedCopsey I'm interested in your thoughts :)
 
@NETscape Well, VS predates the entire architectural pattern in general
but normally, when you think about it, anything that's not specifically tied to a product is the model
so solution/project/files/etc would all be the "model" in VS
 
right
 
5:21 PM
which makes sense - they all work directly from msbuild, Xamarin studio, etc, so they're not tied specifically to VS
 
so then would solution have a list<project> projects and list<file> files and what not?
 
it'd probably have some collection of projects
each project has a set of configuration items, each of which has build items (which could be files)
 
so then when writing the VM for the solution... whats in the VM? do you just return the solution and use solution.projects in XAML and such?
 
if the VM just returns the model whats the point of the vm
 
i'm trying to connect all the dots, i ask myself the same question.
and do you remove the VM and call it a model, or remove the model and call it a VM. I don't like Commands in model or binding straight to a model.
 
5:32 PM
agreed
in your case, i would use a model to load your saved information on startup
and create vms
commands would be on vm
 
@NETscape yeah, basically - all of the stuff that's "VS Specific" would essentially end up being part of the ViewModel layer
so the startup logic, all of the work related to adapting the internal structures to bindable information for the solution explorer, exposing build items/files to the editors, etc
my program is much more like that, btw - there's nothing in MVVM that says "Database" (we don't really use one at all)
 
5:59 PM
open source your software reed :)
 
6:09 PM
lol - doubt that would ever happen or make sense
 
Foo and bar share an interface. In one instance a bar must become a foo. Is the best practice for this to create a foo initializer that uses a bar?
 
how else would you do it
 
@Billdr Well, would be better if you can make a constructor that takes the interface
to avoid coupling the classes together
 
That sounds better, thanks Reed.
 
initializer == constructor right
 
6:22 PM
yeah
well, the way I used it.
 
I wouldn't use the term initializer in C#
because it suggests object or collection initializers
and, in this case, a constructor would be more appropriate
 
7:03 PM
@ReedCopsey so i have packets in my files that i'm parsing, which contain seconds since T. I'm regrettably (i think) storing my packets as a class Packet with a DateTime. Should I change it to a struct? The reason I'm hesitant is because even though I only have one DateTime (which is 8? bytes), I have ~ 20 values that would be ushort. So with alignment would that mean my struct size would be ~168 bytes instead of 88 bytes?
 
sorry, had to change a tire randomly. You're right Reed. I am just terrible with vocabulary.
 
@NETscape it won't be any bigger unless you do something odd to force alignment strangely
but, in general, something that large would typically be a class anyways
is it immutable?
(otherwise, it'll cost a lot to pass in/out of methods, unless you do everything by ref)
 
i guess it would be, yes, so you're right. class it is.
i guess it would be, yes, so you're right. class it is.
i have all the telerik source, where do i add "root" directory of telerik source files in Visual Studio so I can step into their code?
 
normal rule of thumb is >16 bytes should be class ;)
you can't, really
you'd have to build your own version of their stuff
to make the PDB files
so you could step through them
it's a royal pain, since building is almost impossible with most of the vendor's source
 
7:21 PM
well I have the pdbs too
and i added them to the symbols, but it doesn't step inside.
    Telerik.Charting.RadSize dr = new Telerik.Charting.RadSize();
    dr.Height = 50;
maybe it's not stepping inside since its just a default constructor
 
7:36 PM
if RadSize is a struct, there's nothing to step into
 
7:57 PM
its not
 
you sure? it is on their online docs :p
 
resharper does decompiling on the fly and lets you step into source
well, not step into
but view
 
oh, you're right ><
didn't know you could define operators on struct. noobstatus here
 
8:13 PM
so they violate the 16 byte rule ? :)
 
What's in RadSize?
it should just be width + height
which would be 16 bytes
so it's fine as a struct
they do violate the immutable "rule" though
and why in the world they didn't use the built in size I'd never know
(part of why I hate telerik's stuff)
 
@NETscape what is that rule?
 
1 hour ago, by Reed Copsey
normal rule of thumb is >16 bytes should be class ;)
 
yeah - it's 16, not >16
so it's <= 16
 
8:16 PM
but if you have struct B { long b; byte a; } your struct size is 16 bytes
 
is the reason performance?
 
they static readonlys and != and == defined
equals and get hashcode too
 
@NETscape depends on a lot
that's not always true
 
C# 4.0 in a nutshell says that
 
well, it's an implementation detail
 
8:23 PM
> Technically, the CLR positions fields within the type at an address that's a mutliple of the fields' size (up to a maximum of 8 bytes). Thus , the following actually consumes 16 bytes of memory (with the 7 byes following the first field "wasted"): struct A { byte b; long l; }
 
Though, this will be 9 bytes:
[System.Runtime.InteropServices.StructLayout(System.Runtime.InteropServices.LayoutKind.Sequential, Pack=1)]
struct B { public long b; public byte a; }
it's more a matter of the defaults you use
 
is the reason for the 16 byte limit performance?
 
@JohanLarsson For choosing structs? yes. I suspect the issue is that you're larger than the size of a handle in 64bit systems, which means you're copying more into/out of a method than you would using a class
 
is the difference big? I implemented the unit things as classes, that is probably dumb and wrong.
 
well, it really depends on how things work
structs have no memory allocations if you use them in methods, and they can be far more efficient when allocated into an array
but in general, if you have something storing a string, it makes more sense as a class
struct containing a reference type is just odd
 
8:37 PM
I wrote them like classes cos I wanted inheritance, implementation is like enums with inheritance.
Performance is prolly not an issue but it is always fun to microoptimize :)
of course structs could implement interfaces and get ~inheritance~ from that.
 
well, as soon as you try to do much with "inheritance" and structs you typically shoot yourself in the foot
because you introduce boxing
 
9:13 PM
Reed, you said there is no way to get around not showing the print dialog, right?
 
@NETscape ?
you can print without the print dialog
 
room topic changed to WPF: A friendly room for discussing things related to WPF and other things. [c#] [mvvm] [silverlight] [vb.net] [wpf] [xaml]
old one felt so hostile
 
9:29 PM
what was it before? the "you must know MVVM" one?
 
yeah
Not like we have trouble with the chat being flooded
would expect more phone coders here, Microsoft pushed phone hard on build
have you ever received help here in chat?
 
@ReedCopsey PrintDialog.PrintDocument always shows the print dialog.
 
@NETscape You're using the dialog explicitly there
 
I have a class that inherits DocumentPaginator
So should I use PrintVisual instead?
i'm pretty much wanting to match MS Word
as close as I can without having to re-write
 
not sure - not my expertise
 
9:59 PM
but there is a way to print without showing print dialog?
 

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