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2:00 PM
you should keep those categories in their data structure (if it's an array)
 
it'll go well with the space engineers hole I fell into last night
 
so far so good then @ssube
:D
I don't know many artists, I'm not big into the scene. I just enjoy putting on EDM on play music or youtube and letting the stations / videos just organically show up
never been to an edm show
they look fun tho
 
oh they are
it's nice that so much edm is released on youtube, makes it super easy to dj
 
not enough on soundcloud?
:)
 
I always forget about soundcloud
 
2:03 PM
some of the best edm stuff I've heard was on soundcloud.
otherwise, I pretty much never use it
 
yeah, that's why I forget
 
Would "Model" or "DTO" be a better name for an object returned from a "domain store"? This object is mostly just a bag of properties, but may have some 'logic' methods.
 
model = DAO, I think, not so much DTO
 
@KarelG I'm not sure what you mean, it looks like metaKey refers to either command or windows key, but I just want command
 
so if the object has it's own .save() it's a DAO/Model, if I pass it to domainStore.save(object) it's a DTO?
 
2:08 PM
or the DAO's save method relies on the DTO to persist those changes
either way
 
@ssube model is not a class or object
it is a layer containing the business logic
 
the only real reason I split there is because the DTO often gets replaced between node (fs) and browser
 
yea, but like all programming terms, it's abused. :)
 
@tereško no, models don't have business logic, that's the service layer
that's a very important distinction when you're going with the usual 7 layer dip
 
domain models have business logic
 
2:10 PM
"model" contains the service layer
 
models are (de)serialization, not services
 
lol
no
 
That would have how I describe a DTO.
 
well, that's an interesting and creative way to combine those things
 
Anonymous
Where ARE UNICODE 5 CHARACTERS PLEASE PLEASE PHLEP
 
Anonymous
2:11 PM
I NEED IDS AND IDC
 
Anonymous
FROM UNICODE 5
 
....... caps error
 
try pressing caps lock
 
please stop with using caps
 
It's cruise control for cool
 
2:12 PM
heh, i rarely use caps lock. shift is the way to go when i need CAPS
 
Anonymous
Yeah, editt...
 
holding shift shows commitment.
 
Anonymous
It looks like it doesn't show commits
 
it's... POPCORN TIME
 
Anonymous
I pressed...
 
2:14 PM
@corvid the problem is ... it's not usual to look for keypresses on "branded" keys like that window key or mac's command key. The keyCode value differs from browser to browser
 
@ssube you probably should learn architectural patters from shitty javascript frameworks
 
Wat?
 
what?
 
I got a client whom insisted to have some action when using those keys. I gave up after trying. Had a hard time to explain the problem to him. He literally responded with " aren't you a programmer? you should resolve that " ...
 
This deserves dropping the 'h'.
 
2:16 PM
5 mins ago, by ssube
models are (de)serialization, not services
 
like if javascript is C ...
 
judging by your insulting demeanor, I think you meant to say "shouldn't learn"
 
@KarelG xbenjii.co.uk/i/fdhlh Seems pretty standard
 
that was a pretty desperate attempt, especially with the typo
 
Mostly anyway
 
2:17 PM
heh. I believe it was pretty much exactly what it meant, actually
with an ironic touch to it
 
i was talking about those OS keys which is the only keys that differs :P
please remind that it was 2ish years ago, in the hell of "IE support" period
 
but more seriously @ssube, I really wonder about that plural models view (no pun intended) of yours. seeing models as multiple distinct types really hindered my understanding, and ability to develop working and maintainable stuff.
 
and if you listen to the left one, then you should listen to the right one because both are "same keys" for the end user ;)
 
@ssube fyi, service layer contains what is called "application logic", what you call "models" are probably domain later, that contains the business logic ... and then there is also persistence layer
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier "seeing models as multiple distinct types" model just means the marshalled version of your data
 
2:19 PM
all of those combined are "the model"
 
there are a bunch of em
they're very lightweight
@tereško not "the model," models. No wonder you were so confused.
 
no, the model
the model, of an application
no wonder you are so confused
 
the model and individual models are different concepts
 
individual models doesn't exist
 
wat?
 
plenty of frameworks use something to hold deserialized data
 
an application, has one "model" that represents its entities, or real world entities, and the links between them
 
tereško is describing what I call the "domain model". The term "models" is used in many ways. even abused.
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier and many small models containing individual records
 
@ssube yeah, because frameworks are the source of architecture
 
2:21 PM
the lighter weight individual models might be better called "DTO"s
 
@ssube ... bah, I call those entities
 
the M in MVC isn't the conceptual model of the whole app: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model%E2%80%93view%E2%80%93controller
 
> show me on the diagram where the layer touched you
 
for fuck sake
 
@BenFortune so command/windows is osleft and osright?
 
2:21 PM
@tereško it's from MVC nub
that's how they define model, whether it's useful or not
 
I'd go for the not useful
and actually harmful
 
@tereško chill out. you have some good points but present them in a sarcastic way that comes off as nothing but pompous
 
@ssube oh, joy, some Rails developer has edited MVC wiki page again. That diagram has been fucked up again.
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier you're always going to have some type describing the marshalled data
 
because it transmits this idea that models, views and controllers have this one to one relationship
and stuff like laravel happen
 
2:23 PM
@tereško sure buddy
 
@ssube yes indeed. entities. built by mappers.
 
teresko pompous ?
hah
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier or DAOs built by DTOs, or models built by services, or any number of other names
 
those are the smallest blocks in the bigger conceptual model
 
2:24 PM
oh, for fucks sake
I give up, this is just making me angry
 
you seem to get angry very quickly.
 
have a beer
 
@tereško err... how are you be sure of that?
 
I be anger, the destromonger of worlds
The hartroyer of the end times
 
@KarelG about it being a rails developer, not entirely sure
 
2:26 PM
I started this conversation but admitting that the term 'model' was being stretched, but that wasn't enough to prevent someone from getting on their high horse and insulting anyone that strayed from 1970's definition.
 
but about the fact that the page has been fucked up again (so that so framework could claim it is "MVC") - completely
 
@ssube but I would still argue that "models" is not one of these
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier you'll find a tremendous number of books and libraries that disagree
 
@Luggage my high horse shows up at around 4:22
bastard never invites me :(
 
@ssube like PoEAA ?
 
2:27 PM
I don't use it, I don't especially like it for the light models that I prefer, but model is pretty widely used
 
@ssube not sure why this makes it any better. there are a tremendous amount of books and libraries that suggest that jquery is indeed the best shit out there
 
Aren't you the high horse?
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier there's nothing wrong with model, though
 
no, just some guy that looks like me and is always watching me from my mirrors
he's creepy
 
it's just another term for essentially the same thing
 
2:28 PM
\o/
 
I'll happily stray from the holy 7-layer burrito when I can still make an organized comprehendible system.
 
I like burritos. except when I shit their spicy stuff
 
@tereško ... did a diff on that wiki page between last edit and 1st of february
 
In other words, it's more important that the term "model" is used consistently in your own code base and has separation of concerns than that it agrees with what the Gang of Four say about it.
 
tbf, that wiki page isn't right
 
2:29 PM
@KarelG you didn't donate $5, so now they're getting even
 
since my "models" usually only deal with marshalling, I call them codecs a fair amount of the time
 
you lost me on that one.
 
user2620028
@shrek yeah moving down to a suitable ping makes you go like supersaiyan after you have been playing it on 300ms ping
 
encode/decode
from... the database
 
2:30 PM
incredible
that is some very meta shit
 
I haven't come up with anything better that isn't model :p
 
@KarelG https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Model–view–controller&diff=prev&oldi‌​d=760463168
 
ha, I almost forgot today was meetings day i.imgur.com/Q8GoNbg.jpg
 
lol. dat guilty face at the end
 
s/guilty/<censored>/
 
2:32 PM
@Luggage you're projecting again
 
How can you tell? I'm sitting down.
 
omg the images in my head
 
aubrey plaza is incredibly attractive in a "if you leave me I'll burn your house down" kinda way
 
which I'm ok with
I have fire insurance
 
lol
 
2:34 PM
makes for pretty interesting ugh... "romantic times"
 
makes me think of the end of Fight Club
 
fuck that MVC wiki is utterly wrong
but aint go edit that.
 
MVC is more often misunderstood than understood...
 
that's why so many people bought into MVVM and the other MV*s
 
well, for a start, we are trying to apply it to a basically stateless paradigm (web pages)
(ignoring spas, ofc)
 
2:36 PM
MVVM ?
 
And people get so nit-picky about the details when you just want clear separation between you data (M), The way you present it (V) and the actions to take on it (C).
 
Model-View-ViewModel. Good luck figuring out which part is which.
 
@Luggage well, there are many ways to get it horrendously wrong, in a way that prevents any kind of sane thinking about a codebase
 
had that thought aswell :P
 
yep, the real value is just keeping clean seperation between the layers so you can replace your database later
 
2:37 PM
MVVM: Model is your data (in this case), View is like the html, ViewModel is the code behidn the view but for only view reasons (e.g. 2-way data bindings, your UI state, dirty flag)
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier Backbone, Spring, Angular, Grails, Rails, ...
 
whereas it can also make for very nice SOC based code
 
I go with an MSVC sort of thing: model (marshalled data), services (business logic), view (presentation), controller (router)
calls go left/down the chain, never up
 
up in r11, we tend to group services inside the model
that being said, having worked essentially with js (react, ng2, webpack stack) in the last year, I realize it's not exactly possible to think about mvc in the same way than with php
 
the S/C split isn't necessary, but a) I like light controllers, b) often use the logic without a controller, and c) you can share logic and change routers between server/client
@FélixGagnon-Grenier React is just a library for you to define your views. Same way MobX is just a library to define your controller.
 
2:41 PM
I know. I should have said something like js stack
 
I just put my controller in the render() method in react. Saves files.
I don't want to wear out my SSD.
 
you'll never be able to get another one if you do
 
all else aside, I fucking love react
 
we all do
React in 2017 is jQuery in 2008
much love
 
can't wait for 2026
 
2:44 PM
jReacty
 
I'm just hoping React stays single-purpose and doesn't become jQuery
 
it'll be so hot
@ssube well, jQuery was one mans baby for a long time. he wanted a kitchen sink
React seems a lot more managed
 
yeah, it seems a lot more intentional and planned
 
> planned
> about something javascript related
good one guys
 
2:45 PM
ohh right, we're still living in 2001
JavaScript still is a clusterfuck
I forgot 😃 my bad
 
well there goes all my build tools
 
"build" javascript?! hahahah
 
we'll just run the java version of closure
it take ~45 minutes to go through your files
 
Flash all the things
everyone knows Flash is the future
 
you don't mean the Flash I think you do, right?
 
2:48 PM
It's 2001 and my VBscript libraries are relevant again!
 
speaking of which, is AS still in development? have then upgraded anything with ES spec?
 
It's 2001. Yes, he does.
 
oh rite ;)
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier I make awesome banners in Swish
you want for your guild site?
$3 a banner
 
@Vap0r you know you can use JScript with Windows Script Host, right?
 
2:49 PM
I wish I had other breakfast food besides coffee
 
and I think there are some babel transforms to target jscript.
 
@rlemon banners? woa, that's so neat, sure I want twelve of those!!!
 
@Luggage did not know that....
 
I charge more for the .fla file
 
@ssube oh. good point. that's why I am presently shaking.
 
2:50 PM
@Luggage the big problem with jscript is that it's es3, right?
 
2001 - Gladiator
 
@Oskar Welcome to the JavaScript chat! Please review the room rules. Pleasedon't ask if you can ask or if anyone's around; just ask your question, and if anyone's free and interested they'll help.
 
@Oskar What?
 
@ssube babel-ized to es3 is better than vbscript (in my book)
 
Are we in the first half or the second half of 2001?
 
2:50 PM
2001 - Gladiator, the movie :) just came out
 
Because the last bit of 2001 is gonna be a doozy
 
I can't wait for this weekend so I can write some ActionScript and watch that new Movie Monsters Inc.
 
back when Russell Crowe was still fightin round the world
 
@Vap0r Pre 9/11
First half.
 
you know what else comes out this year? Shrek
Shrek is love
my god, shrek came out 16 years ago.
I feel old.
 
2:51 PM
shrek is legal in some states
:|
 
Phew.
 
@rlemon shit....
 
😳
 
@BenFortune TUGGA! NO!
 
2:52 PM
Microsoft just released word that they're adding .NET framework support into Jscript. That's when I'm planning on jumping ship from VBscript
 
feels good having only that dumbass Bush. he ain't doing so bad, actually
 
JScript.NET has been out for years
 
@Vap0r why are you using either one?
 
ohh are you still in 2001?
 
Aren't we all?
 
2:53 PM
It's 2001, I don't even own a computer
I'll have been 9
 
I don't know anymore
 
man, 2001 was a great year for movies. Monsters Inc, Shrek, A Beautiful Mind, Harry Potter 1, Training Day, Black Hawk Down, Vanilla Sky, Oceans Eleven, Donnie Darko, LOTR, Swordfish.. the list just keep going
jesus what a great year for movies
 
shit, I thought LOTR was much later
 
I'm 8
 
@rlemon yeah, you're right, not like this crap which comes out every year
 
2:54 PM
the last few years have been like 1-2 good movies a year
 
Make movies great again
 
2001 was like 20-30 good movies
 
we ran out
 
year after year, software is getting better and movies getting shitter
 
one day software will replace movies
 
2:55 PM
we need to get to the point when software will start creating movies for us :P
 
To be fair, the 1-2 good movies have massive budgets and decent special effects
 
hopefully the software starts writing movies.
 
I blame fast cut scenes and over use of CGI
 
Anonymous
2001? My born year
 
'cool explosions' are not all movies are meant to be
@Matheus jesus, NOW I feel old.
 
2:55 PM
movies can have words too
or no words and no explosions
 
@ndugger this positive viewpoint is uncharacteristic of you.
2
 
user2620028
i dunno... i watched titanic 2 years ago, i don't think it can get much shittier than that
 
@Luggage I had some... thin mints this morning. I probably shouldn't be at work
 
Titanic 2? When it comes back up and goes on a rampage?
 
titanic 2? don't know it
 
2:56 PM
ahh, yes.
 
Anonymous
Oh lol... hum
 
@ndugger did you eat a sandwich for breakfast?
 
I have worried that maybe I had too many thin mints before work before..
 
I ate a slice of cold pizza
 
@ndugger there's a balmer's peak
 
user2620028
2:56 PM
@Oskar you know... the one where they take a huge boat and christen it the titanic and run into an iceberg and sink the ship
 
!!undo
 
lol
 
I don't know what that's from
 
how I met your mother
 
2:57 PM
I don't watch that show
 
but that's from 2004
 
you'll never meet your mother
 
he's telling the story to his kids. so every time they get stoned he replaces "smoke a joint" with "eat a sandwich"
 
ah
 
@rlemon the amount of kid-friendliness they added just ruined that show for me
 
2:58 PM
yes, I ate a sandwich
 
such a good show .. then the last season :(
 
I want TV to resemble life, with boobs and explosions
 
but not boob explosions.
 
@ssube eh, it was easy enough to see through, and then you remember he's telling a story to his teenage kids.
makes sense
if they were just filtering it for the audience.. then yea.
but it fit with the premise of the show imo
 
like teenage kids are gonna sit through hours of story telling about how their parent's met?
 
2:59 PM
but the kids, and the laugh track... it felt like the disney channel
 
if you wanna be mad at HIMYM then be mad about the fact it should have been called "How I Got Permission To Bang Your Aunt Robin"
the last season was atrocious
 
@ssube * recalls Hannah montana or something *
 

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