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@copy Qualification?
 
@KendallFrey that page looks pretty neat on first glance. Is it good for raspi stuff?
 
@GNi33 idk, I would imagine so
 
so you would recommend it in general?
oh, the projects section does look really good, nice. thanks for linking it
 
why is haskell useless? Is there just hardly any binding between haskell and, say, server calls?
 
9:09 PM
adafruit and sunfounder communities are excellent places to go @GNi33
 
not practical to use by a large amount of people whose training is trying to be minimized to avoid additional costs in the company?
 
@rlemon thanks a bunch, I'll check them out
niiiiice, Neverwinter Nights Diamond Edition is free on GoG
4
 
@towc most programmers are entry level. Many are self-taught and only know (and think in) imperative languages.
 
@GNi33 holy shit really?
 
yep
 
9:11 PM
@towc It's not useless, it's just the fact that useful programs have to have side effects, and usually have a lot of them. Side effects in pure functional languages require special data structures to represent, as opposed to just doing something
 
so haskell could be useful if more people used it?
 
how's the breakdown of OOP vs functional? seems to me more people are drawn to oop
 
that is freaking amazing!
 
that's one of the best and most modable RPGs ever
 
Also, companies already have a pile of old code in c#, java, etc.
 
9:12 PM
absolutely, I played it some years ago, it's so good
 
@towc because it's a research project, it's a toy
 
@ssube php is more of a toy than haskell imo :P
 
languages like C# and F# start as research projects and then get polished for real use, with real features and useful things
 
@rlemon OOP and imperative are natural ways of thinking as a human. FP is a natural way of thinking as a programmer.
 
languages like Haskell never get the real life treatment
 
9:12 PM
but knowing a functional languages is beneficial. You can apply those techniques. also functional programming has made a bit of a comeback in some fields.
 
purely functional languages seem like I'm fighting against instinct as a programmer
 
@rlemon at first.
 
@rlemon because for you programming means imperative...
 
Let me put it this way, one sec
 
purely functional languages go out of their way to complicate things for "purity"
@towc nah, it's how FP langs are designed. It's intentional.
They're the "my way or the highway" languages because they're academic, they show the purity of the functional concept.
 
9:14 PM
@rlemon I nearly dropped my freaking Alien kit into the grand canyon last weekend :D
 
Quick question, my articles on my website (HTML/CSS) are not separating themselves from the background-color (I want a space in between the articles). The images seem to be separating, but the article content themselves won't separate and leave a space, even if I use margin-top. What do you guys suggest I use in this case?

Here's the working demo: https://jsfiddle.net/fro332hq/3/
 
sure, I can't apply some tricks, as a programmer, to do some nice fancy graphics tricks, maybe, but that's, in my inexperienced view, still a great tradeoff, given compiler enhancements and other things
 
@GNi33 Alien kit?
 
Haskell is the Communist Manifesto, it was never meant to work when real problems and people were involved.
 
@rlemon Smok Alien
 
9:14 PM
ahh
 
@towc that's actually pretty much the opposite.
 
yea that would have sucked
 
the vape thingy ;)
 
The graphics tricks and stuff are no more difficult, it's really basic stuff that suffers.
 
yep, it got a little scratched up on one side but otherwise it's fine. I had a proper "OH FUCK" moment though
 
9:15 PM
I mean, I can imagine using haskell instead of javascript to oversee a MVC system
 
@rlemon As an imperative programmer, I see a problem, and think "That's pretty simple, I just need X, Y, and Z. I'll write them." As a functional programmer I think "That's pretty simple, I just need X, Y, and Z. X and Y are built in, and Z is just a combination of Foo and Bar."
 
@ssube I thought that the compiler would really benefit from this...
but then it compiles down to assembly, which is imperative...
 
@GNi33 mines beat to hell
 
but the compiler, in this case, can perform all sort of mathemagic, that it can't do on imperative languages
 
@towc look what compilers can do to JS and C++.
FP has very very few benefits for the compiler.
 
9:16 PM
Why can't a compiler optimize imperative languages?
 
You're just trading memory for thread-safety, that's the only thing FP actually buys you.
 
You tend to solve problems by splitting them into smaller subproblems. In FP, that's where it stops. In imperative, there is also a final step of some actions to take to solve the simplest subproblems
 
@Luggage it can, but just not as efficiently as strictly pure ones I think
 
@Luggage "because, idk. I should go read about it"
 
@tow you are proving my early comment correct. Learn Haskell. It'll make you a better programmer, but nothing is a silver bullet.
 
9:17 PM
@KendallFrey if FP doesn't have the final step, the function, what are you passing into a map or reduce? That's the most-used argument for why FP is "better" but it's pretty weak.
 
@GNi33 alien smok you say?
only $350, ebay.com/itm/…
 
@towc you can write pure functions in any language.
 
that is just the shitty paint they use
 
@Loktar that one exactly :D
 
9:18 PM
The JS compiler will optimize the hell out of them.
 
none of those are drops. all just handling wear
 
lol
 
btw, that mod is <3 months old.
 
@ssube FP basically describes what a program does, whereas imperative describes what a program does and how it does it.
 
sorry, it's 4 months old.
 
9:18 PM
yeah, they get beat up pretty fast
 
@KendallFrey that's bullshit
 
@ssube but the compiler will is not likely to be optimized to optimize that. Once everything is a mathematical relation, compilers can do A LOT
 
Please don't spam
 
@rlemon > that mod is heart months old
FTFY
 
@towc all the compilers we have now optimize that sort of thing
 
9:19 PM
@ssube Care to elaborate?
 
gcc does it, msvc and icc have always done it, clang does, v8 does
@KendallFrey You have to provide the how in both places. map and reduce are more how than what.
 
You're missing the point
 
@ssube they can't because they still need to treat the, in the case of JS, object functions as objects that can later be used as such by other components, external possibly. In the case of haskell, the compiler has a guarantee of all that can happen
 
@rlemon can you help me then?
 
@KendallFrey Looking at it that way, you could claim FP is just an extension to the stdlib and with the Array methods, JS is functional.
 
9:20 PM
no, because you still have not learned how to properly ask your question.
 
That's obviously not the case. What makes FP langs really different is much more fundamental.
 
we don't know what your articles are, we don't know what spacing you are talking about
 
@ssube There is certainly a functional subset of the JS language
 
for example, the case of a nested loop that just increments a variable at each iteration of the inside loop, but not as straight forwardly as one may imagine. In an FP, the relation is made clear by design, and the compiler can bring the logic down to multiplying the number of iterations in each loop
 
9:22 PM
@KendallFrey and every one of those methods is a "how"
@towc compilers do that anyway
 
Well sure, everything in FP is compiled down to a "how"
 
you won't find one (outside of perl/php) that doesn't anymore
 
But it's not expressed in the language itself
 
@KendallFrey FP is all "how" and very little "what"
 
or if it's a triangular relation, in haskell it's very easy for a compiler to spot it, probably, whilst most of the time it's not worth it for v8 to spend time looking for that relation and optimize it with the formula
 
9:23 PM
@ssube No
 
@towc v8 optimizes the ever living fuck out of math
 
@rlemon My <article>'s are not separating themselves from the background-color (I want a space in between the articles). The images seem to be separating, but the articles themselves won't separate and leave a space, even if I use margin-top, or top. What do you suggest I adjust in the CSS for this case?

Here's the working demo: jsfiddle.net/fro332hq/3
 
@towc you've clearly never seen what v8 and friends actually store and run, check the asm output for those cases
 
@towc You are talking out your ass. I've heard all these arguments about a c compiler, too.
 
!!> var k = 0; for( var i = 0; i < 100; ++i ){ for( var j = 0; j < i; ++j ){ ++k } }; k
 
9:23 PM
@towc 4950
 
those arguments were true in the 80s and 90s, before optimizing compilers were a common thing
 
@sarangheh510 you don't have a single article tag on your page.
 
^ I don't think v8 compiles it down to (100^2 + 100)/2
 
it will
 
while haskell very easily can
oh
 
9:24 PM
V8 will, GCC will
that is the most trivial case
 
Ebay has some awesome stuff sometimes lol
 
@ssube well, if you are going to implement your own data structure, it's not going to be that straight forward
 
@towc for this sort of thing, most compilers will flip your loops
 
but I guess at this point I know nothing about compilers
 
@towc read the article on how V8 handles morphism
 
9:25 PM
@Loktar are you just looking for fucked up statues now?
😛
 
@rlemon I have two article tags!
 
@rlemon haha no just on the same page as the other crazy one
but I'm sure you can find some badass/crazy ones if you actually look
 
@ssube I was linked to it once before. Sure, interesting, but it's still not as efficient as a relation-first by design langauge
language*
 
lol
and CISC isn't as efficient as RISC
 
9:27 PM
Well, @towc settled that argument. After lying about knowing Haskell he now knows it's better than everything else.
 
@sarangheh510 not in the code you've linked in here. PLEASE learn how to make a MCVE
 
ha, I had forgotten he learned haskell this morning
 
proof is in the pudding
there is no <article> tag in your code
 
sorry all. I'm wrong. I don't know why exactly yet, but I'll figure it out
I'll get to reading that book as soon as it's high enough on my priority list. Thanks for the help
 
@towc if you dismiss articles that lay out the very most specific parts of it as vaguely interesting, you will not
 
9:28 PM
Wow Queen
 
@fuccboi Welcome to the JavaScript chat! Please review the room rules. Please don't ask if you can ask or if anyone's around; just ask your question, and if anyone's free and interested they'll help.
 
11 mins ago, by rlemon
@Luggage "because, idk. I should go read about it"
 
Nov 23 at 14:33, by rlemon
ffs stop posting pictures of code.
 
@rlemon You're looking at the wrong one.

Here's the working demo: jsfiddle.net/fro332hq/3
 
@Luggage it was a posting of the failed grep
not the code
 
9:29 PM
:)
 
@AwalGarg eeeww, but that's pretty cute. Maybe I'll use that as a "weird but useful" example
 
@sarangheh510 when you return, please stop spamming the same code and links. There is no article tags in your fiddle. stop arguing, make a simplified demo of your issues
 
@ssube I just think that having clear and easily spottable mathematical relationships is much better than other imperative cases that the article describes. But that seems to be wrong
 
@rlemon Finally somebody speaks up
 
@towc nothing is imperative or mathematical or anything at that level. Those concepts cease to apply.
 
9:30 PM
@towc you can do static analysis in many languages. There even had a term for it.
 
also, nothing in that article is imperative
it's talking about how v8 allocates classes, ffs
did you read any of it?
 
@ssube I thought that was the thing that haskell excelled at
@ssube it uses data structures and talks about changing them. That's not done in haskell
 
@towc it is so.
 
by design
 
What do you think haskell uses underneath?
 
9:31 PM
some earlier JS engines were shitty. spidermonkey and v8 were some of the earlier engines to start applying real optimization.
 
memory is pre-allocated and mutable, haskell can pretend to do not that, but it's lying
 
@ssube but it's not forced to and can avoid it much better than most other compilers. By design
as in, in the end it has to
 
@towc sauce?
 
@rlemon Look, I'm not trying to be rude @rlemon. I just wanted some help, and I gave you the proper link, I don't know why you have a link from hours ago. Again, (I'm sorry if the link before did not work for you), here is the proper link: jsfiddle.net/fro332hq/3
 
@towc a pure function can be optimized equally well by most major VMs at this point
 
9:32 PM
but can clear the way to the most efficient path much more easily I guess
 
haskell just requires that everything be pure
 
@ssube but relationships between functions?
 
if you were to write JS where everything was a pure function, it would be stupid fast
 
@sarangheh510 that link is the one I have. You didn't save it or are looking at a different page.
 
@AwalGarg The default arguments spec is soooo confusing. I went through some of it the other day and got lost fast. The new specs in general are harder to read than ES5's spec. Did you get an answer?
 
9:33 PM
@towc v8 can figure it out, very simply. Dumbest case, you recursively inline.
 
Learn to use fiddle properly too, you're using tags that are inherited via jsfiddle environment
 
ffs, one of JS' optimization criteria is the character number of certain blocks of code. That's because it doesn't have time to optimize to the detail the imperative parts of those
 
sure it doesn't, that's why the output asm looks exactly like whatever you put in
 
While I am on ssube's side, JS might not be the MOST optimal example.
 
it definitely never inlines anything, either
@Luggage JS is a terrible example, but that kind of makes the point that much better: if V8 can optimize JS well, we can do pretty much anything.
 
9:35 PM
@ssube well, take my primality case for before. A clever enough haskell compiler could easily have figured out that I was writing out the definition of a prime number, and used more efficient low-level methods of finding my primes. That's just not feasable in JS
 
@rlemon My apologies @rlemon, noted. Here is the correct version: jsfiddle.net/fro332hq/4
 
I'm not even opening that, did you bother to look at what a MCVE is? @sarangheh510
 
ok, sure, let's talk C
 
@towc that's not quite how optimizations work there bud
 
9:35 PM
@rlemon, I'm sorry, I didn't realize it didn't update.
 
@towc ok, take everything ssube said and replace JS with C.
 
@ssube but they can in haskell
 
no one wants your entire document. make a minimal example that outlines the problem you face.
 
@towc no, they can only replace known constructs
 
What would convince you?
 
9:36 PM
which is done in every language
 
as in, they're going to be much easier to achieve than in other languages
 
it may be slightly easier to find those constructs because the language is much more restrictive, but that's it
 
@rlemon I understand that, I'll do that next time.
 
any advantages you see are a result of having a language that can't do much
 
I guess the major difference between your view and mine is the "slightly"
 
9:37 PM
Right.. one language might make a certain optimization easy because of the cost of determining if that optimization can be made.
 
but then again, I've done no static analysis
 
@rlemon Could you just help me with this one @rlemon and I'll make sure I'll do the MCVE next time! :)
 
@towc no, you have some other ideas that aren't real
 
@sarangheh510 no
 
@sarangheh510 that's not how it works.
 
9:37 PM
haskell isn't magic, you're just writing better code now, so it works better
it prevents you from doing some of the stupid stuff that breaks in non-obvious places
 
rewarding bad behaviour won't make you "do it next time" it will strengthen your resolve that you can get the answers without following the rules.
 
@ssube ok, fair point
 
@sarangheh510 not only have people pointed out problems, you've spent way more time begging for help that it would have taken to just make a minimal example.
Which may lead you to figure it out, anyway.
 
I'm less patient because you ignored the rules this morning as well.
 
function addOne(x) {
  return x + 1;
}

function half(x) {
  return x / 2;
}

[1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8].map(addOne).map(half);
@towc how can haskell optimize that more than v8 can?
 
9:39 PM
@ssube because haskell
 
v8 needs to make all sort of other rules for the functions, the array, and so on
 
Anything any programming language can do, haskell can do better. I've been told.
 
what rules?
 
No it doesn't
 
sure, they're mostly prototypes so they don't take any time
 
9:40 PM
I hate haskell truthers. :)
 
but yeah, haskell can't do much better than v8 in that case
 
A compiler can make any conceivable optimization, regardless of which language it's using.
 
haskell can't do any better in that example because the code is already good
 
@towc </thread>
 
The only difference is the cost of determining which optimization can be made.
 
9:41 PM
it's already the simplest clearest case
if you write good code, the language does not matter
 
php?
 
@ssube no vb.net is "good code "
 
@ssube cough REBEL
 
^ :)
 
@rlemon I've adjusted it, if you could take a look at it now? I've just included the problem, not the entire thing
 
9:42 PM
plenty of languages prevent you from writing good code
anything that starts with a P
 
"good" is relative
 
@sarangheh510 link. but be warned, if it isn't a minimal example I'll just kick you out of principal
 
@ssube You leave Prolog alone!
 
tfw you realize no shave November is over. scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/…
 
Beard game weak
 
9:43 PM
@lix :loads gimp:
 
@Zirak but I asked it if I should and it said probably not with a 60% chance
 
lol, this guy doesn't even know
 
@rlemon yet again I haven't thought about my actions
 
jk, I'm still not entirely sure how prolog works
 
Python isn't that bad though?
 
9:44 PM
@SterlingArcher come at me brO
 
@rlemon He's gonna have a new wallpaper
 
@rlemon I've literally just added the section that I'm having issues with just for you!
 
@sarangheh510 we need the link. we aaren't going to start guessing which number to put on the url
 
dayum son
 
9:44 PM
@lix He's right, your beard is sloppy and unkempt
 
@SterlingArcher now rlemon knows what the subject of the gimp composition is. Good job
 
A proper beard, no matter the length or size, can be magnificent if handled correctly
 
Yeah i'm working from my bed big whoop wanna fight about it
 
@Zirak True, I haven't done shit to it while I'm waiting for it to get to a good length :-)
 
9:45 PM
you gotta trim it while it grows out
 
it won't sit right if you don't
 
Mine's due for a trim
 
I just let google G-suite modify my MX records... sheesh what a load of entries!??
 
I've taken up an every 2 weeks schedule with a 15mm guard
 
9:46 PM
aspmx2.googlemail.com etc
 
Are you growing it or maintaining it @ssube
 
@sarangheh510 is this still a background color issue? summarize the problem for me, please?
 
alt2.aspmx.l.google.com (Priority: 5)
why they need so many entries?
 
can you sell your beard?
 
@SterlingArcher I've gone back and forth, but I think I prefer the neat close cut beard, especially now that it's gotten a little bit thicker.
 
9:46 PM
@SuperUberDuper who cares?
 
plus, it has a nasty habit of making a giant curl under my chin if I grow it out
like a raptor claw coming out of my tongue-bottom-place
 
like, apply some kind of polymer gel at the base so it sticks toghether, and then it can be used as a prop beard?
 
> Mosho show them a second zoomed view for where the fuck they want to actually tap ?
 
it's a bad enough monster curl that I had a dream about cutting it off the other night
 
9:47 PM
Shockingly my beard doesn't curl
I'm on a journey to recreate a picture
This one to be exact
 
Wow, He really needed to take that piss
 
@SuperUberDuper I didn't mean to dismiss you, but ask "why care about those details? That's the point of google apps, to have a bunch of shit that "just works".
 
why is my eclipse being so bad
and laggy
 
yeah true, I have a server but was lazy to asked google to do it, mind you at the end of the trial I will probably switch to stop the 3$ a month charge for my email
 
@SterlingArcher best recent selfie I have
 
9:50 PM
@Luggage Thanks @luggage, I am just trying to create a space between the two #articlepreview 's, and I've tried using margin-top and top, but it's not creating space. When I use top, it creates a space above the intitial article, but nothing in between the actual articles. It's connecting the background color (white).
 
Clean your smart mirror squidboy
 
no!
 
user image
2
 
 
9:51 PM
that mirror came out dope, tho
 
it really did. how long did it take to build
 
an hour?
 
from scratch?
 
@rlemon I got a chuckle out of that even if you did get out played by a picture of a mirror
 
no, from wood and a mirror
 
9:52 PM
@lix ssube can never out play me
I got the lemon game
 
$60 worth of stuff, roughly. You need one 12" shadow box ($30), one 12" piece of two-sided-mirror acrylic ($10), a USB cable, tablet of some sort (I used a $30 fire hd from woot).
oh, and some black construction paper
@SterlingArcher there was a concept online but it used a real mirror and was way more complex
 
I should check that out, I have a big ass mirror that I hate
 
that sits by the front door right next to the kitchen, so you can check yourself before you run outside
 
I'm still probably going to just make mine out of a touch screen
 
@sarangheh510 your #articlepreview is set to 400px, and so it the parent, so, with the margin, it's actually BIGGER and sticking out the bottom.
 
9:53 PM
touch screen + small camera === mirror
 
@rlemon do it, one up me like I did that other person
 
If I owned this apartment I'd replace my bathroom mirror with a smart mirror
 
until we have self driving wifi mirrors
 
we're redoing our bathroom
I need to replace the mirror..
nice idea @SterlingArcher
dunno if the wife will like a web-connected camera in the bathroom tho
 
Don't tell her
 
9:54 PM
bigdirtyrob.ca *
 
bigdirtyrob.farming
 
@ndugger .farm
farming isn't a TLD afaik
 
@rlemon build a dick level mirror that auto snaps a picture from motion sensors
 
@Luggage Thanks I'll try that! :)
 
9:55 PM
my bad. I never know what these fancy new TLDs actually are
 
dickaday.com
 
too many to recall
dankduggermemes.org
 
@SterlingArcher if I owned that domain I'd just post pictures of people I didn't like
 
@SterlingArcher use the piezoelectric current from the toilet water to take a selfie when something touches it
 
jesus christ sean
 
9:57 PM
guys, whats the best free email forwarding service, providing you have your own domain? freeola.com/free-email seems legit?
 
!!undo
 
!!tell ssube urban hun
 
@ssube hun short for honey, an endearing term
 
that reminds me, I need to go home and play BF1
 
@sarangheh510 i mean 'padding', not margin, for #articlepreview. By default, the height/width do NOt include the padding, so yours is really 440px high, not 400. (400 + 20px top, 20px buttom)
 
9:58 PM
!!undo
 
@SuperUberDuper You do not have permission to use the command undo
 
@SuperUberDuper suckeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrr
 
@sarangheh510 easy answer: subtract out the top/bottom padding.
 
we've all been tricked by Cap at one point
 
9:59 PM
Or, use box-sizing
 
!!afk 🏠 ⌚️
 
@ssube Do you have any idea what piezoelectric means?
 
i do
done some stuff with it at uni
 
@KendallFrey yes, a very slight one.
 
9:59 PM
mobile safari has touchstart, right?
 
I know electricity about as well as most people know Haskell.
 
with e.touches?
 

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