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6:00 PM
lol
 
How is Node for hipsters?
 
When I was strictly PHP, i thought Node was for hipsters
 
The Node community is pretty big; the php community is pretty... well, It's php. Not much I can say about it without offending someone...
 
@NickDugger It's "new"
 
We all look down on somebody
 
6:01 PM
well, newer than Rails
 
PHP devs look down on ASP and ColdFusion users
 
So by that logic, he's right (I thought you guys might get a larf)
 
"Hipster" is such an overused word.
 
@taco I'll put it this way; I'll never use PHP if I can use Node. I'd also never use ASP or ColdFusion, because they're terrible.
 
IIS used to be pretty bad as well. It's better now I guess, but I still hate it
Only think I like about IIS is how it handles SSL certificates, so simple. Apple OS X does it just as well, though
I'm starting to forget PHP, since we've moved away from it. I should probably refresh my memory soon
 
6:10 PM
Or move on to something else
 
@NickDugger have you used the technologies? really? have you given them the time of day to qualify your position of them being terrible? or are you just jumping on the terrible band-wagon?
 
I have every right to jump on any bandwagon I please, but I have used php, and have seen ASP code. Don't be so jumpy just because I don't like something. It's not like I murdered someone.
 
You can, but don't say that they're terrible
 
He's jumpy because you state opinions based on FUD, preconceived ideas and misunderstandings.
I'd know.
 
@NickDugger I'm not being jumpy, I'm just asking.
trying to set the record straight whether or not youve used the technologies or just have a preconceived notion of them
that is all
 
6:15 PM
I've used php enough to know that I don't like it. It was my first back end language, and my first full-stack personal project was in php
 
I've never used CF, I've seen it and it doesn't look like something I'd enjoy, but I can't say it is terrible. I know nothing about it
 
Now that this murder suspicion is in my head...
 
@rlemon in his defense, "using" doesn't mean understanding. And understanding doesn't imply using.
 
don't be so quick to judge is all I'm saying. a lot of people think JS is terrible, but I would hate for someone to not give it the time of day due to a misconception
 
I work on a 900k line code CF project at my day job (that i'm leaving). I know all about it :(
 
6:17 PM
@rlemon at the same time, most of JS developers I know agree that JS is, in fact, terrible.
 
yea, but we still love it
 
MGE
Hello, I'm using pushState, but I want to control the back button in the browser, these are my code lines. pastebin.com/Y3k5DMUE How can I add back button action?
 
@rlemon oh but of course.
 
FTR the definitive guide is a really good book
I do suggest it
 
6:18 PM
I've read it and didn't like it.
 
it's dull for sure, but it is a good resource imo
 
I can't recommend a better source anyway.
 
@BartekBanachewicz have you tried effectivejs.com ?
 
*some of the examples do stink. but I wouldn't discredit the book based on a few shitty jQuery examples
 
Oh great, we're back to Bartek's anti-JS propaganda.
 
6:19 PM
@SomeKittens errm.
 
@SomeKittens He hasn't said anything wrong thus far
 
user1596138
@BartekBanachewicz This statement is a joke.
 
user1596138
3 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@rlemon at the same time, most of JS developers I know agree that JS is, in fact, terrible.
 
user1596138
For "terrible" is relative.
 
@Jhawins I'm sorry, I should've said competent developers. <SCNR>
 
6:20 PM
wat
 
user1596138
@BartekBanachewicz Ohhhhh
 
user1596138
I didn't realize you were just trolling.
 
user1596138
Or are you trying to be taken seriously?
 
if you wanna talk about language features, JS lacks a bunch. JS is not that great of a language in that regard. JS is a terrific language for MANY other reasons
 
user1596138
I'd call that an insult ;P
 
6:21 PM
JavaScript is indeed not a great language
 
^
 
what's the best way to check if 4 variables: a,b,c,d (their values are either 'A' or 'B') all have the same value in an if statement?
 
@Jhawins there are more things than black and white in this world.
 
user1596138
But most competent developer wouldn't call it terrible.
 
@Charly a===b && b===c
that checks all three
you can expand for four
 
6:22 PM
@Charly [b,c,d].reduce(equalTo(a))
 
I'm curious, is javascript not a good language due to design, or due to it being client-side and restricted by securities?
 
what is .reduce()?
 
@NickDugger design
 
@NickDugger Um, JS isn't restricted to client-side?
 
@BartekBanachewicz function and(p, c){ ... } ??
 
user1596138
Sorry to jump off the deep end, I just thought that statement was a bit too far-fetched.
 
kk tyvm
 
MGE
Someone works with jquery pushState?
 
@PixnBits p && c of course
 
@SomeKittens Well yes, but it's usually used client-side, and so I was curious if the "terrible" nature of it was just a misunderstanding of it's limitations
 
6:23 PM
Reduce can be used any time you have an array or stream of data and need to 'summarize' or aggregate results.
 
@BartekBanachewicz p defaults to 0
 
@Charly I was half-kidding (you need to implement the combinator), but oftentimes putting stuff into an array is a way to go
 
user1596138
I found a video titled "why haskell is bad", everyone hates Haskell ofc.
 
If you don't see how JavaScript isn't great, try something else for a change and see yourself. Ruby, Python or C# should do the job. Also try a functional language like Clojure, Erlang or Haskell
 
sure...
 
6:24 PM
I love JS AND love some other languages (C#).
 
I enjoy C#, just not C# developers, most of the time.
 
And I would like to play with a real functional language. I like F# but never used it in anger.
 
/me says hello
 
@Luggage F# isn't exactly a "real" functional language
 
Javascript can be a "real" functional language
 
6:25 PM
@KristopherIves no.
 
Just most dont use it like that
 
I know. But it can be if you avoid the procedural bits.
 
inb4 "let's define <<real>>"
 
It can be purely functional
 
But I'm not hung of on being 100% purely functional.
 
6:26 PM
Thats my defniition
 
@BartekBanachewicz eyes
 
@copy the double negative you had in there really threw me off
 
If you think JS cannot be purely functional explain why
 
@Luggage which is hard to do considering it's made for .NET interoperability
 
Which is also a strength..
 
6:27 PM
@Luggage of course it is. But it's also why I don't call it a "real" functional language.
 
@MikeNolan Sorry, I'm from Europe
 
@rlemon @rlemon I was a sysadmin for a long time. Coldfusion runs like a fat grandma
hmmm, oops, sorry for the double ding
 
my grams can move it for a big lady
 
@KristopherIves because functions can throw exceptions, for one.
 
Then any functional language that can call into a procedural one isn;t 100%? I don't think I WANT 100% functioanl lanugage.
 
6:28 PM
!!xkcd haskell
 
I just really like functional-style programming for some tasks.
 
@Luggage there's a difference between "calling into a procedural lang" and "being designed to interoperate with .NET and mutable contexts"
 
user1596138
!!xkcd javascript
 
@Jhawins Search didn't yield a comic; got uni.xkcd.com
 
6:29 PM
@Luggage And no one is forcing you to use it for every task
 
ok, ok. I agree, but that doesn't turn me off.
 
user1596138
Fine
 
!!xkcd lisp
 
You don't have to throw exceptions. Just like you don't have to use for loops, and you declare a generic catcher that avoids all of that, so I don't think that's a valid reason for JS not being purely functional if you want it to be
AKA I can wrap it all in a catchAll( ... )
 
6:30 PM
@KristopherIves The point is that it has numerous examples of functionality that break the purity and totality.
Sure, by my definition Haskell isn't a purely functional language either
 
I said you can use JS as a purely functional language, and you can. Your comments seem irrelevant now.
 
@KristopherIves I... uh.
 
user1596138
Chat is fucked sometimes
 
topicsToAvoid.push('functional programming');
 
yeah, you know what, you're right.
I don't think I should really get into that discussion right now.
 
6:31 PM
That's fine feel free to PM me anytime
Its not something I get upset about. If 2+2 = 4 I want to know the answer I cannot change it
 
user1596138
Are "purity and totality" actual aspects of a programming language?
 
or 5 for extremely high values of 2
 
@Jhawins Or a particular program.
 
Depends who you're talking to
 
What he means is actually functional pureness
 
user1596138
6:32 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Interesting.
 
Hes not talking about "purity" in an abstract sense
 
He wants to put all the non-pure languages in a giant walk-in oven.
 
@Jhawins Purity means no side effects, totality means termination in finite number of steps for every input, to save you googling.
 
A program that has no side-effects and is written as entirely a function of input/output can be said to be purely functional basically
 
that's certainly true.
 
6:33 PM
Program eugenics!
 
All programming languages are created equal. Even you Brainfuck
 
hwat?
 
@Luggage Purely functional programming, like Bitcoin, is something where the biggest advocates are the strongest reasons not to get into it.
 
@KristopherIves that's certainly false.
 
They are created equal, wether you use them or not is a separate issue
 
6:34 PM
HQ9+ === JavaScript
 
Don't I know it. I keep telling my friend that the massive deflation of bitcion is NOT a good thing.
 
I think i've slipped into the twilight zone
 
At lesat not for long term viability as a currency.
 
bannedTopics.push('bitcoin'); // dont mess with my bitcoin
 
I should really finish Pierce and start reading HoTT
 
6:34 PM
bitcoin is stupid. dogecoin is the future
 
so value
 
so that I can use even more elaborate bullshit in my discussions about PLs
 
user1596138
@BartekBanachewicz I feel that "purity" in the way you say isn't explicitly good.
 
Anyone read 'To Mock a Mockingbird'?
 
6:35 PM
Once that block subsidy goes down Bitcoin will do much better
 
user1596138
(I did google, to make sure I understand the term)
 
@Jhawins here's a bit noisy, but if you want to talk about that a bit we can jump to haskell room.
 
fun fact: Canada is trying to make its own digital currency to replace physical currency.
 
@JHawins Given some pretty simple algorithms only a few people in the world can write purely functional code that works.
 
Bitcoin is worth ~$6
 
6:36 PM
no clue when they plan on releasing it
 
I will buy all your Bitcoin at $7
 
What are they calling it? Maplecoin? Sorrycoin?
 
Are you willing to trade now?
Fine $8
Not selling?
 
ohh hey
MintChip is/was a digital currency concept that enables digital transactions backed by the Government of Canada and denominated in a variety of currencies. The Royal Canadian Mint announced the MintChip project in 2012 and simultaneously launched the MintChip Challenge contest to encourage development of interesting uses for the MintChip. A MintChip is a secure smart card chip, which may be integrated with a SD card for easier connection to computers and mobile devices. The card contains a private key signed by the mint, which is itself then used to sign transactions. When making a payment, the...
 
Didnt think so...
MintChip is funny
 
6:37 PM
it is out. just not as wide spread as they made it seem like it would be
maybe it is just the 'first stage'
 
which $ are you talking about?
 
You know if someone brings up MintChip they are blatantly trolling Bitcoin
 
yes we can control your trolling.
 
(It's like Bitcoin trolling 101)
 
user1596138
@BartekBanachewicz Eh it's ok.
 
6:38 PM
@KristopherIves Uhh, wat?
 
he's just trying to ruffle some jimmies
 
You're a poor quality troll that ruins discussions.
 
gonna keep it up? because you're not funny
 
Don't get upset when I derail other conversations and ruin them :)
 
user1596138
@rlemon Is the ass end of that statement really all that true? ;P
 
6:39 PM
@rlemon theverge.com/2014/3/25/5546192/… Iceland gave all citizens some cryptocurrency
 
Fight fire with fire right?
 
Don't get upset when I derail and ruin conversations. Riiight.
 
@KristopherIves I don't have any BTC, as it's massively overvalued.
 
@Jhawins it was, looking at the wiki article it looks like they may have abandoned that idea for now
 
@Jhawins I just wanted to answer your doubts properly. If you don't trust my judgement (which wouldn't really surprise me), John Carmack had a nice talk at QuakeCon in which he explained how he realized purity is a really useful thing in game design. Might be of interest to you, but I have to warn you it's a bit long.
 
6:40 PM
+1 for John Carmack's QuakeCon talks
They're pretty much just 3 hours of a really smart guy rambling about programming, in the best sort of way.
 
user1596138
I feel that this "purity" is more of a personal ideology. It doesn't seem to have direct bearing on usability, quality, functionality, or presentability of the language itself, or code in general.
 
What about MintChip is it pure?
 
purity up until you need to talk to the video card?
 
It definitely helps reason about code, for one
 
user1596138
It sounds like a nice way to do things, if you like that way.
 
6:41 PM
/clear
 
Functions that don't have side effects is good. Designing an entire language around that - not so much.
 
And optimization, if you're into that
 
@KristopherIves quick question: are you just here to troll?
 
user1596138
It doesn't sound explicitly "better"
 
@Jhawins And that's why I suggested you watch the talk.
 
user1596138
6:41 PM
But in the same way it is not "worse"
 
@SomeKittens Then you should try a non-Haskell functional language
 
@Jhawins what do you think is "worse" or "better" about it?
 
I will watch his talk. I assume it's on youtube somewhere.
 
!!youtube Quakecon 2013
 
6:42 PM
Also let's get the myth that Haskell doesn't allow any side effects out of the way.
 
Dang. Wrong video.
 
jscoin pls
 
@copy I suppose my dabblings with lisp don't count.
 
Haskell /ˈhæskəl/ is a standardized, general-purpose purely functional programming language, with non-strict semantics and strong static typing. It is named after logician Haskell Curry. == History == Following the release of Miranda by Research Software Ltd, in 1985, interest in lazy functional languages grew: by 1987, more than a dozen non-strict, purely functional programming languages existed. Of these, Miranda was the most widely used, but was proprietary software. At the conference on Functional Programming Languages and Computer Architecture (FPCA '87) in Portland, Oregon, a meeting was...
 
^ Pretty sure it's this one.
 
6:43 PM
because I know that a lot of people think that "Haskell functions can't use state" or "you can't have mutable state in haskell" and so on, which is false
@Retsam yep
 
154
Q: What is the Haskell response to Node.js?

gawiI believe the Erlang community is not envious of Node.js as it does non-blocking I/O natively and has ways to scale deployments easily to more than one processor (something not even built-in in Node.js). More details at http://journal.dedasys.com/2010/04/29/erlang-vs-node-js and http://stackover...

 
How about energy as currency?
 
Does MintChip do that?
 
user1596138
@BartekBanachewicz Eh, I kind of lose interest when something is presented as a factual constant improvement. I'm sure you see "0" downfalls
 
Energy-backed, I mean. Not that you pay by pluggin in abattery.
 
6:44 PM
Last I heard they were working on a way to have MintChip do that
 
MintChip seems like an exchange method. Like a credit card.
The backing for the currency is something else.
Unless I misread.
 
The part of that talk that @BartekBanachewicz is referring to starts around 1:18:00, I think.
 
I admit I didn't read much, though
 
user1596138
How do you return the current date in a purely "pure" language?
 
@Jhawins Just as functional programming isn't necessarily the best way to approach everything, pure functions aren't necessarily a silver bullet. However, people tend to overlook the benefits and if they write any pure code, it's mostly by accident. Understanding how purity works and impacts your design is what it's all about.
@Jhawins you don't. You can't.
 
6:46 PM
@Jhawins And Carmack doesn't present it as a "zero downfalls" sort of thing. He's really not a Haskell evangelist.
 
Carmack is mostly known for writing heavily optimized C and assembly
 
user1596138
Is that really what it's all about? :P.
 
user1596138
I like impurity.
 
Which is why a purely function language isn't useful. But a language that lets you write purely functional PARTS is.
Which.. maybe they all doo..
But some are better suited than others for writing in that style.
 
user1596138
I see nothing wrong with a function having 10 side effects. If I know what those side effects are, who says I can't be leveraging them to my advantage?
 
6:47 PM
@Jhawins it kinda gets into "explicit vs implicit" argument here
 
@Jhawins Transforming data is a simple example where you can have a pure function.
 
user1596138
And then it falls apart into "well I guess they're both totally cool"
 
Haskell in particular separates pure and impure code on type level @Luggage
You can't use impure parts in code that's marked pure
 
ooo hai! Flags just informed me it is @tereško's birthday! Happy birthday @tereško!
8
 
user1596138
But I won't pretend I have any experience in a functional language.
 
6:48 PM
thanks
2
 
@Jhawins One thing to consider is how much you need to maintain it. If you're the only coder and don't need much maintenance? Cool 10 side effects. If it's a project that has multiple contributors (possibly "you, future you, and future future you") then I'd argue against side effects.
 
user1596138
It just sounds like a nasty unnecessary headache.
 
@Jhawins Then maybe getting some could make you understand it better :)
@Jhawins Oh, that's what being a programmer is all about. Cracking your head on new problems and new things. And constantly learning.
 
user1596138
YEah, well, you can keep your haskell.
 
user1596138
I have to focus on bettering myself in the ways that will get me a job ;)
 
6:50 PM
It's a bit sad that you think about it that way (as in me trying to force you into learning Haskell)
 
user1596138
@BartekBanachewicz Nah nah, let's not make assumptions.
 
user1596138
I haven't once thought you were forcing anything on me or anyone else here :P
 
You did, don't lie.
 
user1596138
I just feel like sometimes you present ideas as more concrete fact than they are. So I'm giving you shit.
 
I'm kinda on @Jhawins' side here.
 
6:51 PM
Me too.
 
user1596138
Nothing personal.
 
I'm on the side where the grass is greener
 
The other one.
 
user1596138
@BartekBanachewicz given a more specific example maybe we can have an actual discussion?
 
user1596138
I'm welcoming you to enlighten me :P. Cause I totally didn't give you a chance
 
6:53 PM
Learning a functional language will help you recognize some of the patterns you already use and didn't realize. It's helpful.
But trying to go full functional for the sake of it may not be so helpful if you're forcing it.
 
@Jhawins I'd be glad to have a discussion with you, but you'd need to stop assuming that I'm overhyping (or "overconcretizing) things, and actually be willing to learn (not from me!) about the topics at hand. Say, we can't discuss benefits of purity if you don't understand the concept itself to a proper extent (which, by all means isn't an insult; merely a conclusion based on the fact that you yourself stated you haven't actually researched the topic)
 
@BartekBanachewicz Umm, I feel like you need to stop assuming that everyone who disagrees with you "just doesn't get it".
 
Just came to the conclusion of a ~day long search for a bug that can't be repro'd.
 
10 mins ago, by Jhawins
How do you return the current date in a purely "pure" language?
 
try {
  app();
} catch(e) {
  console.log('found the bug!');
}
@SomeKittens ^ future proof!
 
user1596138
6:56 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Agreed.
 
user1596138
@Retsam He's making a valid assumption based on what I've said so far ;P
 
@rlemon Brilliant! Here's seven Turing awards.
 
@rlemon Better yet:
try {
  app();
} catch(e) {
  app(); //No bugs!
}
 
How do you catch in Haskell?
 
ooh, that's at least 12 Turing awards
 
user1596138
6:59 PM
I wanted to model a 4 stroke engine using JS..
 
@KristopherIves Are we supposed to read that as "how do you handle errors in Haskell?"
 
user1596138
But I decided I should've taken chemistry in HS
 
@Jhawins lel, I tried that once too
 

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