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1:00 PM
what can you use instead though.. I mean it seems like the main choices are php/asp.net/java :?
out of those I prefer php
 
And lastly, nuke the docs from orbit and replace with quality docs and quality design patterns for basic tasks.
@Loktar There's infinite choices, PHP's just the easiest to get set up with.
 
I think there's very finite choices :P.
We are toying with converting our application from asp.net to php
mainly so we can leverage already developed solutions like wordpress.
 
Easiest because it's everywhere, it's well-known, it's got common syntax so it looks like other languages (this might be moot).
 
yeah I agree it is extremely easy to get into and just start writing code.
 
@Loktar node
 
1:02 PM
thats why you tend to find so much garbage
 
All websites are, is code that talks over HTTP.
Your website can be HTML for instance.
 
@Raynos its not approved in the gov :(
 
The standard choices are PHP/.NET/Java and they are all shit
 
@Incognito It's also commonly pre-installed on shared hosting servers.
 
You honestly have * infinite* choices for a website.
 
1:03 PM
The real choices are Ruby/Python/Node/Erlang/Haskell
 
eh idk. I agree with node, but look at all the very popular high traffic sites out there, many of them are using those standard choices.
 
@RyanKinal That's what I meant by it's everywhere. You have a harder time finding servers set up with... zope/plone for instance.
 
@Loktar so?
SO WHAT
Look at most people out there?
99% of everyone in this world is plain mediocre
 
@Incognito Ah. When I read "everywhere" I assumed you meant tutorials, docs, articles, frameworks, and libraries.
 
So you want to be mediocre too?
 
1:05 PM
No I just need to be safe :?
mainly to stay marketable
 
Psh. Favouring such things as job security over purism
It's all about code purism
 
and because Im limited by what we can use in the gov.
 
@Raynos The real choices are perl, python, ruby, node, erlang, haskell, php, C++, C#, asp, assembly, turing, html, C, lisp, closure, vb, and even humans.
 
That's why I'm unemployed
 
youll get a sweet job one day like Ivo did.
 
1:06 PM
@Loktar that's why I'll work for that shiny startup instead of the government
 
Yeah I just dont feel like working 60hr weeks
 
@Incognito ew perl.
So what?
 
gov is at least 8-4
 
@Raynos If I had stuck by my "don't work with Microsoft crap" attitude, I'd probably be living with my parents (or worse, my ex's parents) right now.
 
then I can go home and work on my own stuff.
 
1:07 PM
Just because I'm in a startup does not mean I'll work 60 hours
 
Anything that can do HTTP can do web.
 
I personally plan to found a company within 2 years
 
@Raynos There's a post about that, linkedin didn't work long hours.
 
Yeah but the majority of startups are work/work/work/work
 
@Raynos Same.
 
1:07 PM
Screw a mediocre career, I'll path my own path and do it right
 
yeah Linkedin was the exception
sounded like a great setup
 
Im happy to work long hours btw, if I want to.
Not because I need to
 
I'm planning on working on a pet project of mine this weekend. Maybe I'll actually get something useful done for a change.
 
Yeah if its cool stuff so am I
 
that 48 hour nodeknockout stunt was great
 
1:08 PM
yeah I agree if its fun then it doesnt feel like work.. I just imagine doing what Im doing here for crazy amts of hours :?
and that would suck.
 
I'm currently actively working on vows-is and contract
@Loktar thats why my startup will be node :P
 
Yeah Im really hoping Node continues on the path its going in terms of gaining popularity.
Im sure it will, then you will see lots of companies using it I imagine.
 
@RyanKinal I have a list of about 40 things to get done as my "projects." I don't sleep.
 
@RyanKinal you worked at MS?
 
1:12 PM
@Loktar No... I work with ASP.NET/MSSQL/Visual Studio ... the Microsoft stack of software.
But for the longest time, I refused to even learn it.
 
@Incognito dont know
I need a solid team, an idea is easy
Well dont get me wrong I'm pragmatic
I used the .NET stack in my placement
I hate it :\ It's mindless and annoying
 
Oh, so you're selling vaporware? :P
 
And it's stalling my personal career progression
@Incognito ideas are easy
 
Do you have any target ideas floating around?
 
I need to find a problem I'm personally passionate about
 
1:14 PM
Ideas are easy, the idea that makes you rich is not.
 
I have some concepts
I would like to make participating in open source easier
 
@Raynos You should read over this first... amazon.com/Think-Better-Innovators-Productive-Thinking/dp/…
 
Ooh a self help book adds to list
 
I have a whole bunch of thigns I need
I also need to write a new blogging platform
 
@Raynos, I get scared when people talk like that.
 
1:15 PM
I landed a final year project which is going to be write a new innovate blogging platform (using node of course)
 
@Loktar It's not really self-help, it's more about processes to solve problems.
 
@Incognito what do you mean?
 
Why do you need to write a new blogging platform?
Everyone and their brother writes a new blogging platform, including myself.
 
@Incognito it's my final year university project
 
Oh I thought this was for your business :P.
 
1:17 PM
God no
 
Plus the knowledge gained with a new technology.
 
why would I want to make it a business
 
Hahaha :).
 
it's purely about academics
It's a good excuse to do web things
 
Tom
"Everyone and their brother writes a new blogging platform, including myself." +1
 
1:18 PM
@Loktar Eventually I'll get a list of books I've read together =/.
 
also am a big fan of Napolean Hill's books.
 
Ehh, I don't really read books like that.
I'm more interested in meta-models.
 
ah, yeah I like the books that speak mainly to maintaining and accruing wealth.
besides tech books of course which are #1 on my list generally.
 
For instance, I'd read a book about hypnosis and another about psychology, I try to find what's really going on there.
@Loktar Are the wealth books working?
I've read two books on weath, 1) The richest man in Babylon, 2) The intelligent investor.
 
To some extent yeah, but idk if its the books or just me.
Richest man in babylon was a good one
 
1:24 PM
One's 90 pages, the other's on par with a C++ tutorial book.
 
why hasnt anyone taken Google's voice api and made it work for all web forms?
 
I like how it just takes a common sense approach.
 
eg I want to talk at my stackoverflow window right here, right now
 
@Loktar That's the Socratic method. You need to read "The Goal"
 
lol that would be awesome @hunterp
Cool Ill check it out @Incognito
 
1:25 PM
yes, and it trivial in my opinion
 
"The Goal: A Process of Ongoing Improvement"?
 
I don't think there is a public api, so just keep another window open and copy over the text from it
 
@Loktar Yeah that's the one.
It basically takes you through theory of constraints which @Raynos needs to learn if he's going to run a company some day.
 
cool I will definitely take a look.
 
@Incognito wait, what?
 
1:31 PM
@Loktar It's a long book, but because it reads like a story or fiction you'll finish it in a weekend.
@Raynos Your start-up? You need to have serious knowledge in the domain of business.
 
Oh I know
I have none
I know I'm nowhere right now
I want to focus on my lack of technocal skills first
 
@Raynos Just be careful, money doesn't come from software. Even if it looks like that's the case.
 
Tom
^ Truth
 
@Incognito money comes from a product
a good product
 
what I have found is the simplest stupidest easiest thing makes money :?
and the things that take you forever do not.
 
1:34 PM
@Raynos Can you think of bad products that money comes from?
 
Make something good, market the hell out of it and you have business
@Incognito plenty
 
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I just believe marketing shit is bad
 
Make something bad, market the hell out of it, you're rich.
 
thats immoral in my books
 
1:36 PM
You need to explore the business side before you draw conclusions like this, there's really a whole world out there, it's not just marketers and bullshiters spewing garbage from neck-ties.
 
as the saying goes : money does not stink
 
@Incognito but I'm a software engineer
I refuse to sell bad software
 
Niche markets are the best approach from my experience.
Even if something already exists just make it a niche, and collect $$.
 
@Raynos Nobody ever said you have to.
But I'm saying you need to figure out how business works. Despite all the rhetoric out there saying "just get an idea and make it" there are things you need to know to run a successful business.
Think of the audacity of some business jerk coming in here saying "All I need is an idea and the basic ideas of software, I'll write it, make money"
They write bad software that craps out everywhere.
 
yeah it takes work/luck/marketing imo.
 
1:41 PM
Or probably fall on their face first, because they didn't respect another domain of knowledge.
@Loktar No such thing as luck.
You can have accidents, but it's not because of "luck" factors, it's success can be pin-pointed systematically.
 
well I think it plays a small part. If I didnt make my zombie flash portal when I did I doubt id make what I do today from it.
yeah thats a good point @Incognito
 
It might have been accidental that you stumbled that way, but you could have planned it to be just as or more successful, and you still can.
 
idk I used to think you have to make something awesome to make $$ but when I look at the crap people pay for...
bleh and with that I have to go to mandatory sharepoint training.. oh friggin joy.
 
If you write crap, you shouldn't tell people that don't know their stuff that it's gold. imo, if what you made is decent+ and have time to tell people "Hey look at what I did", you'll be fine.
 
@Incognito oh I'm not suggesting I can start a business in my current state
I'm not fit to be a CEO
either I need to learn business
 
1:46 PM
Sure, but you can spend a few days a month learning that.
That's what I'm doing actually. I have four books on the go right now.
One software, two business, one theoretical physics.
It's also helpful if you can find a way to apply these skills, finding a job where you can play around is hard, but maybe you can find one.
 
I need to focus more on doing things then reading
 
If not, join a group that does work. I've decided to join openhamilton.ca because they really need someone who can do software, and scream at politicians the political way.
 
((Sorry about off-topic, but how would you name a method that runs a function while it returns some value? I'd name it while, but it's a reserved word...))
 
@Zirak What's the code? Your wording confused me :P
Better yet, what actions does it preform, or data it returns?
 
I've done plenty of reading
 
1:49 PM
@Raynos So do.
 
I am trying :p
 
Basically: function toBeNamed(func, returned) { while (func() === returned); }
 
people keep pinging me
 
Tom
@Raynos ping
 
cracks open a thesaurus
 
1:52 PM
@Tom where is my ban button :(
 
Hmm, it can be during or whilst...
 
hi all
 
@Raynos Here, why couldn't you do something like this by the end of the week? It's just bingo cards. You don't even need node.js to do it. Look at the money this guy makes on it. bingocardcreator.com/stats/sales-by-month
 
whilst seems to be more appropriate
 
@Incognito look I know there's plenty of shit out there
 
1:56 PM
No, I'm just saying do something now. You have skills to make something people will buy.
 
I know nothing of marketing, I know nothing of business
I know nothing of what is demand
I know nothing of what to supply
 
So try it. Fall on your face a few times.
 
If I knew where to start I would
 
You can bounce ideas off of me, I'll help you.
 
Ugh I do know where to start
But I have things to do :P
Ugh I guess I just need to hack more right
 
1:58 PM
Alright, would you have time this weekend to put together a plan to make something to sell?
 
It always seemed odd to me that people sell software. It seems to me like selling my urine.
 
@Incognito no
I'm house hunting this weekend
I have no where to live
currently living with my parents
my term starts within the month
 
@Raynos Alright, when you have the time let me know, I'll start something with you.
 
I'm kind of panicing
 
It'll work out fine.
 
2:01 PM
If I secure a house this weekend
 
The couchsurfing might be an option.
 
anyone know how to use ftp/sftp with sublime editor?
 
Huh. It occurs to me that I don't really know how to test my Comet/Long Polling implementation for server load issues.
I wonder how poorly this is going to go :-D
 
2:20 PM
@Greg Why would you want to do that?
@RyanKinal Botnets? :P.
 
@Incognito to work remotely like I do in all other editors.
 
Tom
@RyanKinal tell me when you've figured out a way to properly battle test it
 
@Greg git pull/push.
 
@Incognito ... honestly, not a bad option. Let me just scan my coworkers' computers for vulnerabilities...
 
@Incognito yeah, I'll go and write an FTP wrapper for Git, install it on my work servers and connect to it that way then? (NOT helpful).
 
2:22 PM
Really, though, attempting to roll my own server-side Comet handlers makes me hella nervous.
 
@Greg What?
 
@Incognito Git pull/push isn't the answer to my question.
 
Just don't use editors with built-in FTP.
winscp automatically updates file changes if you set it up the right way, and you can use any editor.
Or you just push the repo over ssh with GIT, and not use ftp.
 
@Greg ftp ._.
Y U LIVE IN STONE AGE
 
@Raynos @Incognito !!!
It isn't my choice for this
 
2:25 PM
@Tom testing is easy, use curl
 
I use Git. Git is amazing. But a project that I'm working on is hosted on SFTP, I would like to use Sublime rather than Notepad++.
 
Tom
@Raynos yeah, because users are like curl
 
@Tom -.- use curl to emulate load
 
Tom
@Raynos you'd have to write some pretty amazing AI to simulate user behavior with curl
 
@Greg cant you just ssh into the server or use version control to update it remotely
 
2:26 PM
@Greg That sounds frighteningly like "It's production"
I'm scared.
 
@Tom oh you want to simulate concurrent users rather then open 10k dummy HTTP connections?
 
Tom
@Raynos yes
And have them stream binary data etc
 
I believe most companies use public betas as their load tests
 
Tom
Indeed
 
@Raynos no, its an old project that's on some sort of terrible shared hosting platform. Its all locked down.
 
2:27 PM
Stay safe greg. Make your own server or something that runs the code, upload the weird differences.
 
@Incognito Me too
 
ololol <trollface> shared hosting </trollface>
 
@Raynos don't. judge. me.
 
@Greg Take this, it's dangerous to go alone: virtual hosting.
 
@Greg seriously though I would not join FTP & and my text editor together
 
2:28 PM
Everyone has to do the deed of fixing some old crap on some old crap system. Just don't judge me for daring to.
 
use two seperate programs
 
ok ok ok
 
Next thing you'll edit the server in your text editor :P
Next thing you know you don't have a local copy anymore and are editing the server directly in notepad!
 
@Raynos Real devs edit live code. </sarcasm>
 
@RyanKinal Real microsoft devs edit live code.
 
2:32 PM
@Raynos lol, yeah
 
I'll just start labeling all software dev practices I dont like as "microsoft sofware development"
 
 
lol, nice
 
@Raynos I'd jump on that band wagon, but there's a group I just joined that's getting MS funding :S.
Interestingly, they're an open source division in ms. Neat?
 
MS are involved with node
You know theres a microsoft advert for a node developer
and microsoft are actively working on node.j
 
2:40 PM
@Raynos Did you apply?
 
@Incognito ...
May I remind you that I'm both mainly incompetent and secondly still mediocre
Why do people say things like "hey you should apply to this job"
 
Because it's usually a good idea
 
Ahahaha, no raynos, you're fine. Apply.
 
No, no. I completely lack the skillset for job X. Thanks for reminding me about that and over valueing me
Secondly I have two years left of my degree
 
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled people make poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to recognize their mistakes. The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their ability as above average, much higher than it actually is, while the highly skilled underrate their own abilities, suffering from illusory inferiority. Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. As Kruger and Dunning ...
 
2:41 PM
@Incognito I know.
But I'm actually mostly incompetent
The only thing I can do is JS
 
Why would you say that?
 
Have you seen my blog progress?
Did you see how slow that was? A competent developer can do that trivially
 
I know people FAR worse than you at programming that make more money than I do, and I bought a $200 pair of shoes last weekend and haven't looked at my bank account in over a month.
 
Thats not the point
I lack the silver tongue
 
@Raynos I wouldn't say "trivially"
 
2:43 PM
@RyanKinal your definition of competent is different from mine
 
Stop coming up with reasons you can't do stuff.
Problem solved.
 
although the correct phrase would be "A competent web developer"
@Incognito I can't drop out of my UK degree to take a senior node.js job in america
 
Nobody expects you to be gandalf the white on day one.
So don't, but apply anyway.
You need the ego boost.
 
@Raynos The point isn't to get the job. The point is to apply for it, and see how far you get.
 
I dont think like that
 
2:44 PM
i gots a job right after graduating somehow
 
@Incognito I've gotten enough ego boosting lately :P
 
@Raynos Seriously, knowing what they're looking for will help direct your learning and professional development.
 
Meh, I still dont feel comfortable wasting their time
 
@Neal I didn't graduate. Then again, I was told > wasn't a valid in sizzle.js, which raises further questions as to why a final year course was teaching sizzle.js.
@Raynos Wast their time.
 
@Incognito I didnt go to a shit university o/
 
2:46 PM
@Incognito lol i got a job in something never really learned in school that much
 
@Raynos I did.
 
@Incognito sorry :(
 
Don't be. Realizing there's more to a career than school was great.
 
- 7+ years of strong software development and engineering expertise
- Experience with real-time web services
- Solid Knowledge in C++/C#
- Passionate about the mobile space.
- Experience integrating SQL and NoSQL databases (such as SQL Azure, MongoDB, CouchDB, etc)
- Rich experience with HTML/CSS/JavaScript, and web services.
- Solid background in server side development, including and/or equivalent experience with Node.js and other emerging technologies.
- A solid computer science background (B.S. or equivalent degree)
 
Damn. Those are some hardcore qualifications
 
2:48 PM
I can't wing that
 
whoa
@Raynos did u look on Dice?
 
@Neal dice?
 
@Raynos You don't need to. Job postings are HR's layer of BS.
 
@Raynos dice.com
 
... Fine. I'll apply
 
2:49 PM
@Incognito i got my job bc they found me on monster.com
 
@Raynos o/
 
¬_¬
 
@Neal Problem solving is the best skill you can have.
 
@Incognito ?
 
Oh, I mean it's more important to know how to solve problems than write C++ or something.
 
2:52 PM
@Incognito w00t to that
 
Ugh the title in "principal"
> First in order of importance; main.
Lead node.js developer for a microsoft team. No, wasting their time.
 
@Incognito lol true
 
@Raynos Waste their time.
 
Why
 
Because it will help you in many ways.
First of all, you're going to be on their back list for when you CAN take the job. You'll get the ego boost you need. You'll get the experience you need.
Just politely decline if you are actually accepted.
You feel like the droves of idiot that don't even know what node is aren't wasting their time?
 
2:58 PM
can I get some help in the web room? No one seems to be able to help me vertically center a span inside a div
 
You'd be above the average water mark of people who are actually wasting their time.
 
@Incognito no
I'm claiming I am wasting microsofts time
 
@JeffHodge google.com/…
 
Any jQuery fans here?
 
@KalleHVäravas possibly...
 
2:59 PM
But now you put it that way
 

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