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9:00 PM
@Christian So you are whining about features which aren't standards yet?
 
@MikeB much more boring now that you aren't getting my old notices eh?
 
@InfiniteSquirrel you dont need to have a framework for using MVC design pattern
 
I'd give up file api, webgl and all that bullshit just to get a stable set of features I know that always work.
@PeeHaa websockets are not standard?
Wait, wait. Let's say they are not standard, ok?
 
@tereško x2, MVC is jsut that.. a pattern. frameworks just try to make it easier, that is until they dont conform to standards eeek.
 
What the fuck are they doing there in a production browser?
 
9:02 PM
language please, im 13.
/snicker
 
@Christian That's how new features are introduced
 
@PeeHaa So, it seems we didn't learn much from MSIE 6.
 
@Christian speak for yourself on that one. Careful of your use of "we"
 
I may not like it, because it also introduces fragmentation of implementations. But they are steps forward
 
@gorelative If you're all that happy about firefox/chrome/opera/safari .... it makes you one of them.
@PeeHaa I disagree.
 
9:04 PM
@Christian "one of the conformists".. i roll netscape.
 
@Christian Sure you disagree. You always do
Doesn't make it right
 
It is unacceptable in this day and age that we add more experimental features into software which currently malfunctions, and is well known to.
 
@Christian No it is your job as a developer to know what the standard is
 
@PeeHaa The standard doesn't talk about the exceptions.
 
Exceptions?
 
9:07 PM
If you read the W3C docs, you'll see that it's a huge gray area with a few spots of black and white.
 
throw new Exception('Division by zero.');
 
@Christian It clearly states it's a draft. Nothing gray about that
 
For all what the W3C cares about, a web browser could destroy your computer when it faces an ambiguous situation which the W3C didn't cater for.
 
W3C Working Draft 24 May 2012
Absolutely nothing unclear about that
 
Well then, stop basing crap on a draft. Finish it first.
 
9:09 PM
@Christian sigh
but but but...
 
But what? The problem is clearly spelled out.
 
Don't blame other people for your inability to read up on stuff
 
@PeeHaa That's completely irrelevant.
 
@Christian Yet so true
 
@PeeHaa What the fuck man.
So it's my fault Android browser doesn't support WS?
 
9:12 PM
@Christian Nopez it is your fault you are trying to use something which clearly isn't a standard (yet)
 
At the end of the day, I'm blamed for the bullshit people are missing out by doing the same crap they did back in IE6
 
@Christian If you would have told people it would be possible you ARE at fault
 
Didn't it occur to you I'm using something because someone asked me to?
 
2 mins ago, by PeeHaa
Don't blame other people for your inability to read up on stuff
 
Well, I don't know what to say.
Honestly.
It's easy blaming stuff on the guy that complains.
 
9:13 PM
You shouldn't be using WS in production yet.
 
@webarto Everyone is
And that's the damn point.
 
jesus christ, bitch much? lmao
 
If no one used it, I won't have to.
 
I'm not, I use it controlled env, where I can force users to update browser...
 
@Christian Oh I don't care when people complain about stuff. I just think it is stupid to cmoplain about stuff not working which isn't a standard yet
 
9:14 PM
@PeeHaa I'm not complaining about that.
 
It shouldn't work reliably yet
 
I'm complaining about putting features which are experimental in a production environment.
 
16 mins ago, by Christian
I find it completely absurd the fact that RIM and MSIE mobile (the lowest denominator) have a feature which has been missing in the Android browser for ages.
 
Christ...did you see what I just did, experimental and production, in the same sentence!!!
 
Yes you are
 
9:15 PM
@PeeHaa That is a problem definition, not a complaint.
 
@Christian All features are experimental until tested in the real world. So not putting "experimental" features in "production environments" would require never putting new features in production environments
 
@Christian You know you are impossible to discuss things with right?
 
It is kinda hard, yes. It is for a reason though.
See, I don't give a f* if a browser can't render a png correctly.
But my damn job depends on that.
And it depends on people doing their job right.
 
If your job depends on experimental features you're not the smartest person I know
 
@PeeHaa Or you are...
 
9:18 PM
And you should know it isn't a standard and it doesn't work on all browser if it is your job
@ircmaxell ?
 
don't you guys think you've reached a point in this discussion where you should just stop?
 
@PeeHaa Mkay, I'll just tell my boss to throw that project down the bin. It's perfectly fine for other guys to use bloatware (eg: socket.io) instead.
 
@PhilippeGerber Well I had made him into a nice small avatar and just thought hey let's see whether there is something useful coming from that part of the world. Guess what
 
It might be true that I'm not being realistic here, but I think the way browser features are being added is plain wrong.
 
@Christian What would you suggest?
 
9:19 PM
@PeeHaa Well, we've got the draft.
Next up is the implementation (still an experiment at this point).
 
uhhu
 
Finally, after months, we know it's stable and all.
 
And not knowing whether the draft would work in the real world
 
But it should be coordinated.
@PeeHaa Why should it? At that point, it's just a bunch of rules on paper.
Plus, we already have nightly versions and all.
 
Just a bunch of rules on paper hey
 
9:21 PM
@Christian I half agree. It has a LOT of problems. Sure. But it's far better than the old way it worked (in that one vendor introduced the "standard", and everyone else played catchup)... I'll take this current way any day of the week...
 
I mean, it's all there.... a little coordination and joint effort.
 
what is more defaulter in PHP, XML or JSON
I've seen PHP installations without JSON for example...
 
@webarto Not after 5.3
 
@ircmaxell Well, I never proposed going backwards. :)
 
@PeeHaa what about XML? Thanks
 
9:22 PM
@webarto Well, there's a lot of xml classes.
But at the end, you end up with some specific classes
 
Just default ones, SimpleXML for example.
 
instead, if you did $a = json_decode($b) you don't even know if $a was json in the first place.
 
@webarto You could always easily come up with your own JSON implementation as fallback if you really want to target < 5.2
 
@Christian Does it matter? You either have well-formed or non well-formed (garbage) JSON.
 
@PeeHaa probably something if ! function_exists, etc, thanks! should I parse XML with regex :P
 
9:25 PM
@webarto You should definitely go for regex ;) I heard it is freaking great for that sort of stuff
 
@PhilippeGerber To his question, yes. No need to learn some classes on using json...it's regular PHP variables.
 
to what question?
 
4 mins ago, by webarto
what is more defaulter in PHP, XML or JSON
 
@webarto btw I believe DOMDocument is php 5
Sorry couldn't resist multiping :)
 
:D
 
9:27 PM
what has error proneness to do with what's more likely available in a PHP installation?
 
Anyway, I'm off for the night. 27 hours straight without sleep ain't doing me no good.
 
what's more likely available in a PHP installation?
@PhilippeGerber this is what I wanted to ask :)
 
@PhilippeGerber Well, at that point I thought he was asking which is easier to use from PHP.
 
@webarto defends on your target "audience"
but i would not limit myself beyond PHP 5.2 anyways, so I doesn't really matter. :)
 
@webarto Both can be emulated when they're missing in the install.
 
9:29 PM
@Christian gn8 then
 
yup, g'night all.
 
does it deminish the nerdlyness of some one when they watch trueblood while programming
 
@PhilippeGerber WP users on cheap shared hostings :) I'll turn to JSON
@Christian emulated with regex :P
 
@webarto Are you writing a WP plugin?
 
@webarto .ini :P
 
9:31 PM
@webarto Ow wait just saw the starred message
 
@PeeHaa yeah man :(
 
What kind of pluing are you writing?
 
something like that (you search for images and add them to your blog post)
 
@webarto wordpress requires PHP 5.2.4, so you can safely use json_decode()
 
ah, didn't know that, thanks!
 
9:35 PM
(this is for wordpress >= 3.2. wordpress <= 3.1 require PHP 4.3 ... but that's a route you don't want to go)
 
I'll rather jump of the building
 
has anyone some keywords regarding game simulation (like in football manager)?
 
manager, simiulator, realistic
 
lol // wordpress // lol
 
May 29 at 6:51, by Truth
WordPress is a CMS for designers. It's horrible for programmers
 
9:42 PM
hmm ... looks like have 23.4% unscored answers
 
@orourkek wordpress is not a CMS...
 
@ircmaxell I'd agree to a certain degree, but the OP's sentiment is spot on :]
 
the sentiment is fine, just not the content
 
@ircmaxell wordpress is a cms
 
how would you define a CMS that doesn't mostly include wordpress?
 
9:53 PM
or where is the concret definition. I tell you. There is none. Its just a buzzword flying around the metaspace
 
@orourkek A system that can manage arbitrary content...
 
which wordpress can do
 
Wordpress can do exactly 2 thins: manage blog posts and manage comments
it can't manage arbitrary content without all sorts of dirty ass hacks
 
@ircmaxell the 'arbitrary' part is a bit entirely subjective
 
write a plugin and you can manage banana charts
 
9:55 PM
@orourkek No, it's not. That's what defines a CMS. Having the ability to manage different types of content and their relationships with each other.
 
I generally refer to it as a "blogging platform," but it's extensible to the point of being a CMS
 
Wordpress is a blog engine. They may try to bill themselves as a CMS. They may make it look like a CMS. but it's not
@orourkek PHPBB is extensible to the point that it's an email client. Does that make it one?
 
@ircmaxell The definition isn't subjective, but wordpress's ability to "manage" that "arbitrary content" is open to debate (plugins, mods, etc etc)
 
Well, and of course we're using the term "manage" loosely here...
 
manage == crud or manage == configure
or both
 
9:58 PM
I've yet to see an agreed upon (to-the-word) definition of a CMS...
 
or manage == a lot more than just CRUD...
like export, merge, relate, fork, etc
 
so
which point diid you miss in wp.
its extensible
 
lol
 
4 mins ago, by ircmaxell
@orourkek PHPBB is extensible to the point that it's an email client. Does that make it one?
 
if it does not exists write your own
 
10:01 PM
@jami just because you can glue a knife on hamster's back , does not make it a "living weapon"
 
think about it
:D
hamsterknife
 
With a complete lack of a formal definition of "CMS," I think it's fair to say (and we can all agree) that wordpress just plain sucks.
 
@tereško software is a little more complex than your comparison
and images wont work in this debate
 
@tereško I'm pretty sure a knife glued to a hamster's back would be a pretty dangerous weapon, albeit unpredictable...
 
10:04 PM
just because you can add additional functionality to a software , does not make it initially made for that
 
but it's the Franklinator!
 
@tereško why. What should your cms look like. Should it be a all-rounder. Which have all that weird stuff that you need
 
it should be made for handling all sort of content . WP's db structure is no made for that
 
not by a long shot
 
10:07 PM
well if we want to get technical about it, "arbitrary" is too broad to allow any CMS to fit the definition
 
what is your "concret" definition of a cms. Where did you get it (a ref please no image, no allegory)
 
@jami also , it has nothing to do with how it looks
 
@jami I got it from years of experience...
@orourkek web-centric arbitrary
 
aha
ok
@tereško dont be so petty. get the point
 
so basically "arbitrary" without any of the qualifiers that actually give the word its meaning?
 
10:09 PM
I'm out
later...
 
@ircmaxell bye
 
hey guys
does anyone use pixelmator for there art?
 
this is php chat room , i think you did something wrong with your keyboard
 
LOL
i did something wrong w my keyboard
i was trying to clean the gum off it
 
like choosing the wrong channel
 
10:12 PM
and somehow i accidentally typed all that one
one in a million
all that out*
 
obligatory:
The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type a given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare. In this context, "almost surely" is a mathematical term with a precise meaning, and the "monkey" is not an actual monkey, but a metaphor for an abstract device that produces a random sequence of letters and symbols ad infinitum. The relevance of the theory is questionable—the probability of a monkey exactly typing a complete work such as Shakespeare's Hamlet is so tiny tha...
 
meh "infinite amount of time" doesn't hit the real world
 
i hate this site its so darn annoying ahahhahahahahjdhgkjsfnblnuoiwBGouibuKL!JOI1je8rh398fg298bfo
o crap man that was a lucky one
i am one in a billion!
LOL
 
@ownageGuy I sure hope you are
 
i did nothing wrong a monkey came and typed it
 
10:15 PM
@PeeHaa hm im sure
 
jami sounds like "pami", and pami is a native language term which means bananas
o guys i wouldn't trust what i just said
a monkey wrote it
 
thats for sure
 
LOL
ok guys I'm going to leave
idk what the heck I'm doing here
 
10:31 PM
if someone has mysql experience (db structure design), please help stackoverflow.com/questions/11639424/…
 
@epic_syntax That's the best DB structure question I've seen in a while. Thank you for taking the time to write a decent question. I don't have anything to add to the answers, though.
@rdlowrey How's your computer doing? No more OS troubles?
I saw some Artax updates ~2 hours ago, but haven't looked through them yet.
 
user895378
@LeviMorrison Everything is working just fine. As for the updates, they were mostly miscellaneous bug fixing, reformatting and refactoring ... except for one thing
 
user895378
10:46 PM
@LeviMorrison I've gone back and forth on whether to include functionality to easily access form encoded request body parameters in StdRequest. One of the recent updates moved the functionality that now lives in the Artax\Http\FormEncodableRequest interface into the actual StdRequest but doesn't require it in the the base Request interface.
 
user895378
I had it separated into another class that extended StdRequest but in terms of framework usage, continued use made it clear that doing so unnecessarily complicated things. I've changed my mind about it several times, though, so I'm still open to input if you don't like how it is now.
 
@epic_syntax ever tried joins? Normalize your db structure like the awnser said and join the tables together. You can use views too
putting-all-together-tables are normally realized via views
 
@rdlowrey Parsing a form encoded request body is a simple matter, but not an intuitive one.
parse_str is not easily found.
Nor does it have the greatest function signature.
 
user895378
@LeviMorrison either way, StdRequest now implements this interface ...
 
user895378
interface FormEncodableRequest extends Request {
    public function hasBodyParameter($parameter);
    public function getBodyParameter($parameter);
    public function getAllBodyParameters();
}
 
10:55 PM
That's probably better than extending StdRequest.
 
user895378
Any StdRequest whose HTTP method verb allows a form encoded body automatically does the work for you.
 
@rdlowrey Is that done in a factory or in the class itself?
 
user895378
@LeviMorrison in the class
 
@rdlowrey Also, is this necessary?
$valid = array('OPTIONS', 'GET', 'HEAD', 'POST', 'PUT', 'DELETE', 'TRACE', 'CONNECT');
I don't personally know of anyone using PATCH, but I imagine SOMEONE is.
And HTTP is extendable.
So I could have an UPDATE method, technically.
 
user895378
@LeviMorrison Okay, I'll kill it. If you can't specify a valid verb for your purposes it probably can't be helped.
 
10:58 PM
@rdlowrey Even if you kept it, I would still complain that its name sucks.
$valid? valid what?
 
user895378
:)
 
You did read Clean Code, right? :)
 
user895378
Sometimes crazy things happen in the middle of the night.
 
lol
Oh the code we write at night . . .
 
user895378
And it's also nice to have more than one set of eyes to catch those crazy things.
 
11:02 PM
$valid_validity_check
 
Also, I may get a job because of Careers 2.0 . I went along with the initial interviews because I figured the experience was worth it (I didn't think I would interested in the job).
I have one more interview and I honestly think I'll get a job offer.
 
user895378
That's cool.
 
user895378
I've always kept my Careers 2.0 profile hidden because I haven't been in the job market, but I may eventually display it in case anyone wants to offer me an obscene amount of money (not likely)
 
It's front-end work (meh), but it's modern front-end work. I get to write in SASS instead of CSS, they use require.js, and they target IE8+.
So we'll see.
If they pay is right, I'll take it.
Even though I don't have a lot of JS experience they seemed to be okay with it. They asked me a lot of CS related questions. It seems like they want a good programmer and don't mind if my JS experience isn't quite up to par if it means a good dev.
 
user895378
Makes sense. Seems to me It's better to have someone who understands the concepts because that way they can apply them in any language.
 
11:07 PM
I guess I may have to learn prototypal inheritance after all.
lol
 
user895378
Oh, FYI I added the vfsStream repo as a submodule. Until I add some conditionals the test suite won't run without it (used to mock the file system in currently uncommitted config package tests). So you'll still want to do git clone --recursive going forward.
 
Jolly good.
Will it also work for the HTTP streams?
 
user895378
@LeviMorrison I've only ever used it to mock file system functions and I only have a surface-level knowledge of what it can really do. It may be able to, but I can't say definitively. I haven't gotten around to testing Artax\Http\Client yet, mostly because I'm using it for extensive integration tests and it's worked very well so far.
 
user895378
So I've been focusing on knocking out tests for everything else.
 
people who run these crap video hosting sites need to halt some practices. 1 don't bother with custom error codes if they constatly state blatantly wrong data, 2 no more holding screenshots and using them to ask for money , 3 advertisements that redirect you from their page automatically.
I don't know what retard thinks that coctail makes for good business but it doesn't
 
11:18 PM
@rdlowrey Well that's good to hear, at least.
It's my most useful contribution to the project, lol.
 
user895378
It's extremely useful to me already.
 
ooh we talkin about projects
what you guys up too?
 
Also, if we choose to expose the previous headers (which we probably should), then we need to either give them JUST the headers or do the redirects ourselves. However, the latter is not as small of an undertaking as it may seem.
 
user895378
@LeviMorrison I'm thinking to test it I may just fork a process to run an instance of the built-in 5.4 webserver locally while testing and skip the tests if the user's php version is < 5.4 for now.
 
Fair enough.
 
11:21 PM
indeed
 
time to cut some mushrooms
 
user895378
testing against an example app served from localhost:8096 is a lot faster than a live page at cs.byu.edu :)
 
user895378
Anyway, afk for the next two hours, then back for more unit testing fun!
 
@ert3 We're making a small framework to help develop RESTful applications. It is also well-tested and we've tried to decouple each module as much as we can.
It's still a very young project.
 
oooh
I'd have a go at that if I wheren't finishing up a project
 
11:23 PM
My friend @rdlowrey has written most of the code, but parts of it have been discussed quite a bit in this chat room.
It also has the parts to do an event-based programming model. That can be very useful at times.
 
guys , i need a good lecture to listen to will messing around in kitchen
any suggestions ?
 
ok guys looking for my /co/manders here, wondering if any watch sherlock just now streaming searies 2 ep 3 have to say i still hate moriati
 
@tereško I don't have any good suggestions for lectures unless you are interested in learning more about Google Dart.
 
nope
 
@tereško you keep up on the duke podcast, must be something interesting there?
 
11:29 PM
i would prefer something on general SQL, pure javascript or RESTful services
 
oh man i have something for that too
one sec
well had
best get out those doctor who radio dramas
 
@rdlowrey :) You can't tell me you've never put some code into a test case just so you can what is going on.
 
11:51 PM
@ert3 well .. i am only at 120-sh episode
 

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