« first day (2199 days earlier)      last day (2746 days later) » 

4:04 PM
@NikiC Why does 3v4l.org/7k2R8 work, but 3v4l.org/UpTmR not? :-(
 
@kelunik I would argue that accessing undefined properties should not be suppressed by ??
Instead, what we need is $foo?->bar?->x ?? 1
 
@DaveRandom It's the semantic of it. It's the same as isset.
 
@kelunik Exactly. So how does isset() behave with calls to undefined methods?
Like that
Thankfully
I'd consider it a minor disaster if you couldn't use ?? on method return values because it suppresses call errors
 
4:19 PM
I'm not overly keen on ?? suppressing any errors at all
 
@DaveRandom I'd prefer if it only suppressed an "undefined" error at the outermost level (as that's kinda its job)
 
@NikiC It should only act on the return value, not suppress the call error.
 
Because it happens on all levels, it means that something like $varaible->foo ?? will silently work
@kelunik that's what it does...
 
@NikiC I mean, if the return value in a multi-level call is null, then short circuit.
 
I think this attempt failed, this server does not want to php to be updated >_>
 
4:24 PM
@NikiC My view, in retrospect (was not the case at the time) is that it should be specifically for null coalesce i.e. when something is null, error suppression should be controlled at specific access points. Like in $foo->bar?->baz->getValue() ?? 1 - in this case $foo::bar may of may not be set, but if it is then if bar::baz is not set then it's an error
 
@DaveRandom yeah, that might have been better
 
@PeeHaa scrutinizer gave 8.32 :P
though I'm not sure yet how should the configuration file be
 
@Ekin That's not too bad
 
yeah I guess, also I didn't run it again after merging the patch
 
4:32 PM
patch = what it suggested
all just spaces
ah checking
I was actually looking at the opcache gui one you had :P
so, this thing is not supposed to run the tests, am I right?
considering there's travis
 
I let it also run tests. But that's just for the code coverage badge scrutinizer provides :P
 
hmm I see
 
It could technically use travis results but that is flaky as fuck
 
how about the travis.yml?
does it just need the after_script bit?
 
@JoeWatkins No, I don't.
@NikiC Do you know how much work is actually being done on JIT? Basically do you think another year will be enough for it to achieve even 5-10% gains on real codebases?
Do you think we'll have a version 7.3?
I see a lot of commits but its unclear if these are performance related or infrastructure or bug fixes.
 
4:43 PM
@LeviMorrison I think the project is too early to make a guess here. Currently there is no gain on real codebases and it's not entirely clear if there will be
 
@PeeHaa do you remember my CMS project? I was thinking to add a class that represent the pages, is it a good idea?
 
Also, the JIT will likely be rather non-intrusive (the current version is contained entirely in opcache), so it may not require a major version bump anyway
So I'd go with the assumption that there will be a 7.3
 
You don't think it will end up affecting internals to gain actual improvements?
 
@LeviMorrison I think it will, but I don't think those changes will affect much more than zend extensions
As anything should still be limited to the vm
 
Thanks.
I think I'm going to put arrow functions to vote with symbol choice being part of the RFC.
The results of the strawpoll on syntax were essentially inconclusive, with nearly equal parts => and ==>.
 
4:47 PM
yeah I guess
did you give any further thought to the || syntax?
 
I have.
 
what were your conclusions?
 
I'm not confident it would gain more support than => or ==>.
It does have some definite improvements from a technical perspective.
 
@LeviMorrison I found it ...
 
It doesn't have any ambiguities it needs to avoid, unlike ().
But as we've seen in the past technical merit does not mean Internals will like it.
@NikiC Honestly I think the best way to convince Internals would be a presentation format with Q&A. We don't really have such an avenue.
 
4:52 PM
@LeviMorrison Do you think it's worth discussing it as a possibility on-list?
@LeviMorrison heh
 
I think if they could hear actual human voices that would be better than just reading emails.
Maybe I can put together a presentation and you and @bwoebi could join me for a hangout session and grill me on it :D
I don't know.
@Nikic I really want this to succeed and fear that acting too early could prevent it from happening for yet another release.
 
#PHP 7 drew, and is animating, what you see here with #libui: https://gist.github.com/krakjoe/76653e7e485b769d5178ca666acbc952 https://t.co/sEBJ1nrvR5
 
@yessure Classes for specific things is almost always a good thing
 
I like the fractal trees one too, but can't find any succinct code
 
Yeah that's what I thought. I am doing a 'separation of concerns' to get the things more organized :D
 
5:02 PM
there is something very pleasing about that
 
@JoeWatkins Is it very much
 
it's cool right
there's loads of them, but there is something about that one ...
 
@JoeWatkins retro
 
I'm very bad at things you look at
I spent ages trying to convert a really fancy one, it could be done, but I hate reading js
 
@JoeWatkins I am very agree with both of those things
Making things look pretty is what designers are for
well they are also quite good for throwing things at, but only when you don't want them to make something look pretty for you
btw @JoeWatkins docs.php.net/manual/en/ui-app.run.php really? two boolean args rather than int $flags?
 
5:18 PM
yeah that was shit
 
Not too late :-)
I can do it if you cba, rather than just complaining about it
 
yeah do it
it looks a bit like that underneath the first layer of libui, is the reason it's like that ... which is a very bad reason ...
the top layer of libui is even stupider ...
 
@JoeWatkins I will have a general poke around and sanity check the APIs later :-)
will work up a patch as well
but right now bbiab RL
 
excellent
lata
 
@NikiC What to name an RFC if we use Rust's syntax? Naming is so hard ^_^
 
5:25 PM
@LeviMorrison short closure syntax? ^^
 
Bob already had one with that name ^_^
Implicit closures?
@NikiC I'm not sure people will like zero-argument closures with rust syntax:
$make = || $x;
 
@LeviMorrison that looks like a typoed logical or assign
 
I don't think it would ever be ambiguous but that doesn't mean it wouldn't confuse people ^_^
$make_maker = || || $x;
^ amazing.
 
@LeviMorrison I'm in! (Not now but perhaps tomorrow)
 
$make = | | $x;
^ Still looks weird if you put a space there.
|$x| $x + $y

|$x| {
    return $x + $y;
}

function ($x) use ($y) {
    return $x + $y;
}
Those would all be equivalent.
Aside from zero-arity I like it a lot.
 
5:36 PM
@DaveRandom I do not like it too much. It'd makes it a bit weird to read...
 
@LeviMorrison Without a mapping like -> or => it's harder to read.
 
do I need to add limit 1 for mysql select for id ?
 
@bwoebi It doesn't look nice with ->, I'll give you that. It's fine with . though, I use it regularly
@user3304007 not unless you might have duplicated IDs.
 
However adding LIMIT to entity fetching queries is usually unnecessary and/or code smell anyway
LIMIT is useful for search pagination, it has no other purpose that I'm aware of
 
5:51 PM
why unnesessary, if I dont add it and not searching for id, it will search all the records, but I just need it stop when it finds
 
LIMIT doesn't short circuit, it's applied after ordering
 
wait, I just need to find 1 record. like, searcing a username of abcabc
it only 1 record in database
 
@user3304007 There's a difference between search and read. When you are "searching" by ID you are actually reading entries, i.e. when they are not there it's an error, and when there is more than one it's an error
and by error there I mean corrupted data
You don't want to hide that error, you want to know about it
 
This is obviously a generalisation, but it's true in the 99.9% use case
 
6:07 PM
@DaveRandom It can be used for query optimization. If you know there will be only one result, the SQL server can abort the query after one result is found.
 
@kelunik It shouldn't work like that
15 mins ago, by DaveRandom
LIMIT doesn't short circuit, it's applied after ordering
 
@DaveRandom Yes it should. Why not?
 
if you know there will be only one result, then the unique constraint that should be there should do that job
 
Depending on the sort algorithm, you don't need to sort the complete result set.
 
15 mins ago, by DaveRandom
@user3304007 There's a difference between search and read. When you are "searching" by ID you are actually reading entries, i.e. when they are not there it's an error, and when there is more than one it's an error
15 mins ago, by DaveRandom
and by error there I mean corrupted data
This is the job of constraints
Using limit in this fashion, you are potentially masking data integrity errors
If there should only be one of something, the database structure should know this
It's a different story with e.g. a many-to-one where there should be no more than 5
So in fact actually @kelunik saying "it shouldn't work like that" isn't really true, I mean "it shouldn't be used like that"
I am dead on the floor laughing you guys https://t.co/Kx2AuNOrUD
srsly that is way funnier than it should be
 
6:20 PM
Does anyone have any recommendations for a cheap stereo amplifier, particularly one that supports two pairs of speakers? Every place that sells them online seems to be giving me the "I'm about to be ripped off" vibe.
The only thing i'd connect to it currently are my computer, an iphone, and maybe a TV at some point in the future.
 
Two pairs of speakers but still just stereo?
 
yeah. I like having an even sound volume across the room.
aka I can't be arsed to adjust the volume when I move.
 
OK, how many input channels?
And what are the speakers you currently have?
Also what's your budget?
 
Plain stereo input.....and no speakers yet.
 
@Danack What I meant by that was: how many input devices?
 
6:25 PM
@DaveRandom thats the thing.....I had assumed that stereo equipment might have become cheaper over the last 20 years......apparently not. The first desktop computer I bought was over £1000 and the integrated stereo system at the time was about £300.
 
Like in my lounge I just have everything running through a small form factor PC with a sound card with 3 line ins
 
It seems now that a desktop PC is £300 and a stereo with speakers is a lot more.
@DaveRandom computer, iphone, and maybe TV at some point. Where TV = some box that doesn't involve a license fee.
 
@Danack Well the low-end integrated stuff has got drastically better in the price/quality ratio, but mid/high-end stuff is still expensive. The reason in theory is because they use better quality components which are still expensive to manufacture (this is true, raw materials haven't really got much cheaper and the tech hasn't changed much) but in practice I think a lot of it is just based on the fact that people expect it to be expensive
@Danack Right, but you can run both of those things through a PC, any basic sound card can do this, you hook the TV/box up to the rear line and you just jack aux devices like an ipod or whatever to the front input
I can tell you from experience that this is a superior way to configure the set up, otherwise you will be constantly trying to work out why you have no sound and fucking with inputs all the time
running it through the PC, everything is just mixed into one big ball of sound, which can be annoying in other ways but is generally less frustrating
of course then you do have the annoyance of having 3 separate ways to adjust the volume of the TV sound...
@Danack You want a desktop PC, I can help you with that
just poking around on eBay to see if I can see anything that looks worth having
Actually I also have a decent set of mission speakers that you can have, they are literally just getting in the way
 
Finally back home \o/
\o all
 
o/
 
this will be worth a punt @Danack I would say, my experience of old Kenwood kit is generally positive, I've run across a couple of dead/distorted channels (mine has 2 out of 8) but at £60 that has to be worth a punt
As I say, I have a pair of old Mission speakers that you can have for free
And I can help with a PC as well, won't exactly be performance kit but fine for a media centre
 
evenin'
 
o/
 
evenings
 
@DaveRandom I'm probably going to hold off on getting a PC for the moment. I do need to get a better machine for developing on at home, but I'm not sure whether to either get a decent specced normal PC, or to get one of the new macbooks (when they come out), and a cheapy small form factor PC for playing audio.
 
6:41 PM
o/
 
\o
 
Anonymous
@DaveRandom how feasible is it to have an enableForRoom for all rooms? Am I right in thinking that rooms don't currently share anything, they're just completely separate instances of Jeeves?
 
@Danack this. I've managed to get down to one remote now - the BT TV one - because you can reprogram the volume controls to the amp and the AV switcher button to the TV and that's it. Any extra devices I just have a loose 3.5mm jack that I plug them into.
 
one remote ... living the dream ...
 
@JayIsTooCommon No, there's only one process and there's only one instance of the plugin class for the whole process, i.e. it's shared across all rooms.
enableForRoom() will be called on the sane instance every time the plugin is "enabled", which is both when the bot enters the room (if the plugin is enabled at that time) and when it is enabled with !!plugin enable.
When the bot enters the room and the plugin is already enabled (i.e. when re-joining a room) bool $persist will be false. When !!plugin enable is invoked, $persist will be true
what are you actually trying to do @JayIsTooCommon?
@JoeWatkins yeh, it's not even a "one for all" thing either :-P
 
6:51 PM
tis amazing that we are still using 1900's tech to control our media equipment ... what is that thing rattling around inside all remote controls ?
 
great, final lexicon file is 735.1KB
aand packing all your stuff is a sad, sad thing to do
 
Anonymous
@DaveRandom I'm just thinking about the discussion earlier about GitHub status, not sure if you saw it. To sum it up, polling in enableForRoom isn't a great solution when considering multi-room Jeeves
 
hey @Danack on another subject entirely, do you have any recommendations for how to put code samples on slides so they don't look awful when you put them on a projector? I have been basically doing screen grabs but I have a feeling they will look terrible when scaled up on to a projector screen
 
@DaveRandom Either use reveal.js / slides.com which has a semi-decent code highlighter, or just generate some HTML from the raw tokens...
@DaveRandom btw the source code to my slides is available: github.com/Danack/docs/tree/master/public/…
 
7:11 PM
@JayIsTooCommon The way the PR does it right now is fine because it will only start the repeater once, when it's enabled the first time. However it does need to handle disableForRoom() as well, I added a review.
@Danack uhhh... I had so far just been using powerpoint because I am evil
 
Anonymous
@DaveRandom yeah kelunik handled it, but from what I gathered it was a work around? I was just thinking about the feasibility of something in the core to handle cross-room requests
 
@JayIsTooCommon How do you mean "cross room requests" sorry?
 
Anonymous
@DaveRandom I think I'm getting the wrong end of the stick, sorry. So the issue, is that a new loop (like the one I added) will start every time Jeeves enters a room. That's why kelunik added that change, right? - is what he added a workaround because we don't have the ability to run one loop per plugin/instance or is that actually the best way to do it?
 
7:31 PM
@JayIsTooCommon Well the way that you run something once per plugin is to do it at a point that is executed globally. Now you could do this in the ctor, but that's generally not a good idea because putting business logic in the ctor is difficult to test (because obviously Jeeves is well tested :-P). However, more importantly, if you describe what you are actually doing, you want to poll github for status updates and post information about that into rooms for which the plugin is enabled.
 
kimi no na wa was awesome af
but the ending was good
:')
 
imagine a state where the bot is started and runs for a week but the plugin is not enabled in any of the room that the bot is in for that week
you don't want to be polling github every 15 seconds there, because there's no-one to feed that information to
So it's better to start that loop the first time that the bot is enabled in a room
And similarly, you need to stop it when the bot is no longer enabled in any rooms, because again you have no-one to inform when the status changes
This is true in general of all plugins - they shouldn't be doing work when they are not enabled in any rooms
this is the reason that there is currently no global init() type thing for plugins at startup, at least nothing apart from the plugin ctor
Now it's possible that there is some use case which I have not thought of, but it is by design, because I cannot see any reason for a plugin to do anything unless it's enabled in at least one room
obviously if someone comes up with that use case then I'm happy to discuss that, but this is not one :-)
What it might be worth doing @JayIsTooCommon in order to make this easier to wrap your head around, is creating a GithubPoller class which wraps this logic.
 
Anonymous
Yep, I understand what you're saying. I need to understand the multi-room stuff more, so will look at the code and pretend I know what I'm doing :-p. Thanks for explaining.
 
Linear – Everything runs in the order in which it is written, from start to finish. This refers to a high-level routine.
Atomic – Cannot be broken down into smaller chunks. This refers to a low-level operation.
Blocking – Atomic. If the operation cannot be completed immediately, wait until it can be completed before returning control to the caller. This refers to a single low-level operation.
Synchronous – When applied to programming, this describes a situation where operations executed in series. The first must complete before the second is started and so on. This refers to a high-level ro
@kelunik @bwoebi @JoeWatkins ^ /cc @everyone
 
7:47 PM
@DaveRandom TIL
 
I'm not really sure how I'm going to use those fairly disparate chunks of information but I feel like I need to define some terms because I see people using them incorrectly all the time
 
Atomic albeit correct doesn't say much like that
As in what makes it easy to work with
bye bye verstappen @Wes
 
Anonymous
Am off, nn o/
 
nite
 
\o
@JayIsTooCommon btw. sleep is for the weak tho :/
 
8:04 PM
@PeeHaa yeh that may or may not make it in to the talk, that was mostly for me to get it straight in my own head
 
coverage:
    file: 'some-file'     <-- which file/where is this?
    format: 'clover'
 
I also have wondered whether that line is actually necessary ^ @PeeHaa
 
I think scrutinizer actually needs it but tbh I am not 100% sure about that
 
it seems like it does
 
I always stop touching it once it works
@Ekin That is generated by phpunit
 
8:13 PM
uh.. how do I make it get that file?
 
It does that automagically when scutinizer runs the tests
 
not sure what I'm missing then
 
It turns it into something like vendor/bin/phpunit --coverage-clover --coverage-file=foo I think
@Ekin It doesn't work for you?
 
nope
 
You sure it's not just scrutinizer being slow?
 
8:16 PM
can you review this branch to see if you can spot anything wrong?
 
Sure
 
I mean the yml files
ty :-)
 
oh I just removed the coverage bit there, uh
 
I have no idea whether it works with phpdbg
 
8:17 PM
yeah it does
I see the results just like in travis
 
kk
 
but if I add the coverage bit with "some-file" expecting a magic - it fails
and actually, it says <travis_logo> Failed <travis_link> but the build passes on travis
 
Do you have an inspections on here scrutinizer-ci.com/g/ekinhbayar/IntervalParser/inspections that fails?
 
nope
 
BTW you don't really need the xdebug stuff in travis config
 
8:21 PM
yeah I was about to remove that
at the moment the covereage: bit is not there on scrutinizer config as well
 
That was more for me trying to hunt down some differences between xdebug and phpdbg
 
I saw it on a few other repos too, which is why I wanted to try but removing it now
 
Can you drop the xedbug stuff from travis and add the coverage to scrutinizer and push so I can check
@Ekin Really? More people are doing it? That's odd
FWIW it's not strange to have 10 commits saying "trying to fix the damn scrutinizer"
For some reason is kinda hard to set up
> The coverage file '/home/scrutinizer/build/coverage.clover' was not found.
 
yep that
 
hmmmmmm
 
8:25 PM
> 1 min - Fix Travis after cleanup
1 min - Clean up after making Travis work
2 mins - Haaaaaaaaaands
3 mins - Also I hate Travis
3 mins - I hate PHP
5 mins - Maybe travis will work this time
8 mins - Actually make Travis work
10 mins - Make Travis work
^ literally every repo ever I have used Travis with
 
So much that
 
@DaveRandom you might want to be careful with atomic: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomicity_%28database_systems%29
 
@kelunik right, I'm going to try and avoid actually using that in the finished thing
 
wait @Ekin
 
waits
 
8:27 PM
        command: 'phpdbg -qrr vendor/bin/phpunit --coverage-text --coverage-clover=some-file'
        coverage:
            file: 'coverage.clover'
            format: 'clover'
 
eeew sorry
 
Pretty sure both files need the same name
One is the thing phpunit will generate the other is what scrutinizer uses for generating the badge
 
@DaveRandom also be careful with "Asynchronous – Many operations may be executed in parallel.", async is explixitly not the same as parallel.
 
yeah I shouldn't rush, updated
 
@kelunik oh good point
How about "many operations will be executed concurrently"?
ugh, it's not surprising people get this wrong so much :-/
 
8:30 PM
Just Stick to the Visual definition from @JoeWatkins
 
linky?
 
lol
 
\o/
 
I don't get it... what I have now that worked is what I had like 15 mins ago that failed -_-
 
8:32 PM
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
:D
 
:D
okay, thanks again
 
np
 
Good night, happy to discuss more tomorrow, @DaveRandom
 
8:34 PM
I don't get it... what I have now that worked is what I had like 15 mins ago that failed -_-
 
good evening
 
@DaveRandom atomic is in particular: uninterruptible and exclusive.
@DaveRandom Blocking ≠ atomic thus.
 
@bwoebi I'm trying to avoid mentioning atomicity in the actual presentation, ftr
 
good idea, because it doesn't matter in that context.
 
8:37 PM
@bwoebi what do you mean by exclusive here?
 
@NikiC there's no access to a temporary state from the outside possible
i.e. the only one who can modify or access temporary states during an atomic action is who executes that action.
i.e. readers will always only see the state of all operands as before operation was started or after it was ended
@NikiC pretty much like exclusive lock
@DaveRandom asynchronous is wrong. Async ≠ multi-threading. Async == arbitrary pre-emption.
I.e. with non-blocking we always explicitly need to yield control; with async something else (OS) can move point of execution to something totally different at any time.
@DaveRandom multi-threading == parallel processing.
So, actually you definition of "async" is not wrong, but it's not an equivalency, just an implication.
 
@bwoebi Yes ... that's the important part. Talking about exclusivity in the context of atomic is pretty weird for me.
 
@NikiC don't know; how would you paraphrase it better in a few concise words?
 
@bwoebi What does async have to do with preemption?
@bwoebi How @DaveRandom phrased it originally ^^
 
@NikiC mhm
 
8:47 PM
@DaveRandom just s/parallel/concurrent/g and it's all good for me
 
@NikiC I mean preemptive handler invocation vs cooperative invocation?
 
@bwoebi But why does that have anything to do with async?
 
@NikiC because that's what async is?
 
@bwoebi Is it?
 
@DaveRandom but then you probably want to explain the difference between parallel and concurrent...
good luck
 
8:51 PM
@NikiC yes!?
 
(shit's hard yo)
 
@bwoebi [citation needed]
 
@NikiC What does happen upon an async event in C?
… the OS preempts the process, puts a new stackframe on it and continues it
 
@bwoebi Wait, are you talking about async signal handlers here in particular?
And not about async IO?
 
@NikiC what is async IO???
 
8:56 PM
Any clever way to forward to the closest specified time using DateTime modify only? e.g. I'd like to move the clock to the next 9am. Tried "next 9am", "first 9am"
 
@NikiC that's the only form of async I know of actually (in a normal program).
 
@Weltschmerz port this to php datejs.com
 
@bwoebi Not sure if you're just messing with me here?
 
@NikiC No, I'm not. you can set fcntl(O_ASYNC), but that's just going to deliver SIGIO signals.
 
In computer science, asynchronous I/O, or "Non-sequential I/O" is a form of input/output processing that permits other processing to continue before the transmission has finished. Input and output (I/O) operations on a computer can be extremely slow compared to the processing of data. An I/O device can incorporate mechanical devices that must physically move, such as a hard drive seeking a track to read or write; this is often orders of magnitude slower than the switching of electric current. For example, during a disk operation that takes ten milliseconds to perform, a processor that is clocked...
 
8:59 PM
@bwoebi there are other ways to do async IO
 
I mean sure, using signals can be a component in the implementation of async io -- though a pretty bad one. You of all people should know
 
Does anyone have an article that explains in simple words why people don't 'have' to use a framework?
 

« first day (2199 days earlier)      last day (2746 days later) »