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9:04 PM
@NikiC you don't have a twitter account perchance, do you?
 
@ScottArciszewski He has… nikita_ppv
 
user895378
@Jimbo o/
 
\o
Just at conference, practicing talk in room :-)
 
@rdlowrey Why are you so lazy? Procrastinating all day doing "real" work instead of actual Aerys work…
 
9:18 PM
@tereško why should I hide it using CSS? can I use a hidden input in HTML? like this: <input type="hidden" name="email">
 
user895378
@bwoebi I know right. I'm really going to try to do some aerys stuff this weekend.
 
because bot can read the HTML
 
@rdlowrey I actually thought you were paid to work on it?
 
user895378
haha no, I'm paid to get stuff done ... that may or may not include working on aerys things
 
noice!
 
9:20 PM
@tereško oh, I see
 
@rdlowrey so, it actually doesn't?
 
user895378
real world work is rarely that binary.
 
I mean, I thought you were paid to work on these Aerys things you need for work, which includes working on Aerys itself where necessary?
 
@Sajad you have to look at this from the other viewpoint: what would you do if you tried to make a bot
 
user895378
@bwoebi no, that is not what I'm paid for :)
 
9:22 PM
@tereško he'd ask you how to do it
 
@rdlowrey Yea, no idea ;-)
 
@PaulCrovella lol
 
@tereško actually I know to create a bot, but I think that bot (what is your mean) is different with mine. for example I can create a bot using this library, and put it in the Cron Jobs for running it. your mean of "bot" is some thing like it?
 
in this case the task for the bot would be to crawl the internet and attempt to post some content ant any opportunity
 
ah, so my bot is working on the static codes (and sometimes copy them), but your bot busy the server of my website!
there is any reference to I learn how can I create a bot?
 
9:30 PM
and it begins...
 
@Sajad no
it is a mental exercise, not a practical task
 
@Sajad Maybe. I doubt anyone here really knows without looking on Google themselves, though. By the time people have enough skill to make a bot, they're not looking at tutorials.
 
besides, we have this unofficial policy of not teaching how to make spam bots and viruses
 
@bwoebi And twitter.com/nikic is not even used, just registered :(
 
We're happy to let you shoot your own foot. We won't tell you how to make your own rifle.
2
 
9:34 PM
@NikiC I hate when that happens :(
 
@NikiC I don't get why anyone would use that handle, who isn't you…
 
@Jimbo you gluttons finished with your meal yet? Bar is stagnant
 
@tereško this policy is wasteful, because you are not only who know to create a bot. and there is a person that want to teach others
 
@ircmaxell You sure?
@Trowski You sure?
Can you guys try to convince me one more time?
 
@Levi I thought you were an absolute by-ref hater? :o
 
9:41 PM
@LeviMorrison I've thought about it quite a bit, but here's my reasoning
reads being implicit is ok, since it's 100% side-effect free. references have side-effects, and hence should be explicit
 
@bwoebi I hate references, as always :D
 
PHP always copies things by-value, automatically using variables by-ref would be unexpected in my opinion. I've rarely used a variable by-ref in a closure and when I have the closure wasn't short anyway.
 
user895378
Ping me if you think @ircmaxell should get a nerf dart to the head.
 
@Sajad It's not wasteful or useless. It's ethical.
 
@LeviMorrison so, why did you ask? :-D
 
9:42 PM
@bwoebi Because I think it should close over the scope properly, literally referring to the same variable. Not a copy or reference; the same variable.
 
user895378
No takers, eh. Disappointing.
 
This is what happens in practically all languages.
 
@LeviMorrison maybe, but as we know, that's technically not realistic without larger rewrite…
 
Why don't we reference count the scope?
 
@Ghedipunk your mean is teaching "creating a bot" is a bad think?
 
9:43 PM
Is it that big of a rewrite?
 
@LeviMorrison to start, it's all part of execute_data, there's a lot of indirect addressing via execute_data
 
@bwoebi Seems like it needs a rewrite anyway.
:D
 
in case we wan't to do either/or, we need an additional level of indirection for each access
etc.
@LeviMorrison well… no… that's intentional and gives best caching performance
 
Well… I think we've done some silly things for performance reasons.
That might be one of them.
 
@Sajad It's something that is easily abused by people with bad intentions. Whether you have bad intentions or not doesn't matter (if it mattered, it would be about morality). It's a hard and fast rule that, by the time someone learns enough about software development that they can create a web crawler, they've hopefully been around other software developers long enough to have adopted some of their ethics.
 
9:46 PM
Haven't looked enough to know for sure.
 
Don't think this one is silly…
 
@Ghedipunk I understand
 
@NikiC You should report impersonation. support.twitter.com/forms/impersonation
I'm also trying to get @rtheunissen, which is also registered but not used.
 
@rdlowrey bring it little man
@LeviMorrison honestly, while the purity side of me agrees, the pragmatic side disagrees
example, how should this behave:
 
when do we get the music video of @ircmaxell and @rdlowrey frolicking about town to this song?
 
9:54 PM
$cb = [];
for ($i = 0; $i < 10; $i++) {
    $cb[] = function($a) => $a + $i;
}

echo $cb[5](5);
IMHO, copy-by-scope leads to weird behavior
and while taht makes sense (and leads to things like immediately executing closures), it's confusing for people expecting explicit scopes.
the case where you edit a parent scope in a child (closure) does happen, but it's rarer than the read case.
 
@tereško You used of "email" as input name to cheat the bot ?
@ircmaxell a short question: $cb = []; is the same with $cb = array(); ?
 
Since we only allow single exprs in this RFC I don't think either way (by value or reference) is going to be very different.
If you allow multi-line closures then reference is more likely to be useful, but then you can just bind by reference using the long-form since it's a multi-line closure.
 
yeah, agree
 
@rtheunissen why would they be impersonating?
there's no evidence that's the case
 
10:04 PM
@Ghedipunk tnx
 
@Andrea They're not, so it's a weak argument.
 
user895378
@PaulCrovella +1
 
how is this a duplicate when it's specifically for echoing:
-3
Q: What is the difference between a . and a , in a php echo of variables?

3.14159265358...In PHP how do you know if you should use each form of echo, and what is the proper uses for each: with the period: echo"<div> <img src='".$row['image']."'> ".$row['text']." </div> with the comma: echo"<div> <img src='",$row['image'],"'> ",$row['text']," </div> ...

 
@3.14159265358... Because the comma syntax only works like that for echo.
Please read the first answer in the dupe.
 
it asks about it in general
 
10:09 PM
Echo is a language construct, not a function, so it gets special behavior and parsing rules.
There is no "in general."
The comma syntax is exclusive to echo.
 
Would it make sense for an interface method to specify a default value for an optional parameter?
 
they also mention nothing about how it gets applied to the screen output
 
@3.14159265358... Moot point as there is no difference in output between comma echo and concat.
 
then why does content sometimes get applied to the end, when you put it in the middle of the echo?
 
Because you're doing something wrong.
 
10:11 PM
not really, if it gets ran
 
Maybe you're calling a function in the middle of your echo that happens to directly output something instead of returning it? That's a common case for the symptom you just described.
 
wait, you're arguing that your question isn't a duplicate of the other one because the other one doesn't cover something you didn't ask about?
 
In that specific case, the function that directly outputs something will output that thing before the echo outputs what it has, so it'll appear out of order.
^^ that also
 
yes, i searched on google
the other question is a general of the difference between . and , i'm asking about a use case
 
Right, time for bold all caps.
THERE IS NO OTHER USE CASE FOR USING THE COMMA AS AN OPERATOR WHEN EMITTING CONTENT, AS IT IS ONLY USED AS PART OF THE ECHO CONSTRUCT
It's just an alternate way to string together content instead of doing a string concat.
That's it.
There's nothing else to it.
 
10:16 PM
@3.14159265358... The only time that "." and "," could ever behave exactly the same is in an echo statement... Thus, the only time there could ever be any SO questions over what the difference between "." and "," results in a duplicate question of stackoverflow.com/questions/1466408/…
 
I happen to really, really like it, but it drives some other people up the damn wall.
 
so you can't do ,=?
 
you haven't bothered even an attempt at understanding any answer already given, have you
 
Why would you ask that question after reading what has been written here.
I mean.
Seriously.
I'm out. Have a good weekend, folks.
 
> so you can't do ,=?

Could you give us an example in context?
 
10:18 PM
i have done some research, because I was trying to echo a variable the other day to dump stuff, when it needed some { }
 
@3.14159265358... At your command line, type in "php -a"
Then answer your own question.
 
command line?
 
Terminal, cmd, etc.
 
php undefined
 
The program COMMAND.COM that comes with your version of DOS 4.1
Sorry, that's meant to be humorous... came out snarky... wasn't my intention...
 
10:20 PM
The php executable has to be in your PATH
 
@3.14159265358... Do you have PHP configured on the system that you're using right now?
 
hosting service
 
I heartily recommend getting a local development environment running.
 
An alternative (but not really) is to play around on something like phptester.net
 
php isn't a recognized command
 
so when do you use a { } inside an echo
 
@3.14159265358... Install PHP on the same computer that you use when you're writing PHP scripts. It will save you countless time, and using the interactive mode from CLI (the -a flag) will give you immediate feedback, letting you tinker in real time.
 
i have
i never use it, but i have it
 
@3.14159265358... >php isn't a recognized command
 
@3.14159265358... You have to 1) Install PHP, 2) Add php to your PATH if it wasn't done automatically for you. Should take a few minutes. Alternatively just read the answers to the echo question. echo "a", "b" is the same as echo "a"."b" but you can't use the comma syntax anywhere other than with echo.
 
10:28 PM
-a is unrecognized with dos/wamp
are they getting rid of the difference between . and , in 7?
 
Well, my vote is to format C: -y and install a BSD, or at least a Redhat descendant, then install PHP on that... but...
 
i need C
 
Windows won't let you format an active partition, anyways...
 
@3.14159265358... you should be using VM if you want to develop on a windows machine
 
@3.14159265358... No. That is nearly literally asking to remove commas from between function arguments.
 
10:38 PM
How can I specify default values for function parameters internally? Or do I have to do some magic when parsing the parameters?
 
Abe
 
function foo ($bar = "baz") { echo $bar; } foo(); // outputs baz

If that doesn't make it clear, please see the PHP manual.
 
@Ghedipunk internally, implemented in C
 
Well, how would one do it in C, then?
 
@rtheunissen specify the optional params after a pipe | in the param string. Let me find an example
 
10:41 PM
Yup I'm aware of | indicating that all further params are optional.
 
user895378
@PaulCrovella I was actually going to go see TMBG in Brooklyn last weekend then a scheduling conflict arose with one of my other favorite bands, The Decemberists, so I saw that show instead.
 
But what's not clear is how to specify the default values for those, if not handled when parsing the parameters.
 
and just set in in the param before there.
int foo = 5;
Or in the linked case zend_long base = 10;
it doesn't get overwritten if the param is not set.
 
What about... an interface method with a default value. Should I just make sure that I keep things consistent for every implementation of it?
So for every internal implementation, I have to specify zend_long base = 10;?
Couldn't find anything under the arg info macros or in parse parameters. I was just wondering if there was something I'm missing here.
 
10:45 PM
@rtheunissen There's no connection between the declaration of internal functions, and their actual implementation. You're free to do whatever you want.
 
Ahh right yeah makes sense. Thanks
 
@rdlowrey I was going to knock your priorities but can't - the heart wants what the heart wants ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
If you think about it, you'd have to duplicate those default values in PHP as well.
 
can confirm to you that I will be giving my Scalar Type Hints talk using Windows NT 4
the latest and greatest version of Windows, obviously
 
user895378
@PaulCrovella I'm going to pretend that you didn't just obliquely reference Selena Gomez.
 
10:50 PM
I don't know how to reference Selena Gomez, but if it horrifies you I can look it up
 
Abe
o/ room 11
 
@tereško I use the WAMP package
 
@3.14159265358... and I am saying that you shouldn't be using it
 
ascii THRILLER ¯\_¯\_(ツ)
 
is there a WAMP command line?
 
10:52 PM
(ツ)_/¯_/¯ THRILLER NIIIGHT
 
user895378
lol
 
@3.14159265358... There is no "wamp command line" but you can run the PHP executable from the command line.
 
@3.14159265358... It's not just the command line that's different. The vast majority of web servers out there are Linux. There are specific architectural differences between Windows and Linux, the most obvious of which is the file structure, among MANY others, and it makes sense to develop and test code using systems that are as close to your production environment as possible.
 
Find your php.exe
cd to that directory, and run "php.exe -a"
What @Ghedipunk said. I would quit if I have to go back to Windows.
^ If VM's didn't exist.
 
10:56 PM
Worst case scenario, set up a virtual machine running Linux and use that as your local development environment. Personally, I'm very happy to be running Linux on my main computer, and only have a Windows computer because I love games.
 
if the adobe suite ran on linux it'd be so much easier to ditch windows
 
Of course, advice from strangers on the Internet can be freely ignored. There is real value in doing things the hard way, if not than to just learn how hard the hard way really is when you switch over to the recommended way.
 
OS X is the best of both worlds.
 
@rtheunissen That's a whole 'nother religious war. :P
 
i revised the question to include a {}
 
10:58 PM
for some really strange definition of "best", sure
 
I didn't mean to start anything hehe
 
morning
 
user895378
@PaulCrovella this exactly. photoshop/illustrator is the only thing that keeps me dual booting.
 
@PaulCrovella Now now, FreeBSD is the best operating system... It's not for me to judge if anyone wants to pay $4000 for $2000 of hardware and shiny OSX graphics painted on top of freeware...
 
i remember something last eek about {}
 
11:00 PM
I spend most of my time in remote shells anyway.
 
I mean, you are getting a great computer... $2000 worth of hardware does make for a solid system... ;-)
 
i can't afford it yet
 
A shame Apple doesn't keep up on the FreeBSD security updates, though...
 
I wouldn't deploy to os x, but it's a lot closer to linux than it is to windows when it comes to development.
 
If redhat has taught me anything it's that people are happy to pay extra to stay out of date.
4
 
11:03 PM
CentOS is still using PHP 5.4 in its public repo...
And an old release of 5.4 at that... Their FAQ says that they think their users want a stable platform... but how stable is an old release of an end-of-lifed interpretter?
 
Stable. I'm pretty sure they backport security fixes from supported versions of PHP.
And 5.5 was only released on 20 Jun 2013. For people who did an initial deployment of an application in April 2013, and then went for a full product launch 6 months later, that application is only two years old. It's really hard justifying going through a whole release process just to upgrade to a slightly shinier version of PHP.
 
CentOS 7 provides PHP 5.4.16... Last release of PHP 5.4 was 5.4.45... They're missing several security updates.
I'd be fine with them just now getting around to looking at providing 5.5 or 5.6... but they should at least keep up with the 5.4 security releases.
 
me to a manager I had just a few years ago: "You know, {this whole slew of bugs} would go away if we'd update our JRE to anything newer than 1.4."
response: crickets
 
Hopefully they are backporting security releases in and just aren't updating the version number... but then yum won't recognize that there are updates available...
 
some places just can't be arsed to update anything, consequences be damned
 
Anonymous
11:16 PM
I see CentOs release lags as a positive thing.
 
Sorry, is a rant of mine... I like that soapbox. I'm sure they're really doing the best that is possible to keep the security of their distro up to date... I was just about to say, if I could get paid to maintain a distro, I'd keep the packages updated with the latest versions... but then I realized just how much work it would be just to maintain my own system if I had to recompile every update from source, smoke test, run through a QA process, do a quick beta among security pros...
 
@Ghedipunk which is why people don't stick to the default yum repos
 

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