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9:00 PM
@ircmaxell that's all good, but when are we gonna have static classes inside classes? :D
 
@ziGi when are you going to write the RFC?
 
haha, damn, that was a good comeback
 
:-)
 
I have to learn to write RFC one day
 
someone else can pick up the implementation, but determining how it should work, detailing it out, etc...
 
9:02 PM
@ziGi You have here half a room full of people correcting your RFC until it fits when necessary^^
 
@ircmaxell wait. so $obj = new class {}; creates just an instantiable, while new class(){} creates an instance of said instantiable?
 
no
 
@bwoebi is there a tutorial on how it should be written and where it should be posted?
 
[I mean, you get feedback in here… If the RFC pleases the people in here, you'll end up with a good RFC…]
 
new $obj takes the class from $obj and instantiates iot
 
9:03 PM
@ziGi in wiki.
 
@Worf the constructor is run twice
the () is optional, always has been
 
i'm sorry but isn't that a bit of a mess
 
@bwoebi can you supply me with a link, I can't seem to find it
 
@Worf argh
 
9:06 PM
 
dammit closures
I'll revert that change
 
@bwoebi great mate, thanks
 
@NikiC or just make an exception for Closures?
 
$x = class{ function __construct(ArrayObject $a){};
new $x(new ArrayObject);

new (class{ function __construct(ArrayObject $a){} })(new ArrayObject);

@ircmaxell
 
@bwoebi maybe
 
9:08 PM
huh?
I think writing self in a closure is a bad idea
 
@ircmaxell How would you then access class (static) properties?
 
by writing the class name (again)
 
@ircmaxell it's a bit confusing. just this. new class{} should only return a string (the hash of the anonclass), while new class(){} must return an object
 
@Worf new class always returns an object, regardless how you write it
 
@ircmaxell As long as you always bind it to one specific class and not to multiple classes having the same interface
 
9:10 PM
@NikiC he's saying create anonymous classes where you can omit the "new" keyword
 
@NikiC yes or an instance having __toString()
 
@bwoebi interfaces and statics are a no-no
 
@ircmaxell this is explicitly not supported
 
@ircmaxell well, you're right. I usually never write that shitty code… so didn't think about it^^
 
@NikiC I know, I'm saying that's what he wants
 
9:12 PM
so we have the freedom to introduce this later in whichever way we want - e.g. have some kind of class object
 
1. Get rid of references
2. Get rid of variable-variable shenanigans
3. Get rid of static class stuff
4. Get rid of weird weak casting rules

Do those 4 things, and you'd have a pretty decent language
 
i'm sorry for my lack of communication skills xD i was trying to say, the "anonymous" equivalent of:
$class = "ArrayObject";
$instance = new $class();
 
@ircmaxell what is the problem with variable-variable?
 
@Worf @bwoebi So this was already misbehaving with self::class - which would not work in a closure
 
maybe I'll write an RFC for inner classes
 
9:14 PM
@NikiC make a runtime bound version of ::class, like that one guy asked for on internals :-)
 
I may indeed add an exception for closures and add support for that - I think we already have the necessary opcode to do this at runtime
 
actually Joe made one :D
 
Guys
I need help
 
will you sing to us
 
Yes
But only after you hlep :*
 
9:16 PM
are you an expert in infosec?
 
Sorry, we only help InfoSec Taylor Swift.
Damn, beat!
 
:-P
 
But I'm Taylor Swift...
Please help taylor swift...
 
@Charles so apparently InfosecTaylorSwift follows me... she retweeted a few things of mine. which is kinda awesome
 
haha promise you won't break with your boyfriend again if we do
 
9:17 PM
I promoise I won't break up
 
@ircmaxell You're becoming a miniceleb. Be afraid.
 
Please guys helpppp
 
@TaylorSwift Would you just explain your problem?
Seriously, just coming in here and yelling HALP MEH isn't gonna make people help you.
 
@Charles Can I link to the stackoverflow page?
 
@Charles I am very afraid
 
9:18 PM
@Charles yeah, I told my brother I know the people that are developing the PHP language and he was impressed :D
8
 
echo "I have to perform for my fans tonight";
 
Taylor, if you are so rich, why do you write your own code?
 
@TaylorSwift that question is not good for StackOverflow
 
@ziGi People are more impressed when one tells them to be developing on the language… ^^
 
@ziGi Good question... I feel like people should learn in this world
 
@Worf hehe, I don't have PHP 7 here :)
 
@ircmaxell What do you mean?
 
user895378
@ziGi I'm just stopping by the desk for a moment, what's up?
 
@rdlowrey I think Levi already solved it
 
@bwoebi nah, everyone knows that those people are hairy little goblins, sitting in the dark writing code :P
 
user895378
9:21 PM
cool.
 
@rdlowrey thanks rdlowrey, Levi Helped me
it was something simple
 
@ziGi It's maybe dark outside… but not inside^^
 
> Questions seeking debugging help ("why isn't this code working?") must include the desired behavior, a specific problem or error and the shortest code necessary to reproduce it in the question itself. Questions without a clear problem statement are not useful to other readers. See: How to create a Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable example.
 
@bwoebi to be honest, for programmers it is impressive to hear that someone is developing a language but for the ordinary people it's not much different
 
9:22 PM
@ircmaxell I wasn't asking why the code wasn't working, I just wanted to know how I can do better to make it work. I know why its not working
 
user895378
lol I'm so proud of the internet reading this:
 
user895378
6 mins ago, by ircmaxell
are you an expert in infosec?
 
@ziGi yeah… we're all really just programmers.
 
Hey anyone around here is using OctoberCMS ? I am toying with it and i am liking the proposal so far
 
@bwoebi well, I don't think it's true, you people are more of architects since you develop the architecture of a language
 
9:24 PM
@ziGi we're just programmers, anyone can do this. Should is another question
 
later folks, going to watch some tv :D
 
@ziGi It needs some initiative which enough people wouldn't take… But ultimately anyone can do it.
 
@ircmaxell yeah but you consider the overall structure and repercussions when adding changes so in a way you are a bit different
it's not as easy at you make it sound
@bwoebi I agree
 
@ziGi every developer should be doing that with all of their software
 
@ircmaxell I agree, but unfortunately it's not always the case, that's why there are sometimes disputes around some subjects
 
9:26 PM
developing a programming language is no different than developing a library. There's slightly more at stake, but ultimately it's the same skills
 
@Worf the fun part is if you shrink the table.
 
@ircmaxell I guess you do more extensive testing
 
@ircmaxell slightly … well. It all depends on scale. The hard things is to have: nice API, nice perf, nice docs.
 
@rdlowrey I'm glad you liked that :-P
 
@hakre lol, i didn't even notice :D
 
9:28 PM
Unfortunately Joe has made an RFC that I want to make but he withdrew it
 
@ziGi uh, PHP isn't really that well tested… it only has a lot of tiny integration tests.
 
@bwoebi yeah, it's a bit more than slightly, but there are also far more people working on it than a normal library
 
Does that mean I shouldn't make it
 
@bwoebi and a pretty big installation base.
 
@ziGi That means, you should first read up why it was withdrawn.
 
9:29 PM
@ziGi talk to him about it
@JoeWatkins yo ho!
 
We are not there yet …
that's the reason under Withdrawn
but that's one and a half year ago
 
Was that during his temporary ragequit?
 
WTF are nested classes?
 
bested?
 
@VeeeneX they're even better than normal classes?
 
9:31 PM
typo
 
@VeeeneX nested
classes which are wrapped inside another class
 
And why?
 
$bestedClass = $normalClass++
 
it's interesting for example that wiki.php.net/rfc/anonymous_classes the anonymous classes which are related to the nested ones were voted on and accepted
 
@ircmaxell :D
 
9:32 PM
or does bested mean that it was bested, in which case $bestedClass = $normalClass--
 
hah
 
@ziGi look at the authors
 
I think bested is like $bestedClass = ++$normalClass++;
 
anonymous classes are Joe + Phil
I am sure Phil is member of anonymous, that's why the RFC was accepted
anonymous classes => anonymous + illuminati confirmed
 
no, more that Phil did the politics so Joe didn't have to
 
9:34 PM
This rfc is way better wiki.php.net/rfc/short_closures
 
@JoeWatkins why do you think it's too early for nested classes -> wiki.php.net/rfc/nested_classes
@ircmaxell politics are important after all
 
yes
I like to brute force them :-P
 
I think this is missing in php call_user_func_array("Home->welcome",["Joe"]);
 
9:53 PM
@bwoebi another case where incorrect self:: is assumed: The self::const inlining will inline the wrong constants for rebound closures
being able to change what "self" refers to is so very very ugly
 
What is better practise to use getenv() or super globals?
 
Or neither?
 
Yes! That's the question!
or answer
:D
 
If you are using superglobals somewhere deeper in your application than the top levelish you are going to have a bad time mkay
 
Why?
 
10:03 PM
@VeeeneX Automated testing + superglobals = PAIN
 
Ouuu, now I understand, thanks
 
Also, they force tight coupling to a data source.
 
@PeeHaa so where do you suggest to keep the password for the DB?
 
@ziGi In an array?
 
ugh
 
10:06 PM
?
 
and God forbid you push it with your commit
 
It's called a .gitignore file. You should try it out :P
 
so you don't commit your config and people don't know why when they pull the code it doesn't work and what has to be configured?
is that what you are suggesting
educate thyself a bit
 
Does every developer publish their app config file onto git at one point in their life?
 
10:09 PM
@PeeHaa so we have your pass in there?
 
Y'know... the one filled with passwords
 
@ziGi Yes you have password in there
 
I think it's better if you have getenv() instead, that way you have a clear way of seeing what env vars have to be set up-ed and you don't have to edit the environment
 
@ziGi There is no advantage at all when doing that as opposed to what I di
 
there is
 
when you do updates on your code, you don't have to reconfigure config files
 
Nope you would have to reconfigure the environment variables
 
yeah but the thing is you don't have to edit code
you can directly deploy it
 
No you cannot
Either way things have to be changed when things change
 
or an integration environment can do it for you
 
10:13 PM
Either way
 
PeeHaa I love your readme's github.com/PeeHaa/PitchBlade
 
@PeeHaa yeah, but in my case you don't touch the code base
 
I don't touch the "code base" either
I change a config file
In PHP
meaning everybody can change it
In any environment
 
ok
doesn't matter really
 
@VeeeneX :P old crap is crap
 
10:15 PM
who did the Design for OpGUI
 
That obvious I didn't do it myself :P
 
But it looks solid :D
 
he ^ did
 
cool cool
 
For which I am very very thankful :)
This room should be merged with html/css/webdesign room so we don't create crap designed stuff and they dont'write crap code :P
 
10:20 PM
hah
 
Popped in to see if anyone else ever noticed that the composer logo is not, in point of fact, a composer at all, but rather a conductor -- otherwise known as an end-user.
 
What would an composer look like? :P
And yeah I noticed :)
 
Someone with less attention paid to personal hygiene
 
hehehe
 
10:22 PM
@PeeHaa you definitely need an update of your color scheme of your webpage. It's quite depressing with that black and gray. Looks like a funeral home page
 
@ziGi Yeah. My own site is fucking horrible :(
I am thinking about rewriting the thing again
 
but you have nice code written so it's all good, I have nothing for example :(
shit why don't I have anything
 
Tbf my open source contributions have gone done a lot, because I have been busy. Which kinda sucks.
 
@ChrisBaker yeah, I was gonna say that the guy is an opera conductor since he
 
Funeral home page? Pfft. If there's anything you can be sure of about a funeral home, it's that the page will not look aesthetically pleasing by any standard, ever. PeeHaa's page is minimalist, which is an aesthetic. It might not be a visually pleasing aesthetic, but it's valid.
 
10:26 PM
minimalist. Yeeeah lets call it that :D
works for me ™
 
Woah. I went to pull up exhibit A, my local funeral home, and I see they redid their site within the last month. And... against all odds, it actually looks pretty good :p
(better than PeeHaa's site)
 
:)
linky?
 
Responsive and everything, look at em go
 
sorry to say it PeeHaa but your site is worse than a funeral home site
 
It even has kittens!
Although for some reason I read it as preyfuneral :P
 
10:28 PM
lol, same difference
I think the hover effect on the pictures of your dead loved ones is a little over-the-top
It looks like they're coming for retribution from beyond the grave.
 
why are all the people smiling?
it's a bit creepy
 
@ChrisBaker Yeah that's somewhat "living dead"
 
lol
 
let's cavort in the grass on top of her grave
 
10:31 PM
haha, that's the family that owns the funeral home. Your loved one's death has made them a small fortune, with which all of the people pictured have secured bright, college-educated futures
 
Yeah grave digging is a proper lucrative job
 
they can just go to Germany or Sweden and get educated for free instead of paying high tuitions in the states
 
Bernie Sanders 2016!
Anyway, I was just wasting 30 minutes till I could leave this place. Thanks for time-wasting with me guys, g'night :) :) <3
 
Later @ChrisBaker
 
guys, can you give good explanation why if you have a few products for an order, it's a bad idea to json_encode the products and save them as a string in a field in the order table inside a RDBMS
 
10:34 PM
@ziGi mysql?
 
yeah
I am trying to explain to @StephenWolfe that it's a bad idea
 
I want to find out how many time product 12345 is sold in the last month
Good luck querying that in mysql
@StephenWolfe ^
 
yeah
that's one of my concerns
problems querrying
etc.
 
@PeeHaa well i was going to use a mix of both.
 
Don't
 
10:36 PM
I wanted the string to save things like the name and price of the product at that time
 
That makes sense
 
I don't think it does
 
Although perhaps better to store in normalized in a separate table
 
yes
event sourcing for products table
 
Once you store serialized data you cannot use it anymore without unserializing it
Which will kick you in the nuts rather sooner then later
 
10:38 PM
yes, better use a combination of RDBMS and NoSQL Db
 
Or use postgres :P
 
usually people that deal with CQRS use plane denormalized data for reads
because it's much faster and people usually read more than they insert/update
 
Okay so I should just create an order_items table with values like, 'id','prodid','name','price','qty'
 
Store whatever data you are going to need
 
Okay too many abbreviations I only know RDBMS
 
10:40 PM
haha sorry Stephen
 
I have read up on noSQL before,
 
but I think you learned so much information today that I had to learn in the period of a few months because there wasn't anyone to explain it to me
 
thats just where you might store important information in a table....
so you can fetch quicker
@ziGi cant thank you enough.
 
@StephenWolfe it's not about the importance but about the fact that it's denormalized without a schema so it's more or less pre-processed
so when you output it to the front-end you don't have to do much
this makes it much more scalable
 
thats what i was saying with out the big words lol
 
10:42 PM
haha true
they are not big words, they have a meaning
denormalized means that it is already combined from a few tables into one table
 
Well i can assume the denormalized is the oppersite of normalized
:D
 
pre-processed means that you don't have to convert dates etc. but they are already converted
making it more scalable means that when more people would start using it at the same time and the load increases, your software will easily allow for fast processing with an addition of hardware without exponential speed degradation
 
yea so in my sentance the important information bit was me talking about storing relevant data in a single table rather than it being split up and normalised. Want the second part was its quicker ... like perprocessed data
 
haha well I am not sure how scientific I am currently but the idea is that when 5 monkeys start using it, the performance won't drop that fast
yeah
but don't do it for the moment like that
just keep the products in one table
orders in another
and make a junction table with product_id column and order_id column
 
So build normal RDBMS
 
10:46 PM
and related products to orders
yeah
so for example when you need the products for order 5, you select records from the junction table where order_id=5 and left join product table on product_id
 
At least then I can answer this question if i do it the RDBMS way.... "6. What features would your design need to scale?"
I can say NoSQL :D
 
yeah
well technically if the project is small you can only suffice with a RDBMS
you don't have to worry about all this magic I am talking about
haha
 
Well I am planning on working with big data
so got to learn
 
what are you going to do exactly with big data
 
I want to work in banking :D
 
10:53 PM
isn't it boring
 
I dont know
not done it
But I want to learn about it
tbh i dont want to write code all my life :D rather come up with the ideas.
 
when I started working for a financial company where I am currently
I thought it is really interesting
but there is so much legacy code that needs refactoring that I lose interest from time to time
 
Yeah I dont want to work on that
lol
 
and I have to deal with chinese botnets trying to flood the servers as well cause we don't have a sysadmin
but overall the job is interesting
 
@ziGi Not having a sysadmin sucks :(
 
10:56 PM
yeah
 
Why dont they?
 
hey, peehaa do you go to meetups
@StephenWolfe not enough work for sysadmin
 
Not very often
 
I clock like a few hours a month
 
I am looking at php 010 though
@ziGi Where do you go?
 
10:57 PM
I go to the Sweetlake
and the belgium
and I am in 010 as well
but I have never visited it
 
whats this?
 
there is a meetup next wednesday
 
What sort of meet up?
 
Yeah I was just looking
 
@StephenWolfe check meetup.com
 

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