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5:02 PM
> Today’s leaders need to get a life and encourage those around them to do the same. As one of my twin girls told me: “You can be an entrepreneur for a short time, but you’re a mummy forever.” from theguardian.com/women-in-leadership/women-leadership-blog/2014/…
ZOMG. awesome
a bit kitschy and pathetic, but totally awesome
 
posted on October 30, 2014 by kbironneau

/* by vlknmtn */

 
New password day? NAAAAOOOOOOOOOO!
I hate changing my Windows password. For the next 3 days, it will disrupt my productivity.
We have to lock our computers if we walk away for even a minute, so I'm constantly logging in.
 
@ChrisBaker Sometimes out of necessity, I start services under my profile; then I forget about them and when I change my password they come crashing down.
 
@ChrisBaker suggest buying yubikeys or fingerprint readers
 
5:18 PM
^
 
Morning
 
@tereško Now I can't stop either.
 
I couldn't listen to music that mellow while I'm working. I need something with energy
 
@ChrisBaker I have that album, but prefer this song ;-)
 
All the things
 
5:27 PM
All the things indeed.
 
@ChrisBaker ah, that's great for moshing, but not for programming, I find DnB best for programming
If I listen to metal while programming I get angry and the code get's me even more angry
 
hehe, we close the door to our office a lot. I like to say that our web applications here are made with 50% skills & knowledge, 30% editing production code, and 10% blue air.
The other 10% will be ready in 6 to 8 weeks.
 
what is blue air?
 
8
Q: Why does swearing 'turn the air blue'?

val BearmanWhy do we say that the air is blue when someone has been swearing a lot?

 
hahaha :D
ok I see, and what does closing the office door has to do with it?
 
5:32 PM
We're a nonprofit, public TV station, public radio station. There are people in and out of here all day from all kinds of other nonprofits, charities, etc. It would be... unseemly for some nun from St. Cecilias to hear some bearded wildman shouting profane threats at his dual monitor.
 
So I don't see why would a nun hearing your swearing be problematic?
 
Okay.
 
Maybe cause I work in a company where my boss swears a lot and my colleagues around me and I am used to it :D
 
Or perhaps you do not know what a nun is? It just seems pretty self explanatory why you might feel uncomfortable cursing around one.
 
I do know what it is, but I don't see how does that harm the nun?
 
5:39 PM
$ignore++
 
unset($ignore);
 
@ziGi I guess I shoot for "being respectful" and not just "don't physically harm them" when I deal with people
 
how are you physically harming them if the swears are not aimed towards them
 
@cspray "You're a fucking turd-waffle, but don't worry, I won't punch you"
 
@ziGi For the same reason you shouldn't be swearing around any business partner or client? Forget that it is a nun. Some outside person is in your office that you do business with. You don't see how maybe they shouldn't have to listen to you raging at the computer?
 
5:43 PM
@cspray yes, quite understandable when you put it this way.
Help me understand something. On Halloween when kids say "Trick or treat" does that mean that if you don't treat them they will do a trick on you (maybe egg your house?)
 
What is best practice for authenticating facebook login? If i'm using JS sdk, i take token and verify it via PHP? Everybody can send post request with ID if i'm doing it like that? What do you think?
 
Why do people always call Entities "Models" in frameworks?
Did you guys know that in PHP files you should never use ?> to prevent white space injetion
 
@ziGi Because LOLMVCLOL.
MVC is the worst thing to happen to PHP web frameworks.
 
@ziGi Did you not know? :)
 
So @Charles be a nice lad and elaborate how in your opinion a good framework in PHP should work
@webarto not really brate
 
5:56 PM
@ziGi "M", "V" and "C" are horrible names for the layers needed. You need a persistence layer that provides the entities, business logic to manipulate the entities, logic that acts upon the entities and entity logic, logic that accepts user input and calls the right actor, and logic to take the result given by the actor and return it to the user.
 
ziGi, are you a teenager? Curious.
 
A lot of frameworks muddle together those specific layers.
 
@ChrisBaker not really but people tend to say that to me
 
Like, inappropriate combination of routing logic and accepting user input, or accepting user input and manipulating entities directly, or combining entities, entity logic and persistence into one thing.
 
@Charles those still fall under the broad umbrella of MVC, though, they're just kinda... sublayers?
 
5:58 PM
@Charles good abstraction, I know that Model is a layer, not an Entity but many Frameworks call the Entities Models and recommend putting all the business logic there
 
Hmm. TBH, it probably would have helped if you had said "yes", but thanks for answering.
 
@ChrisBaker I am 24, why so curious? Is my behaviour in any way childish?
 
@KevinMGranger They're only sublayers if you don't spit them out.
i'm perhaps a bit more sensitive to the lack of the split.
The application I work on has both a web interface and an ncurses interface.
Yes, ncurses in PHP. It's hella scary.
We have these hilariously prehistoric linux-powered barcode scanners. They ssh into the server on boot and fire up PHP.
 
haha really :D
 
Anyway, as a result, I've become hypersensitive to attaching too much about the user request into layers deeper than the request itself.
 
6:00 PM
@ziGi Yes. I'm not going to get into it, but yes.
 
It should also be worth noting that developing the "extra" layers also helps free the code from the shackles of any specific framework.
 
That is because I am not letting go, which is more or less considered childish, I know.
@Charles what did you mean by saying "business logic to manipulate the entities, logic that acts upon the entities " aren't those two the same?
To be honest I understand you quite well more or less, but I used to be so confused because when I started I saw that most of the frameworks use anti-patterns that I didn't know were such. So I learned things the wrong way.
 
@ziGi The logic attached to an entity is one thing. Logic that takes the data from an incoming request and actually works with the entities is another thing.
 
I get confounded by what I see in frameworks too. It seems to be at odds with everything I've learned through these guys, reading, and experience. It makes me question myself sometimes, but the truth is that most frameworks are terrible, and not good places to learn best practices.
 
@ChrisBaker All frameworks are terrible. They're just all terrible about different things, in different and fun ways.
 
6:06 PM
I totally agree with you Chris, usually frameworks try to incorporate many things to satisfy everyone and you end up installing something that has too much unnecessary information.
 
I think that's a combination of design by committee and the fact that best practices can sometimes be hard to defend to others unless you understand them COMPLETELY. You might know how to do it yourself, but teaching it to people who are inclined to disagree is another matter. Most likely, contributors to frameworks who know what they're doing get shouted down/bulldozered in favor of existing practices in a given code base.
Start trying to contribute to Drupal... you aren't going to move that entire monolith away from all the crap that has already been written. Also, despite it not being "best", it does work, and that's the most compelling argument of all. Hard to justify tearing up a bunch of code that does what it was intended to do.
 
I had such a case with my colleague. I tried explaining to him that we shouldn't use global data because it hides many things and introduces Spooky Action and he started disagreeing with me by stating that there is no perfect world and if you want to do everything right you have to invest too much time, and also re-factoring. The truth in my opinion is that when he started he didn't understand as well so he tried doing his best which was obviously not the case.
Additionally he tells me that it works so it shouldn't be changed if it does, so basically exactly the same argument
 
@ziGi There is a small amount of truth to this.
 
I do understand but he does not see that because of his "working" version he creates more future work for himself and the rest.
It has something to do with Technical Debt
 
@Charles It is a much bigger truth if your application is untested imo
 
6:12 PM
:D
ours isn't and I started writing tests and I draw a lot of conclusions about how many things are done
 
@cspray Very true. But at the same time, poorly written code is often untestable, so not fixing it can make it much worse...
 
Yea, this is all very true
 
Guys What you think which is the best PHP MVC framework to use??
 
Is it as truthful as a fact is?
^
haha @SatishShinde none
that's what we've been discussing the past 15-20 minutes
 
I am using laravel
Its good
 
6:16 PM
@SatishShinde Look at all of them and pick the one that has the least T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM in it.
 
@SatishShinde Symfony2
 
@Charles haha what a good advice :D
How do you respond to this: "Well, we use singletons but the app runs only to serve the request so why do we need to take care about altering global state?"
 
I used laravel for API development it looks cool to me
 
French cars look cool but break a lot, that's not a good excuse to use it.
 
@ziGi :)
 
6:20 PM
it really depends what you need it for
 
Yes true...
 
The problem with frameworks is that there is too much code written and you don't always need all that code but it is still slowing you down.
 
738
Q: What is so bad about singletons?

Ewan MakepeaceThe singleton pattern is a fully paid up member of the GoF's patterns book, but it lately seems rather orphaned by the developer world. I still use quite a lot of singletons, especially for factory classes, and while you have to be a bit careful about multithreading issues (like any class actuall...

 
@Charles I know, I have read this quite a long time ago and I did send it to him but he still doesn't agree it is a problem because there hasn't been a problem so far. But then the time comes when he keeps request data in a Register and then access it from a Singleton Service Factory and then I try to make a mock for our tests and it fails, and then he starts rewriting everything, but still tells me, hey writing new objects every time is too wasteful and too verbose.
 
@ziGi If you are unable to convince TPTB that sane development practices are a good thing, then you have only two choices: get him out, or get out. I've only seen the former work once, and we got lucky.
 
6:24 PM
Yeah, I am gonna get out, that's the thing I should do anyways
I can't get the lead dev out
 
is it me or news.php.net/php.internals/78477 is kinda... useless?
 
need your thoughts on php API security
What are the things we need to take care
while designing the API strucuture
 
@SatishShinde Documentation is important
 
@SatishShinde reading through the security section of hashphp.org is a good start
 
@Charles you do understand Zend Framework right?
 
6:32 PM
@ziGi What kind of documentation?
 
useless comment... opcache yay
 
@FlorianMargaine yes I do understand
 
@KevinMGranger its very useful doc
 
31
Q: Architecture more suitable for web apps than MVC?

GordonMI've been learning Zend and its MVC application structure for my new job, and found that working with it just bothered me for reasons I couldn't quite put my finger on. Then during the course of my studies I came across articles such as MVC: No Silver Bullet and this podcast on the topic of MVC ...

 
I think for web application 3 tier architecture is best
Front-end
API server/ Application server
database server
 
6:42 PM
@ziGi I played with ZF1 but haven't really touched ZF2. I didn't like the MVC bits in ZF1 at all, but some of the other components were nice to work with. The mail component in specific was pretty good to work with, for IMAP and header manipulation stuff.
 
@Charles oh, I am just asking because I saw something which made me really suspicious and questioning. There is something called Zend_Auth which in theory is an authentication object that keeps session information.
Nonetheless it is a singleton
// Save a reference to the Singleton instance of Zend_Auth
$auth = Zend_Auth::getInstance();

// Use 'someNamespace' instead of 'Zend_Auth'
$auth->setStorage(new Zend_Auth_Storage_Session('someNamespace'));
 
Yeah, if you're reading about ZF stuff and see underscores instead of backslashes, then you're looking at ZF1 stuff. You'll want to go see if there's a ZF2 "Auth" component.
 
oO
 
@Charles is there any concept of queue in zend like laravel framework does
 
Honestly all of the auth stuff in both ZF and Symfony seems backwards and wrong and stupidly over-engineered....
@SatishShinde I don't know what a Laravel queue is, so I can't answer that question directly.
 
6:46 PM
Yeah, but what is even weirder is the fact that the session object class that instanciates it is defined in the config as this: session.class = "App_Session"
 
Do I need to write another "you don't need a framework" post?
 
you have such post?
 
Which means that the class which is instantiated and kept inside the Zend_Auth is taken from the config base on the environment (dev/production/etc.)
and is used to make a single instance which is set inside the Auth singleton
 
@ircmaxell Yes, but you can you do this one with images of people being violently beaten to a pulp when asking about frameworks? They might get the message.
 
6:48 PM
So you do realize what I have to deal with. The TPTB insists on the fact that this is the right way to do it since everyone does it like this...
 
@ziGi If they're still using ZF1 in TYOOL 2014, then that explains much.
 
yes unfortunately
and the worst part is that the project started in 2011
facepalm
 
Ohhhh
 
ZF1 was really the first major not-completely-broken framework out there, but it's still broken and horrible. Way, way better than Cake or CI, but still horrible.
 
Morning
 
6:49 PM
Good afternoon, Room 11.
 
E_MULTIPLE_GREETING
 
@Charles "TYOOL" -- abbreviating a superfluous phrase made me LOL
 
@Charles I used to work with Yii before that so it seemed horrid to me
 
@ChrisBaker Sorry, a meme I picked up from another place where fun is made of stupid code.
 
TYOOL = ?
 
6:51 PM
The Year of Our Lord
 
haha :D
 
hehe :)
 
user652649
hola! @LeviMorrison did you check my latest css update for php.net? also, let me know if you have other bugs to solve, i can help! :D
 
@WesleyCrushed I haven't; what problem was it solving?
 
@WesleyCrushed If have one for you :P
 
user652649
6:52 PM
evening all, just one thing: @php "%~dp0phpunit.phar" %* WTH does that mean? xD
 
user652649
@LeviMorrison wait for it...
 
@ircmaxell is like a knowledge overlord hovering above ignorant young coders and bringing them knowledge. If I have to compare him to a game unit, I would say he's the starcraft unit for limit of the Zergs.
@WesleyCrushed is it the elephants on the bottom?
 
@WesleyCrushed can you fix the scroll position of php.net/manual/en/…
On my machine (win7/chrome) the directive is underneath the header
 
user652649
@LeviMorrison the disappearing title at lower res: i.imgur.com/sM0nLoU.gif
 
user652649
2 days ago, by Wesley Crushed
@LeviMorrison add min-width:250px; to h1.refname{} this should definitely fix any problem related to the page tools and the search field dropdown
 
6:54 PM
@WesleyCrushed move to material. Move to polymer :-)
 
user652649
@ircmaxell ? :P
 
@WesleyCrushed have you seen the table here-> php.net/manual/en/…
 
@DanLugg you're welcome
 
Innocent @WesleyCrushed enters the room; everybody piles on with php.net bugs :P
 
user652649
tables are a pita to make responsive, the best option is to wrap them in a <div style="overflow:auto"></div>
 
user652649
6:56 PM
@PeeHaa can do that, wait
 
@WesleyCrushed Yo also see it happening? (@LeviMorrison didn't see it on his retina thingy)
And he couldn't be bothered :)
 
user652649
yes happens to me as well, it's how is supposed to work
 
user652649
the css fix is easy but i don't know site-wide what problems can cause
 
@WesleyCrushed yeah I think that is a huge problem for everything you do at php.net
:P
 
user652649
the fix is anyway:
 
user652649
7:01 PM
dt[id] {
    padding-top: 52px;
     margin-top: -52px;
}
 
@WesleyCrushed Yeah, this is an issue for some people we can slap a bandaid on, but eventually that piece will change its location ^^
 
user652649
52px is the header's height
 
@PeeHaa Have you checked browser compat?
It works on Chrome on Mac; that's about all I can see ^^
 
@LeviMorrison Nobody uses a mac :P
 
^^
It's the best commercially supported Unix OS for desktops and laptops I can find, so...
 
7:03 PM
Proprietary sofwtare FTW!
 
@LeviMorrison works on Chrome on Linux
 
ahaha
But The Framework Developers Are Smarter Than You!
 
@ircmaxell /cc @PeeHaa
 
sigh let me also check ie and ff
 
user652649
@PeeHaa i bet they will do the same
 
7:05 PM
Let's play FF version roulette! Update in 3... 2... 1...
lol IE crashes on startup :P
 
I have noticed that WordPress like platforms allow for stupid people that don't understand almost nothing from programming to claim having years of experience in PHP development and being proud of it
And then they come and tell you, I can't change my FTP password.
First of all, who uses FTP for putting their framework on a server.
Second of all, learn some shell commands...
 
Fun fact: FF does it correctly, but IE also fucks up
 
how long does it take to learn PHP for someone who learns fast?
 
@IPAddress 6-8 weeks
 
@IPAddress How many other programming languages do you know? Which ones?
 
7:09 PM
html,html5,css,css3,javascript,and some jquery
 
@IPAddress Only one of those is a programming language.
 
javascript
jquery is a framework
 
lol
@Charles I wanted to do a joke, but @IPAddress was too fast :P
 
jquery is a framework, all frameworks are bad, therefore jquery is bad, q.e.d.
*ahem*
 
its more fun working out how a framework works with javascript in my opininion
opinion*
 
7:11 PM
@Charles Do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and Savior jQuery?
 
@LeviMorrison PrototypeJS forever!!
 
Undersore.JS!
 
@IPAddress Anyway, it depends. PHP is really easy to pick up, but it's really easy to shoot yourself in the foot with it early on. It will take literally years to stop shooting yourself in the foot. If you're interested in becoming a better developer, go learn something else first. Try python.
 
@charles in the foot????
 
user652649
it's surely fixed by a script because i don't think that is the default behavior @PeeHaa
 
user652649
7:14 PM
so the script is only partially working
 
@IPAddress Repeatedly. Sometimes you'll miss your foot and hit your brain instead. Just warning you.
 
@WesleyCrushed The fact it does work on ff you mean?
 
meaning its hard?
 
user652649
@PeeHaa yup
 
user652649
it works on msie too, but occasionally
 
7:15 PM
defuck
 
@Charles MooTools FTW
 
@IPAddress Meaning that unless you are already an experienced server-side developer, you will make lots of bad mistakes.
 
ahh
 
Never works for me in IE
 
@ircmaxell My boss totally lost it when I told him that there was a library called MooTools. He was entirely unprepared for it.
 
7:16 PM
@charles what languages do you know?
@charles lol
 
lol
I actually really liked MooTools, especially when I had no idea how the prototype worked in JS
 
@IPAddress JS, PHP, Perl, a bit of Python, a bit of C, a bit of Java, a bit of C#, enough C++ to know that I'm afraid of it, enough bash to know I hate it, enough Ruby to know it's not my thing.
 
@ircmaxell how do you use Zend as a set of libraries in your applications. Is it possible to use parts of it if the general Zend application is not instantiated?
 
Douglas Crockford advocating a class free object language
 
@charles do you work?
 
7:19 PM
^^ That's something we don't need.
 
@ircmaxell Yeah, wrapping my head around prototypes pretty much broke my brain for a while...
 
^
 
@ziGi If you call ZF "Zend" again I will end you just like I ended the tag.
 
why don't we just revert to files with functions that we include
@Charles yes I do call ZF Zend, excuse me
 
@IPAddress Nope, I'm broken.
 
7:21 PM
well who was the smart ass that decided the two should have the same name
there is also a Zend Studio
 
@ziGi Zend is a company.
 
user652649
is it possible to have a working copy of php.net's layout for me? it's a repository, right? @PeeHaa
 
@charles so python should be learnt (server-side) before PHP to become a better developer?
 
Yes, are they the ones developing PHP because I remember I read that somewhere
 
@WesleyCrushed Yes it is. Not sure what black magic is needed though. @LeviMorrison should be able to tell you whether it is doable in a sane way
 
7:23 PM
I think someone committed everything needed for a working local install, so you can just check out the git repository.
The content won't be up to date, but all the code will be.
 
@IPAddress Well, that's what I'd personally advise, but others may disagree. Learning more languages, especially ones that are very different, is a good thing.
 
But basically check out the repository and then see php.net/mirroring.php for the Apache stuff.
 
@charles thanks for your help :)
 
@ircmaxell When I started here, these guys were super jQuery fanboys. I detest cult programming, so I purposely chose Mootools.
I liked it a lot, but eventually I gave in and started using jQuery, now TBH Mootools annoys me
new Class({ --- buuuh
 
Any viral marketer who doesn't think "going biological" is a thing needs to visit my refrigerator.
 
7:31 PM
@Charles Hmm, I would have said "Learn the rudiments of C"
Not only does that give you a foundation for tons of other languages, but when you're first getting started and you finally get the environment set up and a compiling, working program, you feel like a boss.
 
@ChrisBaker I'd only recommend that for people entirely new to coding. And even then, honestly, I'd even go as far as recommending something mock-assembly like the Little Man Computer.
Once you learn a dynamic language first, the damage has been done.
 
In my experience most people who are good at C suck at PHP
 
s/who are good at C//
2
 
s/at PHP//
2
 
I would also suggest not working with C long enough to be "good" at it.
 
7:34 PM
Stop harassing meh sentence :(
 
@PeeHaa Stop being wrong on the internet
 
:D
 
s/people/vacuum cleaners/
I'm an optimist, and a people person :p
 
user652649
@LeviMorrison i think i sorted out the scrolling to anchor problem. did you write common.js ?
 
@WesleyCrushed It's kind of existed for a long time, getting modified a lot by a lot of people.
Nobody really wrote it at this point ^^
 
7:56 PM
Hopefully this doesn't turn into a trollfest mail-archive.com/internals@lists.php.net/msg70818.html
"I will lay you a bet that if the RFC reaches a vote with the intention to remove superglobals in tact, it will not pass." ... such a needless remark in what I hoped would be a productive discussion... why even bother to reply if that's all you have to say?
 
user652649
@LeviMorrison at line 386 in common.js replace this:

$('a[href^=#]').click(function(e) {
e.preventDefault();
scroll($.attr(this, 'href'), 400);
return false;
});

with this http://pastebin.com/rt4whqGn
 
user652649
it should work
 
user652649
let me know if it breaks something, i'm around at any hour in the html room (i don't have a life)
 
user652649
@PeeHaa it doesn't always work because some mirrors serve the url as href="#anchor", others instead use href="self-page.php#anchor", which are not getting selected by $('a[href^=#]')
 
8:16 PM
@WesleyCrushed So it is mirror dependent instead of browser?
 
user652649
@LeviMorrison wait, above pastebin is broken ^^ :D
 
user652649
pastebin.com/4Zb0H7r2 now should be ok :P
 
user652649
@PeeHaa that must be it, yes
 
@ziGi I have heard that lie so many times and still it makes me wonder - how people can believe that crap
 
feeling insecure about themselves, idk
 
8:26 PM
 
@Jimbo monring
 
8:39 PM
Gotta jet, have a good night
 
later @ChrisBaker
 
blah
 
Evening
 
Aaaaaaaaaand travis is slow again :(
 
@PeeHaa I raise the BS flag
 
8:53 PM
Hello
 
I also doubt it will get it all, but for the obvious ones it seems to work
 
What is SpagoBI
 
Why do you ask us? :P
 
@PeeHaa I don't care about what it finds that's valid. I want to know its false positive rate
 
@PeeHaa because I am a php guy and my client asked me to set it up on server
 
8:55 PM
because every one I've seen has had a false positive rate way too high to be taken remotely seriously
 
@Shabir Is SpagoBI somehow related to php, because this is the first time I ever heard about it
 
Does no one use Taint?
 
@ircmaxell Yeah, I can see that happening
 
Its a sort on Business Intelligence tool.. and it runs on tomcat
 
@Sherif no
@Shabir So not related to php?
 
8:57 PM
yes, just came to know..
 
one platform I checked raised over 400,000 issues. We (a team) went through all of the critical and high ones (over 20,000 of them) and found 0 were actually valid. Talk about wasting a week of time (or more like over a man-month)
 
You guys were certainly thorough if you went through 20,000 of them before giving up on it :)
 

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