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6:00 PM
I'm not really talking about the RC, if it's too late for that then it's too late for that ... but it's not too late to do something about master and the next RC ...
 
So how do we feel about TYPE_ARRAY vs KIND_ARRAY one week later?
/cc @NikiC @AndreaFaulds @Danack @DanLugg @ircmaxell @bwoebi @rdlowrey
 
'Kind' is still weird.
 
what's wrong with ReflectionType::ARRAY ?
 
@LeviMorrison +1 on TYPE_ARRAY.
 
user895378
I still don't like KIND ...
 
6:03 PM
@JoeWatkins array is a reserved word, so it'd need a special-case in the parser
 
@JoeWatkins You can't use keywords as constants ^^
 
@JoeWatkins the parser doesn't like it
 
@JoeWatkins Something something parser something something reserved
 
user895378
Also, @JoeWatkins, we have websockety phpdbg goodness happening right now :)
 
Temporary tables w/ PDO: best to set them up with separate calls to exec, or to build the setup into one string?
 
6:04 PM
@rdlowrey @JoeWatkins people are using it… so don't try to remove ;-)
 
@LeviMorrison Are they still going to be ReflectionType class constants?
 
@DanLugg Yeah. I don't want to deviate too far for this.
 
user895378
@JoeWatkins Yeah ... what Bob said!
 
If we need compat later we can make the constants match values.
 
TYPE_ then ...
 
6:05 PM
@Chris I think just one exec. They're going to be pretty constant, and shouldn't ever fail, so it's not like you'll need to debug them individually.
 
Okay, and what to name getKind()?
I don't really like $ReflectionType->getType() == ReflectionType::TYPE_ARRAY but I'm open to consider it.
 
@LeviMorrison I'm referring to global vs. class constants; however this is for my ulterior motive of consolidating TYPE_*, ENCODING_* etc., into global constants.
 
@Danack Think using # or ## prefix is a good idea here? I'm also wondering whether I should drop them after using them, or let mysql clean up
 
@DanLugg Right; if we need globals later we can make the values match and therefore be interchangeable.
 
@Chris I don't know what you mean by # prefix - I just normally prefix them with 'temp'. I'm guessing dropping them explicitly would be better, if your connection doesn't get closed for a while, they could hang around.
 
6:08 PM
@rdlowrey @bwoebi I realize that, and realize phpstorm are using it, but this doesn't belong in php-src right now ... phpstorm and daniel can still develop it in an experimental php-src branch or a branch of krakjoe/phpdbg ... I don't think it's wise to ignore the general consensus that we need to do something about it ...
 
@LeviMorrison What is it you don't like here? The usage of "type" 4 times?
 
@DanLugg Yeah, and getType() will likely exist on ReflectionParameter but will return ReflectionType, not a ReflectionType::TYPE_* constant.
 
user895378
@JoeWatkins Are you talking about removing phpdbg from php-src or rolling back the XML things?
 
rolling back the xml things, it needs to be done the internals way ...
 
user895378
God damn it. Whatever.
 
6:10 PM
The internals way is to do whatever you want and then commit it, I'm pretty sure.
And then argue later.
That's what happened, right?
All good.
Maybe getTypeConstant()? /cc @DanLugg @NikiC @bwoebi
 
Ahh, the ole' "a commit in the hand is worth two arguments in the bush" -- or whatever.
 
user895378
@JoeWatkins Well, as long as the XML branch exists somewhere so we can develop against it it'll be pretty hard to argue against a live web application that says, "LOOK HOW AWESOME THIS IS YOU IDIOTS. APPROVE THESE CHANGES."
 
@LeviMorrison I was thinking that (or, oddly getTypeKind came to mind, lol)
 
I dunno. We have so many types getting thrown around, which is why I tried to use kind.
 
But, that's tough -- it's getting a bit ambiguous.
 
6:12 PM
@Danack Damned if I can find the dox, but I guess I am under the impression that # and ## prefixes indicate the lifetime of the table and provide guidance on when mysql should automatically remove them. Meh.
 
@rdlowrey ofc, I'm not saying scrap the work, I'm saying develop it somewhere other than php-src release or development branches, because that is what everyone wants ...
 
@Chris #: awhile, ##: a bit longer of awhile
 
@Chris I've got a feeling that's SQLServer syntax.
 
@DanLugg Legit
 
user895378
@JoeWatkins totally agree.
 
user895378
6:13 PM
But at this point the XML work is essentially done, right? So there's not really any more development work to be done.
 
user895378
 
@rdlowrey I think the discussion needs to be had before we can decide that ...
 
@rdlowrey hehe
 
user895378
^ All that's left now is to have someone with javascript-and-css-fu make a nice GUI for it.
 
CREATE TABLE ¯\_(ツ)_/¯IDoWhatIWant -- will be dropped when Mysql Server acquires new fucks to give.
 
haven't been able to work on it...
 
@rdlowrey Hey! Read your mail!
 
user895378
@DanLugg my mail?
 
his mail?
 
6:16 PM
 
user895378
oh, lol
 
user895378
yeah.
 
:-P
 
5 unread is not that horrible.
 
Last I knew my boss had about 42k unread
 
6:18 PM
mostly spam
 
From us too. Alerts and notfications.
 
user895378
@FlorianMargaine As long as you make your javascript API sensible I can use it in my thing too :)
 
user895378
My frontend skills are non-existent and I plan to keep it that way.
 
user895378
I just need javascript into which I can dump the phpdbg xml output.
 
You drink much coffee @rdlowrey?
 
6:20 PM
you'll have to adopt a bit of my tooling though
I'll try to do something for you
 
@bwoebi think about what we should do ... we should do something ...
 
user895378
@Fabien I haven't had a single cup of coffee since 2005 when I resolved not to drink it anymore because I was housing like ten cups a day. Now I just use horse-caffeine pre-workout drink mix when I need a boost.
 
Fair enough. Thinking about giving up myself. I do like the taste of coffee but I worry about staining my teeth.
 
I don't drink coffee
 
I'm doing a home whitening kit atm.
 
6:22 PM
I smoke tho
 
What about tea?
 
@Fabien I drink pots and pots of coffee, all day, right until I go to bed.
 
user895378
@Fabien I don't avoid it, but I don't have it very often either.
 
neither
I'm a weird guy
no alcohol either
 
user895378
I'm out on coffee, but very much in on caffeine in all it's wonderful and varied forms :)
 
6:24 PM
We just had a local coffee roaster donate a machine, and they drop off freshly roasted & ground coffee every two days.
mmmmmmm!
 
> At home, simple things such as brushing your teeth regularly can help. Brushing twice a day is good, but brushing immediately after you drink a cup of tea is even better.
Surviving without coffee is one thing, but what'll keep me warm throughout winter without tea :(
 
@Fabien I drink coffee and nothing's wrong with my teeth. :)
 
@Leri Are they white like @rdlowrey's? His double as a torch in the dark.
 
@Fabien nope. :D
 
user895378
I'm on the historic coastal lighthouse preservation list.
2
 
6:28 PM
lol
 
user895378
I'm also AFK for a couple hours. Catch you guys later :)
 
Pea soup
My teeth are probably fine too, but I would like a whiter smile.
Even if it's a little shallow :P
 
7:11 PM
@JoeWatkins IMO, we can't do anything but try to improve phpdbg
 
Damn that was a good first 12 episodes.
 
7:24 PM
@LeviMorrison I still like IS_ARRAY ;)
 
@JoeWatkins and that's now too by writing docs ;-)
 
7:38 PM
@Danack BOOM! Our Worst Case Scenario page was loading at 14 seconds before the change, 2.1 with the temporary tables implemented roughly the way you suggested. Dialing it in some more, but it looks like that was a wiener!
 
@Chris Cool. That's still a bit slow....but you'll probably need to analyze the individual queries to see which ones are taking the time.....but if you are running the queries individually to generate the data, that also becomes 'trivial'.
 
Oh yes, I need to see sub-0.75s page loads to be satisfied. I think I've got plenty of optimization left in the code structure itself. The main content model is defined by dynamic fields using metadata from the db, that could be cached for 50% improvement alone, skipping all those friggin queries.
 
hey all!
 
And, I could probably cache some of these query results, content isn't added THAT frequently. Could probably stand for 15 minute cache intervals.
 
I'm passing in a table name by reference into a mysql statement in php
using %s but it always wraps it in quotes due to %s meaning string i assume...
 
7:43 PM
@vimes1984 No you're not.
 
ok maybe I'm not...
 
Prepared statements only allow variables to be passed in....table names have to be constant.
(I think....)
 
why does this work:
$sql = $wpdb->prepare( "SELECT f.id FROM {$bp->profile->table_name_fields} AS f, {$bp->profile->table_name_groups} AS g WHERE f.parent_id = 0 AND g.id = f.group_id ORDER BY f.id");
but not this
$sql = $wpdb->prepare( "SELECT f.id FROM %s AS f, {$bp->profile->table_name_groups} AS g WHERE f.parent_id = 0 AND g.id = f.group_id ORDER BY f.id", $table_name_fields);
it just wraps the %s in ' '
 
1 min ago, by Danack
Prepared statements only allow variables to be passed in....table names have to be constant.
 
so there is no way to do it?
okey doeky F*cking wordpress
thaks
 
7:46 PM
If you just want to make it read nicer, do:
 
i was concerned abotu a wordpress "warning"
 
$query = sprintf(
"SELECT f.id FROM %s AS f, %s AS g WHERE f.parent_id = 0 AND g.id = f.group_id ORDER BY f.id",
$bp->profile->table_name_fields,
$bp->profile->table_name_groups
);
@vimes1984 That's possibly just a bogus bug report, if it's just doing a naive analysis of the statement.
It's possible whatever DB library you're using is inserting the table name into the query before sending it to the database. But actual prepared statements on the database don't allow the table name to be variable.
 
8:01 PM
@danack thanks :D
 
@NikiC Does the unified expression patch also permit arbitrary nesting? Such as $a = ((((($b)))))->c(); ?
 
@DanLugg yes.
 
Awesome possum; thanks @bwoebi /cc @NikiC
 
But why would you do it?
 
@bwoebi Just curious, actually.
I wrapped a function call in parenthesis by accident, and attempted to invoke a method from the result and it borked -- wasn't sure why.
(f($x))->g();
 
8:09 PM
@RobertMallow yes
why do you mention me and delete it
 
OS X has some pretty good memory management on board. There is no reason (for us users) to fiddle with this. @bmike gives a good explanation here: apple.stackexchange.com/a/67048/55028CousinCocaine 7 hours ago
Why do people think I'd suffer the XY problem? I asked the question because it's really what I want, not because I'm thinking to just suffer a problem the OS can manage for me.
 
@bwoebi OS X Yosemite
:-P
 
@DanLugg I want to say that it's not funny, but it is funny.
 
:-D
 
8:45 PM
@rdlowrey you here?
 
seriously? is the post this bad? reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/2kowq5/…
 
Oh hi @ircmaxell can you do me a short favor?
 
no
 
Oh cool, new post, didn't read that yet.
Also, why not?
 
If you have to ask, you'll never know. If you know, you need only ask
 
8:48 PM
Oh cool, I love the simple made easy lecture
 
!!welcome BenjaminGruenbaum
damn, doesn't work here
 
Oh well…
#ifndef __SHIT_H__
#define __SHIT_H__

int shit(int, int);

#endif
On the other hand viml is giving a lot of fucks.
 
9:03 PM
@SecondRikudo github.com/kengonakajima/snippets/blob/… wtf… (yea… that won't compile because recursive…)
 
Paypal API down last night... what a headache. Now I've got cashiers whinging at me about how we need 100% reliable payment processing. Pfft. The only 100% you're going to get out of credit card payment processing is 100% certainty that there will be unplanned down time.
 
Tell them to use cash.
 
100% reliable... give me a break. Never used the internet before? FFS. If Google and Amazon can't be 100%, how the hell is this place supposed to be with a nonprofit's budget?
 
And tell your payment processor to use cache.
 
9:45 PM
hmm ... I it just my impression, or is it harder to find a decent frontend developer then it is to find one for backend ?
"decent", as in, I do not get an immediate urge to slap him/her
 
@tereško this has been my experience too.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum It's a matter of attitude
I've seen people in my company treat UI/frontend as though it were second grade.
It's all very subtle obviously, but that's the vibe I'm getting
As if UI is the intern's job
 
well, now that I think of it, yeah .. that's then general feeling that I get
 
I'd say it partially depends on the work.
Like a web agency relies more on front than back.
 
Also, PHP devs are often expected to do UI work ... and naturally, UI is an afterthought for most of us.
 
9:48 PM
Especially with all this node wankery around. :P
 
I work in a web agency
our frontend "developer" do not understand the concept of closure
 
I donnu, web backend always seemed kind of trivial to structure compared to web frontend. Less moving parts and state.
 
hell , the two backend guy have actually grasped it by now .. but not the fronts
both sides have about the same level of total complexity, @BenjaminGruenbaum
 
Most of our backend is just CRUD though, we have a lot of complicated logic feeding stuff to the DB but it's not really the web's backend, the web sees it 3 steps later when it's already in redis.
 
@tereško Most of our UI guys will use .innerHTML readily
We recenntly merged with a company that had document.write all over their codebase.
 
9:51 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum then the backend in your company is done by shitheads
 
@tereško well, it depends on what you're making, but generally yeah.
@tereško why?
 
@tereško The backend in his company is made by him, AFAIK XD
 
@SecondRikudo Not really :P I think it's pretty good though.
It's just not a database skin, which is 99% of php backends I've ever seen.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum for every hour I spend on dealing with SQL and persistence, I spend about 23 hours on logic and stuff
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum You should have let him steam a bit though :|
 
9:53 PM
... then again, I actully can write SQL
 
@tereško have you considered that perhaps our use cases are different? Most of our site displays data that is already processed by our other system.
 
probably
 
Also, props for writing SQL, our backend feeds on data we coming from 24 VMs that constantly scan and scrape hundreds of thousands of articles and then use machine learning and rule based text analysis to read that text and actually understand it, then we feed it into portfolios and rank those ratings and experts using algorithms that will be published in very esteemed scientific journals next year.
So, props on SQL, I'm sure your backend is a lot harder than what we have.
 
what do you use for neural net ?
we have FANN
 
We don't use neural net, but I have my own code that does CNN. Our ML is mostly SVMs and we also use a lot of text analysis tools like GATE.
 
9:57 PM
Moar acronyms!
 
A lot of the stack is hand rolled, we swapped open source parts for home grown parts when the open source stuff wasn't fast or good enough.
 
@Fabien yeah I only understood CNN but I'm pretty sure it's not the one I know
 
@Fabien SVM is support vector machines, it's quite simple. Basically - you have a plane (like the plane with xy axis) with good points and bad points - classification is just wanting to put a line between those points so you know what side the good points are and what side the bad points are.
 
different domain
 
Pretty sure there's a mathematical term for that line
 
9:59 PM
@Fabien SVM or support vector machines basically say "well, maybe there are plenty of ways to choose such a line - so we should choose the one that has the most distance between the line and the points"
 
Been nearly a decade since I did statistics.
 
@Fabien you'd rather get the mathematical terms or what happens?
 
@Fabien not sure if you can describe it as "statistic"
 
It simply reminded me of some stuff I did a long while ago at Uni (Psychology)
 
There are good lectures with that Iranian professor on SVM, not sure they're on YouTube, I can link you to a good lecture but it's in Hebrew.
@tereško it's called statistical learning, so I'm pretty sure he can.
 
10:01 PM
yeah, my Hebrew might be a bit rusty
ok , yeah .. probably
especially since you probably are optimizing the line for the least average error .. or something along those lines
s/error/deviation ?
< bad at math terms
 
I always found it was making the results display more favourably.
 
@tereško well, it really depends, choosing a different error function means different things but typically you'd use least squares. Also yes - error is the correct term.
Anyway, my point was that our server code is complex but our web backend code is simple - our complexity points aren't sql.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I do not know the english term, transliterated from lativian it is "average square mistake"
 
Also, writing LINQ is easier than writing SQL anyway, it doesn't matter how fast you can write your architecture with mappers and all that, I just autogenerate everything and then do db.MyEntites.Where(...).Select(...) :D
@tereško yeah, that's pretty similar - it's called the least squares estimation or least squares loss function.
Then again, SQL is too slow for a lot of stuff anyway and our SQL servers are too loaded. Redis is perfect for us.
So fast...
 
.. the direction is probably is reversed, because the term comes for deriving "truthiness of experimental measurements"
 
10:07 PM
Well, saying SQL is slow was stupid of me, but I hope what I was trying to say wasn't lost. A language isn't slow yada yada.
 
what you do is in reverse: you assume a conclusions and then check whether it get a lower "deviation" than previous assumption
 
Well, a lot of learning models work like that. A simple example is a perceptron.
SVM also kind of works like that, so does SGD and a bunch of other stuff. Even neural nets work that way with some algorithms. Not to mention reinforced learning where it's very common - stuff like Q learning ETC.
There are models that don't do it, but a lot of ones do.
 
anyway , back to the original point: good frontend devs are rare
=/
 
agreed :D
 
Good devs are rare
Maybe not in room 11 but in the real world.
Though I could agree good frontend devs are more rare.
 
10:15 PM
Given every language except Java hs closures now - not knowing what closures are would probably make them outdated as a backend dev at best.
(Although you said the backend guys get it)
 
if I have to make another <select> replacements, I will start looking for a new job =/
 
You got enough saved yet?
 
nope
what I have saved now will buy computer + bed
 
Ooh finally the computer
 
I need at least +2k€ to have enought
that's about 4-5 month savings
 
10:18 PM
Or a job offer
 
I need to finish current project
and probably "next" one too
my portfolio has gone to shit since I spent previous need on a corporate intranet application
 
What's with the 'need'?
Portfolio can be github
 
nothing to lose in interviewing though
 
You want to work for many more web agencies?
 
I have nothing against web agencies
 
10:21 PM
I'm not saying they're bad, but is it your direction?
 
yes
because other direction are kinda boring or crap ... or out of my reach
 
nothing is out of your reach
 
ok, lets say "immediate reach"
 
g'night
 
lol. You're ability is way greater than mine and I landed two jobs for roles that weren't web agency.
Unless you mean distance reach rather than ability.
 
10:26 PM
according to my last IQ test I should be able to learn some different crap in a month or so
but that requires free time and dedication
 
Maybe if you had a job that didn't demand so much of your free time.
 
Has anyone played with z-ray?
 
sounds like some fancy name for a dildo
 
Probably about right, it's a zend commercial product
 
10:50 PM
hello, I had a question. Say i have a div with a width and height of 1000px, any image that is inside this div will be cut down to a width of 50% leavning the height to auto. since the image is inside this div the width will be 500px. now for example say im in PHP and i want to know how can i get the height of a photo if an image is 500px width. because i want to keep the aspect ratio. not all photos will have the same height.
 
I got that link by doing just some basic googling by the way
If you want to get more advanced then just getting the height/width you need to look into full blown image processing libraries
 
@cspray but wouldnt this just get the width and height of the original image say 1920 by 1080p ? what i want is to get the height of an image if the width is specified.
 
@this.Tony Ah, so you want the aspect ratio. If you know the original image size and the requested width the rest is just math.
Use that aforementioned googling thing to find the appropriate mathematical formula. Believe it or not this is not the kind of information I have off the top of my head.
 
@cspray yes yes
 
So, this may be the ultimate nerd drama
@cspray fyi it's literally just $aspectRatio = $originalW / $originalH; $newH = $newW * $aspectRatio; /cc @this.Tony
 
11:03 PM
You know it's gonna be good when the two main people involved are named Pengo and PurpleKecleon
@DaveRandom I figured it would be something pretty simple
I've just never had to do image processing stuff before
 
@DaveRandom lol i just found it im testing to see if its what i want lol thanks tho
@cspray ty too
 
No problemo
 
@this.Tony remember that an image can only be an integer number of px ;-)
 
yes i know ahaha @DaveRandom
 
@cspray Yeh, and the author is eevee (the PHP fractal guy)
 
11:07 PM
My God, this is 133 pages long?
 
That's what I mean, ultimate nerd drama
It's like UFC for nerds or something
 
Is this about Anime?
I'm morbidly intrigued as to what the hell this is about that would cause somebody to go "You're wrong on the Internet!" for 133 pages
 
It seems to be about some guy bitching about the fact that he made a bunch of free music for something anime related
I stopped reading because I know that if I don't I'll end up reading all 133 pages
 
I nerd pretty fucking hardcore but that's on a whole 'nother level.
 
It came to my attention because of this genius: twitter.com/0xabad1dea/status/527574015150653440
 
11:12 PM
@DaveRandom @cspray it worked thanks guys
 
@DaveRandom wat.
 
function resize_dims($oldW, $oldH, $newW = null, $newH = null) {
return $newW ? ($oldH / $oldW) * $newW : ($oldW / $oldH) * $newH;
}
god damn markdown
@Danack inorite
 
@DaveRandom function for me?
@DaveRandom Thanks
 
Yes. Give it the old width and height in the first two args, then give it either the new width or the new height and it will give you the other component
Actually what you probably want is return (int)round($newW ? ($oldH / $oldW) * $newW : ($oldW / $oldH) * $newH);
 
ok peferct thanks man @DaveRandom
 
11:33 PM
@Danack you around for some n00b-core questions?
 
@DaveRandom Sure. I am an expert on noobing.
 
So, in a nutshell, it's quite a long time since I've done anything database driven where I've started with a clean slate, and I am now in that position and I've realised I have no idea how to design a data access layer from the ground up in a way that makes sense
I started kicking something around and it's basically turned into active record and I want to nip it in the bud here and now. What's the sane way to not have to write a trillion LoC and have a proper IoC?
I'd like to avoid littering the codebase with raw SQL if poss, not least because it's currently MySQL powered but I wanted to move to pg in the not-too-distant future and I don't want to have to touch every arm of the codebase when I do that
 
@DaveRandom M'kay. You are possibly talking to the wrong person....I am quite shite at designing data access layers. What I am finding is that using a repository/mapper/gateway layer to completely take away any exposure of how the data is stored seems to be the only sane thing to do. The downside of that is that is means that you have to think about how your application is going to access data which actually may not be a bad thing.
i.e.. it means that your data access layer doesn't return an ORM style object that has all possible knowledge about an object, instead it's just a collection of small snippets of data e.g. if you ask the data layer for a user and their email addresses it would return an object that returns the user entity and an array of user email address entities.
A lot of people hate that.....I think it's probably the right way to go.
But you should probably hit up Ocramius to get his advice as he has way more experience at that sort of thing - even if his mind has been polluted by Doctrine.
 
I have no problem with thinking, and I don't actually mind writing a crapload of boilerplate if that's what is required, I just want to avoid a situation where a) entities are god objects/massive LSP violators or b) it's impossible to swap out the DB back end (I am fully aware that it's never going to be easy)
 
For the sake of hilarity - this is an example of what an thingy in my data access layer actually looks like - pastebin.com/q3WV94R3
It's a hugely specific method, that returns an array of BaseReality\Content\BlogPost objects - the same could be achieved with Doctrines DBAL layer and it's hydrators rather than my comedy DB layer.
As I said, people who have been using ORMs hate this style because it forces you to write really specific code for fetching each thing.....but it means that each data access can be thought about individually, as well as tested with a mock version...
 
11:46 PM
I don't have a problem with very specific methods as long as they can be sanely separated
i.e. I don't want objects with 100 public methods
 
tbh if PHP had autoloading for functions, they could just be functions...
 
How do you handle updates in this case? When an entity doesn't actually have all its data, btw
There's a temptation to just create a horrible "this data has changed" mechanism internally in the entity and just shut the lid on the black box but every fibre of my being screams at me not to do this
At the moment I have a Entity\Base class and I hate that, it feels very wrong
 
@DaveRandom I just create another really specific method that does the updating of the data in the data store e.g. BlogPostMapper::updateBlogPostText($blogPostID, $text) just updates the text of a blog post.
You could make an method that takes arbitrary columns to update, but I'd still put it in a mapper/repository rather than the object itself.
 
Yeh well that's kind of a given if you want to stick to proper IoC
hmmm, I shall go away and kick some things around again and probably ask again when the room is busier
I have no idea how to spell that word, doesn't look right
 
As I said, you should ask Ocramius for an example project that uses repository pattern 'properly' as opposed to poorly.
'Busier' => 'more like a bus'
 
11:53 PM
exactly
I will ask Ocramius at some point, but only when I have clarified my own ideas a bit (he always seems to be ridiculously busy so I don't want to waste his time with airy-fairy stuff)
Similarly I would be interested in what teresko has to say but I need to figure out what I actually think first in order to ask answerable questions
 

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