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11:00 PM
Reading between the lines, I suspect that @redshift is dealing with an Exchange server, which is why no-one has come over and said "here's some SMTP details" before now
 
Did I just hear that Outlook is good?
 
Not good, no
But better than most
They all still suck
email sucks
extremely hard
 
@DaveRandom Until it crashes and corrupts the file-storage it's great. Guess what happened that caused my last company to move to gmail?
 
The internet is a big bag of rust bolts, the email infrastructure is one of the rustiest
 
user895378
@LeviMorrison later.
 
user895378
11:02 PM
@DaveRandom So it's settled, then: the internet is one big tetanus infection.
 
@Danack Use an Exchange multi-server set up with incremental backups and you are about as protected as you really can be
But yeh, I'm enjoying Gmail All The Things
Although there are some elements of it that are a bit annoying, some of the UX on stuff like filters sucks a bit
 
@DaveRandom Or pay $50 per person per year for all of google apps.
 
mmmhmmm
brb food
 
Yeah - one of the techy sales guys setup outlook to connect to gmail as it allowed him to keep his 'one folder per client' setup....which far beats the gmail inbox for people who get huge amounts of correspondence.
 
11:23 PM
Oh god
I... just had an even worse idea than bef- no I'm not even going to mention it
My PHP TODO list/wishlist/ideas list: gist.github.com/TazeTSchnitzel/0be2308a687f931442a8
 
user895378
@AndreaFaulds You forgot "Immutable Tuples"
 
@rdlowrey We have them, they're called arrays
 
Arrays can be mutated.
 
If you want strict typing, copy what Hack does
 
user895378
But PHP arrays are crazy Frankenmaplist structures, not orderly, numerically indexed immutable tuples.
 
11:27 PM
@TumblrGuy True... but they're a value type.
@rdlowrey Aha, well... in Hack, there are different types of array
They're all still PHP arrays
 
In my opinion, if you want immutable tuples just implement them as objects.
 
Or, well, just use arrays. They're fine for this
They can be mutated... but not a distance*
 
user895378
I just want an immutable primitive without having to do an ugly slow userland ArrayAccess with a horrible API that throws on setter methods.
 
*except for references
 
user895378
That's just ... The Worst.
 
11:29 PM
Use arrays and pretend they're immutable ^^
 
user895378
Yes, I get it, but it would be nice if the language had this basic building block. Because you can never be sure something hasn't been modified without brutalizing perf via userland objects.
 
user895378
You can't write performant PHP code if you want any concept of immutability.
 
can someone help me understand why absolute urls in php includes don't work on my server? Yet, relative urls do work.
 
I don't get the obsession with immutable tuples. Like not at all
 
If you look at most use cases for tuples, they actually aren't incredibly helpful.
 
user895378
11:31 PM
It's strictly a performance thing for me. I want the safety of immutability in some cases but don't want the overhead of a userland object to make it happen.
 
I think you underestimate how immutability helps performance.
 
If we go down that road, I'd rather have separate array and map types. But without any immutability. Actually I'd go one step against immutability and give them by-object semantics.
 
It actually hurts it, because you have to copy everything.
 
user895378
@TumblrGuy Not at all. My life is benchmarks.
 
user895378
Userland objects are the problem, not mutability.
 
user895378
11:32 PM
$screwYouRdlowreyBecausePhp =& thisShouldReturnSomethingImmutable();
 
I'd love to see these benchmarks that demonstrate real world use cases where immutability proves more performant than mutation.
 
user895378
 
user895378
People who make this argument invevitably are not bound by performance constraints.
 
@TumblrGuy It doesn't matter for perf.
 
@NikiC well, it matters if you end up copying a lot of large objects several times for what could have been a single mutation.
 
user895378
11:34 PM
Yes, I get it: if you're using the web SAPI then perf is almost certainly not an issue for you and you don't need what I'm talking about.
 
@TumblrGuy why would you copy it?
 
user895378
There are a million better things to optimize in a typical web application than needing userland types for immutability.
 
@NikiC if it's immutable than I can't mutate its state, right? So the only way to use it is to copy it. So for example str = 'foo'; return str.substr(0,1);
That's a copy
 
@TumblrGuy ah I get what you mean. Well, if you use immutable structures it's because they aren't going to be mutated...
 
In what world is that real?
Things that can't mutate are typically not very useful.
 
user895378
11:36 PM
There are entire languages devoted to this.
 
In the world that @rdlowrey is referring to
 
Haskell?
 
Like Python tuples ^^
 
Sorry, I may have walked in on the tail-end of this conversation.
Ahh, yeah I find Python tuples more useless than helpful, to be honest.
 
user895378
It's not a huge thing and I know only 1% of PHP code could really benefit from it, but it would just be nice to have :)
 
11:37 PM
But that may just be me.
 
@TumblrGuy I don't think tuples in PHP would be particularly useful either ;)
 
Then we're on the same page.
 
user895378
I've been back into server work for the last couple weeks ... looking forward to comparing some benchmarks with master since the phpng merge.
 
@rdlowrey would be interesting
pls report bugs. there's going to be bugs ^^
 
user895378
Definitely will do.
 
11:39 PM
though I'd assume that you are mostly bound by io, right?
 
user895378
Well I have some benchmarks that aren't. Like immediately returning a "hello world" for any request where both the server and client are on the same machine to minimize network latency.
 
user895378
In that scenario I've seen wide fluctuations from userland code changes unrelated to IO.
 
user895378
So I can get a pretty good idea of the perf difference just from the php-src changes.
 
user895378
It'll be a few days, though, since most everything is in pieces right now.
 
Tuples would matter more in say, JS
which has mutable, pass-by-ref arrays
PHP's arrays are mutable, but they're a value type
Hmm...
@NikiC Idea... we have constant arrays, yes?
 
11:42 PM
PHP Arrays are freaks of nature
 
What if we added a way to make a constant array value?
 
@AndreaFaulds then you'd have to parse arrays at compile time.
PHP Arrays ... just stay away (is my philosophy). Objects make way more sense to me.
Again, that might just be me.
 
@TumblrGuy I have plans to improve arrays
 
user895378
Well, PHP arrays can be super useful, but yeah, if you're smart "objects all of the things" is a good philosophy for maintainable code
 
Not change their fundamentals, but change little things that make them less useful
For example, they mangle non-string keys. That's BAD
Especially in a weakly-typed language
The fact $foo[PHP_INT_MAX + 1] and $foo[(string)(PHP_INT_MAX + 1)] do completely different things is awful
That's an obscure example...
$foo[1.5] and $foo["1.5"] are completely different
Also, I wanna add immutable array methods...
@TumblrGuy I think a lot of the problem is the built-in methods
Some of them act on it as an ordered map
Some act on it as a traditional indexed array
I think it'd be better to always do an ordered map and then explicitly re-index?
Or... well, I don't even know :/
 
11:55 PM
Stay away... stay far far away :)
 
@TumblrGuy The problem with PHP arrays is actually really simple
All values have keys.
If you changed that, they'd be fixed.
 
@DaveRandom much communist?
 
lol awesomesauce :-D
 
Let me tweak the templates, I'll accept beer and pizza, or anything edible.
 
Caviar?
 
user895378
11:59 PM
Actually, the more I think about it the less I think an immutable tuple makes sense for PHP. I still wish I could have it, but I don't think it fits with the "php should be easy to pickup if you don't know anything about code" idea that has made the language popular.
 

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