« first day (1176 days earlier)      last day (3788 days later) » 

7:02 PM
I've seen doctrine use repositories for retrieving data from the db. How about updating data in the db. Does such a method also belong in the repository when using the Entity/Repository pattern?
 
@Jimbo yeah
Most of my repository classes start a method like this: public function save(Thing $thing) { $this->getEntityManager()->persist($thing); $this->getEntityManager()->flush(); }
 
Do you expect / want support for revisions when editing pages in a CMS?
 
@dyelawn So you're using your entity manager inside your repositories instead of your service using the entity manager itself to create and persist a new object? How come?
 
@PeeHaa yes.
 
7:07 PM
hmm k tnx
 
@Jimbo i'm not sure i follow. i'm passing a Model that's already been created to the EntityManager for persistence. it also passes through a facade Manager class before it gets to the Repository class.
 
@dyelawn What I have is my service -> creates the object -> runs $em->persist($object); -> $em->flush(). But what you are using is your service -> creates the object -> runs $repositoryClass->save($object);
Just wondering if there's a reason for that?
Yours is shorter actually.. hmm
 
the part i guess i don't understand is what service is creating the object in your pattern
like, why is that service handling the concern of creating the object and the concern of persisting the object
 
For example I have written a small lib that is fetching some data from an external service and may want to update / create new objects in my own db. So somewhere in this service I'm DI -ing my entity manager and using that to persist new objects
Oh, the service isn't handling the actual creation per-se, it asks a factory to do that
 
user895378
Dec 31 '13 at 23:28, by rdlowrey
Service: the word all popular PHP frameworks use to disguise their bad coding practices.
 
user895378
7:17 PM
Also, @Jimbo: ask and ye shall receive. I'll be pushing a micro web SAPI framework up to my github before the end of the weekend. It's built on auryn and the ultra-fast aerys routing code. Basically it's like silex except for about 20x faster.
 
Bastard :P
I retract that bastard, and DI an massive awesome. Very excited :)
 
user895378
Re-tweet ahoy!
 
:D
 
oh ok, yeah i build the repository service with a factory; basically it ends up being EntityManager->getRepository(// whatever Model it should manage)
 
7:19 PM
@rdlowrey I'm looking forward to seeing it - might just have to transfer everything over to it. Have you get a name?
 
user895378
AWSF (Aerys Web SAPI Framework)
 
user895378
Pronounced "aw-siff"
 
Lol...
What about that awesome name I tweeted you ages ago, that was a good 'A'
 
user895378
I forget. I get all the A* names confused as it is.
 
AWSF all caps -> doesn't fit in with Auryn, Aerys, Artax etc. And Awsf doesn't look right
 
user895378
7:20 PM
Whatevs. Names can change.
 
is that 20x faster thing based on benchmarks, or just kind of like "yeah, this is way faster"?
@Jimbo guess i didn't really answer this. the main reason is to separate everything as much as possible, and bridge to the separate handlers through the Manager facade. I just figured that the Repository class was as good a place as any for handling database operations, and almost certainly better than in Controllery stuff
 
@rdlowrey I can't find that name :( But I found this instead
♫ Hey, I just committed you, and I'm being lazy. But hey it's Friday, so I'll git push -f maybe. ♫ #git #yolo
 
user895378
ha.
 
user895378
Carly Rae Jepsen code references FTW.
 
lol
 
7:25 PM
@dyelawn You're right, much better than controller stuff - I think I might just move all my entity manager stuff into my repos, thanks ;D
 
@Jimbo np. always interested in hearing how other people do stuff, though. all other devs on the project say i make things too convoluted.
 
@dyelawn Nah, when they're educated to the same level it's understandable - it's that way for a reason
The team I work with thought array_filter() was too complicated to use and I had to explain how it wasn't and back it up
 
yay somebody reacts on one of my rant tweets! 2014 will be the year where all online PHP resources will be fixed! :)
#all #fixed
;)
Also 2014 will be the year I'm going to finish all my projects I am working on and I'm going to close all my github tickets!!!!1111111eineineein
 
Actually 2014 is the year where I had Mango Chicken first Jan 4th.
 
7:32 PM
:)
No wait! I know what is going to happen. 2014 will be the year the Tao will be posting regularly again! cc @rdlowrey
:D
 
Nice rant btw. And Bruno is an absolute lunatic. He didn't even cover that those frameworks are forks of my Super::$tatic framework.
 
hahahahaha
@hakre We need to do something with that awesome concept man!
 
user895378
@PeeHaa Oh, I forgot about that. If anyone wants the password for @TheTaoOfRoom11 to help out let me know and I'll email it to you!
 
> I code and own many domains. I also write for the masses. Read my inhumanely awesome and educational stuff on bitfalls.com
What does this even mean?
 
user895378
@webarto Beats me.
 
7:35 PM
@webarto Isn't the twitter intro meant for stuff you come up when you have been awake for a week under the influence of meth?
 
@PeeHaa PHP is the Father. Now meet the Mother of all TOP PHP Frameworks: Super::$tatic (only valid if you've passed certification).
 
@hakre We're going to be filthy rich selling certs for that!
 
Certified PHP Static Engineer
> Have you passed CPSE lately?
 
OMFG that is beautiful!
 
And there is also: Certified PHP Super Static Engineer - CPSSE
But you can only get that one, if you've passed the first one.
 
7:38 PM
Now that I have started to check twatter once in a while I need to follow some of you people btw. Lets filter all of you who don't talk about how proper their shit looked today!
 
And the fail rate with CPSE is ca. 90%.
 
@dyelawn Ignore that - overthinking things and chatting rubbish
 
@webarto You're a certification whore. Want to get a special discount? Let either me or @hakre know. Coupon code is #StaticsRockstar
 
I am so not :D
 
:P
 
7:39 PM
wow. da rock-strrrr grrrree ***
 
/me sends email
 
user895378
@PeeHaa Don't feel bad -- It took me about a year to start getting into twitter ... even now I only use it maybe once per day.
 
Did Fabien P ever admit to what he was doing with all that funky pushing on github?
 
@rdlowrey I'm really having a hard time writing up nice and proper rants within the 140 chars limit tbh
 
@PeeHaa Sack off the profane words then.
 
user895378
7:41 PM
@PeeHaa Exactly. It's hard to distill snarkiness down to the minimum number of characters.
 
@Fabien nice and proper ;)
 
user895378
Being an asshole and sounding intelligent in just 140 chars takes real work.
 
who cares on twitter?
 
@rdlowrey We should setup some shortening service for that
 
user895378
lol devops snark twitter service.
 
7:43 PM
:D
 
Like twatter.com ?
 
> @PHPeeHaa Cheers. Like I said, if you'd be interested to write a detailed follow up, that'd be great. We pay rather well for posts.
Wasn't sitepoint that site where you sign over all the rights to your posts?
@Fabien It exists??
lol
 
> I think we should follow CakePHP. They are in the middle of developing version 3.0.
 
@Fabien what funky pushing?
 
Why I'm I surprised btw?? I'm new to this intarnet thing
 
7:45 PM
:P
 
user895378
Wow that twatter site has so much win.
 
user895378
How have I not seen this yet.
 
there are really golden comments there.
 
@hakre I read that and instantly puked and cried at the same time
 
@hakre Version 3.0 as in, 3x as shit?
 
7:47 PM
@Jimbo I dunno. I don't know it. It must have been ages since the last release. However why would one want to know another framework in PHP 2014?
I must even admit that PHP is the framework and all those PHP frameworks are trying to sell you that under their name.
So I'm now Anti-Framework!
 
@hakre I think they're going to try and revert the damage done to their reputation
 
@Jimbo I don't think so. I mean if I would be Cake developer I would stand over the superficial critique.
 
I just was astonished over the comment: "Next year there will be Blurb three fart zerro" - "yes let's watch that popping."
 
Can you people post your twatter handles so I can check them out and see whether you are not talking about your cat the entire time?
 
7:50 PM
I have just created a "Framework" for CLI apps.
I call it "Monkey"
It has easy to remember patterns. For example if you quit with an error, it goes:
Monkey::angry('you failed');
 
@hakre so there's no framework you find useful? do you use other people's components in any of your projects?
 
@dyelawn Sure, that Monkey::angry() for example loads exactly 63% of the Symfony2 Standard Edition stack.
 
@PeeHaa I don't have a cat. :'(
 
If you have an environment variable set for colors, then it's even three or five classes more to have color support in shell.
 
A lot of us in here are cat owners.
 
7:53 PM
@salathe Who needs cats when there are dawgs?
 
@PeeHaa I don't have a dawgs. :'(
 
@salathe fish?
A wife?
 
Then you perhaps have a budgerigar?
 
@hakre i understand what you're saying about bloat, and it's fair. but at least for prototyping something and bootstrapping development?
 
7:55 PM
*runs away crying*
 
@dyelawn You didn't get me, right? I'm now Anti-Framework.
 
@salathe :-)
 
There is no Frame my work fits in. I take things that fit to my work, not the other way round.
 
@hakre i did get that.
it just seems like a kind of unnecessarily biased approach
 
@dyelawn Frameworks only stand in your way. They are liars. And they create bad habits, reduce quality, make team members cheating, are false prophets, are posioning the software development lifecycle etc. pp.
 
7:56 PM
At my new place I haven't worked on any old code yet, I did help my desk-neighbour debug an issue, it involved looking through a 400 line function. -_-
in Drupal
 
Instead do proper code-reuse.
 
@hakre they can also teach people good patterns
 
@dyelawn Which ones do that?
 
@dyelawn Have you ever noticed that in practice?
 
-_-
 
7:57 PM
From what I've learned in real-life, that is wishful thinking.
 
@hakre yeah, i mean learning spring/symfony alongside reading some good lit helped me understand a lot of things that i didn't before.
that's not to say that you should use them in all particular cases, but you can at least see some working examples of patterns
 
@dyelawn Have you ever put that to a test? Or have you critically reviewed your experience?
 
i have critically reviewed my experience.
and so have others
 
Dec 19 '13 at 12:04, by NikiC
Also, I don't think most people in here dislike frameworks because of the perf impact (though it might be a factor)
Dec 19 '13 at 12:04, by NikiC
It's likely more about them commonly being badly designed to the point of absolutely coupling your application code to the fw
 
@Fabien This i agree with. like, i was a big fan of generators before, but now i'm not so much for this particular reason. another limiting factor of frameworks that i've found is the rigid domain structure gets in the way of making good, transferable design decisions
 
7:59 PM
@dyelawn So, how did using a framework compared with learning just the basics w/o having the framework in the way and practically applying what has been learned directly and unbiased?
 
@hakre any time that you are using someone else's code with your own, you are of course making yourself biased to their implementation methodology. that said, there are always better programmers out there than me that i like to learn from.
 
^ needs some DVs first, then we can pull the plug.
 
so instead of just saying, "well, my app needs a router, i'm gonna write one", i like to look at what some of those people have done beforehand. and if there's something that works perfectly, i'll use it instead of recreating any wheels.
 
I try not to assume a better programmer than I is a good programmer.
Which is part of the argument against PSR
 
@dyelawn I use others code all the time. However I use code that is not written to indoctrinate a framework but just provide functionality.
There is no implementation methodology with encapsulation.
And you actually learn by reading code that is part of the implementation, not by docking into a framework.
 
8:03 PM
@hakre that's why i asked way up there whether you used any other people's components in your projects. i can see limiting to that instead of using frameworks.
@hakre this is what i'm referring to when i say learning from the framework(s).
 
If I have a value object thingy and it can be filled using data from some form (instance of some Form object) and it can also be filled using a simple array. Would it be stupid to have a single entry point Thing::fill() which accepts either thing instead of having two methods?
 
hi all
 
@PeeHaa polymorphism is clearly more utilitarian
 
@PeeHaa Why not Thing::createFromArray($array), Thing::createFromForm($form) + Thing::createNiceTryOn($any) ?
 
here goes
 
8:05 PM
@peehaa but given the current state of the php language, it might be better to implement an interface
 
1 message moved to recycle bin
 
lol that escalated way too slowly ;)
 
Wonder if anything is happening with phreeze. You never really hear about it.
2
 
@dyelawn The "current" state sounds like it will be fixed soon ;)
 
8:06 PM
hm?
can i get a link to what you're talking about?
 
@dyelawn Who are you talking to?
 
@Fabien I lost it, and now you brought it back! Thank you!
 
you @peehaa
 
Why is Derick in my "Who to follow" list on twatter?
@dyelawn Link to what?
 
what you meant about current state sounding like it would be fixed soon
 
8:09 PM
@hakre I'd lost it too, but I remember Gordon first posting it a long while ago in here. The search in here is like a bookmark manager sometimes.
 
@dyelawn I meant the way you said it it sounds like it will be fixed soon, but we all know it will not :)
 
@Fabien I could not remember who posted it either. I actually love the idea.
I wonder if it has CSS / XLS import export / "extend" - then it would be perfect ^^
 
so is the general opinion that phreeze is more useful than the popular php frameworks?
 
Not IMO but it's certainly interesting. I wouldn't use it, or can't see myself using it.
 
i mean, you guys at least have like project bases that you use though, right? when you start a new project, there's some sort of skeleton that you bring in to begin?
 
8:14 PM
@dyelawn What I mostly use is a library not a framework
 
@dyelawn It's an application to edit Mysql database tables, I won't call that a framework.
 
i thought i also saw something in their intro about including CSS and JS components (bootstrap and backbone)
 
@rdlowrey yeah gimme the tao's credentials
Do you know my mail?
 
@hakre and that their introduction video was titled "Introduction to Phreeze PHP Framework and Application Generator"
 
heh. I like this SO error
 
user895378
8:18 PM
@PeeHaa info@?
 
user895378
I believe so.
 
@dyelawn So what? Do you buy any title?
 
2 days ago, by rdlowrey
Routing + Middleware + Auryn to instantiate and execute the routed callable is really all I would want out of a web sapi framework.
 
<-- Super Advanced Mega Coder, Lover and Framwork Application Designer Architect
 
@hakre no, but after watching the video and a cursory view of the code, i think it's an apt title
 
8:19 PM
@rdlowrey yeah. that or nickname @php
@hakre lol
 
additionally, if you'll look at my original comment on the issue, i didn't call it a framework, i asked if it was considered more useful than the popular php frameworks. that's not a question that means they have to be in the same category. like, say, a phillips head screwdriver is more useful than a banana peel.
 
user895378
@PeeHaa Hmm ... trying hard to remember the pass. Just a minute :)
 
@dyelawn Actually, accoding to a recent report, one of the top popular frameworks is Codeigniter. I will now lean myself far out of the window, but I'm somewhat sure there is a - at least thin - majority here, that prefers Phreeze over such popular PHP framework.
 
@rdlowrey :-D
 
:)
 
8:23 PM
@hakre i'm not saying that i find any or all of the popular php frameworks useful. it was actually a question specifically because i understood phreeze to be a little different than what is often called a "framework"
 
@dyelawn I think so as well. It's just that it's not well to discuss things by using terms like "Framework" which really are wishy-washy.
 
@dyelawn You are obviously right. tnx
Room 11: never afraid to say you are stupid
 
@PeeHaa i only said 'clearly' bc i thought it was kind of a rhetorical question that was supposed to further what @hakre was saying about the limitations of framework conventions. i may or may not read way too much into things.
 
No it made me think about what I was doing. Sometimes a simple nudge is enough
 
Yeah - forget living in Queensland "St George topped the temperature list with 47.2C, while Winton and Longreach also had scorchers at 46.4C and 46.3C respectively"
 
8:30 PM
that's really hot.
 
And that's the air temperature in the shade - not what the temp is in the sun.
 
user895378
@PeeHaa Okay, finally got it sorted. Sent the pass to your info@ address.
 
lol nice
 
8:49 PM
Just watched the phreeze video, that's really nice
 
Ugh time to listen to Tool - Forty Six & 2 very loud.
 
@Jimbo ORLY?
$gc = GlobalConfig::GetInstance();

Dispatcher::Dispatch(
$gc->GetPhreezer(),
$gc->GetRenderEngine(),
'',
$gc->GetContext(),
$gc->GetRouter()
);
That's where I stopped reading.
 
@Jimbo i want to check it out to see how configurable it is.
 
@Jimbo I just can't figure where IRL this would work :)
 
That's not nice
Okay, the concept is nice
 
9:01 PM
the concept is really cool, i think at least. some sort of GUI for bootstrapping an application without having to hassle with composer.json/bower.json/Vagrantfile/Gruntfile.js/playbook.yml/chef-repo/Gemfile‌​/Berksfile etc.
 
@JoeWatkins lolwut
 
@JoeWatkins
 
that screams, "I dunno what I'm doing", so loudly that it actually hurts ...
if you say that outloud
the method ::get will call CurlPost if curl is loaded and FilePost if it is not ...
doesn't even make sense ...
surely, requesting a web page isn't something I should be able to pick holes in ...
consider the project judged ...
 
9:12 PM
well i don't have such valid complaints, mainly bc i watched the video and said "wheee cool hooray", but the most egregious thing to me from the first link you posted @JoeWatkins is the spacing and indentation conventions.
 
I couldn't resist ^^
 
:-)
 
Room 11 should get its own validation stamp.
 
nah, we should get our own "not-valid" stamp
2
 
9:14 PM
lol
 
yeah
hardly anything is valid
 
user895378
***********************
| Rejected by Room 11 |
***********************
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum lol
 
This is just a friendly reminder that you are eligible to get a discount on your CPSE if you mail me or peeha.
 
:P
 
user895378
@BenjaminGruenbaum lol
 
CPSE?
 
user895378
I'm too lazy for multi-byte character wizardry ...
 
9:16 PM
2 hours ago, by hakre
Certified PHP Static Engineer
2 hours ago, by hakre
And there is also: Certified PHP Super Static Engineer - CPSSE
 
@rdlowrey Then try half-byte characters
 
ugh, i hate selenium, and i hate 4gb of ram in a laptop that i can't freaking open myself.
 
consists of that character set abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz ,-!?.
 
user895378
If it's not \x00-\x7f I've probably got nothing.
 
no wait… let's do control character art.
 
9:20 PM
there's probably some way we can take a guess at the quality of code in a project ... here might be a starting place ... github.com/jasonhinkle/phreeze/search?q=static&ref=cmdform
200 occurences of static in code ...
200 ...
 
man, you really don't like this guy's work, huh? :)
 
problem with that, Joe?
 
user895378
I think function autoloading would eliminate the last only excuse for static in web sapi php.
 
@JoeWatkins It's laravel. What did you expect? :P
 
@rdlowrey no, then the excuse is: I don't like autoloading
lulz.
 
user895378
9:22 PM
pfffft. If you don't like autoloading then you've already eliminated the only excuse :)
 
@ircmaxell Oh yes, the good ol "@tereško seal of disapproval". It comes free with names of books the receiver of the seal will never read.
 
hehehe
 
user895378
@BenjaminGruenbaum nor understand
 
there are many @bwoebi ... 200 odd ...
 
@rdlowrey I wonder if anyone ever replied with "What's a book?"
 
user895378
9:24 PM
Is "book" the name of the dev video playlist on YouTube or something?
 
@JoeWatkins and yeah?
 
@dyelawn these types of framework/app/cms are breaking onto the scene at a rate of 40 projects a week, it's very important to point out that something is shit, even if it has a fancy video to go with it ...
 
@JoeWatkins yeah, like i said, i hadn't looked at it at all, and now that i have, i'm not really interested in the project. but i do still think that a quality implementation of a GUI that could help you bootstrap your application would be useful.
 
user895378
9:26 PM
IMO the reason there are so many frameworks in PHP is because they're sooooo freaking easy to write. In many other languages you actually have to write a large portion of the actual HTTP server implementation to create a usable web framework.
 
user895378
If you understand HTTP you can churn out a PHP web framework in a day.
 
user895378
When anyone can write a framework you end up with a metric ass ton of terrible frameworks.
 
@rdlowrey In a day? depends on the size of the framework…
 
user895378
Well yeah -- I'm ballpark estimating of course.
 
9:28 PM
the only differentiation i see between a lot of the PHP frameworks is stylistic approach and pedantic re-interpretation of identical solutions.
 
ballpark? Anyway, I can imagine there are other contexts that are benefitting "roll your own f-work"
 
I just don't like that a lot of them feel the same.
 
@JoeWatkins I've seen this before, written by "senior" devs.
 
Like only a very few are patching upstream (PHP core).
Everybody does the work-arounds in their fw.
 
user895378
@Fabien They all feel the same because they all are solving a largely non-existent problem (outside of aesthetics). PHP has already done 90% of the work of creating a web framework for you.
 
9:31 PM
I kinda think if this is how people want to develop their applications, it shouldn't even be on the community to come up with solutions, what you end up with is huge, massive, symphony has more instructions in it that my fucking dna ... we say PHP is a web scripting language, when anyone tries to take it in another direction they are met with a barricade of "PHP isn't for that" ... it should be good at the thing it is for ...
 
PHP itself is already a web-framework.
the static context of the request is well established.
 
yeah but the whole world is moved in this direction ... and we're standing there doing nothing about it ...
 
user895378
@JoeWatkins I'm not sure I understand what you're advocating.
 
user895378
Anyhow, afk: NFL playoffs.
 
oooh, oooh, fun game. speak as the php framework. i'll start:

symfony: "we have like 84,000 classes, so obviously it's smarter and better. also, vendor/Bundle/VendorName/BundleName/VendorNameBundleBundle"
laravel: "we love closures. seriously, fucking love them. if i could, i would marry closures."
wordpress: [refreshes browser] "looks good enough, push it up"
 
9:35 PM
cake: "I have no idea what I am doing"
 
php-core: "wait, what year is it ?"
6
 
zend: "whatever, maybe it does look a lot like symfony. did you know we invented php?"
 
:D
 
@JoeWatkins hahhahahahah
 
you're right that was fun ...
 
9:38 PM
sorry, i ran out of the ones i know
i expected everyone else to pick it up
i guess it was fun for you, since you won :)
 
@JoeWatkins I see your php-core and raise you seagullproject.org
 
my absolute favorite thing is when someone chooses an MVC/OOP/Whatev framework to use, then sees an impending deadline and says "fuck it" and starts putting transaction scripts and 8000 functions everywhere
 
I guess I propose an SWL ... SPL for today's web ...
 
i've never heard of this Phalcon thing before, but their logo is pretty sweet.
 
9:42 PM
they are an interesting team
 
I like the idea of that, and I like that they have recognized that it is required ... but wish it wasn't ...
this is only required because once you have a masesed enough code to say you have a framework, you're asking a hella lot of php
 
@dyelawn That directory structure is what I thought was super totally awesome 10 years ago
 
@JoeWatkins How goes the search btw?
 
@PeeHaa i'm not talking about the directory structure in the example, i'm talking about them saying that they don't impose a specific directory structure
bc i think that's one of the biggest problems with frameworks; labyrinthine directory structures that end up indoctrinating users with anti-patterns
 
9:51 PM
@Fabien no progress, sent a few more emails today ...
 
Avoiding the agents too?
 
@JoeWatkins yeah, just finished reading it. kinda seems like a catch-22; you want a big community to contribute to an open source project, but you've got to make things more accessible. their solution does seem to be a nice compromise.
 
wow, who pimped the search on php.net? Looks nice!
actually a reason to enable javascript on the site ^^
 
I'd rather not pay someone else ...
 
lol, i love trying to work on my laptop.

Timed out waiting for page load.
Command duration or timeout: 1800.01 seconds
that was after waiting ~30min for <55 behat steps to execute
 
9:58 PM
Their pay is whatever % of your salary they get from the person who hires you. Usually around 5. Either way, due to that they'll try and get you in any job anywhere. Tends to be awful.
 

« first day (1176 days earlier)      last day (3788 days later) »