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7:00 PM
that could work.. at the very least it's enough of an addition to get things on the table again
 
yeah like paul says, it's enough of a change to table the proposal again
but
doesn't it require a new autoloader ?
 
No.
At least I don't think so.
 
so they are file local ?
 
No, an entry goes in the class/interface/trait table.
 
then it needs to be autoloadable
 
7:02 PM
That doesn't mean we need a new autoloader though..?
 
yeah I guess you get autoloading for free if you put them in the class table ... but that's a significant change, everything in the class table is zend_class_entry ...
 
It would still be a zend_class_entry, probably.
 
that seems kinda nasty to me
a typedef doesn't need any of the stuff that a zce does
 
I'd prefer to do that to proof-of-concept it but refactor it internally if accepted.
@JoeWatkins We already have some of that going on.
 
!!lxr _zend_class_entry
 
7:07 PM
[ /Zend/zend.h#115 ] struct _zend_class_entry {
 
Traits/Interfaces/Classes do not all share the same exact stuff logically, but they do in the zce.
Interfaces can't have properties, for instance.
They can't have some of the trait weirdness stuff either.
 
true, but they can use the majority of the members of the struct, what you propose means using just flags, name, info struct and interfaces ... that's a very small minority of the fields
 
2 mins ago, by Levi Morrison
I'd prefer to do that to proof-of-concept it but refactor it internally if accepted.
 
but you know what will happen, dmitry/nikita will say "that's nasty" and a bunch of people will follow their lead, because they can't hear over the big voices
 
As long as Nikita and Dmitry are made aware of the plan I don't think they'd complain about that on list.
We've used this strategy in the past.
 
7:11 PM
dmitry is quite the tactician and will say whatever is necessary if he still doesn't like the feature
 
Dmitry has rewritten all of my contributions I think.
 
yeah he does that ... to make things "better" ...
 
Well in at least one case I think he made it worse but much later he made it better ^_^
 
it maybe worth reading through the last conversation and picking out the contentious points and dealing with them from the outset ... if we can prepare good arguments to refute the main objections, and then tack this on, I'll work on it a bit, and then bob will make it good ...
tbh I can't remember what those objections were, we never even got as far as intersections ... I remember that ...
 
Partly it was moved up faster than it should have ben because some people were way too aggressive about nullable types...
 
7:16 PM
was that me ?
 
Partly, but not just you.
I know I'm slow about things but it's not just because I'm too busy to work on it.
It's also because designing these things well is important or we end up with features like traits.
Traits should be a great and wonderful feature, but there are so many things wrong (or if not wrong then weird) with them they are generally considered to be a bad thing.
 
who is this dmitry/nikita persons you speak of?
 
I can't really remember the details of what happened ... but do remember something being in the way of something else, and that the patch was ready for a while ...
bob and I put many many many hours into the implementation of it ... if I seemed rushed it's because I considered it production ready, and didn't want our time to be wasted ...
but happy to take things at whatever pace is necessary to get the feature in now ...
 
Anonymous
@DaveRandom you trust me with authentication ? :p or do you just mean the front-end stuff? If so, any spec?
 
@corey dmitry works at zend, and nikita is one of our most valuable programmers and eventually will be our in house master physicist ...
 
Anonymous
7:22 PM
@DaveRandom ahahaha you prick <3
 
@corey Profiles on people.php.net for Dmitry and Nikita.
 
@JoeWatkins oh gotcha. By saying 'our', do you work at zend as well?
or are you simply referring to this chat.
 
@corey He means PHP itself.
 
many of us work on php @corey
 
understood that makes sense
I develop in PHP everyday, I haven't contributed much to the PHP build, or php.net.
 
7:24 PM
wat wat aws?
 
gc
 
@RonniSkansing deploying code or assets to the cloud is a bit like riding on the back of a leopard ... real fast, until it eats you for lunch ...
 
user895378
Amazon S3 has never suffered an outage. Period!
 
I like my servers on the ground, and I like my sysadmins to be bearded super geeks, sporting some of their lunch in their beard ...
 
user895378
7:29 PM
The internet is really winning today with regard to AWS awesomeness.
 
so much win
 
@rdlowrey Ha!
@rdlowrey Is Grovo affected by the AWS outage?
 
user895378
yup
 
user895378
good opportunity to find out how resilient some of our services are in the face of AWS issues, though
 
Yeah. It just messes up schedules and whatnot ^_^
 
7:32 PM
a good opportunity ...
 
We have exactly one service affected by the aws outage: we have a script that periodically checks to see if our website is visible from off of BYU campus and that's hosted on AWS.
So... not a big loss :D
 
is that the silver lining in the cloud ? and can you sell some of that silver ?
I might buy some to decorate my real servers ...
do we know any details about what has actually happened yet ?
 
Not that I know of.
 
I wonder what could have taken it down
 
I dump s3 files an ovh server. aws guys cant even give an ETA so not sure if I need to redirect images traffic for some time.
 
7:37 PM
hostile maybe
but then I wonder what sort of hostility could do that ...
 
goog
 
@JoeWatkins DDOS by Internet of Things devices that are insecure?
Or do you mean who?
 
yeah, who
unfortunately my car does not depend on s3, so I have to get wife from work now ... lata all ...
 
7:53 PM
laters yo
 
8:09 PM
wouldn't it be funny if GC and Azure went down too? just to watch the internet burn.
 
aww, it's impacting travis ci. now I care :(
 
i hope gc doesn't go down
 
sorry.Can I ask questions ?
 
This S3 outage seems to be causing a lot of ruckus.
 
Since the problem is in the eastern US, I have chosen to blame Trump.
2
 
8:20 PM
@DaveRandom +1
> 11:37 AM PST We can confirm high error rates for requests made to S3 in the US-EAST-1 Region. We've identified the issue and are working to restore normal operations.
Alright, it's been almost an hour now.... where we at on this?
 
@DaveRandom Can you back that by some alternative facts?
 
It's amazing how half the web is now responding with timeout errors as a result of this one single point of failure :/
The irony
 
i think you meant "the stupidity"
but i get your point
and its actual irony
 
I mean, a service that is meant to prevent SPF, has just become the web's largest SPF. That's poetic irony in my book.
 
SLA is gone for sure right ?
 
8:29 PM
flock to "the cloud", fail to actually understand how it works, and end up all using the same AZ, which happens to be as stable as a geriatric on a mechanical bull
 
apparently yes, customers affected should be eligible for 10%
but you have to actually claim it from what i've read - it isn't automatic
 
My personal aws account isn't effected luckily, since I'm in us-west :)
 
and i can't upload an image
 
But look at the all the companies that clearly don't have replication in other regions chortles
 
8:31 PM
because its on imgur
which is probably on fucking S3
anyway. this is basically how I imagine US East 1 now: gallery.mdbnet.net/albums/Misc/Screen%20Shots/Simpsons/…
the bigger part is, how many use AWS in other regions, but use AWS services that ultimately rely on US East to function
 
replication is not cheap. :|
 
netflix is on s3 too.
 
Dropbox too ?
 
@Vamsi how expensive is not being able to serve customers
 
Half the sites I use are now reporting errors as a result of this outage.
 
8:36 PM
this is almost as good (in a schadenfreude sense) as when GitHub is down and a million developers claim to not be able to work.
this one trumps it though, because GH use s3, so those devs are complaining NOW too
 
atleast with github, most of the devs will have local copies
 
tell that to apparently 90% of the devs who read/comment on HN
watch them lose their fucking minds
 
i've experienced no issues. what connections are experiencing s3 connection issues?
 
@DaveRandom you're the windows guy, right?
 
no the windows guy is bill gates
 
8:41 PM
windows? not really. I am running windows right now on this laptop yes. 90% of my server are centos.
 
Credit Request and Payment Procedures :
"your request logs that document the errors and corroborate your claimed outage (any confidential or sensitive information in these logs should be removed or replaced with asterisks).
"
 
@FlorianMargaine I... maybe... depends what you want...
@LeviMorrison The failing Amazon data center engineers are paid $1500 by Obama every time service is interrupted. Sad!
 
@DaveRandom This outage is... yuge!
 
Anonymous
@DaveRandom stop paying attention to others and answer me, I'm superior :(
 
sorry I missed it
tbh the authentication is the main bit I want someone to do
 
Anonymous
8:49 PM
Yeah @PeeHaa said he'd do that
 
because I would very much like that for Jeeves
 
Anonymous
But as for front-end spec? What does it need to do?
 
ok, here is fucking irony to the max.
 
Anonymous
Irony to the max, yo
 
try to read up on minio.io
 
8:51 PM
@JayIsTooCommon Well @PaulCrovella suggested something that may be more sensible in general, a github repo with maybe a json file in or something that people can just PR
 
basically, s3 you can run yourself
try to read docs
unavailable because their docs are on heroku
which relies on s3
 
But then also I would like a shiny web interface... so really it depends if you can be bothered
 
Anonymous
If you can tell me what the interface needs to do, I can tell you :p
 
it needs to pop
 
Anonymous
Side note, never properly used Lxr. Might be a pit fall
 
8:53 PM
> > I'm getting {"errorCode" : "InternalError"} in the browser
> We have the best error pages don't we folks?
 
it could be ExistentialError
 
@JayIsTooCommon What we are managing is checkouts of git repositories. They are all under /srv/sources. So basically it would be a web UI that would, eventually, invoke git clone <repo url> <target dir name>. It's a little more complex than that but in some ways you don't need to worry about it because it will be talking to a back-end web service rather than invoking it directly.
Honestly, for me job zero is to make the whole auth thing work
 
@DaveRandom Just make sure it handles timeouts and other failures in some sensible way :D
 
Well yes there's that, and also there will eventually be two back-end boxes so we need to handle that somehow... although @LeviMorrison I was wondering if we could just have one "master" back-end and rsync to the other one
done in such a way that you can change the master fairly easily, obviously
 
Eh... defeats the purpose have having two in this case (redundancy).
leader isn't working and follower just copies the not working bits so neither works.
 
8:59 PM
@DaveRandom build-related stuff
 
Also, have we confirmed that it's basically the indexing causing OOM erors?
 
Well, so far I haven't managed to replicate the OOM error
even while hhvm was indexing everything kept working
 
@DaveRandom do you think this kind of stuff is possible on windows? news.php.net/php.internals/98362
 
What I do know is that the error you see is in the web app - it is the web app that is actually running out of memory, I can hypothesise that this happens while indexing is running but without looking at the box I don't know. It could also be that the version of OpenGrok we are running doesn't have the same issue as lxr.php.net, and it could be that the java version we are running has fixed an issue.
All I know is that I have yet to stress it enough to fall over
@FlorianMargaine that's a little bit out of my scope but it is certainly possible to embed arbitrary data in windows binaries, yes
e.g. most exes and a lot dlls carry embedded icons, and you can embed textual key/value maps as well somehow
don't ask me how this is done at the compiler level because I don't know
@LeviMorrison this wouldn't be an issue. What I was thinking of is using rsync specifically to keep /srv/sources (the git sources) and /var/opengrok (where opengrok keeps its index files and web caches). The slave would every hour ask the master for the latest copy of those dirs only. If that operation fails, the slave will become the master. When the old master is brought up again, it will be the slave.
it would save a lot of processing
 
9:17 PM
@DaveRandom probably using some tool like objdump
 
> Under certain conditions, attackers can exploit the weakness to pipe powerful commands to a Web server's backend database.
that writer sure knows how to speak of stuff they don't know about in epic terms
 
@DaveRandom We'd be out of a master for up to an hour?
I mean... that's probably acceptable but...
 
@PaulCrovella I have no fucking idea what that even means.
 
@LeviMorrison well reindexing is done hourly anyway
 
9:21 PM
@PaulCrovella something tells me they saw an example of concatenated statement and remembered the $container_ids as something
 
worst-case scenario is that a commit takes 2 hours to appear on lxr
although also we could probably stand to increase the polling frequency anyway
especially with the rsync approach, you could do it every 5 minutes because most of the time there would just be nothing to do
I looked at doing it with git hooks but I don't think it makes sense
 
Maybe it makes sense to take the 2 servers and divide them into 3.
Two web servers and one processing server.
 
"create a feature found in the PHP programming language" ... how exactly does one create a feature found in a language? I can't even begin to decipher those semantics.
 
perhaps he's saying that an attacker needs to write up an rfc and get it passed by internals
 
And how exactly it is that $container_ids is a feature of PHP, I have no idea.
@PaulCrovella Ahh, that would be one dedicated attacker.
 
9:28 PM
Maybe it is Yasuo???
 
So tl;dr; wordpress sucks?
Is that the gist of it?
 
Anonymous
@Sherif what?? Don't be silly, it's so popular! It can't suck
 
@LeviMorrison I also wondered about this. It would also let us have more than one instance potentially, I feel like it would probably make sense to have amp stuff and php-src stuff in not the same place
 
@DaveRandom @LeviMorrison what's the problem at hand?
 
@FlorianMargaine Indexing commits is expensive (particularly on our shoddy VMs) and so we want to avoid doing it on the same machines that serve the users.
And also doing it more than once.
 
9:31 PM
There's a new OpenGrok version which will hopefully drastically improve indexing time and resources, in our case
I've not rebuilt the docker image yet
 
@LeviMorrison can't you apply some cgroup restriction?
 
@FlorianMargaine Yes.
But we're already VMs in VMs so... just redivide the VMs instead of mucking with cgroups?
 
VMs in VMs?
 
Pretty much, yeah.
 
ah, docker?
I don't consider that VMs :P
 
9:36 PM
No, we are running docker in a VM in a VM.
 
kvm in kvm?
 
I actually tried running a VM in a VM once. Turns out intel doesn't support virtualization inside virtualization.
 
how unreasonable of them
 
inorite
I can't remember, specifically why I wanted to do that, but I wasn't aware it wasn't even possible until then.
 
I don't seem to be able to get tomcat to run over about 700MB memory @LeviMorrison, that's with some pretty serious ab abuse
It never hits OOM, other weird stuff starts happening like file locking issues etc at very high (100+) concurrency, but it never actually dies
 
10:05 PM
@Sherif what?
that doesn't sound right
 
@NikiC To be more clear: you can't use intel VT-x inside a virtualized environment.
 
@Sherif even on recent cpus?
Pretty sure I remember something about hardware support for shadowing
 
@NikiC I don't know about recent. The last time I tried this was a few years ago.
After doing some research, I found that intel just doesn't support it.
 
okay, wiki says vmcs shadowing is supported as of haswell
 
@DaveRandom tomcat can never OOM if you configure it right...
 
10:12 PM
@NikiC So it is possible now?
good to know
> model name : Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-3770 CPU @ 3.40GHz
Ahh, that was right before haswell
makes sense
 
10:34 PM
aws lol
 
Wes
11:14 PM
\o
 
@Dereleased go back in time to when he posted and try again
 
If you use ctrl+d in PhpStorm for duplicated more than one line. .. the new line overlaps the old one. Same for You guys? how to overcome it?
 
@DaveRandom So... I can provision new ones with only 1G of RAM?
 
11:31 PM
@LeviMorrison if we use them a web servers only and do indexing somewhere else, that seems reasonable based on what I am seeing
 
@DaveRandom Alright. Which one shall I bring down first?
 
Well the only one that's actually live atm is opengrok01, so kill 02 first
 
@DaveRandom This one: 64.137.216.149?
 
yes, kill 64.137.216.149
 
Do you know if indexing uses multiple cores, @DaveRandom?
 
11:37 PM
yes, it's written by Java people so they Thread All The Things
actually the vast bulk of the time indexing is spend invoking external programs anyway (git, ctags)
I'll rebuild that one in the morning with the newest opengrok release, and switch to using that as the only live one, if we have no problems after a couple of days then you can kill 01
 
Soon (tm) we should have a new, less beefy machine for you to test it on.
Assuming I can remember how to set these up...
 
Cool well I probably won't get to it until ~lunch tomorrow anyway, so no rush :-)
 
@DaveRandom Server 64.137.246.23 is up but I haven't set up authentication yet.
 
I use PHPStorm but it lags
 
@LeviMorrison OK I've updated the DNS for opengrok02
@corey yeh it's pretty resource hungry, not a lot you can do about that
 

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