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10:06 PM
one more mail by Lester and I might rip my eyes off
 
!!urban known idiot
 
[ [Known Idiot](http://known-idiot.urbanup.com/7138912) ] A person who is known for being wrong about everything that is worth having an opinion about.

If you have a plan you want to follow you should ask their opinion about the plan. If they hate it, then you should probably go ahead and implement the plan. If they love it, then you need to go back to the drawing board as your plan will have deficiencies that you haven't been able to see, but the Known Idiot will have detected and loved.
 
/he's actually not, and very rarely has a point.
//just not in general
 
10:21 PM
I'm amused how we were very shortly at 0 PRs and now we're back at 4 PRs :-D \cc @Trowski
 
I have ~1000, want some? :D
 
@Ocramius for the event-loop repo? yeah, always :-P … as long as it's an improvement
 
haha, wish so :P
 
hehe
 
Hello all. I need some help. I know how to do coding in VBA and I know how to make static pages with bootstrap and js, however, i do not know how to do server side stuff. Can some one please explain to me how exactly to get something like almsaeedstudio.com/themes/AdminLTE/index2.html to function properly so it can accept new users from my team and update/synchronize information across our each of our accounts?
Do i need to have a framework of some sort? Do we need to have a server where this file sits? I'm quite a beginner in this area and just need an explination of how it works, obviously not for you to code it for etc. I don't mind having a one on one with someone or we can just do it here in this room. Thank you so much in advance.
 
@Wes edit this to have a clickbaity title ^^
 
@wes, odd.... i didn't know the PHP Dev team were also the owners of my company.... what a coincidence!
 
Wes
@bwoebi a what? :B
 
@Wes ...
@Wes Like "PHP 7.1 finally released!"
just more dramatized
reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/4ku1gq/… @Ocramius … oh … I've already wondered why I got like 9 new followers within a few hours…
 
@bwoebi I'm good at spamming.
 
10:34 PM
…at spamming followers? yeah ^^
 
Wes
user image
13
 
:-D
 
Wes
:P
 
I noticed the S/N ratio on the typed properties thread became poor very quickly...
 
It's typical internals.
We wait a two days until it's all calmed down, decide privately on a solution and then go back.
 
10:38 PM
@bwoebi My registry PR might as well be closed (or highly modified)
 
@Trowski Yeah, I've just marked it as deferred. Let's close it when we have an actual solution.
 
@bwoebi No... any solution external to the loop object has the issue of not knowing when the registry can be freed.
 
@Trowski right.
I've tried that for Amp
but never merged it as I didn't like it too much
It's more work than expected to create event loop tests… phew…
 
A trait that loop drivers can use is probably the best solution.
 
@Trowski I agree.
 
10:43 PM
s/best/least objectionable
 
it's both^^
 
@Wes lol
 
Wes
seriously, the amount of rfcs proposed for 7.1 is catastrophically low, and it's getting even lower...
 
I think the amount of additions is just fine
if we get typed properties, that's awesome enough already :P
I can get rid of half my command handling logic
 
@Wes Is it? Feels to me like lots of RFCs
We have eight language level RFCs implemented already
 
Wes
10:48 PM
it's not great stuff, except changes to the type system... i had too high expectations maybe after the awesomeness of 7.0
 
And I think typed properties is still going in
 
Wes
hope so..
 
@Wes Well, PHP 7.0 kinda was a major version :P
 
Uhm @Wes do you want to have world-changing changes on every version?
 
Wes
well yeah but as long you don't affect compatibility with existing code you can have lots of featured added
 
10:51 PM
PHP never shall be that full of features that you take ages to even learn its basics
We've already begun to introduce unnecessary ops like <=> :x
 
Next up: immutability <_<
 
I really, really regret to not have campaigned more against it.
 
Wes
@bwoebi compared to drafts and stuff "under discussion" what will get into 7.1 is less than one might expect, just this...
 
and yeah, shorthand operators are kinda useless :-\
can be replaced with opcode-level optimized functions
 
@bwoebi ehem ... <=>=
 
10:52 PM
@Ocramius good luck reintroducing PHP 4 classes
@NikiC STFU!!!!!! :-P
 
Which one is correct?
- He doesn't has a bad meaning in his mean.
- His mean isn't containing a bad thing.
- He has a good point not bad.
- He means well.
- He has a well meaning.
 
@Shafizadeh 4th
 
Ah ok thx .. just doesn't need the word of "has"? Like this: "He has means well"
 
@Shafizadeh mean is a verb (and may also be a noun)
 
@Shafizadeh "mean" is a verb, so you can use it directly
 
10:54 PM
Ah .. I see, thx guys
 
"He has means" is also valid, but means something totally different. "means" in this case is a noun
 
ah ..
 
To make it more confusing there's also an adjective "mean", with yet another meaning :D
And there's also a noun "mean" (without the s), also different meaning
 
Wes
Apr 27 at 21:33, by Wes
"quite" is my new favorite english word. it means both "absolutely/totally" and "relatively/reasonably" etc. your language is so strange
 
So, lots of choices :D
 
10:58 PM
@Wes It's actually pretty high.
Remember 7.1 is a minor release.
 
@LeviMorrison Ah, Levi's here. Let's annoy him with union types again!
 
Wes
@LeviMorrison i don't see why it can't have more things, tho
 
@Wes sure, it could … If there were people proposing and accepting them
 
@bwoebi Should Loop have storeState and fetchState methods? Probably will only be used by libs...
That being said, Loop will largely only be used by libs.
 
@Trowski probably not.
 
11:03 PM
Except for Loop::execute() of course.
 
@Trowski we probably should retain the \Amp\ functions (i.e. \Amp\defer(), \Amp\repeat() etc.) as we need to coroutine-wrap the callbacks
 
@bwoebi Yeah, I did something similar in Icicle. I think those should live in amphp/amp then.
 
@Trowski they should live in the same repo than all the Amp specific core-functions
 
@NikiC :D
 
Same repo than?
 
11:05 PM
which would be amphp/amp; one repo for all of awaitable impl, observable impl, coroutine impl and loop utility funcs
yeah
 
Ok
I have the coroutine impl in awaitable, I felt that made sense (since it is an awaitable built from awaitables)
 
Wes
@bwoebi okay, i thought you were saying it should not have many rfc's :D
 
@Ocramius "Is the added value really worth all that work?" - it stops my bosses boss from arguing with me?
 
@Trowski right. And actually observable and loop utility funcs should be in that same repo too
@Wes many RFCs is not a problem. A flood of useless features is.
 
@Danack dunno :P
 
11:07 PM
@bwoebi If we did that, then lets just rename amphp/awaitable to amphp/amp :-D
 
Wes
@bwoebi indeed, contrarily to what you might think... :P
 
I will tell you stories at PHPSC.....
 
@Trowski that's what I suggested from start on ;-)
 
STORIES
 
@bwoebi That sounds fine to me. Not sure on the logistics of that...
 
11:08 PM
@Danack tel them NOW. HERE. We ALL want to HEAR them.
 
@Sara it involves migrating to wordpress.....as a solution to a problem.
 
WHAT
WHAT!?!
 
reasons why I drink, number 4.
 
@Danack … and the problem is being already on wordpress?
@Trowski logistics?
 
@Danack "This one time.... I got really drunk... and then I woke up, and I was running WordPress."
 
11:09 PM
@bwoebi Would you just rename the old amphp/amp?
 
@Trowski no, why? It'd be just amp v2.0?
 
@bwoebi No. There is a real problem in that the company was formed by buying up lots of smaller companies, and so there are lots of silos of information.....which is a real problem....but hallucinating solutions is not so good.
 
@bwoebi Right... I'm not thinking enough with git. I can just make another branch in amphp/amp and move all the code from amphp/awaitable there.
 
yip.
 
I'd prefer that, seems much cleaner.
 
11:12 PM
@Ocramius also:
4 hours ago, by Danack
So....anyone know how to get it through a colleagues head that 'unit tests' of controller code, that require touching an actual database are a bunch of shit?
3 mins ago, by Danack
reasons why I drink, number 4.
s/4/3
 
@Danack You can choose between /dev/{zero, null, {u,a,}random} as persistent storage.
 
@Danack that part is quite typical
at least they write tests...
You should have seen the project of DVSA when I hopped in...
QA testers that knew only some java were writing Behat test code...
 
@Ocramius Well .....no. Of the maybe 50k lines of code, approximately 0 have uni tests.
 
yeh, because you know what a unit test is
 
No - no tests.
 
11:14 PM
ah...
ok, nvm then :|
do I smell doom?
 
I just had a terrible nightmare. I was a php-src committer and had been for 4 years. I contributed to PHP. I had, used PHP. That was just a bad dream, right? …right?
 
@Andrea no, you just had a buffer overflow
 
Not doom, but opportunity. We're starting a (emergency) project that we're using silex for, because of reasons. The actual conversation today was about how silex doesn't seem to make it easy to switch out real implementations for test double implementations.
 
@Ocramius oh thank god. for a moment there I actually believed I liked PHP and had written RFCs.
 
The cow-orkers response - which I was dumb-founded by, was "we may as well run the 'unit-tests' against the database, as the database code needs to work anyway".
 
11:17 PM
ok, gonna use that from now on
 
@Andrea Maybe in a parallel universe
PHP is for the slaves of Putin as everyone knows...
 
@bwoebi github.com/amphp/observable/tree/refactor Naming is negotiable, I just picked some names.
I kept the iterator/observer model instead of a subscriber with callbacks. I think it's a more intuitive interface for using the observable in coroutines.
Simplifies the backpressure implementation too.
 
@bwoebi PHP is a dead language and only usable because VKontakte reimplemented it for themselves, everyone knows that…
 
@Andrea yip
@Trowski both shall be possible IMO (natively).
 
Backpressure can be used by yielding the awaitable returned by emit, otherwise emitters can simply ignore it and keep emitting.
@bwoebi I can add a subscribe method, but what would you provide this method? An object with 3 methods (onNext, onComplete, onError) or three callbacks?
 
11:25 PM
@Trowski uhm… it'd be just provided the data each time new data is emitted?
 
@bwoebi The observer eventually completes or fails though.
 
@Trowski right, that's why you shall be able to ->subscribe() (in Amp it's called watch()) and to ->when()
 
@bwoebi Ok, so subscribe just gives emitted values, and when() would invoke on complete/fail. Hmm...
 
yes
That's how it currently works in Amp
and that's what I meant initially
perhaps you misunderstood…
that's what I meant with low level API
 
Observables usually have one method.
 
11:28 PM
@Trowski hmm?
 
One method for subscribing, that's where I was confused.
 
Now… I have a problem…
I have written the tests
 
The observer could use awaitables returned from subscribe callbacks for backpressure... though that's a little weird.
 
but no (finished) implementation to test against^^
@Trowski well, the backpressure is optional
 
@bwoebi I should update the current implementation to match the latest updates.
 
11:30 PM
often you don't want backpressure
 
@bwoebi Yeah, so callbacks added with subscribe could have no backpressure. Only observers would have backpressure.
 
@Trowski I meant rather that you can use the Awaitables returned from them
Just that you typically don't return Awaitables there
so that it actually isn't weird
 
@bwoebi Ah, ok.
Seems a little odd to have two interfaces to do the same thing...
 
@Trowski ehm… with awaitables we also have coroutines + callback
we have exactly the same here.
 
Not exactly, the coroutine just uses when to implement what it does.
If I removed getObserver from the Observable and made it a separate object that takes an Observable in the constructor it would make more sense.
Which I could do through subscribe/when.
I'm not sure if I agree with Observable having a when method. They aren't awaitables.
 
11:37 PM
probably, yes.
@Trowski They actually are.
Observables typically end somewhen
and the ending is actually awaitable
at least as long as you don't put any backpressure on them
 
@bwoebi True. Though the addition of a completion value was my own thing (which I've found very useful)
 
@Trowski And we do too. (find it useful)
 
@bwoebi Backpressure shouldn't matter to how it ends, just when it ends.
 
@Trowski that's what I meant
 
Ah, ok
How would unsubscribing from an observable work? Generally a consumer would call both subscribe and when...
 
11:40 PM
We're using it e.g. in Artax where we notify of each step (e.g. for progress display), but we resolve the Awaitable (aka Promise here) with a result value properly.
 
But callbacks can't be removed from when.
 
If you are not interested in it, ignore it.
@Trowski You don't.
If you need unsubscribing, use the other API.
 
@bwoebi You mean the Observer?
 
yes
@Trowski just like you cannot unsubscribe from when() (e.g. on a timeout).
 
So you think getObserver should remain on Observable?
 
11:42 PM
@Trowski not necessarily
 
@bwoebi If I can't unsubscribe callbacks registered with subscribe, then an unused Observer would keep getting values, which might be fine, but it would consume memory/cpu.
I'm not sure how useful unsubscribing really would be in an app.
 
@Trowski it would. But how often do you actually unsubscribe?
 
Feels a little like promise cancellation :-D
 
Right.
 
That sounds reasonable then. I'll update again then.
 
11:45 PM
There's no actual unsubscribe, there's just a Generator not listening anymore to the observable
under the hood you may optimize that, but that's how it shall look from the exterior
 
Yep, so there would be no backpressure anymore.
 
@Trowski after the Generator ended? no.
 
Under the hood there will be a separate object within the observer so it can be notified if the observer is destroyed and stop waiting for calls to check for valid values.
 
@Trowski possibly. That's up to you now :-)
 
What I have shouldn't require too many changes. Back to work...
 
11:53 PM
@Trowski I've just realized that a HTTP response is nothing else than an Emitter … You emit headers, then body (with eventual backpressure on TCP level) and then complete it (or fail it).
So, perhaps Aerys\Response shall implement Emitter … ^^
 

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