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12:00 PM
@rdlowrey ...I hate ext/pgsql. It is horribad.
No PQsetSingleRowMode() :-(
Come to that, no userland PQsetnonblocking(), it just magically switches it all the time
Also no way to install a custom notice reciever
 
@DaveRandom not sure.... incident portal tells me it will be fixed @1800 O.o
 
Wes
i need to buy a bigger coffee maker. #meanwhileinitaly #meanwhileinvatican #explainthisphoto
 
Lol
Holy barista!
 
12:10 PM
@Gordon LOL, sounds like a good agile theme song
We usually play some dumb song to notify everyone in the office it's stand-up time, this might make a good candidate. :D
Now that's useful.
 
@Oldskool you could also use Pusherman by the same Mayfield
 
12:36 PM
@Gordon That dude sure like his pushes.
 
@Oldskool liked. he's dead. but he's not just some dude. he was one of the most influential soul singers of his time
he even performed in dutch television. I mean, how much moar famouz can you get?
 
@Gordon I get why, it sounds really good.
@Gordon Oh yeah, you know you've made it when you've been on Dutch TV, because we really like our heroes. Like this guy (subtitled in German for your convenience): youtube.com/watch?v=wLfAGJ5rLQ8
 
I think I got my tethering under control now \o/
 
(you need to enable the subs in YT UI though)
 
@Oldskool never heard of him :D
But I know the Flodders… if that helps anything
 
12:43 PM
lol
 
@Gordon He's a real cult hero in The Netherlands. Everybody has heard of him, mostly laughed at him, but heard of him nontheless. I actually respect the guy, even though not many people take him seriously he keeps popping up on the internet and in TV talkshows every now and then. He just does his thing and doesn't give a **** what everybody thinks of him.
His work is slightly improving over time though.
Not very good yet, but if he keeps it up, he might get a small hit someday.
@Gordon LOL they are classic!
 
lol sjors
He's an actor right?
 
Haven't had any new films/series since 1990 or so, but still very entertaining.
 
Right?
RIGHT!?
 
@PeeHaa are you?
 
12:44 PM
@PeeHaa At first I thought so too, but now I'm not so sure anymore. I mean he keeps releasing songs.
 
@Gordon yes a very bad one :P
 
@PeeHaa there is your answer :D
 
I mean, it's an "OFFICIAL" video.
Doesn't get any more serious than that.
 
Yeah that's the first proper production
 
And I heard him talk on TV that he's also working on a summer hit.
So he seems pretty serious.
 
12:47 PM
Kinda... seems terrible
 
@Fabor It kinda is... :D
 
@Fabor It is :)
 
But it's already better than his previous work (see the earlier video I mentioned to Gordon, in the end he does another "song").
At around 5:00
 
If people care; which is unlikely, to look at what makes a good rapper, they should check out this video or rapping deconstructed.
 
12:53 PM
@Fabor I can't listen to music without deconstructing it
 
@Danack REST for writes is pretty much an over-complication in most scenarios. I would reason about business value of having an endpoint as RESTful rather than reasoning about correctness. Is the added value really worth all that work?
 
It's something that happens automatically and is really annoying
 
Yeah, you can almost ruin things by knowing too much about them.
Like watching cheesy hacking done in movies.
 
Super annoying
 
@Ocramius REST forces the client to have the same state management as the server
Which can be a good thing under certain circumstances
But not when you need atomic writing of one value of a resource
 
12:56 PM
@MadaraUchiha which is bullshit anyway. The client shouldn't concern itself with how data is stored on the server, it should just get a representation fit for reads
 
Which is the more common case nowdays.
 
Most RESTful applications with RESTful compliant clients end up being a mess of impossible to decypher anemic domains
where you basically re-built a database on top of REST, and security issues are everywhere :P
That's why I talk about BUSINESS VALUE, and not correctness. We can talk about how much one can perform onanisms on "oh my god this is so restful" for entire days, but whether it's actually useful to produce money is a completely different story
7
 
@Ocramius It's not just money value.
 
It mostly is
otherwise, why are you building it in first place?
 
There is a strong correlation between money value and consistent programming practices
@Ocramius lasting money value
 
Anonymous
1:02 PM
Anyone used Google's API PHP client library? Documentation is shit and i've hit a wall.
 
A product that provides a positive bottom line for a long while is better than something brilliant the works for only a year or two and then becomes unmanageable.
And REST fails exactly at that
 
@MadaraUchiha and I'm telling you that what I see from RESTful API and API consumers is applications with extreme state coupling, extremely reduced domain interactions, extremely anemic domain and very complex upgrade paths, high risk of security issues and very low maintainability
 
It provides order and consistency, but it doesn't scale well with complexity.
 
What in all of that produces money? I saw a lot of the so-called "consistency" in APIs producing terrible impact on applications
consistency is perfect when writing on a shallow data-structure, much like a file-system
 
@Ocramius You don't need to convince me there, I don't think REST is a good choice for most of today's cases.
 
1:03 PM
but domains are not consistent
@MadaraUchiha what I'm saying is that REST is only good for reads, basically
 
@JayIsTooCommon Which API? There's like a dozen Google has
 
@Ocramius Pretty much, yes.
Creation, too, maybe.
But making edits to resources in REST is a nightmare.
 
nah, because things don't get "created" in the world anyway
they get built, assembled, shipped, etc
;-)
 
you guys are weird
 
Anonymous
@Machavity Sorry, Drive & sheets. Pain in the ass
 
@Ocramius Cyriak is the greatest.
 
@Ocramius if that was a question, you just self-answered it by knowing that video
@Ocramius I can recommend the book REST in practise.
 
I got good mileage out of the RESTful Web Services Cookbook myself.
 
@JoeriSebrechts the one by DHH? found it very horrible
 
Anonymous
1:14 PM
!!version
 
I agree that the DHH one isn't terribly useful
 
Just told a guy talking on his phone in the library to shut the fuck up, and everyone applauded me, so I told them to shut the fuck up too.
3
 
regarding edits to REST resources: there is nothing difficult about it if you model the right resources for the state changes. It gets a lot easier if you model them explicitly over the resource, e.g. POST UserBan instead of PATCH USER with whatever diff notation you are using. And if you do that, you end up with lots of event resources instead, which also goes nicely with DDD
 
^ Sounds like the truth.
 
1:18 PM
@Oldskool Oh come on. It's not like one person ragequitting NPM can screw the whole system
Oh wait
 
@Machavity LOL
 
@NikiC should I stop vote ?
 
do we have anyone french here?
 
@FlorianMargaine
Not sure if anyone else tbh
@Fabor is fake-French
 
Le @PeeHaa sounds french enough
 
1:20 PM
Oh @FélixGagnon-Grenier is French-Canadian (I think)
 
and yay for random pings
 
lo
 
@DaveRandom that's fake american, isnt it?
 
It's sitting on the fence between fake American and fake French
 
1:22 PM
@Gordon does it contain anything that isn't already being preached by CQRS folks or DZuelke for the last 6 years?
 
@Ocramius no
 
> Read it already. And by read, I mean written.
 
@JoeWatkins it might be better
I have been waiting with voting until the implementation stabilizes
Don't like voting on a moving target
 
typed props? <_<
 
yeah
 
1:27 PM
@nikita2206 ftr, I've removed my vote because I'm no longer as certain as I was. I may put it back in the same place but I need to think about it some more first.
 
oh how I love provoking the twitters
If you were to be presented with a REST API for reads, and a SOAP API for writes: how would you react? (actually building that atm)
 
I believe I would commit considerable resources to finding out where you live
 
lol
 
@DaveRandom that is actually easy to figure out
but talking seriously... it is becoming more viable than JSON-RPC
 
1:31 PM
In a way I'd actually rather be presented with some kind of home-grown solution, because SOAP is that terrible.
I could live with different APIs for reads and writes though, probably.
I was going to say "give me an SDK" but then I realised I've never once used an SDK without pulling it apart and rewriting at least 50% of it first.
 
Yeh, I do that all the time too :-\
mostly due to lack of strictness
 
@NikiC yeah, put it on hold for now ...
 
@Ocramius I would think you didnt understand how to model proper resources, but let you run into your own doom because that's the only way to learn
 
An action is not a resource, tho
I looked at various ways to push commands to a command bus via REST-ish APIs, but then I'd be re-inventing all the validation around it anyway, having a custom transport layer again
infoq.com/articles/rest-api-on-cqrs got near to a workable solution, but it is just making it more complex for the sake of making it more complex
 
@Ocramius think of it as an event instead of an action
 
1:37 PM
Fake french indeed.
 
Events are what my system produces, not what flows into my system
some external interactions are actually events, but that's not what user interactions are. Those are requests to do something
 
@DaveRandom sure
 
@Ocramius UserBan is a fine resource
 
!!version
 
hehe
etsting123
 
You don't push a UserBan, you ask for the system to ban a user, and the system may refuse. Pushing a UserBan is not the same as "banning a user". For example, are you banning the user now, or are you recording a past ban?
 
@DaveRandom Unless I screwed something up @Jeeves is logging eveything now
 
RecordPastUserBan and BanUser are cleaner, more expressive and simpler to understand for both parties, but they are indeed commands, not resources
 
@Ocramius I disagree. That would mean, I cannot do POST User or POST Order either
 
1:42 PM
Is there any harm in compromising on the REST part? I've never seen an API that was pure rest, but at least kept the ease of use of HTTP + JSON or Form-Encoded.
 
in fact, it would mean that I can only read (which is your argument, I know) but that's willfully ignoring half of REST
 
Also, POST /user/:id/ban?start_date=$date&end_date=$date
 
@Gordon no, such an interaction is denied in my system, because there is no concept of creating a user or creating an order. There is though register a user and initiate new order request, for example
those are far from the synopsis of POST User and POST Order
 
@PeeHaa k, I've killed @cv-pls then
 
now, since custom HTTP verbs don't work anywhere (because the HTTP spec is hard for implementations to understand), and it makes no sense to implement those as POST, I only allow posting commands to a single endpoint
 
Yeh, read that when it came out
 
then I dont get why you are not using that.
 
my main point is that interactions are not resources, yet we model interactions as modified resources, then try to infer the interaction from the diff
 
that's where we differ then. IMO, REST models a statemachine over HTTP and when you think of it as that, using interactions as resources is fine
 
I don't infer behavior from state, I POST all interactions to a single endpoint (POST /command), then infer state from the interaction
no, an interaction is not a resource :P a resource is state, an interaction is a desire to mutate state. Without expressing what the interaction is, you may infer the wrong interaction from the state mutation
 
1:55 PM
An interaction carries state, too. You post UserBan { user_id: 42 }. While that is processed the state is pending. I could GET UserBan?user_id=42 and receive UserBan{ user_id: 42, status: pending}
 
a UserBan is a resource, not an interaction
 
obviously, if the action is near instant it might not make sense to allow for GET. but rest doesnt say you have to support all the http verbs on resources anyway
 
you are giving me a UserBan: now I have to decide what to do with it. Is it a ban that needs to be applied to user_id: 42, is it a ban that needs to be logged on user_id: 42?
you just gave me a ban (a new one, via POST), but you didn't tell me what I should do with it
 
@Ocramius that's for your system to decide and unimportant to the client
 
@Gordon and that's where the entire thing crashes, IMO
 
1:57 PM
no, why? POST UserBan means "ban the user with the id in the payload"
 
this kind of hidden assumption, documented somewhere in the API, is what makes REST un-fit for anything that isn't a CRUD domain
@Gordon no, the problem is that this interaction itself needs translation at all times
 
So you are unhappy with the lack of expressiveness of the HTTP verbs then?
 
I need to read all API calls, translate them into actual meaning
Yeah, mostly, and HTTP verbs can't be extended because the ecosystem is more broken than SOAP on .NET :P
 
Oh, the typed properties vote was put on hold. Good job @NikiC :)
 
Wes
why on hold?
 
2:01 PM
an issue with nullable types
 
@Gordon the other article that I linked provides an alternative to HTTP verbs by actually posting commands to the actual resources, then using Content-Type as a clarification of intent. That leads to a very complex API that is waaaaaaaaay too complicated to implement on both sides, and is far from any standard
 
clear and precise technical writing, and arguing a case, is really hard
 
@Ocramius I dont have good links to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_Application_Protocol but this should solve that problem
also HATEOAS should solve it, too. Resources should include hyperlinks to their valid operations, including a description. that way you can discover them easily
 
Those operations would still be limited to the typical verbs, which are ambiguous most of the time
 
@bwoebi I think voting null instead of void should be a totally different RFC and vote.
Even if it's included in this RFC that would probably need 2/3 to overturn a previous RFC.
 
2:16 PM
@LeviMorrison I basically agree; I thought you wanted it the other way round ^^
 
What I want to make sure is that in this RFC standalone null is included to make that RFC a possibility.
 
o/
 
@LeviMorrison so, have both standalone null and void?
 
Yes.
It needs to be available as a type anyway; just don't special case it.
 
@LeviMorrison I agree there
 
2:19 PM
@bwoebi That sounds like a good way to convince people who are undecided to vote against union types
 
Hmm … sounds logical actually … but I think this then rather should be introduced when we get covariance… maybe.
@NikiC It's a separate vote though…
 
evening roomies
 
@NikiC Anyone who votes against the RFC because of that detail is a little… I don't know the right word… picky?
 
Replacing void with null is one thing. Allowing both, or allowing null for parameters and properties is something entirely different
 
Where would null be used other than union types?
 
2:20 PM
@LeviMorrison If an RFC contains one extremely stupid detail, that's quite enough to vote against it
 
That's offensive language.
That's not an extremely stupid detail.
We have to have null as a type anyway.
Permitting it standalone is not extremely stupid.
 
Extremely stupid from the perspective of the voter, of course
 
@LeviMorrison Anyone can vote against anything for any reason
 
@Andrea or no reason!
 
I'm still mildly upset Andrea pushed through the void RFC when I had almost no time to compete against it, especially since she had already abandoned it.
I had also already informally claimed it :(
We wouldn't be in this situation if Andrea could just wait…
 
2:22 PM
Yes, it's my fault, I'm sorry about that
I'm still not entirely sure void was correct
 
I doubt it.
 
@Levi Yea … but you had absolutely no time. :-/
 
@LeviMorrison Don't forget that everyone here is busy, not only you.
If you can't make time for something, that's your problem.
 
@NikiC The degree of business varies though
 
When someone abandons an RFC, someone else picks it up, and then you come back and push it through even though the new person asks you not too… that's a jerk move.
 
2:23 PM
There's a couple of tradeoffs involved, but if an RFC needs to wait for half a year because someone is "busy", that's not acceptable.
 
So yeah. That has little to do with how much time I did or did not have.
 
Oh, Levi, please … discussing this now won't help anything.
 
I'm just bringing it up again because was really underhanded.
 
Arguably.
 
And to be honest, we are all suffering at least a small portion because of that decision, so it's not like it's just me moaning how it affected me personally.
 
2:25 PM
@bwoebi It does. But I do hate this attitude of "I'm busy right now, the world should stop until I have time again"
 
I think I had thought about it a bit when I went and did it
 
@NikiC That means whoever has the most time to work on stuff gets precedence, not based on any actual merit.
 
I can't actually remember quite what I thought at the time, though, because it was seven months ago
 
That's hardly beneficial.
Also, we had nearly an entire year before feature freeze.
There was plenty of time.
Anyway, I need to get back to work.
 
@LeviMorrison How much merit someone brings to the table is often strongly related to how much time they can invest.
 
2:27 PM
@NikiC But not how much time they can invest now.
Long-time contributors are more valuable than a bursty one-timer.
And let's be honest: it's not like void took a significant time investment.
If it was something much larger, like say generics, that would be a different story.
 
void is one of the simplest RFCs I made.
 
@LeviMorrison Oh, so you could have taken one hour to draft a competing RFC? Is that what you're saying?
 
Oh, the RFC yes.
 
6 mins ago, by bwoebi
Oh, Levi, please … discussing this now won't help anything.
 
But that's not what actually takes the time.
 
2:30 PM
@NikiC I don't think you are being helpful…
 
A competing RFC is a giant time sink.
And you know it.
Stop being a dick.
 
@Andrea I am perfectly aware of that. I'm annoyed by this attitude I have seen displayed one time too many.
 
I'm not happy with how I handled things.
 
I have a wife. Two kids. I help tend a third several times a week. I own a home. I work full time. I also try to take classes. I had time for these RFCs during the time frame allotted. What's there to gripe about?
 
Oh damn im stuck in a piece of code :p pastery.net/fjtuhp When I fill in the right test number ( 111-.... ) I am not able to get 'the number matches the one from the databse '.
 
2:35 PM
Just because I'm not young and single and can't work on them whenever immediately means I shouldn't be able to contribute?
 
When I check the code in SQL and enter the code in there i get the record.. so it should say: the number matches the one from the DB
 
Isn't working on them in the allotted time frame enough?
 
@Levi so, to switch topics, shall we now vote at all on separate null or leave it completely out?
 
ah, I searched on SO and found the chatlogs from last year
 
@LeviMorrison the problem is a bunch of RFCs depending on each other and best being voted on sequentially…
 
2:36 PM
Nov 4 '15 at 21:52, by Andrea
the fairest might be to hold a follow-up 2/3 vote to replace void with null
 
@bwoebi Just include null as part of the main RFC; no separate vote.
 
@LeviMorrison standalone null too or not?
 
Oh right, I remember now.
 
@Andrea Don't you think whoever comes first has a significant advantage?
 
@Andrea 50% :-P
 
2:36 PM
I wasn't sure what the fairest way to do a 2-way vote would be.
@LeviMorrison Yes.
 
Hardly fair then, don't you agree?
 
@LeviMorrison Unless I am misremembering the facts, the nullable types RFC did not make PHP 7.0 because your did not have time to pursue it, and asked other peoples not to pursue it until you become free.
Your wish was respected, but the feature was pushed back to PHP 7.1
 
@LeviMorrison I guess you have a point.
Hmm. Give me a moment.
oh, hmm, implementing null as a type hint is more complicated than I thought, actually
 
@Duikboot those first 2 lines don't look right, also you don't seem to be doing anything with $subscriber, you are just calling static methods against the class
 
@LeviMorrison not ok
 
2:50 PM
@JoeWatkins Someone starred it at one point – clearly needed to be said.
In any case I've muted him.
 
who ?
 
Nikita.
 
fixed it
booya
 
pfft, whatever ... we don't talk to each other like that ... and he's right, I don't like this attitude that the world should stop for you either ... we all have a real life, even those that are ten years your junior ...
 
@JoeWatkins I didn't ask the world to stop.
@JoeWatkins Let's be clear here: he was far more rude to me than I was to him.
 
2:56 PM
I'm going to request that everyone ignore their browsers for an hour and come back and discuss this in a way that does not resemble the mailing list. Please.
6
 
I'm not going to argue with you about it ... you did stand in the way of people, I was one of those people, it's not a debate ....
 
And I've muted him so it would go away.
And now you are bringing it up.
 
@Levi Not sure who was more rude. But this discussion was unnecessary. Things sometimes need to be said, but shall not be argued around then. If someone is annoyed by something he shall be free to say it. We do, though, not have to escalate it.
 
> We do, though, not have to escalate it.
this, you stop before you find yourself calling people dicks ...
 
right
 
2:59 PM
Did I.... come at a bad time?
 
I was close to kick-muting both Levi and Nikita but refrained from it though … Should probably have done that.
 

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