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1:00 PM
wut
 
so going to unified symbols tree should constants be stored insensitive
 
<?php
define('Wibble', 123, true);
define('Wibble', 456);

var_dump(Wibble);

define('Wibble', 789);

var_dump(Wibble);
?>
int(456)
int(456)
 
I'm afraid of @DaveRandom right now :D
 
If I correctly am understanding what you are saying I would also start to fight
define is case sensitive. Anything else is making it worse
 
so what should be the right direction: classes, functions, constants, namespaces sensitive or insensitive ??
 
I am not sure whether right and possible will work in this case
Right / correct would be to have everything case sensitive
 
ns is part of class name
it all needs to be case insensitive
 
ok, so 2 votes for case sensitive
 
You cannot actually change this, btw
 
@JoeWatkins I'm tryint to introduce not as a part but as a struct
 
1:04 PM
It will never happen
 
you really can't
 
and it's quite promising, because it can lead to introduce new features like private anything etc..
I can
try
 
I think it's worth a go, but you can't change any of the rules we have now ... so it needs to be case insensitive, and needs to handle collisions in a way that is compatible with today
 
I've got implementation
ok, so it should be case-insensitive but constants should have special treatment
 
You can try, and again I would support it 100%. But I have roughly 0% confidence in it actually happening.
 
1:07 PM
I think it might have performance improvements, so there may be more chances than 0% I think
 
Sorry :-(
 
@brzuchal unless you fix the constant redefinition thing first ... which I'm sure would get in because optmiizations
it must be true that we can't perform some optimizations on constants if they are allowed to change
 
constant redefinition thing
 
that's a bug imo
it's stupid
 
I assumed that any symbol cannot be redefined
 
1:09 PM
ah wait, it does hash add
I didn't read it right
so what's this talk of redefinition with define then ?
I tried to follow how that could happen and got there, but it's not there ...
 
@brzuchal there's not much perf improvement… constants are normalized to lowercase at compile-time for hashtable lookup
 
errrm
488#if 0
489	printf("Registering constant for module %d\n", c->module_number);
 
@bwoebi I meant improvements while searching in symbols table - searching in a tree has lower complexity
 
when is it 0?
 
never
it's a fancy way of commenting out stuff
 
1:10 PM
@brzuchal ? … how are constants related to symtable?
 
he doesn't mean symbol table in the php sense bob
 
@JoeWatkins so that is a debug leftover?
 
@JoeWatkins then I don't know what he means
 
@bwoebi I've changed symbol_table to variable_table
 
he wants to merge the hashtables from classes and such into a single structure, called symbol table
 
1:11 PM
@JoeWatkins yeh it's really odd that, is there some reason that people do that instead of block comments?
 
and using symbol_table as a tree with HashTable's to store declarations of function, class, const and namespaces
 
@brzuchal ugh, don't do pointless renames
@brzuchal what for?
 
sanity?
 
for speed up at namespaces comparison at some new features like private classes, etc.
 
@Gordon yep ... it probably said if DO_MY_DEBUGGING while being developed, then got switched to 0 later on ... or was just commented out like that because yolo
 
1:13 PM
sanity
 
Will password_hash always produce a same-sized output using bcrypt?
Inlcuding the algorithm and salt output
 
@brzuchal I do not see how a tree would be faster than a hashtable in general?
 
and few others, I've got them somewhere
 
@DaveRandom I dunno, I find myself doing it sometimes but can't tell you why I don't use comments ...
you don't really comment inside C anyway
you just accept that nobody is going to understand it ... easy ...
 
user3119231
Huh, Jslint says json is valid, error code tells me it isn't. pastebin.com/W41Jkku5
 
1:14 PM
In an environment where you've got 10k of classes, looking for eg. for Zend\Module\SomeComponent\SomeClass would require about 10k iterations in pesimistic case
in a tree where you've got about 20 packages it would be 20 hoops into Zend symbol, then few to Module symbol and ther maybe one to SomeComponent and SomeClass right ??
@bwoebi am I right ?
 
I'm unsure what you're talking about @brzuchal
 
@bwoebi Could you repro the bug @DaveRandom had with corrupted fcall?
 
> In an environment where you've got 10k of classes, looking for eg. for Zend\Module\SomeComponent\SomeClass would require about 10k iterations in pesimistic case
when would this happen ?
 
@kelunik turns out was already fixed :-P
just updated php-uv
 
@JoeWatkins When you look up in a single linked list. :P
 
1:17 PM
just that there's no ll…
 
when you're extending a class in early binding it's looking for a zend_class_entry for extended classes using FQDN in CG(class_table)
 
I'm confused, are you writing a thing that works this way, or you think hashes work that way ?
 
@JoeWatkins when all 10000 are hash collisions \o/
 
@brzuchal right, that's an O(1) lookup
 
How do really HasTable work?
I'm confused right now
:(
 
1:18 PM
not like that
 
@DaveRandom Only if your hash table works with linked lists for collisions.
 
urm urm, I dunno where to point you at ... anyone else?
 
@kelunik even with open addressing you need to loop over all the colliding entries
 
@bwoebi Depending on the items you can use BTrees.
 
1:19 PM
that'll do it
 
@kelunik which is typically quite inefficient in comparison to just linear probing
 
@DaveRandom Did you watch @JoeWatkins's video regarding parallel vs. async?
 
I have watched it before but I will re-watch it later
I do have an understanding of this stuff, btw, I'm trying to get the right words to actually express it as/when necessary
Turns out that English is... hard
 
@DaveRandom thanks I'll read that carefully
 
Anonymous
@DaveRandom For a manc :P
 
1:22 PM
why I oughta
 
!!urban manc
 
[ manc ] Inhabitant of the city of Manchester.
 
I was going to provide zend_namespace_entry and put everything in a symbol tree
:(
 
manjester
mangesture
 
@brzuchal there's really no point in that
 
1:23 PM
It's a thing you do to a girl. "Why don't you man chest her?"
 
lol
 
that video is mostly about pthreads ... this isn't ...
I wonder if I will ever remember markdown for a link the first time ...
 
@brzuchal I mean, when there's such an obvious optimization possible, it usually isn't an optimization at all. There are some people smarter than us who squeezed already a lot out of php-src ;-)
 
@DaveRandom or a boat
 
Whatever floats your girl/boat is what I say
 
1:27 PM
there are 40 thousand lighters on my desk, none of them work
there's 6 ...
there might as well be 40 thousand ...
 
@JoeWatkins Just remember [citation needed](oh no wait, I have a citation and here's a link to it)
@JoeWatkins pro-tip: throw them away
 
@bwoebi. So you're saying putting everything in a tree is useless?
 
@DaveRandom the problem is not the thing I have to remember, it's the first bit "Just remember" ...
Person A: I can't remember how to drive a car
You: Just drive it ...
that's what you just did ... #justsayin
 
@brzuchal yes. There are situations where it isn't. (e.g. using pointers as a key as these are typically aligned and thus get a bunch more collisions…) But in general, it's useless.
 
1:32 PM
@JoeWatkins Right, but the fact that we are having a conversation about it makes it drastically more likely that you will remember this conversation because it's in the language centre (have link, will find if you care). The association with [citation needed] will be considerably stronger when you have had to respond to a person about the topic than if you had just read it.
It also helps if you repeat things back 3 times
apparently
 
Bit then it would be impossible to cut off the namespaces as a struct from class names in a class_table because tgere will be collisions
 
@brzuchal why would you need to do that anyway?
 
@DaveRandom you have much more confidence in my ability to remember than I do ... and haven't considered that I think I do remember, and consistently get it wrong ... it's not like I'm trying to figure it out, and trying to remember, I think I do, and don't realise I don't until it's gone wrong ...
 
This will be an interesting experiment then :-P
 
but I will try your little experiment, I repeated it a few times, out loud ...
 
1:34 PM
I am experimenting on you without your consent!! bwahahahahaha
 
For fast namespaces compare and for nanespaces modifiers
 
to be fair I get the impression that this is what @Ocramius is doing the whole time
 
Anonymous
@Wes Can you stop doing work and do @bwoebi please
 
Wes
:B
 
@JayIsTooCommon I am already done.
 
Anonymous
1:35 PM
gross
 
@DaveRandom shhhh
 
Wes
:B2
 
@bwoebi for eg private classes and fast namespace comparison
 
These avatars are amazing
 
@brzuchal what exactly do you want to compare in namespaces?
 
1:36 PM
@brzuchal You can use other tables to optimise things like that. The "symbol table" should be based on fully qualified names and contain everything, but there's no reason it has to be the only place and form in which it is stored.
 
Their names
 
Wes
ty, i'm a professional time waster :B
 
And private classes can be just called PublicClassName::PrivateClassName (which won't conflict due to :: not being allowed in class names)
@brzuchal that's what hashes are for.
 
evening room
 
yo
 
1:39 PM
Released: zendframework/zend-code 3.1.0, now with #PHP 7.1 support https://github.com/zendframework/zend-code/releases/tag/release-3.1.0 #zendframework #zf3
 
o/
 
@bwoebi How? Having two zend_class_entry it requires substringing and string comparison
 
@brzuchal wait… you want to compare the names minus the namespace name?
 
Anonymous
@PeeHaa oi
 
Anonymous
4 hours ago, by JayIsTooCommon
So the ideal behaviour for !!undo is delete if possible, if not move to bin ?
 
1:44 PM
@bwoebi having one private class and class which invokes pricate one there is need to extract namespace name from pricate one and extract namespacename from other class name and then compare to check the access to pricate one
 
@JayIsTooCommon Sorry missed that one
 
@bwoebi thats what it is right now
 
Yes.
 
Anonymous
hoki
 
@brzuchal so, you'd just add a field to the zend_class_entry pointing to parent?
and compare the ce pointers
 
1:45 PM
And string comparison is slow and it requires additional resources to malloc for those namespaces
No
 
why not?
 
Private classes are pricate in namespace scope
 
ah
then you can compare the zend_string* pointer of the namespace name given that you intern that.
 
I want to compare ne pointers and be able to check also in subnamespaces to have access in lower level namespaces
 
ah
 
1:49 PM
Tgats the tricky
So is it reasonable to introduce ne for this?
 
Hey guys
 
@brzuchal given that namespace names are usually < 100 chars, I don't see why you can't just do a string comparison though?
 
Do mssql have api which i can use to import mssql database to my own server
 
Then it might be reasonable to wireup functions and constants with ne also
 
I personally am against private classes in general though…
 
1:53 PM
I've got arguments in my previous discussion on internals supporting the idea
I was also thinking of internal php namespace flag and extension namespace type so it wont be able to use in userland
 
Wes
kuvee.com i don't want to live on this planet anymore
 
@brzuchal Just to say, I very much am not persuaded by the need for that structure … just to say, in 99.9% of cases you can determine at compile time whether the class instantiation would pass a private check (basically always when the class name is a literal) and then you'd just need to check if ((opline->extended_value & ZEND_ACC_PRIVATE) || (ce->flags & ZEND_ACC_PRIVATE)). … only for dynamic instantiation that former check needs to be swapped by a substring comparison.
 
@Wes No. Just no.
> Craving something different? Simply eject the wine from your Kuvée Bottle, insert another wine and pour.
...or just pour straight out of the other one. Like it's a regular wine bottle.
 
@brzuchal My problem with private classes is that it sounds very much like a good idea until it isn't.
 
2:04 PM
@Wes I dont understand it
 
But there are people including me feeling there is a need for this especually in big teams 80+ developers where missusage occurs.
 
Wes
@DaveRandom who opens a bottle and doesn't finish it?
 
@bwoebi private as in package private? I'd like that. Helps to expose less from a namespace
 
@Wes Depends what number bottle it is
 
So generally symbol_table as a hash with all symbols is ok. But dont know how about constants yet.
 
2:08 PM
@Gordon fun experiment: Go through some package where you are happy with the namespace layout. Mark classes as private. Find places where your privacy will not work because some sibling namespace needs to reference that thing. Rearrange the project so it would actually work. Come back here and tell me that you still like the layout.
 
@Wes You're Italian no?
 
I have actually done this, it's hard to see why namespace-level visibility isn't as great as it sounds until you try it
 
Wes
yes
 
But namespaces as a struct not especially - which complixates namespaces comparison
 
@DaveRandom (I haven't, but from my experience … I deduct that.)
 
2:10 PM
@DaveRandom I am doing this in Java and it works fine as long as the entrypoint to your package is a single class and the private stuff is internals.
 
@Gordon at that point you can just have as well internal (or just anon) classes
 
@bwoebi I did it a while ago when I was having this conversation with someone else, trying to work out what sane rules for what the visibility modifiers actually mean would be
 
@Wes Would you mind translating a few words for me please?
 
pasta
 
!!it no
 
Wes
2:11 PM
@Fabor ofc
 
!!command map it translate magic
 
Command 'it' is now mapped to Translate # magic
 
!!it no
 
non (translated from Spanish)
 
!!it Chris is a shit
 
2:11 PM
Chris è una merda (translated from English)
 
YES
 
@Wes featured, "more information", price, "daily rate", "long stay", "site map", "our mission", and "submit" please.
 
Chris è una merda (translated from English)
 
:D
 
2:12 PM
!!command map klingon translate magic
 
@Fabor fleischwursto, hähnchenkeulini, biero, schnitzelese, mobiltelefono, jägermeister, feuerwehri
 
Command 'klingon' is now mapped to Translate # magic
 
@Gordon :-D
 
!!klingon @Jimbo has no honour or testicles.
 
pagh pagh testicles batlhlIj muSujmo' @⁠jimbo (translated from English)
 
2:12 PM
Get out @Gordon :P
 
@Jeeves It's funnier when it's about @DaveRandom
 
@Fabor ok ok… you caught me there. here is the correct translations. I promise. it's salsiccia, coscia di pollo, birra, patatine, cellulare, Jägermeister, pompiere
 
!!en salsiccia, coscia di pollo, birra, patatine, cellulare, Jägermeister, pompiere
 
sausage, chicken thigh, beer, chips, mobile, Jägermeister, firefighter (translated from Italian)
 
Wes
2:19 PM
featured => "In evidenza"
"more information" => "Più informazioni"
price => "Prezzo" or "Prezzi" (pural)
"daily rate" => "Tariffe giornaliere"
"long stay" => "Permanenza prolungata"
"site map" => "Mappa del sito"
"our mission" => "La nostra missione"
"submit" => "Invia"
@Fabor
 
!!it more information, price, daily rate, long stay, site map, our mission, submit
 
Ulteriori informazioni, prezzo, tariffa giornaliera, lungo soggiorno, mappa del sito, la nostra missione, presentare (translated from English)
 
Wes
unsure about long stay, if there is a "technical term" i don't know it
that works though
 
Good ol' room 11. As useful as a waterproof towel.
Cheers Wes
 
Wes
yw :P
 
2:20 PM
!!klingon waterproof towel
 
QaDmoHwI' DIr waterproof (translated from English)
 
complaints about Jeeves' accuracy should be directed to Microsoft. Or here
 
they have a word for towel but but for waterproof?
 
Anonymous
@PeeHaa It's like looking in the mirror
 
2:21 PM
It's not a towel then -_-
 
I might scotch guard a random towel at home and wait until someone discovers it
 
heh
 
@JayIsTooCommon You also don't have money for shoes?
 
There's that super water resistant fabric spray I see gifs of
 
Those are porn films.
 
2:23 PM
@Wes Keep pushing for people to change their avatars ;)
 
Where's fapore's avatar :(
 
@Wes What do they have at airports? In English it's a term usually applied to car parks.
inb4 they have planes at airports
 
Wes
i have no idea
 
 
I MUST have that
 
Anonymous
2:26 PM
lol
 
It's be so warm -_-
 
Anonymous
beer proof peeHaa
 
Anonymous
@Fabor What sort of voluntary stuff are you doing?
 
Exactly. No more crying when I pour my drink over my head anymore
 
Wes
@Fabor is it about parking cars? in that case it would be "Lunga sosta"
 
2:27 PM
@Fabor Note how his arms don't get a drop on
 
@JayIsTooCommon Web work ATM. Till Friday then possibly English teaching in Cambodia
@Wes No it's a resort website
 
Anonymous
@Fabor nice
 
Anonymous
Will you be back for PHPUK phpconference.co.uk ?
 
Anonymous
ugh
 
Wes
@Fabor lunga permanenza, but the other one was good too
 
2:29 PM
@Wes ladyboy resort
 
Cheers Wes
 
That the next big one @Jay?
 
While there was indeed one here the other day it's not the specialty.
 
Anonymous
@Sean I think so, still undecided as it's pretty steep
 
2:45 PM
@Fabor I wonder, how do you wash it
 
semen
/lowering the tone as a service
 
way too much effort
 
Anonymous
@DaveRandom @PeeHaa So yours will always be clean too.
 
I reckon I can go lower Chris.
I wonder if you lined your butthole with it you would not need to wipe as much.
 
Fuck this shit (actually not safe for arachnophobes)
@Fabor sold
 
2:53 PM
Also I wonder if buttguns will get popular in the west ever. Like the bidet but easier to install
 
Morning.
 
Morning.
 
Morning.
 

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