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user895378
4:00 PM
@Fabor lol ... I'm unfamiliar with Deadpool ... need to look into it
 
Abe
@LeviMorrison maybe it's just about formalizing the passbyvalue behavior
`local class Array implements ...{}` local means that each instance of it will be `clone`d when passed as argument
unless `&` is used before the argument name, which overrides "local" and prevents the `clone` call
 
@Andrea for allowing [$this, 'somePrivateMethod'] to be used as a callable elsewhere.
If nothing else.
 
@Abe I'd like to burn references, remember? :D
 
Abe
if you turn everything into objects, you don't need references anymore @LeviMorrison
 
user895378
I actually have a small handful of valid use-cases for references (often in tests). If they were burninated I'd have to fake it with a stdclass :/
 
Abe
4:02 PM
the pass by value behavior could be emulated by calling clone implicitly
 
@rdlowrey I wanted to ask, what is it that you do for work and how does PHP come into it?
 
@Danack still possible.
$method = self::somePrivateMethod; $method->bind(...);
or
 
user895378
@NikiC my real work involves scraping public financial data, doing some massaging of it, and repackaging that for sale to a small number of clients
 
$method = $this->somePrivateMethod; $method(...);
 
user895378
@NikiC And I first learned php back in the day to do that because you could use php to "do web stuff"
 
user895378
4:04 PM
But that's mostly automated so most of my time I can spend pursuing all these unrelated projects
 
user895378
All the programming started as a means to further the real work ends but eventually it morphed into the other way around.
 
user895378
And now the real work is a hassle and I'd like to get to a place where I can make money off of programming things.
 
@rdlowrey And then you'll really be rolling in the dough.
 
RespParser is another valid use case for references. :P
 
4:06 PM
@rdlowrey Any plans yet to realize that?
 
Abe
@LeviMorrison makes sense? i don't know internals, but logic might actually work. basically just that local class MyLinkedList implements List{} is going to be cloned automatically when it is passed to another function as argument. basically the same behavior that arrays have
 
user895378
@NikiC I'm not really sure how to go about it, TBH. I've spent the last two years working on this dumb (awesome) server but I'm not really sure how I'd turn that into actual money. I'm more excited about the ability to create startup-type things on top of the aerys stack because it's so easy to use (and does all of the things).
 
user895378
Or will do all of the things in the near future.
 
@rdlowrey Startup things based on Aerys would be nice.
 
user895378
@kelunik that's the real goal. Basically I've come to the conclusion that you can't get rich off of programming. You can get rich off of creating things with programming.
 
user895378
4:10 PM
So I really want to start focusing on finishing these component projects (or getting them to the place where they're legitimately enterprise-ready) so I can start actually making things with them.
 
Anonymous
@rdlowrey Is your aerys (server) on github?
 
user895378
@samaYo it is, but it's a private repo
 
Anonymous
@rdlowrey Is it like Nginx, Apache .. ?
 
ah a small vacation starts for me today \o/ 13 days of sweet freedom
 
congrats
 
4:24 PM
thanks
 
@samayo I think it's more like node (at least based on the performance characteristics that where published)
 
I think I'm a week away from exactly 4 years without a vacation :P
 
That is not healthy.
 
actually no, 10 days away
which is kind of ironic when you consider that's the number of vacation days a typical employee gets :P
 
user895378
@samaYo Well, kind of. It has pretty much all the necessary features as your standard http server but it also does websockets, routing, etc. I basically set out to create exactly what I wanted from a server technology as a developer (and make it as fast as any of the popular node.js frameworks).
 
4:28 PM
@ScottArciszewski =/
 
@rdlowrey Are you going to make it open source or is it going to be the IP of Lowrey Industries?
 
@Orangepill open source, AFAIK.
 
user895378
@Orangepill it'll be open source, I just wanted to keep it closed until the API stopped changing.
 
user895378
Which is largely the case now, we just had to take a detour to stabilize some of the dependencies that make it work.
 
user895378
So I expect to open source it at some point in the next couple of months.
 
4:31 PM
I just open source things and nobody ever adopts them so it doesn't matter if I break the API a million times
 
@rdlowrey and I'm sure with php 7 on the wings it's going to require a fair amount of re implementation of core features
 
Anonymous
@rdlowrey It would be cool to blog about it, just to let people know what to anticipate .. and you'll probably get requests and feedback ..
 
user895378
@Orangepill well, actually it requires PHP7 -- it was built with that release in mind
 
user895378
There are several things in php7 that make something like this really feasible for the first time as more than just a "oh look at this neat thing you can do with php" situation.
 
@samaYo yeah, that's what's probably going to happen when he makes the repo public…
 
4:33 PM
@ScottArciszewski Well, Amp already had more than 140 stars without having a stable API. ^^
 
@ScottArciszewski 10 days, really?
 
@rdlowrey something that cool will probably fast track adoption of php 7...
 
user895378
I'm definitely more proud of that particular project than anything else I've done in my life :)
 
github.com/paragonie <- only one has > 100 stars, but it's not code
 
user895378
4:34 PM
Or I will be once it's "finished," anyway
 
Anonymous
@bwoebi No, I meant before that. Sort of like all the good things we've been hearing about php7 before even the first alpha ..
 
@kelunik Yeah, 2 years at UCF, 1 year at a telecommunications company, 1 year at a shitty startup
I was hired Aug 13, 2011 at UCF
 
user895378
@ScottArciszewski As in Orlando UCF or something else?
 
yep
I'm in Orlando
 
user895378
cool
 
4:35 PM
@samaYo PHP 7 is just a new version of PHP. Nothing spectacular… but even phpng was initially closed.
 
user895378
My little sister graduated from FSU.
 
user895378
I know they're not really close because Florida is freaking enormous. But it's a small connection :)
 
@ScottArciszewski Only 10 days isn't even possible in Germany.
 
well I've had 0 days of vacation for each of the past 4 years
holidays are the worst for me: 1) can't work those days, 2) don't get paid for them, so the end result is financial stress soon after
 
I currently have 5 weeks of vacation but because of work load and no backup I will never be able to take it
 
4:38 PM
:(
a friend of mine is in a similar boat, but mostly because his manager is on vacation right now :\
he's working 20 hour days
 
I typically do 12-16 hr days... the burnout it real
 
I only work 8, but I have a 2 hour commute each way (1 of which is on foot)
 
ouch
 
that's why I'm trying to get paragon rolling so I can quit my dayjob :D
and give myself a damn vacation some time this year or next
even if it's just a week
 
I have a 15 minute walk to work
 
4:42 PM
Is this some kind of American thing?
 
@NikiC Yeah, the no-vacation-country, this was just in the news yesterday.
 
American workers' lives aren't valued
it's worse if you work in retail or food
my roommates resent me any time I complain because, in their eyes, I have it easy
 
user895378
@NikiC yes
 
@ScottArciszewski I hate giving people advice, but if not working for a couple of weeks leaves you in financial stress, this is also not a healthy thing.
 
Anonymous
4:43 PM
@ScottArciszewski I can't believe waiters in America earn like under 5$ an hour. Is that even true?
 
@Danack missing a single day of work during a two week pay period means not eating (but still making bills) the following pay period
@samaYo yeah, because tips
 
user895378
@samaYo It is, but in restaurants here it's expected that customers tip the server ~15% of the bill
 
@samaYo there's a weird tip culture in USA
 
if you don't make enough tips to exceed minimum wage the restaurant is forced to compensate you to that point, but this is usually used as a performance indicator (a.k.a. "who should we fire?")
 
user895378
It's why we have so many restaurants lol ... it's a great business model. Extremely low overhead (very low wages) and extremely low marginal costs (food is cheap).
 
4:45 PM
waiters also have to tip out 1% of the total sales to the back of house and 1% to the manager
so
if a waiter/waitress waits on 20 tables in a night and totals $600, she has to pay $12 regardless of what she was tipped
if she's lucky, she made $180
 
Anonymous
Hm, now I understand why this woman was complaining about.
 
but a lot of people suck
these numbers were from my roommate when she worked at hooters a couple years ago, and I don't know if I'm remembering the specifics right
 
Hello.. Does anyone know what standard input in PHP is?
 
Anonymous
It must be tough to in a job, where your income depends on the generosity of other people :
 
sidenote: when people like Chris Evans who work for Google making six figure salaries with all the benefits in the world get on their soapbox about how people in my situation should handle 0day vulnerabilities, it's really insulting :P
 
4:48 PM
I just don't get it
 
@FaizuddinMohammed file_get_contents('php://input');
 
:-(
 
alternatively, $argv
 
oh.. okay.
 
From a perspective of a German, you're all just nuts and should have quit two years ago
 
4:48 PM
So you basically need files. Thanks. @ScottArciszewski
 
^ yeah, totally.
 
NikiC: in my case, nobody wants to hire me because I'm a "liability"
so I literally have no other choice but to suck it up
 
Why are you a liability?
 
convicted hacker
that's the way a lot of employers are
 
lol
 
user895378
4:51 PM
It seems like that's exactly the person you'd want to hire in this industry
 
HR people don't understand this industry
 
what did you do, non-anonymous disclosure?
 
pretty much
 
@ScottArciszewski That's the problem. People doing the hiring rarely understand the job for which they are hiring.
 
that story is a great irony unto itself for reasons I'd rather not discuss publicly, too
 
4:52 PM
@NikiC context?
 
@ircmaxell people who don't get vacation, or who are owed vacation but can't take it because obligations
 
@ScottArciszewski with how you've been helping the PHP community lately, that will change, I promise you
@ScottArciszewski yeah, that is insane\
 
@ircmaxell how could that help? hiring people usually have no idea… or do they?
 
@bwoebi yes, they do
the mythic HR person in the depths of a giant corporation don't
 
@bwoebi Probably depends on how bad the job is they're hiring for
 
4:55 PM
but that's not often who makes the hiring decisions
that "Move internals discussion to another medium" thread is awesome
 
eventually what's going to happen is I'll finally figure out how to reach the business types rather than the technical types and then I'll claw my way out of this hole
 
@ircmaxell hmm, okay. I have no idea…
 
user895378
@ircmaxell do you mean "awesome" in a sense other than what Merriam-Webster considers "awesome?"
 
(I was born into poverty, if that helps contextualize anything)
 
@ScottArciszewski and you'll figure out how to have the technical types introduce you to the business types
@rdlowrey no. It is awesome because it's a troll-litmus test. Look at who's replying.
 
4:57 PM
@ircmaxell The part where people think how newsgroups are all the rage?
 
oh, yeah, that too I guess :P
 
user895378
@ircmaxell hehehe
 
:-P
 
What exactly is meant with troll-litmus test?
 
to be fair, the whole vacation insanity appears to be randomly distributed rather than concentrated to certain industries
except academia
but that's its own hell
 
user895378
5:01 PM
@ScottArciszewski yeah, I think this is more the tired "Puritan work ethic" problem that's systemic across the US in general
 
user895378
If you go on vacation you're lazy, etc.
 
@rdlowrey Is that just a trick of management to make people work more?
 
I think, aside from people with a severe case of lethargy, "work ethic" is a harmful concept
 
user895378
@bwoebi sure, probably.
 
@rdlowrey You really need laws for that and need clear rules, don't do things like Travis first did and say: "Take the time you need".
 
5:04 PM
yeah, I've been discussing this with robyn for when we get to the point that we actually have to hire people
(robyn => paragon's CEO)
 
an unlimited paid vacation policy with a minimum number of weeks, enforced by cutting off VPN access in december if someone hasn't taken enough time off :P
that's the rough draft anyway
 
unlimited?
 
s/unlimited/open/
 
that sounds a little... prone to abuse
 
5:06 PM
that's a hiring problem
 
it's not very scalable
 
hire people whom are unlikely to abuse your vacation policy :P
 
Morning 11
 
morning PeeHaa
 
@ScottArciszewski I'd just go with 6 weeks, without a open policy.
 
5:07 PM
@PeeHaa UGT doesn't apply to you, it's 7pm where you are
 
user895378
@PeeHaa jo
 
o/ @ScottArciszewski
 
like I said, it's a rough draft
 
@FlorianMargaine :)
 
6 weeks is probably sufficient :)
 
5:10 PM
@rdlowrey jo
 
@ScottArciszewski You know forcing someone not to work when they want to can be just as bad as forcing someone to work when they don't.
 
@Sherif I would agree with that.
 
yeah that's a good point
 
In my experience people, usually, make very reasonable choices when they are given the freedom of choice.
 
You gotta be careful with that
 
5:12 PM
I could be completely off-base with the final decisions we make
 
@Sherif oh?
 
Rational decision finding is hard
 
@bwoebi Well, I said usually
 
some policies haven't even come up yet, i.e. how much maternity leave to offer
 
@Sherif mhm
 
5:13 PM
But if you're hiring the kind of people that don't make reasonable decisions anyway, you have a higher level problem to solve.
 
heh
my goal, should I ever have anyone answer to me, is to do everything I can to ensure they can enjoy a healthy work-life balance and not deal with the crap I'm dealing with
 
maybe my specific ideas are bad
 
I'm just saying, if you don't have a problem with me taking a month off because I've burnt out, you shouldn't have a problem with me spending a week in the office because I'm "in the zone"
 
5:15 PM
God every time I'm on mobile chat I feel like it's '99 all over again
 
@PeeHaa Because that's what we used to do in 1999? Chat on our super sophisticated smart phones?
 
:P
 
I don't know about you, but in 1999 my phone didn't have access to the Internet, let alone some kind of messaging system beyond SMS.
 
@PeeHaa It's not that bad anymore. :P
 
5:17 PM
Even that was iffy.
 
@kelunik I see ping mentions with a nice clickable tag. When I click it nothing happens. Why @balpha why?!?!
 
@PeeHaa where?
 
I just created a sccreenshot, but mobile chat doens't allow me to upload
Will share later...
Semi related. Samsungs screenshot gesture is awesome
 
@PeeHaa Gesture?
 
wait what
with packed strings, bench.php takes vastly longer for the hashing segment
wat
function hash1($n) {
  for ($i = 1; $i <= $n; $i++) {
    $X[dechex($i)] = $i;
  }
  $c = 0;
  for ($i = $n; $i > 0; $i--) {
    if ($X[dechex($i)]) { $c++; }
  }
  print "$c\n";
}
Hmm. Why would that take longer?
hash2 also takes longer
This is weird. Maybe it's mispredicts, but I wonder...
from 0.016s to 13.111s...
I'll investigate this myself, but I wonder if @NikiC might have a hunch
(this is not for a debug build btw.)
 
Anonymous
5:40 PM
does using a type-hinted containers (as in the case of IoC) consume too much memory?
 
@samaYo it'd have some memory impact, but it'll be less bad in 7
 
@Andrea because it constantly needs to rehash?
 
@bwoebi ...oh, right.
Ooh, well
Easy solution would be to use the pointer itself as the hash value
 
Anonymous
I will just go with pimple-esque like solution.
 
@Andrea that could work, as long as you then have the same hash value for zend_string* of sizes up to 7.
 
5:43 PM
@bwoebi you will, almost guaranteed
 
@rdlowrey Yeah you should. Deadpool is the best character in the Marvel universe. Merc with a mouth. Going to be an R rated film.
 
the problem is if a string is shrunk and not reallocated
 
@Andrea I'm talking of that case.
you need a handling to calculate the pointer address that string would have as hash.
 
ah, yeah
Oh yeah, this massively speeds it up
still taking longer overall, hmm
will look into later when I get back. bye!
 
5:51 PM
@ScottArciszewski now
Oh damn wrong screen :p
 
@Andrea May I have your skype account ?
 
You forgot to append "wink wink"
 
smooth
 
Sad story... he didn't
 
5:54 PM
@Sajad really. Have you thought about @DaveRandom's mom instead. Good as new. Warranty til the door
8
 
too many miles
 
@PeeHaa honestly I did not get it.
 
Lol @Orangepill
 
Does anyone know of a websocket implementation that doesn't need a token in the URL (except Aerys)? Is there any reason to use a token in the websocket URL instead of using cookies?
 
@kelunik No reason as far as I know. Cookies should be just fine. Icicle's will work with cookies, but of course it's not ready yet :-D
 
6:00 PM
@Trowski I expect it to take a long time if you want to get a good API without copying one. :P
 
@kelunik I'm thinking of just triggering events on message arrival, but those events can be coroutines.
Promises for messages doesn't seem to make sense.
 
@Trowski Oh yeah, the websocket API will be easier, but even there are some points you have to be careful.
@Trowski Depends if you want to support streaming large things with websockets.
 
@kelunik I was thinking yes, making the actual message body a stream.
 
I think we swtiched to streams for aerys.
 
Anonymous
@Orangepill btw, in the your SO answer, place the document object and the model in the same dir? as in userobject and userdomain together?
 
6:07 PM
@kelunik It's the method that makes the most sense, otherwise someone could send you a series of huge messages and eat all the server memory.
 
@Trowski There are limits for large messages anyway, but yeah.
 
@kelunik Icicle needs a redis client, is that something you'd be interested in making?
 
@Trowski (use an amp bridge ^^)
 
@bwoebi I can, but I'd like a native implementation. Just like I'd like a native MySQL one too.
 
@Trowski it should be mostly just be replacing the primitives and a few callback signature changes?
 
6:12 PM
@bwoebi Mostly. Mind if I use some of your code?
 
yeah, well, with proper attribution. But it'll be double maintenance. You'll have to port every improvement and fix, I'll do.
 
@rdlowrey very good book
 
@bwoebi I realize that, but at least it gives me a base.
 
@Trowski Just use amphp/redis as dependency, you should be able to reuse Redis and RespParser, the clients aren't that much work. ^^
 
Derrik Rethans' entire Amazon wishlist is composed of booze. Hard proof of the toll PHP takes on a person.
12
 
6:27 PM
yup
 
@kelunik For the most part the redis protocol is pretty easy.
 
greeting guys
 
@samayo Generally yes
 
@Trowski Yes, it is, but Redis provides all those abstractions of the raw parameters. You won't have an issue using it until I add a return type hint to Redis::send. ^^
 
terminology question... what is the difference between a Factory and a Provider .. are factories a sub set of providers or does provider point to a specific implementation?
 
6:34 PM
@Charles well…
 
@kelunik Suppose I could just make an adaptor to the Amp reactor and I'd be good to go.
 
Hello guys, I was trying to find a chat room to get an opinion about web development frameworks, I currently know well PHP but I would like to learn one of the following:
1) Django
2) Spring
3) Ruby on Rails

In your opinion which one is the best to specialise with?
 
@Trowski yeah, that's what I was telling you.
 
@PyPiper what do you want to get from learning any of those?
 
@bwoebi Seems a little sacrilegious, since Amp has become my competition. I would prefer to be cooperative though.
 
6:36 PM
@Trowski You could just use Amp and you'd be good to go. :P
 
@kelunik this.
 
@pypiper that would be like a carpenter specializing in a roofing hammer
 
@Danack I would like to be able to develop faster and more secure web applications, and also something that will worth adding to my CV, but I don't have the time to learn all of them
 
@bwoebi I'm not giving up all the work I've put in.
 
@PyPiper you should look at the jobs you want to apply for, and figure out from them what technologies are good to learn...
 
6:38 PM
@Trowski E_EMOTIONAL_ATTACHMENT
 
@Trowski Yeah, I can totally understand that. ^^
 
@Trowski yup, I can understand that ^^
 
Amp was very different, but it morphed to become like Icicle, but I still prefer some of the abstractions I've made.
 
@Trowski Amp's only really dumb thing was passing the reactor around instead of a true global thing.
 
@Danack I don't want at the moment to apply somewhere, I just want to learn a new framework that will be benefit for me, I just want your opinions what would you prefer?
 
6:41 PM
@kelunik Icicle lets you pass the loop around if you want to do weird stuff, but you can just rely on the global loop if you don't care (which 99% of the time you don't).
 
@PyPiper You should learn how to use Spring, just so you learn how bad a mistake it would be to ever take a job that involves spring.
 
@Trowski That's exactly the thing we stopped.
 
Or learn more SQL.
 
@kelunik Reason? Just because it was annoying to pass the loop around?
 
@Trowski no. Because it could lead to weird bugs if you accidentally had two reactors being passed around.
 
6:44 PM
@Trowski That's one point, but the more important point is that it's not possible. If you pass it in some places, you'll end up having two reactors.
And if you pass it around, you have to pass it in everywhere.
 
anyone knows if this is possible without changing the Discourse src or template? (me and Rowan Collins are not fans of infinite scrolling)
 
@kelunik I did it because you can do some interesting things with forking and threads if you can set up multiple event loops.
 
@marcio Probably not if it's the first thing they mention on their main page: discourse.org
 
@kelunik that's a stretch, but possibly right.
 
@Trowski Yeah, we discussed that, but we didn't have a single use case for it so far. We decided to make it easy for 99% of all users.
@Trowski If you want to do that, you need to require the reactor everywhere.
And at that point, the global singleton doesn't make sense anymore.
 
6:51 PM
out of context, to demonstrate something: 🔗
 
@ScottArciszewski nice emoji…
@marcio why not?
 
@bwoebi it makes sense on twitter, but not on a forum IMMO, you can easily miss something important with infinite scrolling when you have many topics. This feature is only nice for media that you frequently "wander".
If it was optional per user, it would be perfect.
 
@marcio well, IMHO, it's either infinite or just one per page. I don't like it when new pages separate context…
 
for the record, I went to Rustlang Discourse instance and marked these options:
Now it's basically a 1=1 match with the current mailing list features we have.
 

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